<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated. -The bonuses are weak, and Thousand Sons are actually pretty inefficient at tossing Psychic powers around.
-Many of the formations, Daemon or otherwise, are actually pretty boring/spammy in nature. Heralds Anarchic and Omniscient Oracles are the two best ones, with the first being "3-9 Heralds", the second being "Fateweaver and 1-3 Lords of Change." 3 of the Thousand Sons formations are variants of "3-9 Sorcerers and a Big Sorcerer" and they only have one Auxiliary formation otherwise, which is fundamentally "one Sorcerer and 3-9 units of Tzaangors" (fine, or Spawn), and one of their Cores is "I hope you like spamming Terminators!"
-The Grand Coven's bonuses are actually pretty crummy. You sacrifice Obsec and the ability to reroll Warlord Traits on a table of choice to being locked into the Thousand Sons Table, being allowed to manifest another power per turn (this is usually a trap by the way; Psychic Dice are limited after all), and actually attempting to minimize how many Thousand Sons you actually take.

Anyway, this is an early homebrew/brainstorming about homebrew to revise certain aspects of Thousand Sons in a way that feels more flavorful, more scalable across different points levels, yet doesn't cause them to break 40k to death. As usual, I'd like to know your thoughts one way or another. I have a lot of designer notes I can dump later on, regarding the "whys" of certain proposed changes if any of them look particularly insane. I imagine the big "wait, why" would be the Grand Coven's bonus, but WC is very much a game of linear point-costs for logarithmic gain (barring certain builds of course).

==Psychic Powers==

Tzeentch's Firestorm:Tzeentch's Firestorm is a ML 1 Witchfire with the following profile: Range 18, Strength 5, AP 3, Assault 1, Blast, Warpflame, Inferno: Inferno: A model that the hole of the blast is centered over takes a single S9 AP 2 hits instead of a single S5 AP 3 hit.

Boon of Mutation: Remove the Strength 4 hit from the ability. Allow Boon of Mutation to work alongside Favored Scions. When you roll for a Chaos Boon, you may re-roll one die or the other.

Siphon Magic: Siphon Magic is a WC 2 Blessing that targets the Psyker's unit. If cast successfully, the Psyker's unit gains +1 Strength until the start of the 1k Sons' next Psychic Phase, and the 1k Sons player immediately gains D3+1 Warp Charge.

-Add restrictions to Treason of Tzeentch or other mind-control powers to prevent them from hitting the same unit multiple times in the same Psychic Phase. No stacking with Shroud of Deceit!

=Warlord Traits=

Forbidden Lore: Append the following: If your Warlord was not a Psyker, your Warlord is now treated as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker that must generate a power from the Lore of Tzeentch.

==Wargear==

Warpflamer Weapons: Are equivalent to weapons of their normal type, but with +1 Strength, and Warpflame. This means a Warpflamer is S5 AP 5, a Heavy Warpflamer is S6, AP 4, etc.

Icon of Flame: The simple tweak would be to replace "Soul Blaze" with "+1 Strength & Warpflame", for S5 Inferno Boltguns, S6 Heavy Bolters, etc.

==Thousand Sons Unit Tweaks==

Magnus: Magnus is boss, I'll grant that. The only thing I would change is a requirement that if you do take Magnus, he must be your Warlord, and he may only be fielded in a Thousand Sons detachment. I wrote a list with him, Typhus and Plague Zombies and that's just wrong.

Exalted Sorcerer: The Exalted Sorcerer may choose a Force Weapon of choice instead of just the Staff. Modify Lord of the Silver Tower as follows: Change the attack profile to: Range: Infinite, Strength 7, AP 2, Heavy 1, Barrage, Armorbane. The attack still requires Line of Sight as normal, and is no longer "Once Per Game"

Rubric Marines: The Aspiring Sorcerer gains an additional wound and an Inferno Boltgun to go alongside the Inferno Bolt Pistol. The Aspiring Sorcerer has a Force Weapon of choice. One Rubric Marine may take a Soulreaper Cannon; if the unit numbers 10 or more, a second Rubric Marine may take a Soulreaper Cannon.

Scarab Occult Terminators: The Sorcerer may chose a Force Weapon of Choice; may swap out the Inferno Combi-Bolter for a Power Weapon for 5 points. Scarab Occult Terminators replace their Power Sword for a Power Khopesh (S: User+1, AP 4, Rending). For every 5 models in this unit, up to 2 models may select a Heavy Warpflamer, Soulreaper Cannon, or Hellfyre Missile Rack. Optionally, allow them to be taken as the Terminator requirement for any Detachment requiring Terminators. Use them in a Terminator Annihilation Force or Black Legion Warband.

Tzaangors: Replace Relic Hunters with Bestial Fury: They gain +1 Strength and Initiative if they pass a Leadership check at the start of a Fight Sub-Phase. This replaces their "Bonus Strength/Initiative on Charge" bonus from their formation. Optionally, they could have Scout, to mimic "ambush" tactics of olde WHFB Beastmen.
-The Twistbray has 2 wounds base and Champion of Chaos, can take Melee Weapons from the Chaos Space Marines armory or a Gift of Mutation (no Meltabombs though), and may be upgraded to a ML 1 Psyker for +25 points.

==Thousand Sons Detachment==
=Requirements=
-Models that may take the Mark of Tzeentch must do so.
-Units with any Mark other than Tzeentch may not be taken.
-Daemon Princes must be Daemons of Tzeentch.
-Units that are Daemons of any other Chaos God may not be taken.
-Models with Daemonforge must be Daemons of Tzeentch at an extra +10 points per model.
-Models that may take Veterans of the Long War must do so at no additional cost.

=Benefits=
Legacy of the Rubric: All non-Character models with Veterans of the Long War gain Fearless. All non-character models with Veterans of the Long War that don't already have Relentless have Slow and Purposeful.

Blessing of Tzeentch: Any Thousand Sons unit gains +1 free Warp Charge (but must spend at least one Warp Charge point as normal) when attempting to manifest a Blessing on a Thousand Sons Unit with Veterans of the Long War.

Loremasters of Tzeentch: Psykers in this detachment may generate up to all their powers from the Lore of Tzeentch; they must still generate at least one power from the Lore as normal.

==Grand Coven==
NOTE: Many of these formations will be modified to be a total of "9" units, one Independent Character + 8. This way it's "9" in total, especially since it's fairly possible to run certain characters "solo" in 40k, and it makes getting certain bonuses in 40k more attainable.

NOTE: Favored of Tzeentch is "when the maximum number of units in this formation is taken, models in the formation may re-roll 1s for Saves. Daemons of Tzeentch may instead re-roll all Invulnerable Saving throws instead."

=Restrictions=
-This is a Thousand Sons Detachment, and all units in this Detachment must adhere to the corresponding restrictions.
-Must take at least one Core and one Auxiliary. It may take up to 3 Command Choices.

=Benefits=
Lord of Fallen Prospero: Unchanged
Masters of Arcane Knowledge: Any Psykers from this detachment that suffer from Perils of the Warp may re-roll the result of Perils; the second result still stands. All Characters in this detachment gain +1 Mastery Level; units with Brotherhood of Psykers gain Brotherhood of Psykers (Mastery Level 2) instead.

=Core Formations=
War Cabal: Ahriman/Sorcerer/Exalted Sorcerer, 1-4 units of Rubric Marines, 1-2 Sorcerers or units of Rubric Marines, and 1-2 units of Rubric Marines or Scarab Occult Terminators. They have Favored of Tzeentch and replace Oracular Guidance with
-All is Dust: At the start of the Thousand Sons' player turn, any Thousand Sons Marine unit from this formation with Veterans of the Long War returns D3 Rubric Marine models back into play. these models must be in coherency with the rest of the unit and at least 1" away from any enemy models; any models that cannot be placed in this manner are not placed.

Sekhmet Conclave: Magnus/Ahriman/Daemon Prince/Exalted Sorcerer, 1-4 units of Scarab Occult Terminators, 1-2 Helbrutes or units of Scarab Occult Terminators, and 1-2 Exalted Sorcerers or units of Scarab Occult Terminators. Units from this formation may not take Dedicated Transports. They keep Favored of Tzeentch, and Sorcerous Sigil-Wards is modified so that all 6s to wound/penetrate a unit within 6" of two other units from this formation are treated as 1s.

=Command Formations=
Lords of the Thousand Sons: Magnus, Ahriman, an Exalted Sorcerer, Sorcerer, or Lord.

Rehati War Sect: Magnus and 2-8 Daemon Princes/Exalted Sorcerers, that must be upgraded to ML 3. Units from this formation gain Favored of Tzeentch, Eternal Warrior, and ignore Line of Sight for powers while within 18" of Magnus.

Ahriman's Exiles: Ahriman and 2-8 Exalted Sorcerers/Sorcerers. Same bonuses as in the base Grand Coven.

=Auxiliary Formations=
Replace Daemon Engines and the Helbrute entry from Legion Armory with the Heldrake Terror Pack and Helforged Warpack (Note: They do NOT get Favored of Tzeentch!). Enjoy your Psyker Maulerfiend, for all you folks wanting Q'Sal Mirrorfiends. Optionally, add the Terminator Annihilation Force as an Auxiliary.

War Coven: 1 Exalted Sorcerer, 2-4 units of Chosen, and 1-4 units of Chosen or Chaos Terminators. The Terminators must be at least 5 models strong, and may not be substituted for Scarab Occult Terminators. The formation gets Favored of Chaos, Relentless, the Chosen and Chaos Terminators get Brotherhood of Psykers, and the Formation gains the following benefit:
-Cult Affinity: At army creation, select a Cult for units from this formation to be a part of. A Cult has an associated Discipline, which members of that Cult must generate all of their powers from, overriding the need for models with the Mark of Tzeentch to generate all of their powers from one Discipline. Whenever a Psyker from this Formation that is composed of Thousand Sons from one or more detachments manifests a power from that Cult's discipline, all models in the Psyker's Unit gain a bonus that lasts until the start of the Thousand Son's next Psychic Phase. The Cults are: Corvidae (Divination; all models in the unit gain Precision Shots and Precision Strikes), Pyrae (Pyromancy; all Flamers in the unit gain -1 AP), Pavoni (Biomancy; all models in the unit Feel No Pain), Anathean (Telepathy; all models in the unit gain Interceptor), and Raptorae (Telekinesis; all models in the unit gain Hammer of Wrath, or an additional Hammer of Wrath attack if they already had it).

Metamorphic Mob: Replaces the Tzaangor Warherd. 1 Dark Apostle, 2-4 units of Tzaangors, 1-2 units of Tzaangors or Spawn, and 1-2 units of Tzaangors or Possessed. In exchange, they have the following abilities: Favored of Tzeentch, "Run and Charge", and the following rule:
-Nexus of Change: Every unit in this formation has a Special Ability that extends to all units from this formation within 9" of it. The Dark Apostle grants Zealot to all units from this formation within 9", the Spawn have Hit & Run and grant it to all units from this formation within 9" the Tzaangors gain their Bestial Fury all units from this formation within 9", and the Possessed grant their Vessels of Chaos ability to all units from this formation within 9".

Spireguard Besiegers: 2 units of Chaos Cultists, 1-4 Obliterators/Mutilators/units of Chaos Cultists (note: This means you can only take "solo" Obliterators/Mutilators), and 1-3 Defilers/units of Chaos Cultists. The Formation gains Favored of Tzeentch, and each Mutilator/Obliterator you take must be attached to a Chaos Cultist unit from that formation, replacing the unit's Cultist Champion, and no more than one Obliterator/Mutilator can be attached to each Cultist unit; in exchange, they gain the (Character) subtype and Champion of Chaos special rules. Cultists get free Wargear. Defilers within 6" of one or more Chaos Cultists from this formation may direct attacks onto that Cultist/unit as though it had Look Out, Sir!

One thing I wanted to do is a formation for the Hidden Ones but I am unsure how to go about implementing it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9079608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9079608.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated. ML in powers if you have a few wizards near by for just 1 warp charge.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080146.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 mew28 wrote:
I feel like your buffs are a bit much. For example just giving the rubric sgt an extra wound for free. Siphon magic is all ready pretty great I don't see why it needs to buffed. It lets you cast your ML in powers if you have a few wizards near by for just 1 warp charge.


2 wounds is insurance against Perils. The Sorcerer is a Psyker after all. The issue with Siphon magic is that it's useless as a power if you're ML 1, barring an aggressive reading of the RAW. Meaning in a non-coven list, the Sorcerer will never have a reason to use it ever. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080169.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 MagicJuggler wrote:
 mew28 wrote:
I feel like your buffs are a bit much. For example just giving the rubric sgt an extra wound for free. Siphon magic is all ready pretty great I don't see why it needs to buffed. It lets you cast your ML in powers if you have a few wizards near by for just 1 warp charge.


2 wounds is insurance against Perils. The Sorcerer is a Psyker after all. The issue with Siphon magic is that it's useless as a power if you're ML 1, barring an aggressive reading of the RAW. Meaning in a non-coven list, the Sorcerer will never have a reason to use it ever.


For how cheap the Sorcrer is I don't see why he should get any protection from pearls he essentially gets ML1 around 5 points if you add up the cost of his wargear he has the 10 point sargent stats and the 15 point power weapon. Also well the power might not be all that useful for the ML1 he always has the primus and force he could cast instead. Not every power is good for everyone all the time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080202.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 mew28 wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
 mew28 wrote:
I feel like your buffs are a bit much. For example just giving the rubric sgt an extra wound for free. Siphon magic is all ready pretty great I don't see why it needs to buffed. It lets you cast your ML in powers if you have a few wizards near by for just 1 warp charge.


2 wounds is insurance against Perils. The Sorcerer is a Psyker after all. The issue with Siphon magic is that it's useless as a power if you're ML 1, barring an aggressive reading of the RAW. Meaning in a non-coven list, the Sorcerer will never have a reason to use it ever.


For how cheap the Sorcrer is I don't see why he should get any protection from pearls he essentially gets ML1 around 5 points if you add up the cost of his wargear he has the 10 point sargent stats and the 15 point power weapon. Also well the power might not be all that useful for the ML1 he always has the primus and force he could cast instead. Not every power is good for everyone all the time.


Said nobody with access to ML 1 Telepathy or Divination ever. Or any Eldar player. Or any Daemon player. Or Genestealer Cultist player. Hell, even Orks have a passable discipline, though you never see Weirdboyz due to their inability to take Bikes, and the Zhadsnark/Buzzgob Stompa duo. Tyrants are pretty much the only other army in 40k with such a pointless Primaris, and you don't even care because the Warp Charge is more a secondary bonus on a FMC that happens to shoot.

It's not that the power is "not that useful." It's that the power is literally useless for an ML 1. You gain extra dice...but can't use them as you can't cast any more powers. Force? Why not just cast that as your first power? Tzeentch's Firestorm? How the God of Magic thought a Frag Grenade that occasionally wounds Guardsmen on 5s was a good spell to represent him is still perplexing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080225.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080225.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080244.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 MagicJuggler wrote:

-The Grand Coven's bonuses are actually pretty crummy. You sacrifice Obsec and the ability to reroll Warlord Traits on a table of choice to being locked into the Thousand Sons Table, being allowed to manifest another power per turn (this is usually a trap by the way; Psychic Dice are limited after all), and actually attempting to minimize how many Thousand Sons you actually take.


Siphon Magic: There's a quirk in the wording, in that you're placing extra dice on the Psyker, which can be spent as Bonus Warp Charge, but they're technically not Warp Charge. Based on literal RAW, you could technically use this ability to "store" dice across turns for "extra" Warp Charge. However, this probably was not what the writers intended, and if that's the case, this power is useless for any ML 1 Psyker, as they could store the dice...and do nothing with it for the remainder of the turn. Either Siphon Magic could be FAQ'd/clarified to work according to that interpretation (which would also combo well with an improved Tzeentch's Firestorm), or it could be re-worded so that any friendly Psykers within 6" of the Psyker may spend the dice as bonus warp charge.

Well, one issue solves the other here, doesn't it? If you have Siphon Magic and the Grand Coven, you can still cast powers with the free dice you generate. And, it's worth mentioning this, even though someone else already did: Not all powers should be great all of the time. There's quite a few powers, at least one in every discipline, that are situational at best and highly specific at worst. That's part of why the Primaris power even exists; so that even the worst roll won't be entirely useless. (Unless the primaris itself is useless, but the only useless primaris I can think of is the one for Sanctic Daemonology, and that one's only useless if you're not fighting Daemons.)




Tzeentch's Firestorm:Tzeentch's Firestorm is a ML 2 Witchfire with the following profile: Range 24, Strength 5, AP 3, Assault 1, Blast, Warpflame, Inferno: Inferno: A model that the hole of the blast is centered over takes D3 S9 AP 2 hits instead of a single S5 AP 3 hit. For every unsaved wound this attack inflicts on an enemy unit, you may add one model to a friendly unit of Pink, Blue or Brimstone Horrors within 12" of that enemy unit.

Well gee, that's not crazy overpowered at all. D3 Lascannon hits that specifically hit the model under the blast? That's better than most sniper rifles by far, and in fact is better than most Psychic Powers by a pretty good margin. (The free horrors is just a bonus.)


Boon of Mutation: Remove the Strength 4 hit from the ability. Allow Boon of Mutation to work alongside Favored Scions. When you roll for a Chaos Boon, you may shift the "10s" result by +-1.

I was with you until you added the 'Shifting the 10s place' ability. This guarantees you will never, ever get a bad result, and getting a good result is incredibly unlikely. That's just too powerful by far.

=Warlord Traits=

Forbidden Lore: Append the following: If your Warlord was not a Psyker, your Warlord is now treated as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker that must generate a power from the Lore of Tzeentch.

That's fair.

==Wargear==

Warpflamer Weapons:are +1 Strength and -2 AP (so a Warp flamer is S5 AP 3, Warpflame). They're potentially very powerful, but you still adhere to the normal 7e restrictions on shooting that prevent you from moving models that are not within the 8" range of said Warpflamers.

That seems fine, except you just made Heavy Warpflamers AP2. You need to be careful with high-strength AP2 ignores cover weaponry that can get a half-dozen hits pretty easily, since those are, y'know, crazy powerful.

Icon of Flame: The simple tweak would be to replace "Soul Blaze" with "+1 Strength & Warpflame", for S5 Inferno Boltguns, S6 Heavy Bolters, etc.

That doesn't seem too bad, unless you intend to stack it with the addendum above, giving Heavy Bolters AP2.

==Thousand Sons Unit Tweaks==

Magnus: Magnus is boss, I'll grant that. The only thing I would change is a requirement that if you do take Magnus, he must be your Warlord. There's something weird about him following orders from a lesser-ranked shlub like Abaddon...

I'd agree with that.


Exalted Sorcerer: Modify Lord of the Silver Tower as follows: Change the attack profile to: Range: Infinite, Strength 7, AP 1, Heavy 1, Barrage, Armorbane. The attack still requires Line of Sight as normal, and is no longer "Once Per Game"

Well, this isn't crazy overpowered at all. With Armorbane, you effectively always Penetrate most vehicles, with AP1, you've got a 1/3rd chance of killing them. And you get this attack for free, every turn? WHY? There is absolutely no in-game precedent for this. Orbital Bombardment is once-per-game. The Orbital Bombardment-type-abilities that Inquisition has access to are once-per-game. The Orbital Bombardment datacards in Apocalypse games are once-per-game. There is no reason why you should get this every turn. (Not to mention that it's worth far more than the point cost to make someone an exalted sorcerer.)

Rubric Marines: The Aspiring Sorcerer gains an additional wound and an Inferno Boltgun to go alongside the Inferno Bolt Pistol. One Rubric Marine may take a Soulreaper Cannon; if the unit numbers 10 or more, a second Rubric Marine may take a Soulreaper Cannon.

Disagree with the Sorcerer getting an extra wound, but the other changes seem fine.

Scarab Occult Terminators: For every 5 models in this unit, up to 2 models may select a Heavy Warpflamer, Soulreaper Cannon, or Hellfyre Missile Rack. Optionally, allow them to be taken as the Terminator requirement for any Detachment requiring Terminators. Use them in a Terminator Annihilation Force or Black Legion Warband.

The first part seems fine. I think the second part could cause some conflicts, though, namely because those formations were not balanced with Scarab Terminators in mind, and visa versa.

Tzaangors: Reword Relic-Hunters so that Tzaangors gain Rending in Close Combat when making attacks against a "unit that has at least one model with a Relic." Tzaangors get a new rule called Bestial Fury: They gain +1 Strength and Initiative if they pass a Leadership check at the start of a Fight Sub-Phase. This replaces their "Bonus Strength/Initiative on Charge" bonus from their formation. Optionally, they could have Scout, to mimic "ambush" tactics of olde WHFB Beastmen.

Rending is way too good. Especially if you get the attacks against any unit containing a model which has a relic. Also, a permanent +1 S/I bonus that only needs a successful leadership check is vastly better than a charge bonus.

The Twistbray has 2 wounds base and Champion of Chaos, can take Melee Weapons from the Chaos Space Marines armory or a Gift of Mutation (no Meltabombs though), and may be upgraded to a ML 1 Psyker for +25 points.

So... Completely change what the Twistbray is, both in fluff and the rules? Sure, gotcha.

==Thousand Sons Detachment==
=Requirements=
-Models that may take the Mark of Tzeentch must do so.
-Units with any Mark other than Tzeentch may not be taken.
-Daemon Princes must be Daemons of Tzeentch.
-Units that are Daemons of any other Chaos God may not be taken.
-Models with Daemonforge must be Daemons of Tzeentch at an extra +10 points per model.
-Models that may take Veterans of the Long War must do so at no additional cost.

Why do Daemonforge models get a 4++ that can be upgraded to a 3++ if they're buffed? That's really, really, really good.

=Benefits=
Legacy of the Rubric: All non-Character models with Veterans of the Long War gain Fearless. All non-character models with Veterans of the Long War that don't already have Relentless have Slow and Purposeful.

Fair enough. Was this already in the book? I can't remember off the top of my head.

Blessing of Tzeentch: Any Thousand Sons unit gains +1 free Warp Charge when attempting to manifest a Blessing on a Thousand Sons unit with Veterans of the Long War. Any Thousand Sons unit with Veterans of the Long War that is targeted by a Blessing gains +1 to its Invulnerable Save until the start of the Thousand Sons player's next Psychic Phase. Blessing of Tzeentch can stack multiple times through different blessings, to a maximum of 3+ Invulnerable.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, NO. Giving a free Warp Charge when attempting to manifest a blessing basically means giving an extra Warp Charge to every psyker on the board. Since there's no reason not to, anyone who wasn't already going to cast a power can just use Force (Or whatever other buff they have with them) with 1 die, costing literally nothing, risking nothing, and giving a 50/50 shot at the +1 invuln buff. On top of that, Blessings are the most popular type of Psychic power by far, and you're talking about handing out warp charges like candy for using them. Combine this with Siphon Magic, and you've got an insanely powerful psychic battery charger. (Let's see... I'm just going to cast Siphon Magic for free, wait for a few other units nearby to all cast Force for free, then use my 5 or 6 free dice to cast Endurance, Invisibility, and just for fun, Iron Arm.)


==Grand Coven==
NOTE: Many of these formations will be modified to be a total of "9" units, one Independent Character + 8. This way it's "9" in total, especially since it's fairly possible to run certain characters "solo" in 40k, and it makes getting certain bonuses in 40k more attainable.

That's fair, I suppose. Getting 9 units total is still pretty difficult, and things like the Terminator formation will still be out of the question for 2000 point games.

NOTE: Favored of Tzeentch is "when the maximum number of units in this formation is taken, models in the formation may re-roll 1s for Saves. Daemons of Tzeentch may instead re-roll all Invulnerable Saving throws instead.

With you right up until the end. Daemons of Tzeentch re-rolling all Invulns is just way, way too good, especially with all the psychic powers flying around that could potentially hit them with one of several buffs to give boosts to their invuln saves.


=Benefits=
Lord of Fallen Prospero: Unchanged
Masters of Arcane Knowledge: Any Psykers from this detachment that suffer from Perils of the Warp may re-roll the result of Perils; the second result still stands. All Characters in this detachment gain +1 Mastery Level; units with Brotherhood of Psykers gain Brotherhood of Psykers (Mastery Level 2) instead.

You really like giving out free Warp Charges like candy, don't you?
I've gone over in a different thread how this is a terrible, terrible idea. TSons don't need vastly more Warp Charges than every other army, because the powers they have can already manifest more reliably than everyone else. (They've got a ton of ways to get 3+ manifests now, and they can also take Spell Familiars on their sorcerers for free re-rolls as well.) Not to mention, having scores of generic ML4 psykers, a ML5 Ahriman, and a freakin' ML6 Magnus is just crazy cheese - Aside from giving you a ton of extra Warp Charges (In an army that is already in the top two or three spot for access to Warp Charges,) you also have far more reliability in generating the Psychic Powers that you want.

=Core Formations=
War Cabal: Ahriman/Sorcerer/Exalted Sorcerer, 1-4 units of Rubric Marines, 1-2 Sorcerers or units of Rubric Marines, and 1-2 units of Rubric Marines or Scarab Occult Terminators. They have Favored of Tzeentch and replace Oracular Guidance with
-All is Dust: At the start of the Thousand Sons' player turn, any Thousand Sons Marine unit from this formation with Veterans of the Long War returns D3 Rubric Marine models back into play. these models must be in coherency with the rest of the unit and at least 1" away from any enemy models; any models that cannot be placed in this manner are not placed.

Said it before, I'll say it again: Well that's not crazy overpowered at all. Rubric Marines are 22 point models that are crazy hard to kill, thanks to their 3+4++ that usually will become a 3++ almost immediately, forcing opponents to chip them down over turns rather than killing them all at once. You're talking about handing out something approximating a half dozen free Rubric Marines every turn, depending on how many units are brought.

Sekhmet Conclave: Magnus/Ahriman/Daemon Prince/Exalted Sorcerer, 1-4 units of Scarab Occult Terminators, 1-2 Helbrutes or units of Scarab Occult Terminators, and 1-2 Exalted Sorcerers or units of Scarab Occult Terminators. Units from this formation may not take Dedicated Transports. They keep Favored of Tzeentch, and Sorcerous Sigil-Wards is modified so that all 6s to wound/penetrate a unit within 6" of two other units from this formation are treated as 1s.

You really don't seem to understand game balance at all. It'd be one thing if you forced 6s to be re-rolled (That would STILL be crazy powerful, but we'll ignore that for a moment,) but by forcing them to be 1s, you're just throwing any kind of fairness out the window. Low strength models that rely on volume of attacks? Useless. Rending? Useless. S6 against the Hellbrutes? Useless. Heck, you need S8 just to have a chance of getting a Penetrating Hit. This also makes Magnus practically indestructible, since you now need S6 to even have a chance of wounding him, and even then it's a 1/6th chance.


Rehati War Sect: Magnus and 2-8 Daemon Princes/Exalted Sorcerers, that must be upgraded to ML 3. Models from this formation gain Favored of Tzeentch, Eternal Warrior, and reroll 1s to manifest.

Eternal... Warrior...
...
I give up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080593.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 mew28 wrote:
There are other useless powers. Banishment is 100% useless if you are not playing VS demons. Also well it tazeensh dose not have the best primus it is better then flame breath or assail. Just because it is not best best tree in the game dose not make it useless and needing of a buff. Shipion magic is good on anyone other then an ML1 or an ML2 who is just casting a WC1 power.


False analogies though. Nobody *has* to roll on Telekinesis or Sanctic, and all GK units get Hammerhand anyway. And the point is that ML 1 units on otherwise-overcosted units that *have* to roll on a discipline with a terrible primaris, one power that is useless for ML 1, and another that is mostly useless barring certain shenanigans, is not the same as a discipline that has 2 deathstar-buffing powers and 2 incredible witchfires, or a discipline that while inferior to most BRB ones is at least mostly usable. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080596.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 MagicJuggler wrote:
 mew28 wrote:
There are other useless powers. Banishment is 100% useless if you are not playing VS demons. Also well it tazeensh dose not have the best primus it is better then flame breath or assail. Just because it is not best best tree in the game dose not make it useless and needing of a buff. Shipion magic is good on anyone other then an ML1 or an ML2 who is just casting a WC1 power.


False analogies though. Nobody *has* to roll on Telekinesis or Sanctic, and all GK units get Hammerhand anyway. And the point is that ML 1 units on otherwise-overcosted units that *have* to roll on a discipline with a terrible primaris, one power that is useless for ML 1, and another that is mostly useless barring certain shenanigans, is not the same as a discipline that has 2 deathstar-buffing powers and 2 incredible witchfires, or a discipline that while inferior to most BRB ones is at least mostly usable.

It is not a false analogy though rather then hammerhand you get your witchfire primus, also the unit is worth it. Will a pure rubric army win? No not unless they have nothing by MEC but nether would a pure sternguard veteran army. The high unit price is because you are essentially forced to buy a chaos champion with a power weapon mark and of tzeentch. On the viability of power trees with all the buff the new tzeentch tree is one of the better ones with power like Treason of Tzeentch, Doombolt , Baleful Devotion. I mean is ever power always fantastic no however I don't think every tree is pure slam dunks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9080854.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
Which to put it in a certain way is to say that your normal ML3 sorc is more versatile than your more expensive ML3 Tzeentch sorc since you lose 2 powers from any other discipline you may wish to have instead.

And here I thought Tzeentch was the master of ALL magic, not just its own concocted magics.

Far better it would be to just gain the god specific Primaris and Force, and then choose a discipline with possible focus. After all, its spent points and most god-specific Primaris sucks... at least the CSM ones.

//Edit: Daemon Princes should have Eternal Warrior from the get go... They are fluff-wise literal demi-gods... But then again both greater daemons and daemon princes are kinda wussy compared to how they are supposed to be given the fluff, hell nowadays they can barely deal with a dreadnaught anymore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9084113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9084113.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 Drachdhar wrote:
Major issue I see lies with the Marks of Chaos themselves... Forcing you to generate one god specific power on your psykers with Marks is essentially nerfing their possible potential instead of buffing it, so you pay for a worse psyker.

Which to put it in a certain way is to say that your normal ML3 sorc is more versatile than your more expensive ML3 Tzeentch sorc since you lose 2 powers from any other discipline you may wish to have instead.

And here I thought Tzeentch was the master of ALL magic, not just its own concocted magics.

Far better it would be to just gain the god specific Primaris and Force, and then choose a discipline with possible focus. After all, its spent points and most god-specific Primaris sucks... at least the CSM ones.

//Edit: Daemon Princes should have Eternal Warrior from the get go... They are fluff-wise literal demi-gods... But then again both greater daemons and daemon princes are kinda wussy compared to how they are supposed to be given the fluff, hell nowadays they can barely deal with a dreadnaught anymore.


They *used* to have it in the previous Codex, the Gav-dex, but somehow ended up losing it for reasons unknown. Ah well.

I made a few tweaks, and toned down Firestorm, Siphon Magic, Blessing of Tzeentch, Warpflame Weapons, and the Pyrae Cult bonuses accordingly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9085595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9085595.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated. GJ I think you managed to make turn siphon magic into the best power in the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090436.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
 mew28 wrote:
Well GJ I think you managed to make turn siphon magic into the best power in the game.


This actually nerfs Magnus considerably. Especially the 30 WC build armies you can do if you take Magnus, without actually taking any Thousand Sons. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090453.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
Your biggest problem by far is that you're creating an army that has no drawbacks. Yes, the models are still expensive, but normally the one weakness that Psychic armies have is that they need to generate more Warp Charges than they have Psykers, and that means they have to carefully decide which powers they use and how many dice they're going to put into those powers.

You instead take all of the decision making and tactics away, preferring instead to overcrank everything to the point that there's no reason not to. For example, by giving a free die for Blessings, you make it so that there's absolutely no reason for any gives Psyker to cast 'Force', even if they don't need it - It is literally free. You take the risk away from Boon of Mutation, and then make it far more powerful as well - And, again, it's free to cast, so there are literally no drawbacks.

You don't just overcharge the number of available Warp Charges, you crank them up to near infinity. Every psyker will be able to cast as many powers as they have Warp Charges, because many of the best spells are now free, and Siphon Magic now increases your charge pool pretty massively - And again, with no downside. Magnus now generates 6+d3 Warp Charges instead of 5, because he can cast Siphon Magic for free and will pretty much always manifest it - Even if he doesn't, it costs him nothing!

This isn't even getting into the problem of fighting other armies who might be light on Psychic defense, because you can starve them out of Warp Charges without even dipping into your own pool, which is insane.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090504.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated. WC from your pool anyway (meaning you cast blessings on a minimum of 2 dice).

Currently, you can run Magnus with Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors and get 30 WC. He casts Siphon, they summon or sacrifice and he gets free WC for each summon, and then he opens with the D. Siphon Magic is useless on ML 1 Psykers, and super-good on Magnus. I wrote a sample list that uses Magnus and Typhus together to show it off. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090676.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated. RAI wants the player to use the bonus warp charge for the blessing.
Also, I see that you replaced the "3+ to manifest" with "Re-rolls 1s". While this is technically worse for the Daemon Princes by about 8%, it's also far, far better for Magnus, who now will effectively never fail a roll.
More importantly, though, you give freakin Eternal Warrior and Favoured of Tzeenych to everyone in the formation, and I can't stress enough how insanely overpowered that is. You're not weakening anything there, you're making Magnus and the sorcerers/DPs indestructible for no reason. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090710.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
Siphon --> may target a friendly Psyker model.
Boon --> may reroll 1x die on the Chaos Boon table.
Rubrics --> may take up to 2x Warpflamers at no cost.

I think some of the other issues -- Troops without Obsec status, the value of Soul Blaze -- are better addressed as cross-faction.

Complaining about power level seems a bit premature. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090726.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, I missed that you dropped the 3+ Invuln, but your rule does NOT force players to spend at least 1 warp charge. It says that they get +1 Warp Charge, that's it. No requirement to use that Warp Charge on the blessing itself, not even any indication that the RAI wants the player to use the bonus warp charge for the blessing.
Also, I see that you replaced the "3+ to manifest" with "Re-rolls 1s". While this is technically worse for the Daemon Princes by about 8%, it's also far, far better for Magnus, who now will effectively never fail a roll.
More importantly, though, you give freakin Eternal Warrior and Favoured of Tzeenych to everyone in the formation, and I can't stress enough how insanely overpowered that is. You're not weakening anything there, you're making Magnus and the sorcerers/DPs indestructible for no reason.


Huh, I'll make some edits. I did not mean for Magnus to re-roll.

Favored of Tzeentch's rules are written as "if you take the maximum number of units." So the idea is if you take the maximum number of models. Note of course that in practice it does nothing for the Rehati War Sect in most cases anyway, as not only will you not have enough points to max it out at 1850 points, but Daemons of Tzeentch (meaning Magnus and Daemon Princes) re-roll 1s to saves anyway (hence the re-rolling Invulnerables). So Daemons get to "re-roll all Invulnerable" saves as that's mostly weaker than re-rolling just any save, especially since you can't do an Ectomancy Shield for an automatic 2++ re-rollable anymore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9090762.page GMT Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
Yoyoyo wrote:
How about this?

Siphon --> may target a friendly Psyker model.
Boon --> may reroll 1x die on the Chaos Boon table.
Rubrics --> may take up to 2x Warpflamers at no cost.

I think some of the other issues -- Troops without Obsec status, the value of Soul Blaze -- are better addressed as cross-faction.

Complaining about power level seems a bit premature.


Eh, considering how the core rubric marine was virtually unchanged and 8t was considered one of the worst units in the game, and GW streamed a casualhammer last game where the 1k Sons were tabled by turn 3, I don't view it as particularly premature.

Siphon is tricky. I ultimately tweaked it to be WC 2, and to give back D3+1 WC. It's effectively Power of Darkness from 8th Dark Elves. A funny name for it could be Magic Might even!
I tweaked Warpflamers to be +1 Strength instead of -1 AP, so a base flamer is S5 AP 5, Warpflame, etc. This lets you choose whether to use 1k Sons as a "sweeper" unit or for hunting Power Armor. They're a free swap altogether.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9091818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/711179/9091818.page GMT