<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC CC?

Here's what I'm proposing:
WS 1 2 3 4 5 Auto Miss
To Hit 6 5 4 3 2 1

WS 6 7 8 9 10
ReRoll 6 5 4 3 2

Then give everyone a parry or dodge chance but not both. THESE SAVES CANNOT BE REROLLED - NEW
Parry - Which is the same table, but the defender rolls if they score a successful hit on the parry the deflect the hit.
WS 1 2 3 4 5+ Auto Miss
To Hit 6 5 4 3 2 1

If that hit lands, they roll they can roll their armor save.

Dodge - Initiative roll - same sort of table - roll to hit the dodge, if succesful the hit was dodged.
Init 1 2 3 4 5+ Auto Miss
To Hit 6 5 4 3 2 1

If that hit lands, they roll they can roll their armor save.

Lastly - because you're all damning this proposal already - invulnerable saves cannot be taken against close combat. It makes no sense that a force field bubble works when someone gets inside of it.

Think about it.
This change gives a wider variety of units the chance to take part in the close combat phase. It allows units with terrible armor saves a chance to not be annihilated in cc. It gives value to units that have high WS. It also helps units with high Init to get a save in because they usually have a poorer armor save.

Ultimately It makes combat more fun because both players are actively involved in both the players phases of CC.

The best memories people have are epic battles in close combat. This allows more units to be viable in CC and lends itself to amazing battles.

Think of the benefits this would grant to walkers! They'd actually get a save.

Obviously it makes the game longer. but i don' think by much. Just use the same dice. The opponent rolls to hit you. You pick up his hits and roll your dodges or parry's. What ever is unsaved,he icks up and rolls wounds. You grab the successful wound dice then you roll armor saves.

This also helps to alleviate D close combat attacks as you could parry or dodge the attacks before the opponent rolls on the d table.

Could even modify stomps with this. All units get to roll to dodge a stomp, roll the dodge roll for whom ever is under the stomp, if they are successful. They would dodge the stomp and stay locked in combat.

Perhaps you could implement rules that modify dodging and parrying vs MCs and GCs, W and SHW that would reflect their strength/size. Against MC, GC Walkers and SHWs, you can only make dodge rolls. Conversely they can't dodge, unless they are fighting their own "class". So MC's and Walkers to roll to dodge attacks from other MC's and walkers. GCs and SHW could not roll to dodge against attacks from MC's and walkers but could roll to dodge against attacks from other SHW or GCs.

All I'm saying is that if close combat was more interactive and more units were reliable and could contribute to CC, you'd see more of them. It could then be worthwhile for some armies to actually build CC lists, because close combat would be more effective and units more survivable, if you didn't shoot them off the table you'll be ruined in CC with a pure shooing list.


Lastly it actually makes more sense for someone with WS 6 vs WS 2 be able to do something other than just get to hit on 3s but worse yet, terrible CC units only get penalized with hitting on 5s.

Your thoughts?

-Updated - no longer reroll dodges and parry - best save is 2+]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8714917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8714917.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
One, that's a lot more rolls you're adding to each game.

Two, there are units that already have invulnerable saves that are supposed to represent 'dodging' in the Dark Eldar and Harlequin codexes that would need to be re-written.

Three, from the perspective of a Harlequin player, this system would basically mean that nothing hits my Solitaire in CC, ever...

...so I'm all for it! I can't imagine other armies will be best pleased, though.

I like the general idea of tying initiative to some kind of dodge save in melee, but I think it may be better to implement it as getting an optional cover save in melee depending on the difference between your initiative and your opponents:

+1 Initiative = 6+
+2 Initiative = 5+
+3 Initiative = 4+
+4 Initiative = 3+
+5 or more Initiative = 2+

It doesn't add any extra rolls as you're either using this save or your armour save, and is fairly well representative of just how difficult it would be to fight in melee against someone who is absurdly faster than you are. Just an off-the-top-of-my-head idea, though.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8715313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8715313.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
 Robin5t wrote:
I see a couple of issues.

One, that's a lot more rolls you're adding to each game.

Two, there are units that already have invulnerable saves that are supposed to represent 'dodging' in the Dark Eldar and Harlequin codexes that would need to be re-written.

Three, from the perspective of a Harlequin player, this system would basically mean that nothing hits my Solitaire in CC, ever...

...so I'm all for it! I can't imagine other armies will be best pleased, though.

I like the general idea of tying initiative to some kind of dodge save in melee, but I think it may be better to implement it as getting an optional cover save in melee depending on the difference between your initiative and your opponents:

+1 Initiative = 6+
+2 Initiative = 5+
+3 Initiative = 4+
+4 Initiative = 3+
+5 or more Initiative = 2+

It doesn't add any extra rolls as you're either using this save or your armour save, and is fairly well representative of just how difficult it would be to fight in melee against someone who is absurdly faster than you are. Just an off-the-top-of-my-head idea, though.



I think that your point about the Solitaire is well taken. But as I indicated, he doesn't get a 3++ in close combat. Under my system the Solitaire hits and parrys and dodges hits on 2s - Point taken - removed rerolls

I see now. I think it would also be reasonable to say that any effects that decrease or increase WS and I would apply when making these saves. So a whole host of rules could be made that affect WS and I. Someone like Kharn whose special rule was hitting on 2s could have that rule changed to he reduces WS or Init of opposing squad by x amount.

Removing the re-rollable saves on dodges and parrys tones it down a lot and is probably the best course. So the best save you get is 2+ if your WS is 5+ or I is 5+ - removed reroll from initial post

With that removed. Under this system everyone hits more often, and everyone gets a least 1 save regardless of armor values. And it makes combat more realistic. What this also does is removes re-rollable invulnerable save shenanigans.

How this affects each army:

Necrons have bad initiative but WS4 so they would only parry attacks at a 3+ then get their on average 3+ save and RP of 5 or 6 - they are going to be just as tough as before - because remember these saves apply to everyone. Where they get shafted is that they can't parry attacks against MC/Walkers/GC/SHW. So they'll only get to dodge on a 5+. Their 3+ save will be negated by AP2 attacks and their RP will be -1 because the weapon will most likely be str10.

Tau are hit hard but Kroot get better. Tau's army wide WS2 and I2 mean that they'll only ever hit and parry on 5s and dodge on 5's. They'll have to rely on armor saves. Maybe more kroot will show up on the table.

Nids get a big boost as many of their close combat units have WS5 and I5. Many of their elites will have poor dodge and parry saves but they mostly seem to have bad armor saves so at least they a few saves before their armor is negated. Genestealers WS6 and I6 makes them much better as their armor save is 5+. Hormaguants I 5 gives them a save as well. Overall Nid players would love this

Space Marines and Chaos Marines get substantially tougher - Their all hitting, parrying and dodging on 3's - which gives them some recourse when fighting against AP3 weapons. Terminators become that much better because They'll get all those saves on 3+ and have a 2+ armor save - I could see a return of terminators here.

Skitarii / cult mech - Nice boost here becuase of their toughness 3. They have WS and Init 4 - so 3+ saves and hitting on 3s.

ORKS - Get a huge boost from these rules - All their HQ's are WS4/5 and Init 3 with a few 4s. Their armor saves are generally between 6+ to 4+. Same goes for pretty much most of the army, horrible armor saves and no real system that aids them in CC, when they are supposed to be pretty decent in CC. So they actually get some saves in most scenarios because their armor is going to be ignored.

Harlequins - get crazy tough but again, no invuln in CC. So their going to be dodging and parrying on 2+ and hitting in CC on 2+ - but that makes sense fluff wise. Their also expensive. Might see more of them on the table now that they are more survivable.

Eldar and Dark Eldar - The real kicker here is that they both got much tougher. Great news for Dark Eldar - but Eldar also get that bonus with army wide I5. Hope that the allure of better close combat units would lead to diversified eldar lists. Which i could because of the poor armor saves that eldar usually have.

Guard players and Inquisition/ Sisters - Should love this as their armor saves are terrible - but their general WS 3 and I 3 gives them a chance at a 4+ save before a 5+ armor save.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716675.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716716.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC WS is that it doesn't take into account your enemy. Flat rolls are easy to work with but should it really be just as simple to dodge or parry a clumsy swing from a Fire Warrior compared to, say, a Space Marine Captain or Howling Banshee Exarch?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716743.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
 =Angel= wrote:
With respect, this seems more suited to necromunda or killteam level engagements, where combat is a bit drier with less dice rolled.


I don't play either so I can't comment on that.

I can see how people think its exponentially more rolls, but it really isn't. Example:
You roll 50 dice to hit.
You 40 of them hit.
I pick up those 40 and roll my dodge or parry save.
I save 20.
You pick up the unsaved dice and roll to wound.
You wound 15
I pick up the successful wounds and roll armor saves.
I Roll 10 armor saves and take 5 models off.

Right now its almost the same minus the extra roll.
You roll 50 dice to hit.
You 40 of them hit.
You pick up the succesful hits and roll to wound.
You wound 15
I pick up the successful wounds and roll armor saves.
I Roll 10 armor saves and take 5 models off.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Robin5t wrote:
The issue I have with basing it purely on your own unit's initiative and WS is that it doesn't take into account your enemy. Flat rolls are easy to work with but should it really be just as simple to dodge or parry a clumsy swing from a Fire Warrior compared to, say, a Space Marine Captain or Howling Banshee Exarch?


I would think it does.

Why? That space marine captain with WS 6 is hitting on 2's or rerolling 1s and hitting those on 6s - where as the firewarriors can parry but the chance of them parrying on a 5 isn't that good.

This actually make combat like a real fight. Not just me hitting you and wounding you and you not doing anything back when I take a swing.

It makes a battle with an enemy with better inititiave not as one-sided just because they get to go first.

You could potentially not die and get to fight back because his higher initiative attack with ap 3 weapon doesn't necessarily kill you right away.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716800.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
With the way you have it worded, Bob the Guardsman is treating an attempt to parry or dodge a Gretchin exactly the same as an attempt to parry or dodge Abaddon the Despoiler, which doesn't really make sense to me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716815.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
 Robin5t wrote:
I think you may have misunderstood my issue - I don't have a problem with the idea of parry or dodge mechanics and I do agree with some of your points, however, I feel that any parry or dodge roll should be weighted against the enemy you're trying to parry or dodge.

With the way you have it worded, Bob the Guardsman is treating an attempt to parry or dodge a Gretchin exactly the same as an attempt to parry or dodge Abaddon the Despoiler, which doesn't really make sense to me.


I can understand that but what I'm also trying to do is simplify things by using linear tables.

Special character rules or things like fear could have added benefits. Fear for example could make those Dodge and Parry rolls only successful on 6s or disable one of those saves from being made.

A General rule could be: Characters and ICs whose WS or Init is double your model, you could not make that kind of save. Which would take into account their immense skill. But that wouldn't work against other Characters and IC's]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8716830.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
Basically, using entirely linear tables makes it completely impossible to account for the vast variations in speed, skill and ferocity between the many different units and characters in the 40k universe. No fight happens without taking into account the enemy's ability.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8717010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8717010.page GMT Re:Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
Taking your example of a guardsman vs a marine.

The marine runs up and hits first because I4 vs I3. Under this system he effectively swings at the guardsman successfully on a 3+. That guardsman then attempts to dodge that swing on a 4+ or 50% chance to dodge. If the guardsman fails he's hit and that marine wounds that guard on a 3+. That guards armor is a 5+ save. so hes dead.

If that guard did dodge the marine attack. At his initiative step, he swings at the marine on a 4+, the marine dodges on a 3+ and even if that marine fails that dodge hes wounded only wounded on a 5+ and even if that wound happens he gets a 3+ armor save.
So That guard will be highly unlikely to hurt that marine. While that marine has a good chance to killing that guard in 1 round of combat.

That Harlequin vs the marine - the Harlequin should kill the marine every time. She'll strike first, she hits on 2+, has 4 attacks on the charge so its likely all 4 go through. She'll probably roll one 6 and get an 2 AP attack. That marine who is a super human, gets to dodge or parry those attacks on a 3+. If those attacks go through the marine is wounded on 4s because the Harley has furious charge. And the marine get a 3+ save....

Hmm this does prove problematic after outlining the scenario.
++stream of consciousness warning++
What if the defending model could only dodge or parry equal to the number of base attacks they have???? So that guard couldn't dodge 3 attacks a space marine gets on a charge because that guard has 1 attack base. He'd only get 1 dodge chance....
Hmmm.. 15 attacks from a 5 man marine squad. Charges a 25 man guard infantry platoon. Wouldn't be base to base contact with all of them. Perhaps only those in base to base would get to dodge / parry....marines extra wounds would still spill over...could argue surrounding guard were not aware of those errant chainsword swings due to the din of battle....that could work....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8718689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8718689.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC WS + Attacks, each roll of 4+ is a hit. Defender rolls WS + Attacks, negates a hit on 5+. Certain abilities might lower the number needed to succeed or raise it. It would be a lot of dice throwing, but close combats would be over in a hurry.

This would make close combat EXTREMELY deadly, but might give it a much-needed bump against ranged combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8719355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8719355.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8725390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8725390.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8768638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8768638.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
 HANZERtank wrote:
I don't like the idea of no invulnerable saves in close combat. I get your argument of power fields and that, but what about things like storm shields that are designed to protect you in close combat. Or invulnerable saves granted by uncanny reflexes, or being able to perceive a few seconds into the future to dofge blows.


I vaguely remember someone saying that a storm shield works exactly like a shield generator. Something along the lines of how you can have a SS and multiple CQC weapons (not sure if that is true or not) or a 2h weapon and a SS, because the shield bubble would still protect you even when strapped to your back, or something like that?

Also dodges could always be made into CQC specific cover saves. Ignores cover could be given to the weapon of some special snowflake character who's "sword never misses", like a CQC heat seeking missile ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8768725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8768725.page GMT Changing To Hit Roll and saves in CC - TRULY EPIC CC
 hippyjr wrote:


I vaguely remember someone saying that a storm shield works exactly like a shield generator. Something along the lines of how you can have a SS and multiple CQC weapons (not sure if that is true or not) or a 2h weapon and a SS, because the shield bubble would still protect you even when strapped to your back, or something like that?


Quite the opposite. The Storm Shield itself is a huge block of metal but it is energised to resist attack. The shield ONLY provided a 4++ save in close combat as it was 'too small to be of use against ranged attacks'- up until new Terminator models dropped. At this point the invuln save was upgraded either to reflect the models' increased shield size or to sell said models, take your pick.

It's the combat shield that grants a 5++ which is small enough to use with pistols and swords in the same hand.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8781405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/693873/8781405.page GMT