Imateria wrote:
I like the PFP changes in general but with counter able to go down as well as up depending on your kills that turn I think the book keeping might be a bit too much. I also don't think there's anyway to make PFP work that wouldn't encourage Dark Eldar being a Beta Strike army, the whole point is to make us stronger the longer we go on.

I'm not sure why you'd think you overstepped with Night Shields, it's a 15pt upgrade that gives us +1 to cover. Most of the time it will be functionally identical to the current Night Shields, the only time it will be different is if Night Fighting is in effect, I don't think any one can really complain about a 2+ jink for just the first turn on our paper thin vehicles.

Retrofire jets are a good idea, I think we could also do with something that lets us re-roll dangerous terrain tests, it's rediculous that we run more vehicles than almost any other faction yet have no way to overcome this stupid rule (I hate Dangerous Terrain, it never makes any sense).

Maybe make Reaver Pilots 10pts instead, but anpther good idea.

I like the idea of Rapid Ascent engines, but at 40pts it's about double the cost of what it should be.

I think you need to rewright Scaling Nets, I can't see what it does that the Assault Vehicle special rule doesn't already give us.

You've made no mention of the weapon options being for the Raider as well as the Venom, but I think it would have been good to add in the Disintegrator Cannon as well (would love to have Venoms running around with 2 of those on!).

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
I like the PFP changes in general but with counter able to go down as well as up depending on your kills that turn I think the book keeping might be a bit too much. I also don't think there's anyway to make PFP work that wouldn't encourage Dark Eldar being a Beta Strike army, the whole point is to make us stronger the longer we go on.

I'm not sure why you'd think you overstepped with Night Shields, it's a 15pt upgrade that gives us +1 to cover. Most of the time it will be functionally identical to the current Night Shields, the only time it will be different is if Night Fighting is in effect, I don't think any one can really complain about a 2+ jink for just the first turn on our paper thin vehicles.

Retrofire jets are a good idea, I think we could also do with something that lets us re-roll dangerous terrain tests, it's rediculous that we run more vehicles than almost any other faction yet have no way to overcome this stupid rule (I hate Dangerous Terrain, it never makes any sense).

Maybe make Reaver Pilots 10pts instead, but anpther good idea.

I like the idea of Rapid Ascent engines, but at 40pts it's about double the cost of what it should be.

I think you need to rewright Scaling Nets, I can't see what it does that the Assault Vehicle special rule doesn't already give us.

You've made no mention of the weapon options being for the Raider as well as the Venom, but I think it would have been good to add in the Disintegrator Cannon as well (would love to have Venoms running around with 2 of those on!).

Sorry for the delayed response! I've been too exhausted to long on much lately. >.<

POWER FROM PAIN:
I understand and share your concerns. I wanted to have a way for PFP to decrease over time to encourage dark eldar players to keep up the pressure on their opponents and to start attacking early. Remember, you don't power up your pain batteries in this system unless things are dying, so beta striking might not help you out as much as alpha striking. I'm also worried that not letting the pain decrease over time might make it too easy for dark eldar to pile up a bunch of pain over the first couple of turns and then not have to think about it for the rest of the game. I worry that might feel less like you have a craving that must be constantly sated and more like you just need a quick shot of pain to top yourself off every now and then. I'm operating under the assumption that there will be one or two turns a game in which no non-vehicle units are completely destroyed, but maybe that's a flawed assumption. How would you feel about this mechanic if the pain meter could not be decreased? Or what if weapons like the spirit vortex didn't increase the pain level on a per-kill basis but instead simply increased the pain meter by 1 at the end of a turn in which they killed one or more models (rather than entire units)?

NIGHT SHIELDS:
I was specifically thinking about armies with the Stealth(Ruins) warlord trait getting a 2+ jink while in ruins. 4+ from jink, 3+ from Stealth, 2+ from night shields.

Glad you like the retrofires and reaver pilots!

RAPID ASCENT ENGINES:
Interesting you say that. The one other person I've run this bye seemed to think the engines were too good at 40 points because of the boost to durability it provided.

SCALING NETS:
Absolutely need to be rewritten. They're supposed to allow you to disembark in the shooting phase. The idea was that you could drive a raider up near an enemy transport and then shoot at it with other units before deciding whether or not to disembark your incubi (or wahtever). So if the transport doesn't pop, maybe you want to keep the safety of your transport. Or if the transport does pop and then your shooty elements finish off the guys that hop out of it, maybe it isn't worth assaulting the squad that came out and exposing yourself in the following turn.

RAIDER WEAPONS:
Bleck. More oversights. I meant to make similar options available to raiders, but I felt they might warrant different price tags on that platform. You like the idea of having more gun options on our transports in general though? Disintegrator venoms could be a lot of fun to field! It's enough shots to mildly threatening to light vehicles, devastating against 2+ armor and MEQs, and pretty solid against a lot of MCs. Would strength 5 AP 2 be too good compared to splinter cannons though? I wouldn't want to overshadow the poison option.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I feel like Dissies on Venoms would unbalance the already ropey relationship between Raiders and Venoms (although whether that's a valid convern given the current meta I'm not sure).

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I see what you mean. I suppose it doesn't actually change the killyness of Venoms, just changes their versatility. Still, I'l like to try and avoid monobuilds as much as possible. Venoms are already the backbone of DE armies, and if they get Haywire and AP2 there's pretty much no reason to take any other units.

More competitive. Less fun.

I like the idea of a piece of wargear that lets Raiders disembark after moving 12". Would be a very useful piece of kit that I don't think would be overpowering.

Wyldhunt wrote:

UPDATE 12-16-2016
The conversation below inspired me to brew up some rules for our beloved HQs. Oh and look! Kheradruakh seems to have stopped slinking around in the darkness to say hello as a Lord of War choice! Obviously I haven't put much thought into the pricing of these abilities. I feel they're hard to price as their usefulness tends to scale up or down depending on the size of the game. Your thoughts?

COMBAT DRUGS: Reduce the drug table to a d3 chart with only the +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attacks results.

DRUG DISPENSERS: Any character in a Dark Eldar detachment may take a drug dispenser for 15 points. At the beginning of each assault phase, each model with a drug dispenser may choose to benefit form any number of combatdrugs of their choice for the duration of the phase. At the end of the phase, the model rolls a d6 for each drug they benefitted from that phase. If any doubles are rolled, the model takes a single wound with no save or FNP of any kind allowed.

HQ OPTIONS
ARCHONS: Gain access to the following options.
-Ancient Schemer: If this archon is your warlord, she gains has the Labyrinthine Cunning warlord trait automatically. X points.
-Raid Leader: Add +1 to the roll to determine whether or not Night Fighting is in effect. Dark Eldar models you place in reserve may opt to roll for reserves beginning on turn 1. Y points.
-Slave Taker: Before the game, count the number of enemy non-vehicle units. Keep track of any such enemy units destroyed by sweeping advances or weapons with the poison rule. Score an additional VP at the end of the game if the number of enemy units slain in this fashion is equal to at least half the starting number of such units. (Too wordy? Basically if you sweet or poison at least half the enemy non-vehicle units to death, you get an extra VP. Maybe this would make a better special mission than a special army-wide rule?) Z points.

SUCCUBI: Gain access to the following options.
-Reaver Queen: Reavers become a troop choice for your army, and this succubus may be mounted upon a reaver jetbike at no additional cost. X points.
-Toxic Arena: Units with the Combat Drugs rule benefit from an additional combat drug for the duration of the game, and this model may be equipped with a Drug Dispenser at no additional cost. Y points.
-Blood Sport: Increase the pain meter by an additional point each time you destroy an enemy non-vehicle unit in the assault phase. Z points.

HAEMONCULI: Gain access to the following options.
-Teachings of Shaimesh (mostly stolen from jade_angel): Any model in the same unit as this haemonculus treat the poison rule of their weapons as being Poison(2+). Weapons without the poison rule gain no benefit.
-Cornucopia of Pain: For each haemonculus with this rule in your army, increase the pain meter's starting value by 2.
-Rapid Resurrection: If at least one haemonculus with this rule is still alive at the end of the game, roll a d6 for each friendly, non-vehicle unit with the dark eldar faction that was destroyed during the game. On a 5+, that unit was not considered to have been destroyed for purposes of victory points. So a chance at kill point denial, basically.


LORD OF WAR: KHERADRUAKH, THE DECAPITATOR
Points: I feel like he's comparable to a Phoenix Lord but without the ability to help out other squads (note the lack of the IC rule). His lack of an armor save makes him somewhat squishier in melee though. Call him 175 points?
Stats: WS 7 BS 7 S 5 T 3 W 3 I 7 A 4 Ld 10 Sv -
Special Rules: Bale Blast, Character, Fleet, Head Hunter, Hit & Run, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Plasma Grenades, Power From Pain, Precision Strike, Shrouded, Stealth
Wargear: Decaptitator

Decapitator: S User, Ap2, Any to-wound roll of 6 made by this weapon has the instant death rule.

Head Hunter

Like a gamer eyeing his choice of miniatures, the decapitator carefully seeks out the next skull to add to his collection. Before deployment, select on enemy character model. If Kheradruakh removes that model as a casualty during the course of the game, score 1 additional Victory Point.

Shade Stalker
Kheradruakh is a terrifying and enigmatic creature more likely to pursue his own strange agendas than to obey the whims of an archon. Kheradruakh may never be joined by an independent character. At any point in the Dark Eldar player's movement phase in which he is not locked in combat, Kheradruakh may opt to go into ongoing reserves. Kheradruakh may opt to not arrive from reserves each turn. At the beginning of any Dark Eldar turn in which Kheradruakh is in reserves, roll a d6 and consult the following table.

1-2 "What Was That?": Kheradruakh stalks his prey, filling them with dread. Select a single enemy unit. Until the start of the next Dark Eldar turn, that unit suffers a -2 to its leadership.
3-4 "Where'd you go?!" Kheradruakh thins the herd, eliminating lesser prey before they can cry out for help. Select an enemy non-vehicle unit. Your opponent must remove d3 non-character models from that unit as casualties. Models with a base cost (meaning their base price before wargear or other upgrades) of more than 25 points may not be selected as casualties.
5-6 A Blade in the Dark: Kheradruakh strikes with speed and precision, killing faster than the eye can track. Kheradruakh must be placed on the table and may be placed anywhere provided he is at least one inch away from enemy models. He may assault normally this turn despite having arrived from reserves. Until the start of the next Dark Eldar turn, all to-hit rolls made against Kheradruakh only hit on a roll of 6.

 lambsandlions wrote:
For combat drugs having 6 would be fine, just improve them like instead of +1 I you get shred, instead of +1ld you get fearless and instead of the last one you get +1 fnp. I like the idea of the drug dispenser but I think it would be better if we made it effect all units who take drugs. Like you pick at the beginning of the game and all units with combat drugs get that drug in addition to the one they roll.

Succubus with reaver troops seems too powerful to me but I love it. We need a HQ on jetbike. I would love if the succubus could take that or a skyboard.

For fixing wyches, I think if we fix combat drugs will not be enough. We need to give them a way to kill, like if they had rending similar the the eldar shuriken rending. Also it would be nice if their old shardnet and impaler was back and let us reduce the number of attacks enemy units had so we could stall a unit and slowly kill them off with rending hit.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah seconded on Archon reserves manipulation. Give them Labyrinthine Cunning as a default rule and replace it with a different Warlord Trait. How about Succubi allow a second, additional roll on the drugs chart (re-rolling duplicates)? Increased chance of getting something useful, with the possibility of getting something awesome like +1S and +1T. Double drugs could also, just about, make Wyches usable again

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I don't think Reavers, Blasters or Mandrakes need any help. They're decent enough as is.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
When I was doing a rewrite of the core rules for fun, I made shooting about comparing BS to Initiative. The idea is high Initiative isn't dodging bullets per se (though with I 10, maybe it is), so much as predicting where the guns are about to be pointed and not being there/taking the best avenue of approach.

As for regular 40k, I like the idea of Wyches having a 4++ for the entire Assault Ph se and not just a Fight Subphase. Matrix-time. To represent the fact they're entertainers and dealers in pain as much as anything else, I also like the idea of some rule like "Ludus Dolorum" ("school of pain") or so: Whenever a Wych unit is engaged in an assault, that unit and all other DE units within 12" of it add +1 to their Power from Pain result.

Making the Wych Weapons more exotic would be nice too, especially when you see the sexy toys Harlequins or GSC get.

It's nice, simple, and doesn't rely on banking on a single shot like the Animus Speculum or otherwise.

 Imateria wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I don't think Reavers, Blasters or Mandrakes need any help. They're decent enough as is.

Really, Mandrakes are fine? You must be the only person to think that.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I don't think Reavers, Blasters or Mandrakes need any help. They're decent enough as is.

Really, Mandrakes are fine? You must be the only person to think that.

I use them in my competitive lists. I do a lot of beta-striking, so having a cheap source of 2+ (cover) saves to sit on objectives or hide behind buildings helps out a lot. Granted, my competitive lists lean heavily on craftworlders for their offensive punch, so I can afford to give up a couple true kin elite slots to fit the mandrakes in. In casual games, they actually do quite well. You just have to accept that they're a shooty unit of infiltrators with a 2+ cover save instead of the melee unit their fluff suggests they should be. Ignores cover isn't actually that common now that serpent spam isn't a thing. The things that ignore cover only rarely ignore line of sight, so they usually have a role to play. That said, I'd really like to see more options for mandrakes. Aelindrachi wargear could be really cool. Arcane runes? Aelindrachi portals to cause night fighting for a turn? Maybe a shadewyrm to serve as assault grenades?

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Interesting update, I made the same change to Combat Drugs in my own fandex, so that it was a D3 table with the same options you have. Din't think of the drug dispenser but I did give the Combat Drugs special rule to Archons, Kabalites, Trueborn, Incubi and Scourge since they have the drug injectors molded onto their breastplates.

Archons
Count me as one of those thinks Archons should have Labarynthine Cunning as a standard special rule, their equivelant to the Autarch's Path of Command.
I like Raid Leader but I gave a similar ability to Duke Sliscus in my dex to replace his free Deep Strike to all vehicles rule thats now obsolete.
Slave Taker is definitely too wordy but I like the intent, reminds me of the 3rd edition rule where you got a VP on the roll of a 4+ for every enemy model slain in close combat.

Succubus
I'm not too fond of bikes being made Troops to be honest, and a Succubus should definitely not get a Reaver Jetbike for free.
Again, not fond of free upgrades in general. Rather than giving out an extra Combat Drug roll, how about the Succubus can let you choose the CD if she's your warlord?
I like Blood Sport a lot.

Haemonculi
I really like Cornocpia of Pain and especially Rapid Resurection, though I think the latter shouldn't apply to Troops choices as fluff wise you'd expect it to only be available to more high ranking Kabal, Cult and Coven members.
Not sure about Teachings of Shaimesh, I think Poison (2+) might be a bit too much, how about Poison (3+) instead?

Interesting take on Keradruakh, we seem to have thought along the same lines though you've beefed him up by lot compared to any previous incarnation. The Shade Stalker table definitely looks to be overpowered though.

Labyrinthine Cunning: I'd be fine with this, especially as a Poisoned Tongue player! However, Labyrinthine Cunning feels a bit "kitchen-sinky" to me. Making it a bit more streamlined (like the path of command rule) might help with that.

Slave Taker: Any suggestions on streamlining it? I didn't want to make it a per-model thing because that gives you huge bonuses against horde armies. Besides, an astartes captive is surely more valuable than some common guardsman!

Reaver Queen: I kind of felt that, with eldar, corsairs, marines, and even orks having access to a bike army, it sort of made sense for dark eldar to have the same option. It would be far less abusable than craftworlder scatbikes, and I figured someone out there would really enjoy using bikes but not vehicles. Note that the bike isn't "free" exactly. You pay the points for the Reaver Queen upgrade. It's just that you don't have to pay additional points on top of the reaver queen upgrade. It's simply easier than saying, "In addition, a model with this rule may purchase a reaver bike for X points."

Toxic Arena: See the note on not really being "free" above. I like the idea of letting her choose your drug result though!

Glad you like Blood Sport! Does that mean you're pretty happy with the general setup for PFP overall?

Rapid Ressurection: Good call. It's fluffy, plus it helps mitigate the possibility of rolling insanely well on your kill point denial and basically negating all your opponent's kills. There's counter-play to it.

Teachings of Shaimesh: Hmm. Maybe. Considering he can only give it to the unit he's actively joined, you're looking at a pretty limited buff placed on what is probably a relatively squishy unit. We're talking either a massive webway blob of warriors or 9 guys in a raider, most likely. Or as a boost to some grotesques or wracks.

Shade Stalker: What specifically do you feel is OP, and do you have any suggestions on how to modify it? The -2 leadership would combo well with a freakshow list, but it's also the only thing he'd be doing that turn. The removig d3 models is nice, but it can't effect really pricey models like terminators, T-Cav, etc, and your opponent controls which guys die first. Plus, you'll only get this result twice per game on average if you spend 6 turns shade stalking. Blade in the Dark is meant to be a combination Genestealer Cult attack and defense against being murderized. I didn't want Kheradruakh to jump into a fight, kill a guy, and then be promptly turned to paste by the guy's friends the way lictors tend to; I wanted opponents to feel like they were being ambushed and having trouble hitting their assailant as they deal with the sudden, unexpected attack. I'm certainly open to suggestions though.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Mandrakes arnt bad, the problem is there is to much in the game that can counter them and b.c the lack of power DE has we cant afford to take them :/

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Mandrakes arnt bad, the problem is there is to much in the game that can counter them and b.c the lack of power DE has we cant afford to take them :/

Really depends what you do with them. In unbound or possibly if mandrakes were troops they'd actually be pretty good. Problem is they're elites so they compete for space with things like grotesques, incubi, trueborn and to a smaller extent wracks (if given the ossefactor). The covens units can be taken in their own separate book but those 3 choices might still be better used with incubi and trueborn. Perhaps if dark eldar could have more elite slots this might not be an issue. The covens having so many elite slots might help but i'm unsure. It's a rather shame as i think they are even decently costed for what they do. Wyches are only 2 points less while mandrakes have move through cover, infiltrate, fear, stealth, shrouded and a good amount of shooting. As i said if they were troops people would look at wyches and warriors and take mandrakes almost constantly.