<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant So here's the issue, I'd like to create my custom chapter based around these two elements:
- They would have the same color scheme as pre-heresy World Eaters (white with blue backpacks and pauldrons)
- They would be savage close combat adepts with a lot of chain weapons (including axes), so... just like the World Eaters

So of course, instead of saying this is purely incidental, I would have like to link their background to the World Eaters.
I understand that for obvious reasons, you cannot simply say a chapter is a successor of a traitor legion.
However, I read some stuff saying that some loyalists from traitor legion may have been absobed by the Grey Knights or that Blood Ravens had been formed by loyalists from the Thousand Sons.
What's true in all this?
Would it be reasonable to imagine that a handful of loyalists WE remained after the heresy? That they would be used a basis for a new chapter?
Also could someone explain simply how a new chapter is founded? I.e. what "geneseed" is used, where does it come from?

Thank you for your insight and explanations ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660516.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
TyberosTRW wrote:
Okay, so I've already looked around a bit and I already got some elements of answer but, I'd like to clarify some things.
So here's the issue, I'd like to create my custom chapter based around these two elements:
- They would have the same color scheme as pre-heresy World Eaters (white with blue backpacks and pauldrons)
- They would be savage close combat adepts with a lot of chain weapons (including axes), so... just like the World Eaters

So of course, instead of saying this is purely incidental, I would have like to link their background to the World Eaters.
I understand that for obvious reasons, you cannot simply say a chapter is a successor of a traitor legion.
However, I read some stuff saying that some loyalists from traitor legion may have been absobed by the Grey Knights or that Blood Ravens had been formed by loyalists from the Thousand Sons.
What's true in all this?
Would it be reasonable to imagine that a handful of loyalists WE remained after the heresy? That they would be used a basis for a new chapter?
Also could someone explain simply how a new chapter is founded? I.e. what "geneseed" is used, where does it come from?

Thank you for your insight and explanations


There were loyalist elements that survived from some if not all of the traitor legions, but really only a few handfulls. There is rumour that some of their geneseed may or may not have been invovled in the creation of the GK but its more likely that it was from the big E, the survivors themselves certainly did not BECOME GK.

Rumours of a few chapters being successors of traitors do exist like you mention but nothing has been confirmed in concrete and it most certainly would not be acknowledged publicly as they would never be allowed to carry on.

In short, yes you could have a successor chapter decended from the traitor legion, its very rare and it would be held in total secrecy from the authorities.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660542.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660555.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
TyberosTRW wrote:
What "officially" happened to remaining loyalists originated from traitor legions? Were they purged? Or maybe included in other loyalist legions?


I belive all record of the traitor legions where purged from Imperial archives. only the highest ranking members of the IoM even know the details of the heresy. I suspect any surviving loyalists if they where assmbled into their own chapters, deliberatly had the records lost. it'd just be... easier that way. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660566.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660570.page GMT Re:Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
Others just say why not run the blockade at Isstvaan? The Eisenstien made it so any other group may have. Plus there could have been splinters doing things in other systems.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660622.page GMT Re:Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
Use your imagination and some suitable loophole could be found for your boys.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660630.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
Call them the Star Killers and change the logo slightly to a maw eating a starburst.
Then wheel out a relic suit with Ultramarine heraldry (and prominent chain weapon damage ) as evidence of their Provence.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8660767.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant WE. The fluff is that their founder is unknown, but with their honour and brutal assault thing going on they're very similar, so consider doing them instead.

Actual answer: Use the fluff that usually makes people suspicious about a chapters founding. Make it one of the popular ones (i.e. ultramarines) so the ministorum doesn't ask any questions, and if they do get very, very angry and defensive.

And yes, pockets of loyalists within a legion did exist. Maybe a company of WE didn't particularly care for Angron and Horus so they abandoned them when no one was looking and became blackshields or reported back to the Imperium, and with the whole civil war thing going on a new chapter, and thus more marines, would be helpful.

p.s. The geneseed usually comes from the founding legion, or in this case I suppose extras from a wealthy chapter or maybe a whole new batch is made.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668188.page GMT Re:Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
There's also a theory that the Ultramarines greater numbers is from the loyalists that wish to throw off their now considered heretical heraldry.

Others just say why not run the blockade at Isstvaan? The Eisenstien made it so any other group may have. Plus there could have been splinters doing things in other systems.


Actually, the Horus Heresy novels pretty much confirm, with no specifics of course, that one of the lost legions was folded into the Ultras after their Primarch met his fate. That's why they had such greater numbers back then. I haven't heard anything about traitor legionaries joining them right after the heresy. As for all their successors though, some of them are a little... suspect, as people have already pointed out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668211.page GMT Re:Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
 fallinq wrote:
 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
There's also a theory that the Ultramarines greater numbers is from the loyalists that wish to throw off their now considered heretical heraldry.

Others just say why not run the blockade at Isstvaan? The Eisenstien made it so any other group may have. Plus there could have been splinters doing things in other systems.


Actually, the Horus Heresy novels pretty much confirm, with no specifics of course, that one of the lost legions was folded into the Ultras after their Primarch met his fate. That's why they had such greater numbers back then. I haven't heard anything about traitor legionaries joining them right after the heresy. As for all their successors though, some of them are a little... suspect, as people have already pointed out.
Except it's the exact opposite and is just two Word Bearers, who wouldn't know a thing about Ultramarine operations, shooting the gak about a legion they don't like. ADB had to repeatedly state that their conversation confirms absolutely nothing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668362.page GMT Re:Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
jareddm wrote:
 fallinq wrote:
 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
There's also a theory that the Ultramarines greater numbers is from the loyalists that wish to throw off their now considered heretical heraldry.

Others just say why not run the blockade at Isstvaan? The Eisenstien made it so any other group may have. Plus there could have been splinters doing things in other systems.


Actually, the Horus Heresy novels pretty much confirm, with no specifics of course, that one of the lost legions was folded into the Ultras after their Primarch met his fate. That's why they had such greater numbers back then. I haven't heard anything about traitor legionaries joining them right after the heresy. As for all their successors though, some of them are a little... suspect, as people have already pointed out.
Except it's the exact opposite and is just two Word Bearers, who wouldn't know a thing about Ultramarine operations, shooting the gak about a legion they don't like. ADB had to repeatedly state that their conversation confirms absolutely nothing.


Indeed. it's basicly at best conspiracy theorying the only way a HH book would CONFIRM this is if we had a novel where a UM character reflects on his own Legion and remark something along the lines of "Gulliman was very differant from his primarch of old"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668391.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
Also could someone explain simply how a new chapter is founded? I.e. what "geneseed" is used, where does it come from?



There is exactly one thing that is definite about where chapters come from. The gene seed comes from the mechanicus vaults, they take one set, enough to make one marine, and copy it a thousand times. That's really the only published aspect of new chapters that is explicit.

There are some chapters that have been mentioned as being honored to aid in founding new chapters. So these could be tutors in the very many skills that the new chapters would need.

There is also the very big exception of the Sons of Medusa, which happened when a third of the iron hands and two thirds of the iron hands decided that each part hated the other part.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668673.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
Even ones from the Ultramarines, like the Hawk Lords, have the same colour scheme as Traitor Legions (purple and gold, in this case).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668684.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
 Crazyterran wrote:
Silver Skulls, Blood Ravens, Storm wardens, Minotaurs, and a few others (I don't remember them).
.



if you're trying to claim they're from a traitor legions gene seed it's only theory at best. and in many cases not terriably strong theory. the theory of the silver skulls for example makes little sense considering that the guy people had been theoprizing is now dead.

we know the gene seed of the traitor legions wasn't destroyed but rather sealed under a time locked vault. I've got a personal theory that the time locks opened up around the 35th or 36th millinium. and where used for the 13th founding. this is why records of those foundings are basicly sealed.

My personal theory is the Blood Ravens are indeed a 1k Sons sucessor. but they are not a second founding chapter. but a 13th founding (the first records for them date back to the 37th M. although there is evidance they existed for at least a few centuries before that. so being 13th founding would fit) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668713.page GMT Re:Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
So basically, you could do it, but A) It can't be known to anyone, maybe even just some dark rumors by unsavoury people or some vague similarity to something long ago that a traitor legion used B) It would likely be the Cursed Founding so they would likely have some hidden geneseed issue, and C) It would have to be done in an extremely subtle manner versus being blatant, e.g. no painting them identical to World Eaters and calling them the Planet Devourers and their chapter master is named Madron or some nonsense like that, because that wouldn't be taken to very well.

What you would be basically looking at is the combat doctrine, some behaviors/visual appearances, and maybe some fluff inclusions from the traitor geneseed but it has to be done overtly. Maybe they don't use those nail things (that would be heresy) but perhaps something similar along the same lines, to help "enhance their combat prowess" but draws a parallel to the WEs of old. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8668797.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant
TyberosTRW wrote:
Also could someone explain simply how a new chapter is founded? I.e. what "geneseed" is used, where does it come from?

Ok, what do you know about how a relatively normal human adolescent becomes a Marine? Specifically the nineteen implants that enhance him physically and mentally, and allow him to interface fully with his suit?
The nineteenth implant is actually two; the Progenoid glands. Each one stimulates the other implants to shed a few cells, which it collects and packages into new gene-seeds to create the implants for the next generation of Marines.
Thus each Marine can nominally be used to create two more, those two make four, and so on, as long as you can find enough likely young athletes.
Combat losses and natural wastage generally means that each chapter has just about enough seed on hand to replace losses, plus a little. Technically each Chapter is obliged to submit a tenth of their harvested gene-seed to Mars for testing and archival purposes, though not all chapters are exactly punctilious in this duty.

So, when the High Lords consent to the foundation of a new Chapter, they turn to the Martian archives of tithed geneseed to create the first generation. Generally it is preferred that one source-chapter be used to create the new one, for technical reasons the Magos Biologis will happily talk your ear off about (and then offer to replace it with a new, better ear) if you let them, but the archives almost never have a thousand Progenoids ready so they must be reproduced.

Unfortunately the only way to do this is by creating implants, putting them in a human, and waiting 5-10 years for the new Progenoids to mature. This laborious process is done entirely on Mars, where clones and prisoners are used to create the new organs. Unfortunately for the prisoners who are mostly adults, they won't become Marines but instead will be subject to a decade of agony and madness whilst their bones twist and split, their muscles bulge and snap under their own weight, and their eyes and ears are ripped out and replaced, all whilst locked in a glass tube to make sure they don't wander off and waste the precious gene-seed by dying somewhere inconvenient.
Anyway, it's about as metal and messed-up a process as you'd expect from Warhammer really, so it's on theme at least. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8669515.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8669515.page GMT Loyalist successor of traitor legion remnant http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8669615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691146/8669615.page GMT