<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Damaging Vehicles"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Damaging Vehicles HPs to giving vehicles armour saves.
The main issues I would like to address are A) Glancing vehicles to death shouldn't be so easy & B) High Str/Low rate of fire weapons should be relevant again
I also want to do this in an way that does NOT require a massive errata that updates exist unit entries. I want vehicle statlines to remain as-is

So to start, Glances will no longer automatically cause HPs but rather roll on the chart -1. Pens automatically cause a HP in addition to the effects of the chart below.
Combined this with making AP1 add only +1 and be the only AP to modify the roll,
then change the chart to:

1 - No other effect
2-3 - Crew Shaken
4 - Crew Stunned
5 - Weapon Destroyed (also loses an HP*)
6 - Immobilized (also loses an HP*)
7 - Explodes

*If a vehicle is already Immobile & suffers another Immobilized or has no weapons when it suffers a Weapon Destoyed, it simply suffers the HP associated with the result with no other effect.

So now the only reliable way to kill a vehicle is by Penatrating it, or rolling a 6 from a Glance (5+ if AP1, 4+ if AP1 & Open-topped)
This would kill 2 birds with 1 stone; Glances no longer auto-strip HPs & Single shot High Str weapons can potentially cause 2 HPs (1 for the initial Pen, 1 more if a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized is rolled)

Thoughts?
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 curran12 wrote:
How do haywire reliant and gauss using armies kill vehicles?

Haywire is a USR, so you can make it ignore the -1 for glancing, or make it Pen on an 5+, or both.
Guass is a bit more tricky (since I'd like this overall change to occur in the BRB only), but you could also make a note in the vehicle rules that Gauss also ignores the -1 for Glances.

I played Necrons back before HPs existed and when you needed a Glancing 6 to kill vehicles and even then Necrons were considered THE anti-vehicle army. So I don't think it'll be an issue for them.

-]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8948963.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8948963.page GMT Damaging Vehicles
Why penalize ap1 or ap2 weapons?

Also keep in mind how this would make SHVs (read: knights) much stronger then they already are. I'm assuming that they ignore immobilized effect but still suffer HP's, that means that every glance only has a 1/3rd chance of doing any damage vs SHV, which are rampant (at least where I play).

IMO the better way to change it would be mitigating the ability to force vehicles to snap fire, or transfer that ability to effect MC's/GMCs as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949167.page GMT Damaging Vehicles SHVs would still ignore the affects of the chart, but would still take HPs from Pens, Immobile & Weapon Destroyed results.

I am not trying to penalized AP2/AP1, just have it make sense. 2=1 & 1=2 messes with my OCD. It is perfectly fine for AP6-2 to exist for the purpose of negating Amour saves. Since AP1 is redundant for negating armour saves, its bonus is for vehicles, hence it should be the only AP to get +1 to the chart.
I see the current game design as given AP2 weapons a bonus because GW wanted to make 7 the explodes result and Lascannons, Bright Lances etc needed a chance to pop a vehicle in 1 shot.
However, that is one of the complaints is that vehicles can be popped in 1 shot. By only allowing AP1 weapon to get Explodes results (or if the vehicle is open-topped), most vehicle will have to be "hulled out" and can only reliably be done so by weapons that can Pen.

So to recap:
- Penetrating hits automatically cause the loss of a HP, then roll on the chart
- Glances only roll on the chart with -1 to the roll, only inflicting the loss of a HP if the result rolled includes that
- 2 of the results of the chart also cause the loss of a HP (so 2 HPs are lost if the hit was Penetrating).
- This means that Glances can only achieve the Explodes result if the weapon is AP1 & the vehicle is Open-topped

-]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949230.page GMT Damaging Vehicles
What if Crew Shaken made vehicles fire at -1BS (to a minimum of BS1, so blast weapons can still fire), and only Crew Stunned forced snap shots? That would make Extra Armour worth taking more often, at any rate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949242.page GMT Re:Damaging Vehicles
"Glancing hits roll on the vehicle damage table, but any result of "Explodes!" instead causes the player to roll two additional times, applying modifiers to the roll just as if the rolls were caused by the same weapon. These additional rolls may result in more Explodes results, requiring further rolls. If a vehicle becomes immobilzed and loses all of its weapons, it is destroyed. If a vehicle would suffer more than one Crew Stunned or Crew Shaken result in a turn, upgrade that result to a Weapon Destroyed result instead. If a vehicle would suffer a Weapon Destroyed result when it no longer has any weapons, upgrade that result to an Immobilized result instead."

Otherwise, leave the system the same. So in this way, even a glancing hit from Fire Dragon against a close by open-topped vehicle can still hull it out, but you can only strip a vehicle bare. In this way, Gauss and Haywire still function.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949244.page GMT Damaging Vehicles HPs.

I think since Immobilized & Weapon Destroyed results would now cause additional HPs, there is no need to say that and Immobile vehicle with no guns is destroyed. Just let it take more HPs.

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 Galef wrote:
I kinda like where you are going by not allowing Glances to inflict Explodes results. I might make it simpler by saying that Glances that result in "Explodes" results do not suffer the effects of "Explodes" but instead inflict the loss of D3 HPs.

I think since Immobilized & Weapon Destroyed results would now cause additional HPs, there is no need to say that and Immobile vehicle with no guns is destroyed. Just let it take more HPs.

-

I forgot that this was the case now. Yeah, so long as those results still cause HP loss, it'll still work fine. Still testing is required - because man, some big stuff gets seriously seriously more powerful with an adjustment like this (looking at you Leman Russ tanks!).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/704768/8949298.page GMT Damaging Vehicles HPs were introduced was the fact that you could still effect vehicles (mostly be Shaken or Stunned results) even if you couldn't kill them.

My goal here is 3-fold:
1) To reduce the "glance it to death" tactic of just stripping HPs
2) To make "anti-tank" weapons relevant again
3) Bring back vehicle "suppression" tactics

Hopefully this will create a balance between the current HP stripping tactics and older editions in which vehicles did not die unless they explode. A happy medium if you will.
In the example of the Leman Russ, sure you may not be able to destroy it as quickly, but you can make it Snap-fire a lot more since even Glances roll on the chart. Necrons and armies that rely on Haywire will become masters of vehicle suppression tactics.

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