<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists)

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List
Playing a small campaign with a group of friends, which starts at 1000 points and slowly adds 500 points every month or so.
Opponents seem to be; Sisters of Battle, Eldar, Farsight Enclaves, Imperial Guard Armoured, Tyranids maybe and Grey Knights

List:

Sternhammer Strike Force

Core
Demi-Company

Captain - 120 points
Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

Assault Squad - 135 points
5 men, Jetpacks
Sergeant: Thunder Hammer, Grav Pistol, Combat Shield

Devastator Squad - 160 points
5 men, Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Multi-Melta, Plasma Cannon
Sergeant: Power Fist, Combi-Plasma

Tactical Squad - 108 points
7 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Combi-Melta

Tactical Squad - 113 points
7 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Plasma Pistol, Chainsword

Tactical Squad - 113 points
7 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Boltgun, Lightning Claws

Dreadnought - 120 points
Missile Launcher, Assault Cannon

Auxillary
Linebreakers
Vindicator - 130 points
Siege Shield

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018764.page GMT [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List
Overall the structure of you list is fine. Sternhammer works. It might not be tournament level competitive, but should serve you well in most FLGS play.

What’s your captain’s job and where is he going? SM HQs are generally very choppy guys, so sticking him with an assault unit is normally a safe idea. The other option to you make them tanky, and stick them somewhere that needs more defense. Plasma pistols (all special pistols really) are overpriced. Shame, as they are iconic and cool looking. Just not 15 points worth of cool. I don’t let my captains out of the house unless they have artificer armor. 2+ save is worth the points. In your list as-is, I’d drop the pistol, get him a jump pack and AA, and stick him with the assault marines. Or replace him with a jump chaplain.

I’d never invest that many points into a 1 wound model. Especially one that’s going to be striking last. Vet sarge, power weapon, bolt pistol. Decent CC output, not an insane amount of points. I’d also look into getting a pair of flamers for the squad. If you are going to have the HQ in the squad, you can afford to have the sage hitting last (as someone else can soak the challenge) so take an axe. If not, sword/maul are your best bet.

If you do want to mix guns in a dev squad, at least make sure they want to shoot at the same target and at similar ranges. Generally I like my dev’s for AV work, so would stick with LCs or maybe half MLs. I hate to tell a son of Dorn to ditch a powerfist, but a dev sarge is not a good spot for one. Even the combi is debatable. He’s going to spend most of his time giving one of the guys BS5 rather then shooting. And the odds of him getting to swing in CC are incredibly low.

Footslogging the tacs? For the points you invest in a rhino/pod, you get a lot of perks. I’d probably go either 5 men or 10. Special/matching combi is my general advice for tac loadouts. I’d like to see a supporting heavy on 10 man squads, but that’s my old fashioned Ultramarine speaking. I’d pass on pistols and CC options.

With dreads being 4A base these days I find it hard to remove the powerfist. I’d drop the ML, keep the CC fist. AsC is a decent all-around gun.

My only problem with the Vindi is that you don’t have a lot of armor in your list. I suspect it’s going to take an early shot and explode. Meching up your tacs in rhinos will give it some boxes to shield it’s soft flanks, and other targets for your foe’s AV firepower.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018805.page GMT [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List

Nevelon wrote:
I really hate saying this, but your list is a hot mess.

Okay.... Wow.

Apparently I'm bad at this. It's alright, still learning. Haven't played seriously before, still learning points and how to actually create an army that works.
I need to check what models I have and which ones I can pick up.

What’s your captain’s job and where is he going? SM HQs are generally very choppy guys, so sticking him with an assault unit is normally a safe idea. The other option to you make them tanky, and stick them somewhere that needs more defense. Plasma pistols (all special pistols really) are overpriced. Shame, as they are iconic and cool looking. Just not 15 points worth of cool. I don’t let my captains out of the house unless they have artificer armor. 2+ save is worth the points. In your list as-is, I’d drop the pistol, get him a jump pack and AA, and stick him with the assault marines. Or replace him with a jump chaplain.

What about Terminator Armour? Either Chaplain or Captain

Especially one that’s going to be striking last. Vet sarge, power weapon, bolt pistol. Decent CC output, not an insane amount of points. I’d also look into getting a pair of flamers for the squad. If you are going to have the HQ in the squad, you can afford to have the sage hitting last (as someone else can soak the challenge) so take an axe. If not, sword/maul are your best bet.

So, Thunder Hammer not good? What about combat shield, keep or remove?

f you do want to mix guns in a dev squad, at least make sure they want to shoot at the same target and at similar ranges. Generally I like my dev’s for AV work, so would stick with LCs or maybe half MLs. I hate to tell a son of Dorn to ditch a powerfist, but a dev sarge is not a good spot for one. Even the combi is debatable. He’s going to spend most of his time giving one of the guys BS5 rather then shooting. And the odds of him getting to swing in CC are incredibly low.

Good point. What heavy weapon should I focus on? I like the bolters due to the Imperial Fists rules of basically giving all bolters twinlinked, but apparently Grav weapons are OP.

Footslogging the tacs? For the points you invest in a rhino/pod, you get a lot of perks. I’d probably go either 5 men or 10. Special/matching combi is my general advice for tac loadouts. I’d like to see a supporting heavy on 10 man squads, but that’s my old fashioned Ultramarine speaking. I’d pass on pistols and CC options.

So just go normal Boltguns for Sergeants, and use the extra points for Rhinos?

My only problem with the Vindi is that you don’t have a lot of armor in your list. I suspect it’s going to take an early shot and explode. Meching up your tacs in rhinos will give it some boxes to shield it’s soft flanks, and other targets for your foe’s AV firepower.

The Vindicator is there because I needed an Auxillary, and I like the Vindicator. With the Rhinos they might offer it some protection

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018839.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018839.page GMT [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List WD battle reports, would play poorly on the table against a list where someone focused on the task at hand.

One or the core ideas in list building it to take a unit, figure out what you want to do with it, and give it the tools to do that job. If you can pick up a secondary job at only a minor point cost, or slight degradation to your primary job, that’s OK. You trade efficiency of flexibility. But if you try to cover too many bases at once, you start to lack the ability to get your primary job done.

Your Dev squad is a clear example of this. What do you want to shoot at? Tanks? Well, the LC is good at that, and so is the MM. But the LC wants to camp in the backfield, and the MM needs to be aggressively deployed forward. PC can work vs. light armor, but not anything resembling a real tank. So you are spending 160 points for 1-2 shots that might affect a tank. On the flip side, if you are shooting at troops, the LC/MM are going to be overkill (and might not be in range for the MM) so the PC and HB will be doing most of the work. You might kill a couple of grunts, but are not going to make any serious headway vs. anything resembling a horde army. You end up paying a lot of points to be bad at everything.

My Dev squad of choice these days is 4xLC. It’s got one job: blow up tanks at range. Might not be the most optimal tool for the job, but I like devs and I need them for the demi-co anyway. If I wanted to make them a little more flexible, I could swap out half of them for MLs. Less good at blowing up tanks, but if I face off against a green tide, the flack missiles might help. But It’s not like I’m mixing HBs and LCs, which never want to be shooting at the same thing. You want to avoid situations where some of your guys are taking a coffee break while the rest get the job done. Unless the guys who are still working can ensure the job does get done.

Terminator armor is generally overshadowed by other options. Mostly because terminators themselves are overpriced for what you get. The only time I use it on HQs is if they are hanging out with like armored units. (which I still field on occasion because they are fluffy and cool) The only exception to this is the new chaperacti terminator captain, who can pull some slow and purposeful tricks. For the most part you should gear your HQs to hang out with the squad you are sticking them with. Bikes are the mechanically best option these days. But if you are fielding assault marines, get the jump pack. Hanging out in a pod/rhino/razor? AA for the captain, plain PA for the rest.

Thunder hammers are not bad in and of themselves. Good on HQs, who unless they are instant deathed, can take a wound or two and still swing. Plus they have better CC stats to back them up. You pay the same for the hammer on a 1 W/A sarge as your 4 W/A chapter master. And one of these guys is going to get a lot more use out of it. I just don’t think it’s wise to invest that much in a 1W guy who can be challenged, and potentially killed before he gets to swing. A 6++ is not particularly reliable. It might save you, but more often it’s going to do nothing. I’d rather have a melta bomb. That said, it looks cool and is only 5 points. I’ve spent 5 points in a list just to look cool before. Bringing us back to the thunderhammer; I personally don’t think concussive is worth the 5 points you pay over the price of a power fist. I do, however think a TH is 5 points cooler looking then a fist. So when it came time to build my JP captain, he got a TH/LC.

I like to use tac squads to shore up other spots of my list that need help. If you think you need more AV, take melta/combi-melta sarges. Worried about terminators/monsters? Plas or grav. Hordes? Flamers. And don’t feel compelled to spam the same squad 3 times. But the rhinos are the first priority. IMHO the tac’s primary job is to take and hold objectives. The tool they need to help with that is mobility. So transports are required. And warm bodies, which is why I advocate full 10 man squads. After that get the squad special, then a combi for the sarge. Heavy weapon is optional, but fluffy. CC toy for the sarge can be nice in a pinch, but should be the last things handed out in your army. And that assumes everyone else has all the kit they need.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9018961.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List
Since my opponents are mostly going to be heavily armoured, with Tanks, Crisis Suits, and Grey Knight Terminators, I think I will do the LC/ML split, allows for hard hitting while still giving me so infantry stuff.

What about the Lord Executioner model? Jetpack, Power Axe. Chuck him in with the Assault Squad?

What about Razorbacks? Once I make those changes I have enough points to afford to outfit the 3 tac squads with Heavy Bolter Razors, are they worth it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9019006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9019006.page GMT [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List AP from the LC. However, if you are playing people who routinely bunch up light troops into tight little clusters, the frags might get some use. But once they learn to properly space units, the value of small blasts goes down a lot.

The Lord Executioner is an awesome looking model. I might call the big axe a relic blade, rather then a mundane power axe. But artificer armor, jump pack, power axe/bolt pistol is not a bad low-cost captain loadout. Stick him in the assault marines and go blend things.

If you are taking razors, I’d try to get the points for one of the better turrets. Any of them would work. I find these days that the sort of things HBs are good at killing, I don’t have a problem gunning down. Mostly because I field full 10 man tac squads. But you can never have enough heavy firepower in your list. But if you are fielding 5 man squads in razors, you might need the extra dakka. Catch 22 really. So the HBs are ok-ish, but the better guns are better. Or just run 10 man squads in rhinos so you can get more boots on objectives. Or a mix. This is very much a preferred playstyle thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9019049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9019049.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List

Frag missiles (and small blasts in general) are one of those things that work better on paper then on the field. I personally find them disappointing, and end up just using kracks all the time. Which is one reason I’ve settled on the 4xLC. If I’m going for single shot anyway, might as well get the extra S and AP from the LC. However, if you are playing people who routinely bunch up light troops into tight little clusters, the frags might get some use. But once they learn to properly space units, the value of small blasts goes down a lot.

I'll see how the games go, if they work, I'll keep them. If they don't, I'll switch them out when we can change our armies.

The Lord Executioner is an awesome looking model. I might call the big axe a relic blade, rather then a mundane power axe. But artificer armor, jump pack, power axe/bolt pistol is not a bad low-cost captain loadout. Stick him in the assault marines and go blend things.

Blending things does indeed sound very tempting. I just have to get the model

If you are taking razors, I’d try to get the points for one of the better turrets. Any of them would work. I find these days that the sort of things HBs are good at killing, I don’t have a problem gunning down. Mostly because I field full 10 man tac squads. But you can never have enough heavy firepower in your list. But if you are fielding 5 man squads in razors, you might need the extra dakka. Catch 22 really. So the HBs are ok-ish, but the better guns are better. Or just run 10 man squads in rhinos so you can get more boots on objectives. Or a mix. This is very much a preferred playstyle thing.

I don't really have the points or the models themselves for the Lascannons, and I don't have the money to afford the Forgeworld varients! Heavy Bolters at leasts gives them some form of backup, however small it may be. Besides, could nail some weak ground troops.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9019114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9019114.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List
List:

Sternhammer Strike Force

Core
Demi-Company

Captain - 140 points
Jetpack, Power Axe, Artificer Armour

Assault Squad - 110 points
5 men, Jetpacks
Sergeant: Veteran, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol

Devastator Squad - 140 points
5 men, Lascannon, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Missile Launcher
Sergeant: Boltgun, Signum

Tactical Squad - 130 points
5 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Boltgun
Transport: Razorback (Heavy Bolter)

Tactical Squad - 130 points
5 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Boltgun
Transport: Razorback (Heavy Bolter)

Tactical Squad - 110 points
5 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Boltgun
Transport: Rhino

Dreadnought - 110 points
Powerfist (Storm Bolter), Assault Cannon

Auxillary
Linebreakers
Vindicator - 130 points
Siege Shield ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020268.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List

TheoreticalFish wrote:
So, Had a fiddle, this is the result

List:

Sternhammer Strike Force

Core
Demi-Company

Captain - 140 points
Jetpack, Power Axe, Artificer Armour

Assault Squad - 110 points
5 men, Jetpacks
Sergeant: Veteran, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol

Devastator Squad - 140 points
5 men, Lascannon, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Missile Launcher
Sergeant: Boltgun, Signum

Tactical Squad - 130 points
5 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Boltgun
Transport: Razorback (Heavy Bolter)

Tactical Squad - 130 points
5 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Boltgun
Transport: Razorback (Heavy Bolter)

Tactical Squad - 110 points
5 men, Boltgun
Sergeant: Boltgun
Transport: Rhino

Dreadnought - 110 points
Powerfist (Storm Bolter), Assault Cannon

Auxillary
Linebreakers
Vindicator - 130 points
Siege Shield

I must say that this list is much better than the last one. To make it even better, you might want add a few special weapons in your Tactical Squads. For example, a flamer or two to deal with hordes camped in cover. Also, how about a Heavy bolter in that Rhino Squad to shoot out of their "mobil bunker"? That makes it same as Razorback when staying stationary or moved cruising speed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020326.page GMT [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List
I’d like to see flamers on the assault marines, specials/combis on the tacs, and your vindi could use a stormbolter. It’s a 5 point investment in ignoring half the weapon destroyed results. One I could have used last night if I wasn’t so stingy with my upgrades. (grumble grumble, lucky long range shot turns my new tank into a rolling paperweight turn one)

But it’s not like you have a lot of place to shave points from, so just something to keep in mind as you build up your force.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020328.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020328.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List
Example, removing the razorbacks allows me to put 3 Heavy Bolters in the Tac squads, a Flamer in the Assault and the Vindi Storm Bolter]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020388.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List

TheoreticalFish wrote:
Would it be worth knocking the Razorbacks down to Rhinos and spending the points on Special Weapons?

Example, removing the razorbacks allows me to put 3 Heavy Bolters in the Tac squads, a Flamer in the Assault and the Vindi Storm Bolter

I think at this point we are looking at a lot of lateral swaps. So it’s not like you are spending points “better” just different. Vs. some armies it might be better, worse vs. others. I would make those swaps, but I’m not going to claim it’s the best call. But I like the way it feels more.

At the end of the day, what kind of mood your dice are in is going to make more of an impact then were you spent those last 5 points. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020434.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List

At the end of the day, what kind of mood your dice are in is going to make more of an impact then were you spent those last 5 points.

That is the unfortunate nature of these type of games. You could have the best army in the world, the best painted models, the most expensive, and your mega HQ unit gets 1 shot by a Guardsmen with a rock.

Also, side note. I gave the Tac Squad Sergeants Melta Bombs. Melta Bombs, yay or nah? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020490.page GMT [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List your FLGS, or basement, or wherever you go to actually push plastic across the table. If most of the guys around you play green tide, or gribbly horde tyranid lists, what I tell you is a healthy mix of AV/anti-horde firepower is going to be completely irrelevant. If you really like the look of the terminator chaplain, or are particularly proud of the way you painted your whirlwind, work them into your list, Internet wisdom be damned!

There are lot of little things that make a big difference. I can sit here and second guess your choices. We can mathhammer out the potential effectiveness of various options. But all of those have a lot of assumptions. The best we can do is make sure you have all your bases covered in a generic Take All Comers style environment. Will you have bad match ups? Yup. Are there going to be situations where the path not taken would have lead to victory? Assuredly.

At the end of the day, you need to make sure you have a list you like, that’s fun for you to play.

RE Meltabombs:
There were a number of places I listed in a previous post where I would have spent those points. 9 out of 10 times melta bombs are going to be irrelevant. I will say though, that 10th time, where you shout triumph atop the smoking ruin of a slagged Land Raider, does make it appealing. The question is if those points could be better spent, to help ensure victory in the other 9 games. No good answer here, it’s very much a personal call.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020548.page GMT Re:[1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List

It’s not just our fickle little multi-sided friends though. I can sit here at my laptop and give you all sorts of generic internet advice. And it works OK in the fuzzily defined “global meta”. But you don’t play there; nobody does. You play at your FLGS, or basement, or wherever you go to actually push plastic across the table.

Even thought it's just, as you put, 'generic internet advice', thanks for the help

It has helped a great deal, not just with this list, but also helped me kinda realize how to build an army from the beginning. So next time I build a list, it won't be such a hot mess. So yeah, Thanks a lot

If you really like the look of the terminator chaplain, or are particularly proud of the way you painted your whirlwind, work them into your list, Internet wisdom be damned!

And yeah, I'm gonna tailor my army the way I want. For example, when the campaign next expands up to 1500 points, we can do Lords of War. So I'm going to be taking an Imperial Knight. Because I

ing love Imperial Knights, and it is probably the best paint job I've ever done. Might not be the best choice, but stuff it. Fun.

RE Meltabombs:

I don't really see any other way to spend the 15 points, so yeah, gonna keep the Melta bombs just for the 1/10 chance of nailing a Land Raider.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9020566.page GMT [1000] - Space Marine (Imperial Fists) - Escalating Campaign List

Nevelon wrote:
It’s not just our fickle little multi-sided friends though. I can sit here at my laptop and give you all sorts of generic internet advice. And it works OK in the fuzzily defined “global meta”. But you don’t play there; nobody does. You play at your FLGS, or basement, or wherever you go to actually push plastic across the table. If most of the guys around you play green tide, or gribbly horde tyranid lists, what I tell you is a healthy mix of AV/anti-horde firepower is going to be completely irrelevant. If you really like the look of the terminator chaplain, or are particularly proud of the way you painted your whirlwind, work them into your list, Internet wisdom be damned!

There are lot of little things that make a big difference. I can sit here and second guess your choices. We can mathhammer out the potential effectiveness of various options. But all of those have a lot of assumptions. The best we can do is make sure you have all your bases covered in a generic Take All Comers style environment. Will you have bad match ups? Yup. Are there going to be situations where the path not taken would have lead to victory? Assuredly.

At the end of the day, you need to make sure you have a list you like, that’s fun for you to play.

RE Meltabombs:
There were a number of places I listed in a previous post where I would have spent those points. 9 out of 10 times melta bombs are going to be irrelevant. I will say though, that 10th time, where you shout triumph atop the smoking ruin of a slagged Land Raider, does make it appealing. The question is if those points could be better spent, to help ensure victory in the other 9 games. No good answer here, it’s very much a personal call.

Probably the best and most sincere answer ive read for a while. ITC meta means very little for the majority of the player base as most of us are not playing at that level.

My 5p worth? Your collection should trump your lists. Meta will change with editions and if you are going to spend lots of money and time on plastic you'd be much happier if you like what you feild. My second piece of advice is this: don't get distracted. This summer: after a 15 year break from the hobby i finally relented and made a pact with 4 friends to return to the hobby and start collecting again. I had plans for my own custom chapter... And then one of my friends got a bits lot from ebay with space wolf parts. I went oooh shiny and got them before i even read the codex. At the point that i had already spent about about £200 and was working my way through painting them. Obsessing with itc lists and meta i realised that as beautiful as the models were, space wolves are geared and designed to play in a very particular way: assault. And i preferred a play style which was much more flexible. I came to the conclusion that i was never going to play this list in anything more than fun games (the necessity for blood claws in most formations was a deal breaker) . I was at a crossroads. I could double down or cut my losses. In the end i decided that i would finish my 1850 list and then turn to my custom chapter as i would otherwise risk having 2 incomplete armies much like when i was younger. Alleviating the stress of trying to work what i wanted into the meta made list building fun again. I rounded off the rest of my purchases with units that i wanted and am really excited to hit the 1850 mark with them. So in short: chose what you want and find a formation that works for it (even if its a boring old cad) and follow through with the plan.

Sorry for the structure. Im on my phone. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9023935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/708238/9023935.page GMT