<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ? CSM formations from TH and if you had tried any of them.

I'm strongly pulled by the idea to use a Warband formation and the Fist of the Gods formation, but then there are some questions popping in my mind:

1-Should I use on of the supplement rules, and if yes, which (BL or CS) ?
--> BL has some good artifacts, and some good formations also, but CS can give fear to everyone...

2-In the Warband formation, should I go for the chosen or the terminators ?
-->Chosen can bring nice meltas to the table, but termies can bring in a LR.

3- Are marks still useful or only a waste of points now ?

4-Havocs or Helbrute ?

5-Are there any other formation that are worthwhile apart from FotG and if yes, in which combination ?
-->I must say, the idea of an Iron Warriors 40k has always been alluring in my mind.

What are your opinions on the latest formations and do you have any ideas for tactics or did you play any of them ?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8909089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8909089.page GMT Re:New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ? SM use black legion, if not use CS. Hellbrutes are a pretty useful addition, especially with objective secured, they are also reasonably priced.

Recently I have been trying out the lost and the damned and it has been great in objective holding games, terrible in purge the alien and maelstrom of war. I useually use 40 CC cultists and run them towards the enemy while noise marines with blastmasters thin out enemy lines. Which I find is a pretty fun list.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8909144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8909144.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ? votlw.
Termies or chosen are both not amazing.If you are trying to optimise, i'd got with combi-plazma min squad of termies without any transport.
Marks are still useful on some units. MoN Chaos Lord on bike is t6, MoN spawns are also t6 and make a good retinue. MoK might be good on a lord for an Axe of Blind Fury.

As for the otherformations, they all need playtesting. I've tried termicide formation but failed miserably due to no scatter mitigation and no reserve manipulation. Won the game thanks to obsec band and spawns. Yep, you cannow spam solo nurgle spawns - auxilaries are unlimited.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8909166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8909166.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ?
 Warzoner wrote:
Hi people, so I wanted to have your opinion on the last CSM formations from TH and if you had tried any of them.

I'm strongly pulled by the idea to use a Warband formation and the Fist of the Gods formation, but then there are some questions popping in my mind:

1-Should I use on of the supplement rules, and if yes, which (BL or CS) ?
--> BL has some good artifacts, and some good formations also, but CS can give fear to everyone...



Well if you're using a crusade detachment you could make that vanilla and then use the supplements on formations where you think they would help. The same is true if you're just taking individual formations.

 Warzoner wrote:

2-In the Warband formation, should I go for the chosen or the terminators ?
-->Chosen can bring nice meltas to the table, but termies can bring in a LR.



Termies can bring a Land Raider, but you really don't want our land raider in an age where armour value means nothing. Either bring some (3-4) suicide terminators with melta or mabye plasma or bring chosen. Only bring chosen though if you have a dedicated role for them in mind.

Their also not a waste of points like some people like to think. 10 basic marines, 5 chosen or plague marines all cost roughly the same amount of points. Of these plague marines are the toughest with built in fearless, T5 and fnp, despite only having 5 wounds total compared to the vanilla marines. Blight grenades help them survive enemy charges too.But they still only have 2 specials.
Chosen can have 5 specials for the same cost. They're the squishiest but they hit the hardest, and they still bring as many attacks as a 10 man csm unit on the charge (with bolters).
With free VotLW they all get 10 LD. Although only the chosen have 10 all around, which makes virtually no difference.

So chosen if you want a more alphastrikish unit (they can get a dedicated dreadclaw if you have IA13) or plague marines if want somebody to sit on an objective. Termies if you want a cheap unit that can maybe pop a tank and then soak some enemy fire before they die.

 Warzoner wrote:


3- Are marks still useful or only a waste of points now ?



For the most part it will be a choice between nurgle and slaanesh + banner for fnp. Tzeentch only makes sense if you want a 3++ on an HQ or you have a unit sitting on a landing pad for a 3++ and khorne is really only for dedicated assault units, so you'll probably only have one or two units where it would make sense. Lord plus retinue for example so he can benefit from the units banner for furious charge and reroll to charge range.

 Warzoner wrote:

4-Havocs or Helbrute ?



This one isn't obvious with ObSec. Normally havocs, but they just sit there, a helbrute can move around and isn't likely to be a priority target so should survive quite well. And good luck moving it off of an objective without bringing some anti tank like a powerfist/melta bomb on a sarge. So this depends on the rest of your army. If you don't need the long range support you'll probably be just fine with a helbrute instead of havocs.

 Warzoner wrote:


5-Are there any other formation that are worthwhile apart from FotG and if yes, in which combination ?
-->I must say, the idea of an Iron Warriors 40k has always been alluring in my mind.

What are your opinions on the latest formations and do you have any ideas for tactics or did you play any of them ?


The Black Legion and Traitors hate daemon engine formations are ok. Though I prefer the BL version. It's cheaper and a BS5 forgefiend is pretty decent.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911372.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ? CAD, you want Crimson Slaughter. Paying for VotLW sucks hard.
2. Terminators are the strictly superior choice. They don't need as much investment. A minimum Combi-Plasma squad is 112 minimum and adding another dude is only almost 40 points for 8 Plasma rounds to the face. Chosenot require too much investment for their offensive profile and therefore aren't worth the time and effort.
3. MoN is still pretty good, and MoK/MoS aren't as bad of investments thanks to the free VotLW.
4. Havocs are the better choice because everything else in the list will move around. Helbrutes have better movement but not by so much that it will ever matter.
5. The Terminator one has much potential as Chaos Terminators running and shooting are better than Loyalist counterparts attempting the same thing. Raptors got a decent boost too. I also like the one where you get to bring 5 Maulerfiends. Can't make all of that fit in 1850 though! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911689.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ?
 Warzoner wrote:


1-Should I use on of the supplement rules, and if yes, which (BL or CS) ?
--> BL has some good artifacts, and some good formations also, but CS can give fear to everyone...

2-In the Warband formation, should I go for the chosen or the terminators ?
-->Chosen can bring nice meltas to the table, but termies can bring in a LR.

3- Are marks still useful or only a waste of points now ?

4-Havocs or Helbrute ?

5-Are there any other formation that are worthwhile apart from FotG and if yes, in which combination ?
-->I must say, the idea of an Iron Warriors 40k has always been alluring in my mind.

What are your opinions on the latest formations and do you have any ideas for tactics or did you play any of them ?


1. Fear is pretty worthless, and no VotLW eliminates almost all of the special characters along with a reasonable part of the bonus for taking the Warband, so unless you really want divination or Daemonheart, then vanilla / black legion is the way to go. Alternately, for your Auxiliary, they don't get the same benefits, so free fear might actually be more worthwhile.

2. 3x Terminators, 3x combi melta or plasma, 112 points of obsec annoyance. They can be used to pop a tank or grab/deny an objective that you wouldn't otherwise be able to get to. Don't bother wasting points on a land raider.

3. MoN or nothing is still as true now as it was at Codex release 4 years ago. There are some exceptions, though they are few and far between.

4. If you are going vehicle heavy, Helbrute, otherwise 5 havoks with 4x autocannons should be the first choice most times, though you can make a reasonable argument for lascannons.

5. Raptor Talon is one that stands out, but it'd be nice as an addition to a CAD since it really wants a fortification for a comms relay, though if you do go crimson slaughter primary for the balestar, there's a 50/50 shot at scriers gaze. If you want iron warriors, the cult of destruction could work and the more oblits you take, the less the warpsmith tax costs per obliterator.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911703.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ?
Drasius wrote:The cult of destruction could work and the more oblits you take, the less the warpsmith tax costs per obliterator.

There is a caveat though. A unit of 3 oblits plus a smith puts out the same amount of shots as 6 oblits for cheaper. However, 6 oblits can shoot the same gun, while the equivalent cult would fire 3 and then would have to switch. The cult also has to fire at the same unit unlike the 6 oblits. On the flipside, they don't take up any heavy slots.
Just food for thought.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. The Vanilla codex gets better formations. Strictly CAD, you want Crimson Slaughter. Paying for VotLW sucks hard.
2. Terminators are the strictly superior choice. They don't need as much investment. A minimum Combi-Plasma squad is 112 minimum and adding another dude is only almost 40 points for 8 Plasma rounds to the face. Chosenot require too much investment for their offensive profile and therefore aren't worth the time and effort.
3. MoN is still pretty good, and MoK/MoS aren't as bad of investments thanks to the free VotLW.
4. Havocs are the better choice because everything else in the list will move around. Helbrutes have better movement but not by so much that it will ever matter.
5. The Terminator one has much potential as Chaos Terminators running and shooting are better than Loyalist counterparts attempting the same thing. Raptors got a decent boost too. I also like the one where you get to bring 5 Maulerfiends. Can't make all of that fit in 1850 though!


Not sure what you mean by vanilla gets better formations? Any vanilla formation an be taken by either supplement. Including the previous dataslate formations.
I disagree that termies are strictly better. A 4 man plasma-cide costs about the same as a unit of chosen with 4 plasma, trading a 2+/5++ and power weapons for twice the amount of attacks and being able to sweep. And grenades, sweet sweet grenades. On their own like that Terminators get the better deal. But chosen can get a dedicated dreadclaw or a rhino and can fire those plasmas multiple times. That allows them to start working on turn 1 without risking mishaps or not making their reserve roll. Their also less exposed.

If you can make your reserve and deep strike rolls work, then sure, take two units of termies instead, but I'll stick to chosen. They've proven to be more reliable than termies for me.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8911845.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ?
Roknar wrote:
Drasius wrote:The cult of destruction could work and the more oblits you take, the less the warpsmith tax costs per obliterator.

There is a caveat though. A unit of 3 oblits plus a smith puts out the same amount of shots as 6 oblits for cheaper. However, 6 oblits can shoot the same gun, while the equivalent cult would fire 3 and then would have to switch. The cult also has to fire at the same unit unlike the 6 oblits. On the flipside, they don't take up any heavy slots.
Just food for thought.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. The Vanilla codex gets better formations. Strictly CAD, you want Crimson Slaughter. Paying for VotLW sucks hard.
2. Terminators are the strictly superior choice. They don't need as much investment. A minimum Combi-Plasma squad is 112 minimum and adding another dude is only almost 40 points for 8 Plasma rounds to the face. Chosenot require too much investment for their offensive profile and therefore aren't worth the time and effort.
3. MoN is still pretty good, and MoK/MoS aren't as bad of investments thanks to the free VotLW.
4. Havocs are the better choice because everything else in the list will move around. Helbrutes have better movement but not by so much that it will ever matter.
5. The Terminator one has much potential as Chaos Terminators running and shooting are better than Loyalist counterparts attempting the same thing. Raptors got a decent boost too. I also like the one where you get to bring 5 Maulerfiends. Can't make all of that fit in 1850 though!


Not sure what you mean by vanilla gets better formations? Any vanilla formation an be taken by either supplement. Including the previous dataslate formations.
I disagree that termies are strictly better. A 4 man plasma-cide costs about the same as a unit of chosen with 4 plasma, trading a 2+/5++ and power weapons for twice the amount of attacks and being able to sweep. And grenades, sweet sweet grenades. On their own like that Terminators get the better deal. But chosen can get a dedicated dreadclaw or a rhino and can fire those plasmas multiple times. That allows them to start working on turn 1 without risking mishaps or not making their reserve roll. Their also less exposed.

If you can make your reserve and deep strike rolls work, then sure, take two units of termies instead, but I'll stick to chosen. They've proven to be more reliable than termies for me.


I'm unsure on how that works, but the core formation is strictly for the Vanilla codex as the Black Legion pays for their VotLW and Crimson Slaughter can't have it.

Shall we really compare 5 Chosen with 4 Terminators?
1. Twice amount the attacks, but no power weapons. Getting either Power Mauls or Axes will make them strictly better against most targets, and more importantly better against targets that actually matter. Yeah more attacks do better against Guardsmen. And? Mauls ID them.
2. Assault Grenades are unnecessary when you carry Axes anyway (sweet I1), and with Mauls you're getting more Krak attacks (plus S5 isn't bad against vehicles melee-wise anyway).
3. If you're talking about the Dreadclaw, a massive footprint model that doesn't even get Drop Pod accuracy and can eat one of your dudes every 6 games and costs a little less than a 3-man Termicide squad, as a benefit and a good point for Chosen, that's really stupid. I don't honestly know why you'd even bother to bring that up as though it were a selling point. I really don't.
4. When are 5 T4 3+ dudes that cost 150 points ever going to fire their guns again? You might as well save points and go for Combi-Plasma on them anyway. That at least saves points for maybe another meat shield or even another Combi-Weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912066.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:
Roknar wrote:
Drasius wrote:The cult of destruction could work and the more oblits you take, the less the warpsmith tax costs per obliterator.

There is a caveat though. A unit of 3 oblits plus a smith puts out the same amount of shots as 6 oblits for cheaper. However, 6 oblits can shoot the same gun, while the equivalent cult would fire 3 and then would have to switch. The cult also has to fire at the same unit unlike the 6 oblits. On the flipside, they don't take up any heavy slots.
Just food for thought.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. The Vanilla codex gets better formations. Strictly CAD, you want Crimson Slaughter. Paying for VotLW sucks hard.
2. Terminators are the strictly superior choice. They don't need as much investment. A minimum Combi-Plasma squad is 112 minimum and adding another dude is only almost 40 points for 8 Plasma rounds to the face. Chosenot require too much investment for their offensive profile and therefore aren't worth the time and effort.
3. MoN is still pretty good, and MoK/MoS aren't as bad of investments thanks to the free VotLW.
4. Havocs are the better choice because everything else in the list will move around. Helbrutes have better movement but not by so much that it will ever matter.
5. The Terminator one has much potential as Chaos Terminators running and shooting are better than Loyalist counterparts attempting the same thing. Raptors got a decent boost too. I also like the one where you get to bring 5 Maulerfiends. Can't make all of that fit in 1850 though!


Not sure what you mean by vanilla gets better formations? Any vanilla formation an be taken by either supplement. Including the previous dataslate formations.
I disagree that termies are strictly better. A 4 man plasma-cide costs about the same as a unit of chosen with 4 plasma, trading a 2+/5++ and power weapons for twice the amount of attacks and being able to sweep. And grenades, sweet sweet grenades. On their own like that Terminators get the better deal. But chosen can get a dedicated dreadclaw or a rhino and can fire those plasmas multiple times. That allows them to start working on turn 1 without risking mishaps or not making their reserve roll. Their also less exposed.

If you can make your reserve and deep strike rolls work, then sure, take two units of termies instead, but I'll stick to chosen. They've proven to be more reliable than termies for me.


I'm unsure on how that works, but the core formation is strictly for the Vanilla codex as the Black Legion pays for their VotLW and Crimson Slaughter can't have it.

Shall we really compare 5 Chosen with 4 Terminators?
1. Twice amount the attacks, but no power weapons. Getting either Power Mauls or Axes will make them strictly better against most targets, and more importantly better against targets that actually matter. Yeah more attacks do better against Guardsmen. And? Mauls ID them.
2. Assault Grenades are unnecessary when you carry Axes anyway (sweet I1), and with Mauls you're getting more Krak attacks (plus S5 isn't bad against vehicles melee-wise anyway).
3. If you're talking about the Dreadclaw, a massive footprint model that doesn't even get Drop Pod accuracy and can eat one of your dudes every 6 games and costs a little less than a 3-man Termicide squad, as a benefit and a good point for Chosen, that's really stupid. I don't honestly know why you'd even bother to bring that up as though it were a selling point. I really don't.
4. When are 5 T4 3+ dudes that cost 150 points ever going to fire their guns again? You might as well save points and go for Combi-Plasma on them anyway. That at least saves points for maybe another meat shield or even another Combi-Weapon.


Any csm detachment or formation can also be a BL and/or CS formation. These are csm detachments and formations. For BL you just need to take VotLW where it is an option, and since it's free that's pretty easy to do. CS may not have units with VotLW, meaning the decurion doesn't much help them, but it's still optional in the decurion. So you can still use CS. Just not the favoured formation since that requires a DP.

1+2. Read again, I was agreeing with you. Grenades and sweeping is nice, but power weapons are better yet. Assuming you get to charge the appropriate unit anyway.
3. That's why I said two units at the end. Like you said a unit of chosen + dread is roughly the same as 2 units of termis. ObSec chosen with an ObSec claw have worked much better for me than termicides. Though more often than not I'll take flamers on chosen in that case, because mass flamers are awesome. Terminators could get it too, but only as a fast attack, which you can't do with formations. Unless you take it as a dedicated, which works for chosen.
4. I don't about you, but my chosen almost always get to fire multiple times. Especially if you put them in a rhino for driveby shooting, which just isn't an option at all with termies. Hence why having that option could make them more interesting than terminators.

I'm not saying chosen are better, but they a valid alternative to termies as long as they have ObSec. Terminators have the potential to do more damage, but because of how you have to deepstrike them and get the reserve roll that rarely happens in my experience. The claw also can mishap but you can just drop somewhere safe and fly to where you want to be. You still have the option of a riskier drop. I dunno, might be because I usually take a juggerlord with axe and people have other things to worry about, but it's worked for me.
Both have ObSec in this case, but how often would you actually termicide within 3 inch of an objective? Chosen are more likely to make use of ObSec and have the option to take dedicated transports and make those ObSec too. Our Land raider on the other hand is just a paperweight at this point, ObSec doesn't make up for that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912155.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ? 3. A Dread still does not have deep strike accuracy, and with two squads of Terminators you get twice the chance to hit anything important. Target saturation + multiple strikes makes this a better decision literally every time. Also yes they can spam Flamers but who cares? We can get that from the frickin Raptor formation if we want, and they definitely don't have any accuracy with Deep Strike just like your Chosen will. You seem to keep forgetting that the Claw doesn't have Inertial Guidance. When a model has that large of a footprint, Deep Strike is a rule that is not meant to be used.
4. Rhinos are garbage unless they're free. So chances are someone will pop the Rhinos, let your Juggerlord kill something real quick, and then move onto the Juggerlord. He strikes hard but isn't particularly hard to kill. At all. Also if you're getting back in the Claw you get another chance to have a guy eaten. So that's once again a silly bad move.

OS is nice for anything, but Chosen will continue to remain garbage until they get price cuts on their equipment and get rules outside of...nothing. They will never be a valid alternative against Terminators and we shouldn't be spreading false information that they are.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912201.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ?
Roknar wrote:
Drasius wrote:The cult of destruction could work and the more oblits you take, the less the warpsmith tax costs per obliterator.

There is a caveat though. A unit of 3 oblits plus a smith puts out the same amount of shots as 6 oblits for cheaper. However, 6 oblits can shoot the same gun, while the equivalent cult would fire 3 and then would have to switch. The cult also has to fire at the same unit unlike the 6 oblits. On the flipside, they don't take up any heavy slots.
Just food for thought.


Yes, and said warpsmith must be within 8" IIRC to give them orders (somehow managing to be worse than guardsmen despite having a vox built into their helmets and armour). Not to mention that the benefit is lost is the warpsmith dies. Food for thought indeed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912413.page GMT New CSM formations with Traitor's Hate - Opinions and tactics/ list building ? DS mitigation; the only way to seriously give Deep Strike/Null any consideration would be any "Multiple solo Obliterators" gimmick, where you either bank on Cursed Earth or summoning a few Icons here and there. Either way, I'm not particularly buying it.

Chaos was long overdue for Obsec bikers either way. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/702765/8912725.page GMT