Waaaghpower wrote:
Aaaand here we reach the biggest problem with discussing 40k fluff specifics: Contradictions are everywhere. Because everything that I have read states that the Black Legion ARE the Sons of Horus, and they repainted their armor in grief after their Primarch died. Other legions may have supplemented them, but according to what I've read they are almost entirely Sons of Horus.

Waaaghpower wrote:
It also refers to them becoming the Black Legion as a 'Transition', but is pretty clear that when they were formed, they were pure Sons of Horus. Sure, other traitor legions joined them later, but at this point in the history, NONE of the Traitor Legions have had time to really swell their ranks. Exact numbers aren't given, (They never are...) but it's pretty clear that the other Traitor Legions didn't just dissolve entirely to join the BL. (After all, if they had, then they wouldn't be around anymore.) And since all those legions had taken pretty significant casualties as well before even having the chance to break apart and lose members to the Black Legion, it would be a HUGE stretch of the imagination to assume that it ever got back up to pre-Heresy strength.
Also, when describing the size of the Black Legion, the phrase "The largest force of Traitor Legions seen since the Heresy" is used. If it were bigger than it ever was, then the phrase would be "The largest force of Traitor Legions ever seen", so we know they never reached or surpassed their size in the Heresy.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Now, as to the number of casualties in the Fall of Cadia: You're right that specific numbers are never given, but wrong that it's wild speculation. See, there ARE some numbers given, and many specific fights shown. For example, when 50 Dark Angels are marching through enemy territory to get to a fortified position: We see a short seen where they are attacked by an unknown number of Khorne Berserkers, and absolutely demolish them. I say 'Unknown', but it mentions that there are dozens of dead, and only a couple of those are Dark Angels.

The text also implies that this fight was one of many, and that they'd been killing Traitors for a very long time, while having taken less then a dozen casualties in entirety themselves. A moment later, they shoot down a Helldrake while only losing a single man. (An Apothecary, sure, but a single man.) Then, they get attacked, and are rescued by some Space Wolves. This is not the only such instance, but it's the best one available for the numbers given.



That is Dark Angels walking through ENEMY TERRITORY, with no defensive ground, killing Chaos Space Marines at a ratio of 12:1. Even if we assume that this is a huge outlier, it doesn't make any sense to assume that their performance would go down once they were in a well fortified, defensible location, working alongside allies to shore up their protection.

There are, as mentioned, 50 of those Dark Angels, plus many hundred (but less than a thousand,) other Space Marines. If we assume that those Dark Angels are just twice as good as everyone else, and they were performing twice as good as they normally do thanks to good luck or something, that still means that the average Space Marine is going to inflict casualties at a ratio of 3:1 when fighting in open ground, and that the average Dark Angel was going to inflict 6:1 casualties. That's at least 2,000 dead CSM, at the absolute lowest estimates for the number of loyalist marines and the absolute lowest ratio of killed to dead. That's ALSO assuming that zero Chaos Space Marines are on the Black Tower when it is destroyed, zero Chaos Space Marines are killed by guardsmen or Skitarii, and it is not including the casualties inflicted when Trazyn unleashed another wave of Space Marines and other extra-good warriors on the most vulnerable part of Abaddon's attacking force.

So yeah, I'm speculating, but I'm speculating as accurately as is possible given the information given in GW's books. It's more likely that the casualties dealt by Space Marines remained more constant, probably at 6:1 casualties in defensible positions. It's more likely that there WERE some CSM on the Black Tower, if only a few. It's more likely that the guardsmen, Sisters of Battle, and Skitarii did kill quite a few, and even if Guardsmen killed the Space Marines at a ratio of 10,000 to 1, that's still going to be another 10,000 dead CSM. If I'm to make an average estimate, then the casualties are going to be somewhere in the 20,000-30,000 range for the CSM, possibly higher.

And, as I mentioned above, this is not including any casualties from the rest of the 13th crusade.

Check my math. I dare you.

The Black Legion he created were no longer merely the remnants of the Sons of Horus, and counted among their ranks many powerful warlords and traitor space marines.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Now, in regards to my math: Like I said in my post (if you'd bothered to read the whole thing,) there are many instances throughout the book, I just used one example because it had the largest source of hard numbers. Every time where Space Marines are mentioned fighting, the text almost invariably refers to 'Traitors', and when it doesn't, it's pretty explicit about who else it is referring to. (And no, that doesn't mean traitor guardsmen or anything else, because those are always referred to as 'cultists'.) Other instances of battle, hard numbers are dropped in favor of mentioning the amount of casualties in prose, with the broadest terms possible, but even then it's made clear that the Space Marines are extracting massive tolls for each single Marine who is killed. (And while Daemons do show up, the book treats it like a rare and special occurrence, and makes a very clear note of it whenever it happens.)

Furthermore, I chose the example I did because it makes a pretty stark point: The Dark Angels in that example were fighting in the absolute worst possible conditions. They had low visibility, were surrounded on all sides, had zero cover or other defensive ground, and had been fighting constantly for days. That was what they looked like in the worst possible conditions for battle.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Finally, the Imperial forces deployed at the Cadian Gate were indeed a large portion of the Imperium's forces in and around the Eye of Terror, but they were *not* a large part of the Imperium's forces in general. Less than a billion Guardsmen were stationed on the planet. Less than a thousand Space Marines were stationed there. In the universe of 40k, losing a single planet when the entire amassed armies of the strongest force of Chaos is pretty minimal, especially when you consider that, on top of the very high number of CSM losses, the Chaos forces also lost a Warlord, multiple Reavers and Warhounds, and a Black Tower, all of which are priceless relics in their own right.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

There is no contradiction or inconsistency. The Black Legion supplement clearly states:

The Black Legion he created were no longer merely the remnants of the Sons of Horus, and counted among their ranks many powerful warlords and traitor space marines.

The Black Legion has never been a continuation of the Sons of Horus, that is made very clear in both the Black Legion supplement as well as Talon of Horus, the book that details beginnings of the Black Legion.

When Abaddon finally slew the prime clone of Horus and destroyed Fabius Bile's laboratories, he also destroyed what remained of his former master; his father. The Sons of Horus finally died, their past washed away by the blood of the vile abominations.

The transition from Sons of Horus to Black Legion was not instantaneous. Abaddon gave the Legion this new name in the aftermath of purging the clones...

From Abaddon's burning need for revenge, the Black Legion was born, Abaddon gathering together the surviving Sons of Horus to dominate countless cursed stars within the Eye.

You have a preconceived idea for which you are cherrypicking "evidence" from a book that not only is already being very selective in what engagements it details (as detailing the entire war would be an impossible task) but that also does not actually really provide the evidence you would need to come to a solid conclusion as it never mentions any specific numbers. Sorry, but that just isn't reliable. If you want me to, I can also cherrypick sources from the book to paint the picture that the loyalists were absolutely slaughtered and that every traitor death came only at the cost of many loyalist lifes.

The overall tone of the book is that the defenders of Cadia are constantly suffering massive crippling losses. They are losing entire regiments and Space Marine companies in a desperate struggle and even though they make the attackers pay a heavy price in return, it is ultimately futile as it is not enough to really diminish the forces of Chaos and only delays Abbadon's victory.

Also, the book often speaks of traitors in general, without specifying exactly what they are. It is made clear that the armies of Chaos are not just chaos space marines, but also daemons and legions of cultists. If traitor astartes show up however, that and the legion or warband they hail from is usually mentioned explicitly. Daemons are not a special occurance, they show up right in the beginning and it is clear they are there for the entire battle right up until the pylons are activated and return immediately after the pylons are shattered.

Finally, there is one instant where an actual, hard number regarding casualties is given. It is when the Black Fleet fires upon the retreating Imperials and destroys several ships, killing many of the evacuated Imperial forces in the process. The book then says: "Thus another quarter of a million fell to the Black Fleet's guns"
That is 25000 casualties in a single attack. Note the use of the word 'another' indicating that similarly high casualties have been suffered in earlier attacks. In total, of all the Imperium's forces on Cadia, fewer than 2,5 million escape. Seems not so one-sided in the loyalist's favour now, does it?

The Imperium has been drawing troops from all over the galaxy to defend Cadia, up to the point that it has been forced to abandon other campaigns. That does indicate that the forces deployed around the Eye of Terror and the Cadian Gate are in fact a significant part of the Imperium's entire force. Significant enough to be a major drain on available forces on the other side of the galaxy. Also, don't forget that the battle in Fall of Cadia is only the second and smallest battle of those on Cadia. The majority of Cadia and the defending Imperial forces had already been destroyed in the first battle. Also the loss of Cadia far outweighs the loss of a few titans or even the Will of Eternity. Cadia is the most important planet in the Imperium after Terra itself.

Also, more than a thousand Space Marines were deployed. There are 35 Chapter noted as being present, many with more than one Company. Even assuming every Chapter sent only a single Company, that still brings us to 3500 Space Marines.