<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000 40K is supposed to be released this summer. Some are waiting for it impatiently, some are afraid of it. The rumor has it that the rules will become more simple, however not that simple, as in Age of Sigmar. Besides, they say that all special rules and weapon features will now live in the units’ warscrolls, just like they do in AoS.

Today we’ll talk about the problems of the modern Warhammer 40K and the reasons to wait for the new edition. Note that the author’s point of view may differ from yours, and it’s totally Ok.

It’s too complicated. Let’s start with the most obvious one. Warhammer has been always reach with different special rules – complementing, clarifying and copying each other. Sure, it’s not a problem for the experienced players, who know all of them by heart. But how many obstacles does it create for the beginners? You need to find unit’s page, look at the rules list, open the Rulebook, find those special rules, understand, how they all work together. Repeat all these steps again when you realize that your detachment also gives you some special rules. And your Warlord. Moreover, there are some unique rules for the particular units. And it would be nice if you knew the opponent’s rules. Maybe he wants to cheat on you… Al these steps dramatically increase the threshold of enter and it’s not profitable for Games Workshop themselves.

They tried to change it at the beginning of the 7th edition – all the unique special rules were substituted with the standard ones from the Rulebook. And this effort failed. First – the rules became more boring. Instead of the description of wild fury, with has risen in the hero, who’s family was killed by Chaos, which makes him hate all daemons and re-roll to hit in close combat, there’s a simple Hatred special rule in his profile. Well, the output is the same, but it has completely killed the roleplay and the interest.

Second, all the interesting rules, which couldn’t be changed were simply removed. This is extremely actual for the Dark Eldar. For example, Night Shields used to reduce the shooting distance for units targeting the boat with them. This made you maneuver and think hard about the positioning of your transports. Also, it greatly represented the concept of Dark Eldar army. Now it’s just Stealth special rule. Maybe, more effective, but far less interesting.


Then, this tendency changed in the opposite way – all codex, starting with Mechanicum and Eldar had as many special rules, as it was possible. Standard rules, plus 1-2 unique for each unit, plus unique rules for the detachment, plus formations. As a result – all new books are much stronger that previous ones. This leads us to the next problem – the balance.

The solution is quite simple and it’s already working in the Age of Sigmar. (We are moving in that direction, right?) All special rules are presented at the unit’s page. Also, there’s a nice description of how they work. And they represent the features of the unit really great. Nothing gets more complicated since all the rules follow the same logic, nonetheless they are named differently. It means that generally, hammers hit oh 4+ and wound on 3+, swords – contrariwise. A shield grants re-roll 1s in defense, double weapons – in attack. Heavy iron armor grants 4+ save, but warriors move 5 inches – slower than usual 6. All these patterns are not stated directly, but they are obvious and you can guess unit stats by only looking at it.

Balance. It’s gone. And so it goes. Even in friendly play there’s no balance. You can happily fight irks against Chaos, taking every unit you like and assume appropriate. But then comes the Tau player, who might also take the units he likes. And he wipes you out after 2 turns. His units are just incommensurably more powerful, whatever he takes. Who likes such games? And there are also Eldar. And Mechanicus convocation. The other races have to create disgusting illogical allies, coat themselves with magic (another problem, btw) and lose their mind trying to outperform the opponent, who’s just taken what he likes. This has produced standard archetypes for every faction.

Yes, you have a whole book of nice, interesting units. But you have to ignore them and take the same stuff again and again if you want to win. Because, even in the strongest codex there are solutions so obviously powerful, that nobody will look at the other choices. Everything gets even worse if you play for the weak faction. This has been caused by the fact that all the books were released in different time an under the different supervision. In this case, the whole reboot of the game system is the only way. Hard, but reasonable way.

Arms race. Well, you’ve assumed powerplay. You play only for the victory and don’t care about miniatures and background. You may even play with corks as space marines. And how does the game look? The unit shoots. Re-rolls failed throws. Wound. Re-rolls failed throws. The target rolls armor\invuln. Re-rolls failed throws. Rolls FnP. RE-ROLLS. And there’re about 20 shots, since the only instrument that always works, is a bucket of dice in shooting phase. Before that you’ve shot with other 3-4 squads. And before, there was a half-hour psychic phase. The game turns into endless dice throwing. Half of these throws isn’t needed. In AoS there are far less of them. And it could be even less. For example – why do we need to-wound roll? Ok, you’ve hit. What do you mean – it didn’t wound? If you hit but don’t wound, it means that the wound was saved by the armor, or skin. But why do we have an armor save?

Magic. It’s horrible as it’s now. Really. It’s OK, if you have a couple of support psykers in your army. But there’s also an arms race in the psychic phase! So, you need to take a lot of them. And there are some factions, which either play with heavy magic, or don’t play at all. And it’s endless dice throwing again. (You don’t buy a pile of cards for each psyker, do you?) When my daemon opponent starts to generate psychic powers, I usually leave to get some tea, to have a nap, or to visit my second cousin. Let him cheat on me. It’s better to give him his D strength than die of boredom. But when he starts to cast all of these…there’s no way out – you have to stay there and react.

The magic in 6th edition was definitely much better. Not so effective, but it didn’t take so much time and didn’t break the balance so much. It’s still better in Age of Sigmar, nonetheless it has enough depth and potential.

Background. Even Games Workshop themselves realize that the story is stagnating too much. The changes of the recent Gathering Storm campaign prove that. Let’s hope that the new edition will add a new dimension to this story. Why not to siedge Terra? Or switch off Astronomicon. Kill some key characters, whom GW doesn’t want to re-issue miniatures. Well, among all, it’s the easiest thing to do.

So, let’s hope that Games Workshop can learn on their own mistakes, they’ve accumulated all the best ideas and the 8th edition will bring real improvement. And don’t be afraid of sigmarisation. As you can see, it’s not that bad. Besides, GW’s policy is getting better these days. What do you think?

Find more in our blog:http://warzone40k.com/warhammer-new-edition

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267110.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000 40K certainly needs an overhaul. And while it may be able to take certain things from the AoS system such as the Rending Mechanics. It would be horrible if it was a direct port.

The magic system in AoS is bad and boring and adds no tactical depth to the game. Like wise the 40K system sucks because it was a terrible port over from warhammer fantasy 7th edition which causes the psychic phase to be skewed heavily in favour of the one who brings a tonne of psykers.

I've said it before, 40K is not a hard game to learn by any stretch of the imagination. It's just convoluted and weighed down by a plethora of needless and redundant special rules. Making it like AoS would just gut me because that game is not a good game. It's boring and overly simplistic. Shooting in combat? Random turn sequence? Cover increases your armour save? Give me a break.

40K should be become a heavy tactical game. Positioning and movement should matter more. In game decisions should matter more, not just spamming the most OP unit in the book.

Here's the one and only reason to wait to see what 8th edition brings:

They've already ruined one franchise with AoS, there's a good chance they could do it again. So wait. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267261.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
The magic system in AoS is bad and boring and adds no tactical depth to the game.
It's nearly exact same as it was in 40k 5th edition and lower! Except instead of rolling an exact leadership test it has a specific number to go for.. Also if you think it adds no tactical depth you've never actually seen how it's useful for the various aspects.

Regardless, I'm waiting in general because I want to see things I love be useful again. I miss using Helbrutes and all sorts of walkers that aren't good because they just get chipped to death and die. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267274.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
It's nearly exact same as it was in 40k 5th edition and lower! Except instead of rolling an exact leadership test it has a specific number to go for.. Also if you think it adds no tactical depth you've never actually seen how it's useful for the various aspects


Yea exactly...boring and bad. I've already talked about this at length in the Psychic phase thread on this board. It should have been an altered 8th Edition Fantasy magic system.

I've seen and played with it. I know exactly how it works.

Again, I'm not 12 years old. I can manage a little bit more than basically two spells and a couple of dice rolls. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267280.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
 Brutus_Apex wrote:


Here's the one and only reason to wait to see what 8th edition brings:

They've already ruined one franchise with AoS, there's a good chance they could do it again. So wait.


That's a stretch. The new AoS is quite good, and really taking off in terms of a miniatures game. You could argue they completely overhauled it or replaced it, but ruined is a strong word.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267285.page GMT 5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
And AoS is currently a very good game. General's Handbook and FAQ fixed a lot of things. I'd say it's a stronger ruleset than 40k.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267287.page GMT 5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
 Verviedi wrote:
I spent this entire post looking for the inevitable "click on my blog!" link at the end. When I found it, I did a little cheer.

And AoS is currently a very good game. General's Handbook and FAQ fixed a lot of things. I'd say it's a stronger ruleset than 40k.


Aye. It was definitely a mess in it's first reveal, but GH and the FAQ fixed a lot. I've quite enjoyed what I've seen]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267310.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267310.page GMT 5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
I feel a few small hints that its not; almost like a writing 'accent'.

if its not your first language, then I wanted to say great work! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267317.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267317.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000 40K is awesome, and I love playing it with the right people. But I refuse to play at another tournament or a random pick-up game until several things get changed. Most of the rules and things I am okay with, as they are all abstractions and representations of how things might work. My biggest problems with 40K right now are the following items:

- The Psychic Phase and the power of Psykers -
Back in 5th edition, Psykers added some minor buffs or had some cool powers that could help your army out. They did not take so long to play with, nor did they have the sheer power and potential to break the game (at least in my memory of the game). I would like to see the Psychic shenanigans toned down quite a bit, as they can win the game on their own, and takes more time too than necessary (IMHO).

- HQs =/= Super-heavies & Gargantuan creatures -
I can see why Primarchs are Lords of War, as they melee monsters in addition to being massive force multipliers for their armies, but I find it weird that Ghazgul Thraka, Marneus Calgar, or Gabriel Seth, are considered equal in army construction to a Knight, or a Warhound Titan, or a Baneblade. I find it annoying to have to ask a tournament organizer ahead of time to use one of these former HQ choices in the army when this could be fixed. Unless these characters get buffed up to match a Primarch, how about using a similar mechanic to the Lords and Heroes options from Warhammer Fantasy? That way we can have the super-beefy characters without having to worry about people bringing in the big stuff, and have room for SM Chapter Masters compared to SM Captains. And speaking of super-heavies...

- Having Apocalypse units/models in regular games -
Back in the day, Apocalypse was a really cool, special occasion kind of game. Now, anybody can make any game feel like Apocalypse. That special, awesome feeling went away with 7th edition allowing the big stuff in regular games.

- Keeping up with all the rules and finding the rules -
I really wish I didn't have to bring so many books to a game. I would prefer it to be just Rulebook, Army book (additional for any Allies), and print-offs of the latest FAQs & Erratas.

- Formations and Detachments making things more powerful -
I like the "idea" of formations as alternatives to the traditional CAD, but something was lost in the execution. Mk. 2 Warmahordes had really cool theme lists that provided points discounts and changes to army structure and composition, but they didn't seem to break the game near as much as is happening in 40K. I would like to see these tweaked somewhat.

The issue is that everyone has in their mind what they think 40K "should" be. Maybe it's based on their interpretation of the fluff, or it's based on their experiences playing 40K or other games over the years. But whatever happens, some people are going to love it, some are going to hate it, and others will just keep on playing regardless of their reaction to the rules. And that is okay. I have been focusing on Age of Sigmar since first hearing of the rumors for a new edition of 40K, and I have been enjoying it. I too was bitter about the removal of Warhammer Fantasy for Age of Sigmar, but I got over it, tried it out, and have been enjoying it. in 40K, since starting playing back in 5th edition 7 years ago, I have seen it change in dramatic ways, good in some ways, bad in others.

That said, here are some things from Age of Sigmar I think are done well:

- Rend characteristic over AP value removing save -
By changing how AP values work with saves, you unlock two things in your game: 1 - your tough models (3+ and 2+ Armor Saves) get a chance to still save against really powerful weapons, and 2 - it gives your weapons a more fine-tuned way to determine its strength and power against targets.

- Large model damage tables -
I like in AoS how the big monsters become less effective as they take more damage. By designing a chart for each unit, it gives you a chance to better regulate how effective vehicles become without a random table to roll on, and it gives you a way to make Monstrous creatures lose effectiveness as they begin to take damage. Now, will such tables work with the Hull Points and AV system currently in place? Maybe. I would just prefer the static charts over the random tables

- Damage on weapon power -
I like the idea of some weapons being more powerful than others, but that is lacking now. Why is it that a failed save against a lucky Lasgun wound on a Carnifex does as much damage as a Demolisher cannon or Meltagun? While in AoS, the damage mechanic carries overkill wounds into other models in the unit, I think that a Damage mechanic that the model suffers so many Wounds on a failed save would be a nice addition.

Based on how GW has been handling things over the past year, I am excited to see what any change occurs, even if they completely disregard everything I just posted. If all else fails, I'll just write up my own rules and play with them ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267423.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
They did not take so long to play with, nor did they have the sheer power and potential to break the game (at least in my memory of the game)
One of the strongest powers in 5th was the Lash of Slaanesh, which 'pulled' a unit 2D6 in a direction. Very commonly used to pull units out of cover or into charge range. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267450.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000
It’s too complicated. Let’s start with the most obvious one. Warhammer has been always reach with different special rules – complementing, clarifying and copying each other. Sure, it’s not a problem for the experienced players, who know all of them by heart. But how many obstacles does it create for the beginners? You need to find unit’s page, look at the rules list, open the Rulebook, find those special rules, understand, how they all work together. Repeat all these steps again when you realize that your detachment also gives you some special rules. And your Warlord. Moreover, there are some unique rules for the particular units. And it would be nice if you knew the opponent’s rules. Maybe he wants to cheat on you… Al these steps dramatically increase the threshold of enter and it’s not profitable for Games Workshop themselves.

And here's how it probably should read:

It’s too complicated. Let’s start with the most obvious one. Warhammer has always had a problem with the reach of its different special rules – complementing, clarifying and copying each other. Sure, it’s not a problem for the experienced players who know all of them by heart. But how many obstacles does this create for beginners? You need to find unit’s page, look at the rules list, open the Rulebook, find those special rules, understand, how they all work together, then repeat all these steps again when you realize that your detachment also gives you some special rules. And your Warlord. Moreover, there are some particular units that have their own unique rules. And it would be nice if you knew your opponent’s rules. Maybe he/she wants to cheat you… All these steps dramatically increase the game's barrier to entry, which limits Games Workshop's profit.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267505.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267505.page GMT 5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000 OP a little bit of a grammatical break, the little flag in their profile says they're from Russia. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267532.page GMT Re:5 reasons to wait for the 8th edition of Warhammer 40 000

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Give the OP a little bit of a grammatical break, the little flag in their profile says they're from Russia.

Normally I would, but since there's a link to a website, then it suggests that this person is trying to improve site traffic. As such, I'm trying to help out, and these are purely constructive suggestions - not trying to harp on them at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/721381/9267533.page GMT