YoungSolomon wrote:After thinking it over and reading about others experience thus far I've revised both of my lists

List #1
Thousand Sons Grand Coven
War Cabal-1704pts

Exalted Sorcerer
-ML3
-Seer's Bane

Sorcerer
-ML3
-Astral Grimoire
-Melta Bombs

Sorcerer
-ML3
-Burning Brand
-Spell Familiar
-Melta Bombs

Sorcerer
-ML3
-Athenaean scrolls
-Melta Bombs

5 Rubric Marines
-Rhino w/ HL and warpflame gargoyles

5 Rubric Marines
-Rhino w/ HL and warpflame gargoyles

10 Rubric Marines
-Soulreaper Cannon

5 Scarab Occult Terminators
-Soulreaper cannon
-Hellfyre Missile Rack

Auxilary-294pts

Vindicator
-Siege Shield
-Havoc Launcher
-Warpflame Gargoyles

Vindicator
-Siege Shield
-Havoc Launcher
-Warpflame Gargoyles

Total:1998pts


List#2
Thousand Sons Grand Coven

War Cabal-1525pts

Exalted Sorcerer
-ML3
-Seer's Bane

Sorcerer
-ML3
-Astral Grimoire
-Melta Bombs

Sorcerer
-ML3
-Burning Brand
-Spell Familiar
-Melta Bombs

5 Rubric Marines
-Rhino

5 Rubric Marines
-Rhino

10 Rubric Marines
-Soulreaper Cannon

5 Scarab Occult Terminators
-Soulreaper cannon
-Hellfyre Missile Rack

Auxilary-475pts

Forgefiend
-Hades Autocannons

Forgefiend
-Hades Autocannons

Maulerfiend
-Magma Cutters

Total:2000pts

The first list has a little more psychic output and flexibility for hordes or vehicles with the vindicators. For the second list I went with walker support instead, adding a maulerfiend for more anti-tank as well as drawing fire away from my precious sorcerers. I'm not sure which one to settle on yet. I may do some play testing at my FLGS to see which performs best. As always C&C is welcome and appreciated

 Drasius wrote:

A personal note, try and trim down the amount of space taken up by your lists, it makes it really hard to compare stuff otherwise and the lack of points costs (just a unit total, nothing more) means we have to add things up to check if you've got a legal list.

On to the main show. First things first, I totally agree with Elroniel on all 3 points. I've run multiple vindies as Sons support since 6th and all 3 points are spot on. Daemonic possession is worth its weight in gold as you're still firing on a 2+ unless you're wrecked or you lose the demolisher cannon and with close range and AV11 sides, they're going to get penned. While the ability to just ignore terrain is nice, you're writing a CSM list and a TSons one at that, 5 points can be make or break and the 1/36 chance of immobilising yourself when driving over a fence is worth the saving. I'd also like to say I'm a huge fan of the hades forgefiend, especially now that you can roll your sorcs on div without having to rely on allied Tz daemons for it as their ability to put some volume of decent str fire downrange is fantastic and desperately needed in a sons list. I find that they compliment the vindies very well and 2 of 1 and 1 of the other is a good combo (almost always 2 vindies due to closer range and paper thin sides).

As for the lists, you already know the issues (no anti tank, no anti 2+, no anti MC, no anti flier, lack of bodies, no Obsec, bad in melee) but to me, your main issue is oversepending on relics and the sorcs. As bad as rubrics are (and they're pretty bad), if you're taking a squad, it should either be a squad of 10 with a cannon or a min squad of 5 to meet formation requirements because in my experience, anything less than about 9-10 guys will lose combat effectiveness exactly 1 enemy shooting once they are out of their rhino one way or another whereas those few extra guys can let you at least get to the midfield and stick around being at least a bit of a threat for another turn. It also minimises the aspiring sorceror tax to an extent, but paing another 140 points to lessen the sting of the first 150 isn't exactly comforting.

You've spent 710 points on 4 models in list 1 and despite the fact that you're not only desperately low on WC (as all Sons lists are), only a single one of them has a spell familiar. You're also desperately dependant on your sorcs, but only the exalted has an invo boost to take them to a 4++ (a 3++ if he gets a blessing off). Despite all this, you're spending 40 points on a deamon weapon that should hopefully not get into combat too often (I assume he's going with the terminators so they don't get stonewalled so hard by 2+ armour?) and another 70 for the mobility that you desperately need to have any sort of board presence with so few bodies (29 plus 2 rhinos and a pair of vindies at 2k is enough to make GK look like a hoard army). The brand is a nice way to deal with coverbusting, but really, it's more AP3 in a list with ONLY ap3. The scrolls are a nice point filler, but sons can't really afford point filler when everything they have already comes at such a high premium. If the termies are intended for close combat, then they really don't need the 50 points of shooting options that won't be of any use in combat.

Then we've got points wasted on havok launchers with warp flame gargoyles. You've got 2 rhino chassis and 2 vindicators on the board at 2k. If both rhinos aren't smoking wrecks on turn 1, your enemy deserves to lose horribly so there's really not much point to spending more than you need for that quick boost to midfield that the slow sons desperately need. Elroniel has already covered the vindies perfectly, they should be 145 with a combi bolter, dozer blade and daemonic possession and they should serve you well in most games, though they'll never be short of targets.

The second list has many of the same issues as the first, but the loss of a sorc improves it greatly IMHO. Personally I'd drop the min rubrics (or at least 1) and use those points to flesh out the sorcs with familiars and turn the maulerfiend into a vindicator or possibly even an all plasma forgefiend

 spunkybass wrote:
Welcome to the Thousand Sons! The most gratifying and gifted Legion there ever was. This is more of a tactical principles post rather than a list critique. It's all my opinions based on my experience, so you might agree or not. Hope it helps you build your list.

With the new books, the Thousand Sons remain one of the hardest armies to use, in my opinion. I've been playing Thousand Sons since 2003 over a few generations, and one thing has remained constant. You got to to use them smart and aggressive. When you strip off all the bells and whistles, what is it that the bulk of a Thousand Sons army does? To me - their basic weapons work best at 12" range, they are slow, and, true to fluff, they are over-reliant on sorcery.

So if their basic weapons work best at 12", then you better come prepared for close combat. I know that a lot of people try to avoid close combat using the Thousand Sons. But in my mind, you can't avoid it. So embrace it, and prepare for it. This might mean a lot of things. Stuff like Seer's Bane and Astral Grimoire start becoming real attractive. Also, Land Raiders start looking like they might be worth their points.This also means you need large-ish Rubric squads. 5 just won't cut it (5 does not really fulfill any role except for filling out formation requirements and perhaps objective-sitting). Minimum of 9-10 is good (though 9 is sexy because you're Tzeentch). 10 to buy the fancy new cannon? In my mind, the gun is not worth the points.

Ever since the demise of CSM3.5, Thousand Sons have been over-reliant on sorcery. And we can't complain, because it's all part of making pacts with Tzeentch yes? The good news is, the new book gives the Sons an amazing psychic armoury. It also gives you tactical flexibility - if your next opponent has lots of tanks, load up on Heretech, for example. Otherwise, good ol' favorites like Telepathy still work wonders. Divination gives some interesting options too. And the buffed up Tzeentch is a huge improvement. The challenge is stocking up on WC dice. At 1850 pts, if you have less than 11-12+d6 dice in a conventional War Cabal, you're in trouble. There are lots of ways to generate this dice, but the challenge comes when you want to get a balance between WC batteries and a viable army that looks as good as it plays.

And after you built your list, tactics and timing is crazy important for the Thousand Sons to win. No need to be too bothered with the minutae of tactics, just some basic principles would do. E..g. how do you hit the enemy's weakest point with your strongest, then roll up his flank? How would you deploy so that the enemy wastes a significant part of his strength on less important areas, or at least splits himself up? Lots of interesting tactical possibilities. But in principle, your units need to be able to work with each other well. Timing is easy - it's always NOW.

One last thing - I hate to admit it, but Ahriman has been almost an auto-include for me post CSM3.5. His witchfire abilities are amazing and ML4 and all that. And just as important, his Warlord Trait allows you even more tactical flexiblity now. E.g. 5 Occult Terminators in a dedicated transport Land Raider can infiltrate itself near a 5-man space marine unit (those are common nowadays), and go for an easy first blood with twin-linked inferno bolters and a heavy warpflamer (at extreme range, perhaps get 2, if lucky 3 under the template).

Just some things to consider when building your list. Good luck!

 spunkybass wrote:
I like the lists. Nice to see that you're building the army with as much character (as in coolness to theme) in mind, while still not suffering too much in terms of on-table performance. I used to not take SCs except for bigger games, so I know where you're coming from (e.g. Ahriman will not sully his noble self by taking any part in this pitiful 1500pt battle kinda thing - totally cool).

For List#1, I'm not really sure about the Forgefiend, because I've never used one, so I can't really say much about it. Let me know how that works out.

Would be interesting to hear what you have in mind with the units, ie their battlefield roles and how they are supposed to work together. E.g. You have 3 sorcerer ICs, and only 2 available seats in your Rhinos. So will one of the rubric squads be joined by the Astral-bearing sorcerer and fly around, while the exhalted and the other sorcerer ride their Rhino?

Also, what's the basic play for your Occult termies? That's a rock solid unit, but it needs to be at the right place at the right time? Astral it? Deep strike?

List #2 looks really difficult to handle. The 10 rubric squads with the cannon look like point-sinks. Also not too sure about the Hellfyre missile racks. Your Termies need to be closer to the enemy, not further, so the heavy warpflamer would be a more natural choice. The Hellfyres don't seem to fill a role here. For anti-tank and hi-toughness, you've got the Vindis and psykers.

Talking about psykers, I like the fact that both lists have a nice amount of WC dice 13 in the first one, 14 in the second one.

Nice.

But you do need to figure out how the units are supposed to work.