<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "[1500/1850] - Black Legion - Sorceror's Coven"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net [1500/1850] - Black Legion - Sorceror's Coven I'd been reading Ahriman: Unchanged, and just liked the idea.

I'm not trying to produce an ITC-shattering competetive tournament-winner, but I wouldn't mind not getting tabled every game; so ideas are welcome. At the same time, I don't want to change the basic concept of a pure sorceror's coven.

Since that idea about a year ago:
~ I've now actually saved up the funds to do it.
~ The Black Legion supplement has given us access to the Cyclopea Cabal, which lets me take this as a battle-forged force, and gives gives sorcerors the ability to spend a small amount of warp charge to access impressive firepower at range (depending on your opponent).
~ The Traitor's Hate supplement has given us access to four new psychic disciplines, which appear to be moderately awesome
~ The Gaunt Summoner model means there is a plastic disc of tzeench I can use.

The idea was to fit in 9 Tzeenchian Sorcerors because fluffiness. To make matters even more appropriate, there are now 9 psyker disciplines a sorceror can choose from - the intention is to have one sorceror model converted to imply each discipline. Either they'll all be on a gaunt summoner's disc, or they'll each be on something different (like a 'broken, floating stairway' for the Geomortician)

At 1500:

Cyclopea Cabal
Pyromancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Biomancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Telepath - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Malefic Daemonologist - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Sanctic Daemonologist - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar

Cyclopea Cabal
Sorceror - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Heretech - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Ectomancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Geomortician - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, The Mark Of Tzeench, Aura Of Dark Glory, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar

It's not an amazing force - because I only get one power from each discipline (plus Force, one random Tzeench power and Tzeench's Firestorm), but it might be interesting to try.

The list gets a lot more capable at 1850 points:

Cyclopea Cabal
Pyromancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar, Boon Of Mutation, The Last Memory Of Yuranthos
Biomancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Telepath - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Malefic Daemonologist - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Sanctic Daemonologist - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar

Cyclopea Cabal
Sorceror - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Heretech - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Ectomancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar
Geomortician - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, The Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Disc Of Tzeench, Spell Familiar


I'm happy to hear any suggestions on changing the sorceror's equipment (the only way I can see to free up more points at 1500 is to either drop some invulnerable saves or spell familiars - if so, on which ones?), or on tactics - critically what sized blobs to maneuver around in; with every model an independent character, I can freely join or break up units as I see fit. I can move and turbo-boost pretty freely, so should have the speed to react if needed, but I know I won't be able to tollerate much incoming fire - it'll depend on what blessings I get.

Theoretically, of course, in the perfect game, the telepath, heretch, sorceror and biomancer combine and the unit is only hit on snap shots, is T6, has a rerollable 3++ save and feel no pain.
Then there's every other game, where on turn 1 a culexus assassin pops his head up from behind a tree and I spend the rest of the game running away like a flock of startled tzeenchian pidgeons.


I'm not sure as to the Force Weapons I should be taking. I'm guessing a mix of everything would probably be best - my default assumption would be a combination of Force Axes and Force Staves.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Insults?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8899155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8899155.page GMT [1500/1850] - Black Legion - Sorceror's Coven
The somewhat obvious one is dropping MoT at 1500 and counting the discs as bikes. Saves a bunch of points and gets you both another roll on the table of your choice and the primaris. But that probably breaks theme too much for your liking.

Perhaps designate certain sorcerers as tanks and aim to have them catch bullets, gearing them up accordingly and skimping on defence on others? Certain sorcerers won't be doing much casting, some powers will be more critical than others **cough** telepathy caster **cough** and some have certain risks of failure.

The sanctic caster could make an excellent tank since unless he gets hammerhand or sanctuary, he's not going to contribute much, and if he does get sanctuary, yay, he's a better tank.

The other thing to consider is how you're going to kill stuff. Your mass of I4 attacks at WS5 should be enough to deal with a lot of things, considering they get 5 attacks each on the charge plus hammer of wrath. Vehicles should be the same, but walkers will have to be priority #1 since they'll strike at the same time as you and double you out too.

Overall, it's a fantastic off the wall idea and I love it, but an army with only 18 wounds just isn't going to work in modern 40k. Except for when you roll invisibility, then you have a chance. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901469.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901469.page GMT [1500/1850] - Black Legion - Sorceror's Coven
If nothing else, 3 cabals of 3 would be more pleasing to tzeentchian sensibilities.

True. I was wondering about Shroud Of Deceit. On the one hand, that would give me a 3rd use per turn, but on the other I'd only be getting 2 free warp charge....
I guess what the hell, as you say, it's far more elegant.

The somewhat obvious one is dropping MoT at 1500 and counting the discs as bikes. Saves a bunch of points and gets you both another roll on the table of your choice and the primaris. But that probably breaks theme too much for your liking.

Might be worth a look. I don't mind a counts-as when its universal - my main problem with the idea is that dropping the disc to a bike does cost you an attack, but also seriously drops your turboboost speed. Most importantly, you lose a point of save - without Mark Of Tzeench, I'd probably bin the Aura of Dark Glory too - a 5++ save is a little to unreliable for my liking and you might as well just jink.

Perhaps designate certain sorcerers as tanks and aim to have them catch bullets, gearing them up accordingly and skimping on defence on others? Certain sorcerers won't be doing much casting, some powers will be more critical than others **cough** telepathy caster **cough** and some have certain risks of failure.

That's a fair comment. The toughest you can make a sorceror reliably (i.e. without relying on non-primaris powers) is Sigil Of Corruption, The Mark Of Tzeench and Crucible of Lies, which is a 3++ save, rerolling 1s. That's pretty good - and with a disc/bike he's still T4 and you can always look out S8 stuff.

The other thing to consider is how you're going to kill stuff. Your mass of I4 attacks at WS5 should be enough to deal with a lot of things, considering they get 5 attacks each on the charge plus hammer of wrath. Vehicles should be the same, but walkers will have to be priority #1 since they'll strike at the same time as you and double you out too.

Agreed. Theoretically I can avoid walkers, but yes, I'll need to hope for a decent spread of anti-tank powers. Fortunately, against AV12-13, Bolt Of Change isn't too slack an ability, and Ectomancy and Heretch both have haywire witchfires.

Alternate 1500 point version:

Cyclopea Cabal
Pyromancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar
Biomancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar
Telepath - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar

Cyclopea Cabal - Designated 'tanks'
Malefic Daemonologist - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 2, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar, Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Crucible Of Lies
Sanctic Daemonologist - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar, Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Boon Of Mutation
Sorceror - Chaos Sorceror - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar, Mark Of Tzeench, Sigil Of Corruption, Boon Of Mutation

Cyclopea Cabal
Heretech - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar
Ectomancer - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar
Geomortician - Chaos Sorceror - Mastery Level 3, Chaos Space Marine Bike, Spell Familiar


but an army with only 18 wounds just isn't going to work in modern 40k. Except for when you roll invisibility, then you have a chance.

I think if it's going to work, it's going to mostly require tau-esque tactics; I can, in theory, pop out, drop witchfires, and turbo-boost away again. I'll need to use terrain to minimize incoming fire if I can.

I know invisibility is ridiculously good - there is an argument for ignoring any attempt at balance in the force and just taking multiple telepaths. But there are other powers out there with similar nastyness. I hope.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901659.page GMT Re:[1500/1850] - Black Legion - Sorceror's Coven
I realise that isn't the idea you're going for but consider how many points you can free up if you don't have to spend points on invulnerable saves because you have blobs of ablative wounds to hide your guys in.

Alternatively (and also quite fluffy) you could take the spawn formation a couple of times. That way your sorcerers are still the only sentient models in the list, but you have fast ablative wounds, and sorcerers + spawn fits the background well ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901764.page GMT Re:[1500/1850] - Black Legion - Sorceror's Coven
 Snake Tortoise wrote:

Alternatively (and also quite fluffy) you could take the spawn formation a couple of times. That way your sorcerers are still the only sentient models in the list, but you have fast ablative wounds, and sorcerers + spawn fits the background well


Unfortunately the spawn aren't a formation that can be taken outside of the black legion detachment, same way you can't just slot a unit of deathmarks in from the necron dex. Unless you want to go unbound, but nobody wants to open that can of worms. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8901921.page GMT [1500/1850] - Black Legion - Sorceror's Coven
Unfortunately the spawn aren't a formation that can be taken outside of the black legion detachment, same way you can't just slot a unit of deathmarks in from the necron dex. Unless you want to go unbound, but nobody wants to open that can of worms.


I'd happily consider unbound, but as noted would much, much rather take a battleforged army. I'm not really sure how to make it work.

To be honest, the best thing to do is probably to get some proxies and try it a couple of times to see.

Ultimately, there may be an argument for sticking to a relatively few disciplines - with only one power each rolled on a discipline of my choice in the 1500 point version, getting invisibility (for example) isn't easy.

I'm just worried that going telepathy until I get invisibility, then sinistrum until I get reroll saves, or whatever, is going to leave me catastrophicaly short of actual zappy powers.

Besides which, trying to use invisibility and blobbing up leaves me struggling to contest objectives, and only able to fling a single firestorm (compared to 9 if I broke formation).

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8902060.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702320/8902060.page GMT