Marmatag wrote:
Preface: I am not a tournament player.

1. A foot slogging devastator squad will have challenges. Remember, they can't move and fire in the same turn.

2. 10 man tactical squads, for 140 points, do not include: (a) a combi weapon on the sergeant, (b) a heavy option upgrade, and (c) a specialist option upgrade. The primary reason for going to 10 marines is to take the heavy and the specialist. You should absolutely be using special weapons, if not heavy weapons, in your TAC squads. Additionally, 3 of them at 10 guys is a lot of foot slogging troops. I would suggest rethinking how these would be used.

3. Not sure 2 squads of sternguards are required, especially since you've already got so many boots on the ground. I think they look like your anti-tank, based on the combi-meltas, however they're primarily anti-flesh with their special rounds.

4. Those formations are neat - but unless you've got 2 battle demi-companies to make that strike force to get free dedicated transports, I don't think it's worth creating one. I'd suggest a simple CAD as it gives you flexibility and you don't need a bunch of mandatory units that weigh you down.

5. Not taking centurion devastators in any capacity is probably a mistake, they're one of our best units, if not the best.

6. Being Ultramarines you have access to Tigurius. He's totally cool, check him out.

Can you maybe explain what, thematically, you're going for?

Also battlescribe is really helpful.

 Nevelon wrote:
First, Welcome to Dakka and the Ultramarines.

I’m a big fan of boys before toys, and don’t invest a lot of points in gear, but you need more then just bare bones guys.

While the heavy is optional, tac squads should almost always have a special, and probably a matching combi on the sarge. As an old school fluffy guy, I suggest taking the heavy anyway in 10 man squads. It just feels right. Generally you want all the guns to work together. So MM/M, c-melta (AV fire) GC/G, c-grav (big game could use plasma guns, but not the cannon) or HB/F (c-flamer optional, for hordes). Tac squads should also have transports.

Plasma cannons are in a bad spot right now. Small blasts just don’t work as advertised. While I prefer a 4xLC squad, if you are pulling from only one Dev box, 2xLC, 2xML will do in a pinch. Don’t worry about them being on foot. Just find some nice cover with some good LOS and camp out for the game.

I like my assault squads 5 man, 2xFlamers, with a vet sarge with a power weapon. If there is not a HQ tagging along, probably a sword.

The 5 man c-melta sternguard can work. I’m also partial to a 10 man squad with a pair of HFs. Both in pods. For the terminators, I’d try to stick a chainfist in there. Sometimes you need to rip open a tank. I would not invest heavily in combis that aren’t meltas.

Dread is fine, but might need to be cut for points.

Captain is OKish for what he is.

I recently played a list similar to what you have here (demi co, 1st company) but at 1,850. Some cutting down, here is what I might suggest. Just rough points/gear

Captain. TDA
10 man tac MM/M, c-melta, drop pod
10 man tac GC/G, c-grav, rhino
5 man tac, ML
5 man assault, 2xFlamer, vet sarge w/powersword
5 man dev, 2xLC, 2xML

5 man sternguard, 4x c-melta, drop pod
5 man sternguard, 2xHF, drop pod
5 man terminator, AsC, 1 chainfist.

Should come in at about 1,500.

Blainee wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
First, Welcome to Dakka and the Ultramarines.

I’m a big fan of boys before toys, and don’t invest a lot of points in gear, but you need more then just bare bones guys.

While the heavy is optional, tac squads should almost always have a special, and probably a matching combi on the sarge. As an old school fluffy guy, I suggest taking the heavy anyway in 10 man squads. It just feels right. Generally you want all the guns to work together. So MM/M, c-melta (AV fire) GC/G, c-grav (big game could use plasma guns, but not the cannon) or HB/F (c-flamer optional, for hordes). Tac squads should also have transports.

Plasma cannons are in a bad spot right now. Small blasts just don’t work as advertised. While I prefer a 4xLC squad, if you are pulling from only one Dev box, 2xLC, 2xML will do in a pinch. Don’t worry about them being on foot. Just find some nice cover with some good LOS and camp out for the game.

I like my assault squads 5 man, 2xFlamers, with a vet sarge with a power weapon. If there is not a HQ tagging along, probably a sword.

The 5 man c-melta sternguard can work. I’m also partial to a 10 man squad with a pair of HFs. Both in pods. For the terminators, I’d try to stick a chainfist in there. Sometimes you need to rip open a tank. I would not invest heavily in combis that aren’t meltas.

Dread is fine, but might need to be cut for points.

Captain is OKish for what he is.

I recently played a list similar to what you have here (demi co, 1st company) but at 1,850. Some cutting down, here is what I might suggest. Just rough points/gear

Captain. TDA
10 man tac MM/M, c-melta, drop pod
10 man tac GC/G, c-grav, rhino
5 man tac, ML
5 man assault, 2xFlamer, vet sarge w/powersword
5 man dev, 2xLC, 2xML

5 man sternguard, 4x c-melta, drop pod
5 man sternguard, 2xHF, drop pod
5 man terminator, AsC, 1 chainfist.

Should come in at about 1,500.

So how come you pick 4xLC for your devs? Also one squad of Sternguard can have two heavy weapons? I had no idea! But doesn't it slow them down a lot?

 Marmatag wrote:

Blainee wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
First, Welcome to Dakka and the Ultramarines.

I’m a big fan of boys before toys, and don’t invest a lot of points in gear, but you need more then just bare bones guys.

While the heavy is optional, tac squads should almost always have a special, and probably a matching combi on the sarge. As an old school fluffy guy, I suggest taking the heavy anyway in 10 man squads. It just feels right. Generally you want all the guns to work together. So MM/M, c-melta (AV fire) GC/G, c-grav (big game could use plasma guns, but not the cannon) or HB/F (c-flamer optional, for hordes). Tac squads should also have transports.

Plasma cannons are in a bad spot right now. Small blasts just don’t work as advertised. While I prefer a 4xLC squad, if you are pulling from only one Dev box, 2xLC, 2xML will do in a pinch. Don’t worry about them being on foot. Just find some nice cover with some good LOS and camp out for the game.

I like my assault squads 5 man, 2xFlamers, with a vet sarge with a power weapon. If there is not a HQ tagging along, probably a sword.

The 5 man c-melta sternguard can work. I’m also partial to a 10 man squad with a pair of HFs. Both in pods. For the terminators, I’d try to stick a chainfist in there. Sometimes you need to rip open a tank. I would not invest heavily in combis that aren’t meltas.

Dread is fine, but might need to be cut for points.

Captain is OKish for what he is.

I recently played a list similar to what you have here (demi co, 1st company) but at 1,850. Some cutting down, here is what I might suggest. Just rough points/gear

Captain. TDA
10 man tac MM/M, c-melta, drop pod
10 man tac GC/G, c-grav, rhino
5 man tac, ML
5 man assault, 2xFlamer, vet sarge w/powersword
5 man dev, 2xLC, 2xML

5 man sternguard, 4x c-melta, drop pod
5 man sternguard, 2xHF, drop pod
5 man terminator, AsC, 1 chainfist.

Should come in at about 1,500.

So how come you pick 4xLC for your devs? Also one squad of Sternguard can have two heavy weapons? I had no idea! But doesn't it slow them down a lot?

You can take heavy on sternguard but they lose the ability to use their special ammunition, which is one of the major reasons to take them in my opinion.

4 lascannons is scary. 48" strength 9 shots, four times. It forces your opponent to move their vehicles really carefully.

 Nevelon wrote:
Heavy flamers are assault weapons, and assault cannons are heavy. It’s a mixed up, grimdark, world we live in. So the HF sternguard can hop out of their pod and roast something. HFs are the only gun worth taking the special ammo away from the sternguard for IMHO. And yes, they can take 2 specials/heavies. In a 5 man squad, even. More options then a tac squad, nice to have.

For the Devs it’s a mater of what I want them to do. Most of the time, it’s popping tanks. Lots of armor out there, and not that many places to get guns to shoot at them. Most of my lists are chock full of bolters to mow down people-looking things. But the big guns never want for targets. 4xLC is a specialist role. They have one job, and do a halfway decent job at it. If you mix guns, you gain some flexibility, but at the cost of not being as good at your primary role. The MLs can take shots at tanks, and while not as good as the LCs at it, can work. But if there is a green tide of orks running across the table, in theory frag missiles can help*. The trick to mixing weapons is to make sure everyone can work on the same target and at the same range. So never mix HBs and LCs. They want to target completely different things. Same with MMs and LCs. Same target, vastly different ranges.




* In my experience, they never actually do. Keep shooting kracks. I regret every frag I send downrange. Even in optimal conditions, they still manage to disappoint.

Edit:

HFs work well for almost every target special ammo works on. They ignore cover. S5 wounds most things pretty well. Not as good as the poison ammo, but decent. AP4 will cash out most light troops. Vs. things you are shooting the AP 3 rounds out, odds are you can catch enough guys under the template to just spam wounds on them. Also, you get the wall of death when people charge you. And being sternguard, you are going to spend your life in charge range of things. Because that’s also double-tap range for the bolters.

 Nevelon wrote:
I think the gladius with a demi-co and a 1st co. TF is a good build. Might not be tournament winning, but strong enough for a fun game at the FLGS. Played the same combo myself last Monday (to victory, I might add)

Powerfist will get the job done most of the time. A chainfist is like a melta bomb for the squad. For the few times when multiple powerfist can’t get the job done, all it should take is one or two chainfists to finish it.

The flamers on the squad cost next to nothing, and work really well. I will admit to indulging my sarge there. Assault marines are bully units, Find someone weaker, go beat them up. Having a geared up sarge lets them target slightly tougher units. Also kill them a little quicker, so they can move on to the next one.

Blainee wrote:

More great points! I hope you don't mind answering all these questions, I'm kinda making the most of this.

If I tweak my list a bit, would you mind giving me a few more pointers?

 Nevelon wrote:
Looks pretty good.

In general, you want odd number of pods. You get to drop half first turn, rounding up. Your list right now has 4. What you can do is consolidate the 2 5 man sternguard squads into one, and just combat squad out of the pod. Saves you the cost of the pod.

I’m not a huge fan of DSing assault troops. Terminators in general are a little iffy these days. I’ll often take one squad because I like them, but don’t normally work two into a list. TH/SS can be a tough nut to crack, just be careful about massed fire. Make enough armor saves and those ones will show up.

 Nevelon wrote:
You don’t need to DS them unless you want to. My preferred deployment for assault marines is to advance with jump pacs behind a rhino, and then leap over to assault something.

But for assault terminators, they are slow. They are only going to get into contact with things your opponent wants them to. They do act like an area denial tool. Get within a foot or so, be hammered. But in general that’s letting your foe dictate the pace of the game. He chooses who and when they will be engaged.

DSing them is a little better. Things can either flee, or stand. Causing them to move is a win, as most things are less effecting after moving. If they stand, you get to crush them. Assuming to survive the turn of fire. Which can be rough. Also assuming they land on target.

When I put my assault terminators in a list, I use a land raider. Very expensive points wise, and has a host of flaws. But I love the big old brick. Makes a great centerpiece to a mechanized list. And still works in a less competitive meta.

If you are filling out a 1st company TF, more sternguard is always a good answer. Vanguard vets are not bad either. Some things just need to be punched in the face, and they do a decent job of it. They suffer from a lot of the same problems as terminators, in being very expensive 1W T4 models. But at least they are fast and have a lot of options. But be careful with them by limiting who can see them until it’s too late, and they can serve you well.

Blainee wrote:
What if I were to take the drop pod away from the dreadnought and split the sternguard into two squads, then they can both have drop pods. Then I also don't need the assault terminators to finish the 1st company

 Nevelon wrote:

Blainee wrote:
What if I were to take the drop pod away from the dreadnought and split the sternguard into two squads, then they can both have drop pods. Then I also don't need the assault terminators to finish the 1st company

That works. Sharing a pod and CSing out of it is something you can do, not that you need to. Just something to keep in mind when you re-jigger the list around.

AsC dreads can work well on pods, but don’t require it. Unlike MM dreads, who I’d not want to footslog.