sykl wrote:
I have yet to actually play a game of 8e yet, however after reading over the index I can't help but feel like Chaos in general got the shaft. No more marks for undivided infantry, daemon engines with their already low BS getting -1 to hit with heavy weapons, T-sons and death guard losing access to half the codex. Can someone who has already played 8e with chaos chime in? I want to hear how things are looking on the table top.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think traditional CSM have a poor stats vs cost ratio.

Consider the Forgefiend: 197 pts with 3 ectoplasmas will put out 6 plasma shots on average at BS 4+ and 24" range. A Nid Exocrine is 32 pts more, has the same output on the move, standing still it goes to BS 3+ and 12 plasma shots, more than twice the firepower, and has a 36" range base and +1 Toughness - it's actually the equivalent of AV14.

I do love that Daemon Engines hit on 4+ rather then the usual 5+ thanks to WS3 no longer being a thing however.

 McGibs wrote:

I do love that Daemon Engines hit on 4+ rather then the usual 5+ thanks to WS3 no longer being a thing however.

What? Unless you were fighting WS6 or higher (or WS2 or lower), daemon engines always hit on 4+ in 7th.

 McGibs wrote:

I do love that Daemon Engines hit on 4+ rather then the usual 5+ thanks to WS3 no longer being a thing however.

What? Unless you were fighting WS6 or higher (or WS2 or lower), daemon engines always hit on 4+ in 7th.

Arachnofiend wrote:
It's worth mentioning that while Marks don't do anything, neither does Chapter or anything else for sub-factions. It's basically just putting Chaos and Space Marines on an even playing field with everyone else (at least until Codices come out and Chaos gets our Marks and Necrons get special rules for individual Dynasties).

DaPino wrote:
As someone put it nicely: Water is wet, fire is hot, Chaos space marines still suck.

I've got to give GW props though, there're a lot of models already that I don't intend on getting off my shelve anymore until a codex drops and I'm looking at buying laspreds instead.

 sykl wrote:
I have yet to actually play a game of 8e yet,

 CthulhuDawg wrote:
I wish there was more overlap with the "Nurgle" keyword for buff bubbles between Nurgle Daemons and Death Guard but otherwise I've been enjoying my new Plague Marines.

You can also apply daemon spells to these units. You can have your herald not only boost Magnus' STR to 9, but also hit him with 'boon of change'
I would argue that there is more synergy between daemons and CSM than imperial units.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You can also apply daemon spells to these units. You can have your herald not only boost Magnus' STR to 9, but also hit him with 'boon of change'
I would argue that there is more synergy between daemons and CSM than imperial units.

The Changeling is incredible for Tzeentch Daemon units, given the 9" -1 to hit in all phases thing, but say a Warp Talon squad at S5 -1 to hit and boosted by Boon of Change would be the sort of interesting synergy I like to see.

For now though I am disappointed by the lessened synergy alongside pure CSM which will harm our undivided brothers, but for now we will make due. We always do.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You can also apply daemon spells to these units. You can have your herald not only boost Magnus' STR to 9, but also hit him with 'boon of change'
I would argue that there is more synergy between daemons and CSM than imperial units.

The Changeling is incredible for Tzeentch Daemon units, given the 9" -1 to hit in all phases thing, but say a Warp Talon squad at S5 -1 to hit and boosted by Boon of Change would be the sort of interesting synergy I like to see.

For now though I am disappointed by the lessened synergy alongside pure CSM which will harm our undivided brothers, but for now we will make due. We always do.

There are other nice things as well.
For example, Nurgle Daemon Engines can benefit from the tallymaster....

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There's at least something for everyone, though Khorne has the least benefits then comes Slaanesh. A pity that the Masque and Skulltaker don't boost X Daemons instead. Khorne's generally stuck with the Greater Daemon and Herald Boosts while Slaanesh does have the extra fight in psyker phase with ability.

Nurgle and Tzeentch have amazing options when it comes to boosting friendly CSM daemons.

 sfshilo wrote:
Guys CSM daemon units do not have the right faction and this was ruled on by the "naming a regiment blood angels" nonsense in the developer guide.

Daemon in CSM is a keyword not a faction keyword so they don't mix unless GW puts out a specific FAQ that says so...

 labmouse42 wrote:

It's important to stop thinking of your army as CSM, but overall as Chaos. You can throw a renegade knight into your army with no problem at all.
In this regard, Chaos has a lot of options -- the second largest selection in the game.

SilverAlien wrote:
Generally it's not any worse than post legion except for DG and I assume tsons. Tsons is even fairly workable if you rely on demonic support to help out (such as getting an actual chaff unit).

The biggest advantage over normal space marines is the relative ease with which we can use deepstriking. The Khorne icon of wrath and warptime can both make charging out of deepstrike much more likely and chaos can actually manage deepstrike melta without needing drop pods thanks to raptors/terminators (even without the melta damage reroll this is nice). Even rapid fire plasma/inferno combi bolters can really leave an impact.

The cult units are also pretty nice. Noise marines are good for clearing normal infantry, zerkers are brutal in combat. Rubrics... well they need to be fielded in large units to avoid the sorcerer tax (and get soulreapers). If you do that, the unit is suddenly more vulnerable to morale. Plague marines are just too expensive.

The biggest issue so far is the lack of snipers which really hurts against some armies. The only removal options are deepstriking, units with fly, and psychic powers (infernal gaze from CSM and bolt of change from demons). None of these options are very good sadly, but they are there.

The other issue with a "pure" CSM army is the lack of affordable chaff. Cultists are weirdly overpriced compared to what other armies can field. On the other hand, brimstone horrors are cheap, tough, and can be more dangerous than you might think, filling this niche rather nicely.

Oh and demon princes are apparently made of win from what I hear. Haven't tested them out yet.

drakerocket wrote:
If you want to focus on possessed, oblits, csms or mutilators....I guess have a day? If that's what your army looks like, then the codex doesn't favor you. But I (and plenty of other folks) actually think chaos is upper middle and maybe even top tier for the first time in a decade.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Just take some Mutant Rabble. 4 points per model, 50 models max per unit. 200 points for 50 models. Sure they will die by the handfuls but with an Enforcer they'll live a while. Renegades and Heretics may not be good on their own but as support for CSM they are awesome for filling in slots.

zerosignal wrote:

DaPino wrote:
As someone put it nicely: Water is wet, fire is hot, Chaos space marines still suck.

I've got to give GW props though, there're a lot of models already that I don't intend on getting off my shelve anymore until a codex drops and I'm looking at buying laspreds instead.

Played five games last week as Death Guard - didn't win a single one.

Two just weren't even close (vs. Necron silver tide and Cawl/Mechanicum with triple-phos kastellans).

Just not even comparable in power.

Plague Marines cost too much, terminators are ok but need to be melta-cide or have a sorcerer in termie armour to cast warptime. Heldrake did work some games but others just died fast (two is better, but they are a bit expensive). Helbrute is slow, and gets negs to hit when moving (duh). Bikers are ok, bit expensive again, but they can fire special and combi-bolters (and have bolt pistols for cc - which can switch out for chainswords).

Oblits are... ok, being able to DS in is good, but when you roll three 1's on the D3's for the turns shooting you know it's gonna go bad for you.

Compare - double kastellan with triple heavy phos, 220 pts. 12W T7 3+, puts out 36 shots S6 AP-1 D1 if you stay still. Add cawl nearby for re-rolls to hit(!)

oblits, 195 points. 9W T4 2+, puts out 6 shots S6+D3, AP D3, D D3.

Now tell me this game is balanced.

 Arandmoor wrote:
It's not that chaos is weak.

Cawl is OP. All characters with blanket reroll-auras need to have their points cost increased fairly significantly.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
It's not that chaos is weak.

Cawl is OP. All characters with blanket reroll-auras need to have their points cost increased fairly significantly.

Well first off, he was playing Death Guard. Death Guard is arguably the weakest chaos faction currently, as it lacks any of the things that makes chaos good currently in return for... nothing, Death guard will likely overtake tsons once they get terminators, but as it stands he is correct, they are utter garbage across the board.

Chaos as whole is also... not strong. It is probably mid tier at best. Unified chaos might be top tier. Maybe. But that's gonna be mostly demons with a little CSM support.

drakerocket wrote:

I think you're off the mark and simply attached to particular units, which is never going to work out because what is good switches from edition to edition.

Vanilla CSMs aren't very good, but the codex more broadly is full of very strong units. Try out a game with a mix on any of the following:

Khorne berserkers, preds, defilers, renegade knights, havocks, scarab termies, daemon princes, hellturkies, daemonettes(+masque and herald), rapier weapon batteries, fire raptors and heck even rhinos. All of them range from some of the best units out there to very good units.

If you want to focus on possessed, oblits, csms or mutilators....I guess have a day? If that's what your army looks like, then the codex doesn't favor you. But I (and plenty of other folks) actually think chaos is upper middle and maybe even top tier for the first time in a decade.

 Arandmoor wrote:
IMO, Chaos have an enormous secret weapon in their summoning rituals, and a single week isn't enough time to figure out how to properly use them.

I think mixed CSM/Chaos Daemons armies will prove to be exceptionally powerful unless your opponent brings enough snipers to make JFK roll in his grave.