<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Changes to Assaults"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Changes to Assaults
1) Pistols no longer count as a close combat weapon, instead the charging unit get to fire them before attacks are round but using there WS not their BS (so Orks hit on 3+ tau hit on 5+ etc)

2) Overwatch - Defender can fire Pistols & single shots from Rapid fire/Salvo weapons at the same time and method (WS) as Attackers Pistols. Template weapons stay the same.

3) Tau Supporting fire - hit at BS but don't roll to wound. Each successful hit prevents 1 attacker from pistol attack. If hits exceed targets the attackers count as a disorder charge. All units providing Support fire must be declared together and can not be reassigned if they weren't needed.

4) All CC weapons slotted in to either "Single Handed" "Double Handed" and "Gloves" - you only get +1A if you have 2 single handed or 2 gloved weapons.
Gloved being things like Powerfist/Klaws, Lightning Claws, Crushing claws & Rending Claws

5) Hammer of Wrath becomes a simple +XA instead of impact hits

6) Stomp Worked into a units Attack value

Would this work? If not, how would you adjust?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8543141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8543141.page GMT Changes to Assaults
1) Charge distance is d6+6 or maybe initative. so faster things have a much better chance of getting into combat.

2) overwatch needs to have a draw back like ws penalty if you use it.

3) Pistols can be used in CC using BS. makes taking plasma pistols useful

4) hammer of wrath i think is fine for the most part since its no ap

5) individual power weapons need a rework.
swords should be give you a parry invul save in CC
axes should be AP3 with rending or stance mode where you get unwieldy for ap2
lances really should be ap2 on the charge.
hammers are fine i think

6) CCW prices need andjustments all across the board.

7) you should be able to assault out of non assault vehicles disordered. but reserve rules still apply.

8) MC shouldnt have free ap2. only when using smash.

9) Jump packs should let you attempt a CC attack at flying things. but never lock in combat.

10) you should be able to assault out of outflank. just not deepstrike.

many many many many more changes to think of. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8543169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8543169.page GMT Changes to Assaults
ScarVet101 wrote:
Just a few ideas tweek the Assault phase.

1) Pistols no longer count as a close combat weapon, instead the charging unit get to fire them before attacks are round but using there WS not their BS (so Orks hit on 3+ tau hit on 5+ etc)

2) Overwatch - Defender can fire Pistols & single shots from Rapid fire/Salvo weapons at the same time and method (WS) as Attackers Pistols. Template weapons stay the same.

3) Tau Supporting fire - hit at BS but don't roll to wound. Each successful hit prevents 1 attacker from pistol attack. If hits exceed targets the attackers count as a disorder charge. All units providing Support fire must be declared together and can not be reassigned if they weren't needed.

4) All CC weapons slotted in to either "Single Handed" "Double Handed" and "Gloves" - you only get +1A if you have 2 single handed or 2 gloved weapons.
Gloved being things like Powerfist/Klaws, Lightning Claws, Crushing claws & Rending Claws

5) Hammer of Wrath becomes a simple +XA instead of impact hits

6) Stomp Worked into a units Attack value

Would this work? If not, how would you adjust?



I'm not clear on all of these, but I don't think I'm a huge fan of these.

1) I feel like shooting pistols before assaulting is just called "the shooting phase." Firing a second time in the assault phase using WS (at the end of the charge sub phase?) seems clunky and more complicated than necessary.

2) Nah. This makes overwatch more powerful (eldar would hit on 3's for instance). It also makes overwatch less of a panic fire sort of thing and more of an extra shooting phase that slightly favors melee combatants. Even though it favors higher WS, this actually just makes me want to rely on assault less because my opponent will hit me so much harder than before with overwatch.

3) Would this be instead of the current tau supporting fire? I'm not sure I like it. A ten man fire warrior squad will average 10 hits, which means most relatively elite armies (marines, eldar, dark eldar, harlequins) will be making disordered charges more often than not. I'm also not sure what this is representing. Suppressive fire? Trick-shots knocking pistols out of hands? Seems like it would nerf assault marines as you're likely to generate plenty of overwatch hits to negate their pistols, and your changes mean the assault marines are no longer getting bonus attacks in melee for having the pistol. Also, did you know that Tau have defensive grenades? Serious question. Many people forget about them.

4) I'm not sure why you would do this. It makes things a little more complicated, but doesn't really change much. Most of the "gloved" weapons you've listed already have the specialist weapon rule which more or less does the same thing. I feel like some candidates for "gloed" weapon status (such as harlequins' caresses) don't really deserve to be nerfed by making them unable to grant bonus attacks. Tyranid weapons interact oddly with this because they're already a "pair" of weapons. If any tyranid weapons didn't count as the same type as the others (for instance, if bone swords counted as one-handed rather than gloved), this would only serve to nerf 'nids. And 'nids don't need to be nerfed.

5) Eh. I don't really care for this one either. The +1 attack on the charge we have now already does something similar to what you're proposing. Hammer of wrath attacks are meant to represent attacks that involve brute strength or chariot-style drive-bye attacks. Basically, they're attacks where you're too busy giving the enemy the shoulder to bring your weapons to bare. This allows for unique interactions (like when my pal's orks manage to hammer of wrath my harlies at initiative 10 rather than waiting to be slaughtered first). What you're proposing seems like it would be redundant with other mechanics and take away from the versatility of units.

6) Not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting letting a unit replace some of their attacks with stomp? Or maybe that stomps should be handled at initiative?

Overall, I'm afraid I'm not particularly keen on trying these changes out in my own games. ^_^; What's your reasoning behind these changes? What are you trying to improve or convey with each of these?

@desubot:

1) Personally, I like the idea of keeping charge range as is, but letting players take an automatic 6" charge (4" if going through terrain). So you eliminate those feel-bad moments of failing really short charges, but you retain the ability to try for longer charges as needed. The only thing I dislike about d6"+6" charges is that it ups the average charge range to 9" or 10", which feels a bit much.

2) Honestly, I rarely find overwatch in general to be a huge problem. Sometimes you lose a guy or two. You usually don't lose more than that. The issues I do have with overwatch are specific cases such as tau overwatch, dark angels overwatch, d-scythe overwatch, etc. I think it might be better to address those specific situation rather than weaken it across the board. A couple stray bolter shots hitting me on the way into melee usually doesn't wreck my game. Now losing guys to overwatch and failing a charge as a result is a bit worse, but that can be mitigated with the automatic 6" charge range change that I suggested.

3) Maybe. Feels slightly inelligant somehow. Maybe just change +1 attack from pistols to "Make a single attack with the pistol's weapon profile?" No more elegant than your suggestion, but it seems to be a pretty straight-forward way to let you get a pistol shot off in melee. I might argue that plasma pistols are fine at equivalent points to a plasma gun as they trade potential range and a single shot at close range for the ability to assault after shooting and a bonus attack with another weapon (which can potentially be a really good melee weapon). I might also argue that using WS with a pistol in close combat still makes more sense than using BS as it's less about your ability to aim and more about your ability to line up a shot while people are tackling and stabbing you.

4) Agreed.

5) I like all of these suggestions, though I'm honestly pretty okay with lances as they are. I know; I'm weird.

6) Mostly agree. It's mostly just power weapons and powerfists on non-marines, in my opinion. I can see a power fist on a marine being worth 25 points. A power sword on a guardsman sargeant probably isn't worth 15 point.

7) Sounds good to me. Or just bring back 5th edition rules regarding assaulting if the vehicle hasn't moved when you disembark.

8) I disagree. MCs used to be armorbane and ignore armor back in the day. Then they were reduced to only being good against vehicles if they halved their attack with old smash. Now they only get to threaten vehicles with a single attack using new smash. Making them also only ignore armor with a single attack would just be cruel, especially for those MCs still priced around their abilities from the glory days. This wouldn't be so bad on MCs that can purchase AP2 (or even AP3) weapons, but it's still a pretty severe nerf. Many MCs only wind up with about 3-to-6 attacks, and those same MCs often cost quite a few points. Unless you really feel non-shooty tyranid MC's Should bounce off of power armor alongside wraith lords and daemon princes. I think a keeper of secrets with your suggestion kills something like a measly 2 marines on the charge with your suggestion.

9) I'm fine with this. My Swooping Hawks already have this, and I'd be fine with other jump packers getting it too.

10) I like the idea of this (possibly letting things assault out of normal reserves too), but I worry that the potential charge range might be a bit much. In 5th edition, assaults out of reserves just meant your opponent had to be careful to stay 13" from the board edge (max charge threat range was 12"). Now, a normal infantry unit potentially threatens 18" from the board edge (averages 13"), and outflanking beasts/jump packs/assault transport units threaten something like 24" with an average of 19". Which seems a bit much. Maybe mix this with my minimum charge range suggestion to limit such charges to 6"? It still lets you pick on units near the edge and make your opponent sweat, but it doesn't let you pull off a 19" charge in your opponent's backfield with outflanking thunderwolves. Actually, fleet means the T-Cav would average something like 21".



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547344.page GMT Re:Changes to Assaults MC's being stock ap3 in combat, as it would then also help to boost 2+ save models, which in general are in a desperate need of a boost right now. (really, the only "good" 2+ saves are of the Tau variety)
However, I'd also add a single ap2 'Stomp' attack to all MC's in their base rules, which strikes at I1 & can only be used against Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts/Swarms. Likewise, I'd change up how GMC's similar mechanic works, and remove the Str.D aspect from it. (though they can obviously Stomp any target, except another GMC or SHV!)

Close combat reliant MC's typically have access to ap2 upgrades anyways, (at least, Daemons do - Tyranids likely need some options here!), which would mean that they're far less hurt by a slight ap nerf than other MC's...
However, I do agree that things like Riptides should not be able to effortlessly dance their way through most units in general - especially the likes of elite assault based unit such as Terminators, who's armour is famed for being able to survive all but the most catastrophic of hits! (for feth's sake, it's a dedicated shooter! it should be ****ing terrified of getting caught by the likes of Terminators & similar!! )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547591.page GMT Changes to Assaults
ScarVet101 wrote:
Just a few ideas tweek the Assault phase.

1) Pistols no longer count as a close combat weapon, instead the charging unit get to fire them before attacks are round but using there WS not their BS (so Orks hit on 3+ tau hit on 5+ etc)

2) Overwatch - Defender can fire Pistols & single shots from Rapid fire/Salvo weapons at the same time and method (WS) as Attackers Pistols. Template weapons stay the same.

3) Tau Supporting fire - hit at BS but don't roll to wound. Each successful hit prevents 1 attacker from pistol attack. If hits exceed targets the attackers count as a disorder charge. All units providing Support fire must be declared together and can not be reassigned if they weren't needed.

4) All CC weapons slotted in to either "Single Handed" "Double Handed" and "Gloves" - you only get +1A if you have 2 single handed or 2 gloved weapons.
Gloved being things like Powerfist/Klaws, Lightning Claws, Crushing claws & Rending Claws

5) Hammer of Wrath becomes a simple +XA instead of impact hits

6) Stomp Worked into a units Attack value

Would this work? If not, how would you adjust?


1. Pistols are fine as is. Pistols tend to be fired in the shooting phase then they charge in for melee combat, seems silly to shoot once in the shooting phase and then again in the melee phase. Seems like it would require a lot of rules revisions and adjustments to balance things in each codex to fix a mechanic that works fine as it.
2. Standard overwatch isn't all that problematic honestly. Tau overwatch is a different story but they basically do all their close combat damage in overwatch then die horribly when the melee combat occurs.
3. I have no idea what this is suppose to do. Is this suppose to be like suppression fire or something? Defensive grenades negate charge bonus attacks and Fire Warriors already have this.
4. For the most part Gloves = Specialists weapons for Imperial weapons. Too much reworking for no real significant change. Current system works well enough.
5. HoW is generally meh but its great vs hard to hit gak like invisible units. Hammer of Wrath would just be Rage with this change.
6. Maybe something like trading 3 attacks to make a stomp. Lets you pick between swinging your melee weapon / punching and/or stomping. Getting a bunch of melee attacks and then being able to stomp D3 times is currently a bad mechanic for the smaller LoW like WK, IK, Stormsurges, etc.

Edit:
 Desubot wrote:
Eh would rather start with

1) Charge distance is d6+6 or maybe initative. so faster things have a much better chance of getting into combat.

2) overwatch needs to have a draw back like ws penalty if you use it.

3) Pistols can be used in CC using BS. makes taking plasma pistols useful

4) hammer of wrath i think is fine for the most part since its no ap

5) individual power weapons need a rework.
swords should be give you a parry invul save in CC
axes should be AP3 with rending or stance mode where you get unwieldy for ap2
lances really should be ap2 on the charge.
hammers are fine i think

6) CCW prices need andjustments all across the board.

7) you should be able to assault out of non assault vehicles disordered. but reserve rules still apply.

8) MC shouldnt have free ap2. only when using smash.

9) Jump packs should let you attempt a CC attack at flying things. but never lock in combat.

10) you should be able to assault out of outflank. just not deepstrike.

many many many many more changes to think of.


1. I think instead there should be a the option to make a flat charge distance (say 5") or risk the 2d6" charge. Initiative base would be a nerf to the Orks who already suffer with swinging last against most enemies. Faster units generally have things like fleet.
2. The most painful overwatch is either Tau which this does nothing (WS 2 across the board), or Dark Angels which this would be rough for. Might not be a bad change honestly but it universal flat WS/BS modifiers tend to hurt some factions more than others so im not a fan of them.
3. This hurts the Slugga/Stormboy. It would make those plasma pistols more interesting. Maybe give the option to shoot it in CC.
4. HoW is fine if a bit lacking. Would be nice if Furious Charge would benefit HoW.
5. Seems reasonable. Lances should add a HoW hit at +2 Str at AP3 then drop down to a weaker +1 Str AP 4 profile for their standard melee attacks. Axes are fine as they currently are.
6. Very true, the points cost for power weapons and bigger are really dated.
7. Needs a bigger penalty than disordered but yes assault from standard transports should be a thing.
8. Remove Smash from the base MC rules but then give it to MCs on a case by case basis.
9. Not sure how to make it work well without ruining flyers. Maybe a vector strike type action in the movement phase? I like to see something of this nature happen
10. At this point assault from outflank should be a thing. Maybe have some penalty similar to assaulting out of a non-assault transport.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547739.page GMT Re:Changes to Assaults http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684901/8547799.page GMT