Latest posts for the thread "Faction rules confusion"

Faction rules confusion

Sly191 — GMT

My gaming group is just getting into 8th edition 40k and we are very confused about how the key word faction works. We have been looking online and we found bits of info here and there. We think we have it figured out but we want to make sure.

1. How we are reading the rule any model with 1 or more of the same faction keywords can work together, for example you could take Blood Angels units and Grey wolfs units together. Another example would be Battle sisters and imperial guard. This is how we are reading
the rules, we just want to make sure this is right.

2. We could not find much on how mixing units effect cp or anything else. Does mixing units effect that?

3. Is there a chart that shows what armies can work together? I feel that would end a lot of confusion.

Thanks in advanced, I know this question has been asked before and I am sorry, our group just wants to make sure we play by the rules.

Faction rules confusion

Jackal444 — GMT

1. Since in both examples, both factions share the IMPERIUM keyword, these are valid armies to pair together.

2. Mixing units does not affect CP gain.

3. There's not a chart that I know of but basically here's what you can do:
Imperium - SM, Guard, AdMech, Sisters, Custodes, Assassins, etc
Chaos - CSM, Chaos Demons, Traitor Knights
Orks - Orks
Tau - Tau
Aeldari - Eldar Craftworlds, Dark Eldar, Ynnari
Necrons - Necrons
Tyrannids - Tyrannids, Genstealer Cult
Genestealer Cult - Nids, Genestealer Cult, Guard (there's a special rule for having Genestealer Cult where you can have both Nids and Guard)

Keep in mind, some factions only give their faction bonus if their detachment is PURELY that one specific faction. Example: AdMech only gets Canticles if every unit in the detachment has the keyword or something like that. SM, CSM, and Grey Knights have something similar.

Faction rules confusion

Thommy H — GMT

1. Yes. As long as all the units share at least one faction keyword, they can be in the same detachment in a battle-forged army. So, in your examples, they'd all be valid under the IMPERIUM keyword.

2. It doesn't affect CPs and so forth. You just need to be battle-forged, so you need to have a faction keyword in common across each detachment.

3. If they have a faction keyword in common, they can be in the same detachment. There's nothing more to 'allies' than that.

Some notes:

- "Battle-forged" isn't the same as "Matched Play". If you want an army that's legal for matched play, all the units in all of your detachments have to have at least one faction keyword in common. In Open and Narrative games, you can include detachments with totally different factions (like AELDARI and IMPERIUM, or even CHAOS and IMPERIUM) to represent tenuous alliances.

- There's no intrinsic disadvantage to mixing the more limited factions (like BLOOD ANGELS and ADEPTA SORORITAS) under the wider umbrellas (IMPERIUM in this case), but it will generally affect how your units synergise, as most abilities only work on the narrowest faction keywords (like individual Space Marine Chapters).

- If you're using a faction with a Codex, you'll also need to be aware of their rules for getting access to their unique faction abilities. For example, your detachment needs to share a keyword to get Space Marine Chapter traits. Again, you can mix in other IMPERIUM units, but you'll lose access to faction traits: you exchange flexibility for specialisation.

I hope that helps!

Faction rules confusion

Ghaz — GMT

Thommy H wrote:
- "Battle-forged" isn't the same as "Matched Play". If you want an army that's legal for matched play, all the units in all of your detachments have to have at least one faction keyword in common. In Open and Narrative games, you can include detachments with totally different factions (like AELDARI and IMPERIUM, or even CHAOS and IMPERIUM) to represent tenuous alliances.

Battle-forged is listed as an option for Narrative Play (pg. 192), so make sure what rules are in use before the game begins.

Faction rules confusion

Thommy H — GMT

Yeah, I was just highlighting how Battle-forged and Matched Play quite often get conflated when people explain the way factions and detachments work. You can have a Battle-forged army in any play style, but you must have one for Matched Play.

Faction rules confusion

Ghaz — GMT

Thommy H wrote:
Yeah, I was just highlighting how Battle-forged and Matched Play quite often get conflated when people explain the way factions and detachments work. You can have a Battle-forged army in any play style, but you must have one for Matched Play.

And as I noted above, it is an optional rule for Narrative Play. If you decide to use the rule in Narrative Play then you must have a Battle-forged army.

Re:Faction rules confusion

Sly191 — GMT

Thanks for all the help. The guys are now all hitting the books seeing what combinations of units from different armies that can work well together. Cant wait to see that on the table.

Faction rules confusion

troy_tempest — GMT

Just wanted to thank Sly191 for posting this as i have similar issues getting my head around chapter approved with my sisters

Faction rules confusion

Sumilidon — GMT

Hi all,

Still scratching my head with this one. Are we saying that if I were to take an entirely Drukhari force led by a Farseer rather than an Archon, the army is both legal and my Drukhari force still benefits from power from pain?

If so, can my Farseer ride in a Venom for example?

Faction rules confusion

Mr Morden — GMT

Sumilidon wrote:
Hi all,

Still scratching my head with this one. Are we saying that if I were to take an entirely Drukhari force led by a Farseer rather than an Archon, the army is both legal and my Drukhari force still benefits from power from pain?

If so, can my Farseer ride in a Venom for example?

Yes to the first - but he could not have a Dukhari Relic althouhg he could have a Craftworld one.

No because the Venom defines who can use it as a transport in its own rules,

Faction rules confusion

Sumilidon — GMT

Mr Morden wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
Hi all,

Still scratching my head with this one. Are we saying that if I were to take an entirely Drukhari force led by a Farseer rather than an Archon, the army is both legal and my Drukhari force still benefits from power from pain?

If so, can my Farseer ride in a Venom for example?

Yes to the first - but he could not have a Dukhari Relic althouhg he could have a Craftworld one.

No because the Venom defines who can use it as a transport in its own rules,

Great, thanks. I'm just not keen on the Drukhari HQ so likely I'd just switch to either a Farseer on bike or an Autarch on bike but was worried they would cause the rest of the army to lose their faction benefits

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

Can Brood Brother regiment take Questor Imperialis?

Just because Astra Militarum regiment detachment is imperium keyword and can take a lord of Wars like Questor Imperialis in detachment.
Brood Brother is not Tyranids Keyword and it is just one of Astra Militarum’s regiment just like Cadia and Catachan.

Faction rules confusion

Mr Morden — GMT

Sumilidon wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
Hi all,

Still scratching my head with this one. Are we saying that if I were to take an entirely Drukhari force led by a Farseer rather than an Archon, the army is both legal and my Drukhari force still benefits from power from pain?

If so, can my Farseer ride in a Venom for example?

Yes to the first - but he could not have a Dukhari Relic althouhg he could have a Craftworld one.

No because the Venom defines who can use it as a transport in its own rules,

Great, thanks. I'm just not keen on the Drukhari HQ so likely I'd just switch to either a Farseer on bike or an Autarch on bike but was worried they would cause the rest of the army to lose their faction benefits

You would keep Power from Pain for those units that have it , The Farseer would not get it though and oculd not choose the Drukhari Warlord Traits/ Relic and could not have the Drukhari strategm played on him.

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

Solidcrash wrote:
Can Brood Brother regiment take Questor Imperialis?

Just because Astra Militarum regiment detachment is imperium keyword and can take a lord of Wars like Questor Imperialis in detachment.
Brood Brother is not Tyranids Keyword and it is just one of Astra Militarum’s regiment just like Cadia and Catachan.

You cannot. None of the Knights have Astra Millitarum as a keyword.

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

I didn’t said genestealers cult ally, just change name of regiment and name of household.

Astra Militirum is Imperium and Knights are also Imperirum.
They both are same factions.

How keyword are work was confused.

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

Solidcrash wrote:
I didn’t said genestealers cult ally, just change name of regiment and name of household.

Astra Militirum is Imperium and Knights are also Imperirum.
They both are same factions.

How keyword are work was confused.

From the Designers commentary:

Q: If I create an Astra Militarum Regiment of my own and name them, for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and I then also create an Adeptus Astartes Chapter of my own choosing, and also call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the abilities that work on the and/or keywords now work on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus Astartes units?

A: No.

The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment.

Brood Brothers doesn't let you include Imperium units, it lets you include Astra Militarum units.

Re:Faction rules confusion

alextroy — GMT

There are a lot of layers to army construction in 8th Edition. Here's a high level overview:

Army Types:
Non-Battle-forged: An army of any units you wish to use. There are no special benefits to this type of army.
Battle-Forged Army: An army where all units are organized into detachments. Detachments have minimum and maximum unit allotments from the different Battlefield roles and generally require all units in them to share one Faction Keyword. The broadest Faction Keywords are Aeldari, Chaos, Imperium, Necron, Ork, Tau, and Tyriand. Battle-forged armies gain Command Points and access to Stratagems.

Play Types:
Open Play: Any Army Type can be used.
Narrative Play: Any Army Type can be used.
Matched Play: Army must be Battle-Forged and models must share a single Keyword or be Unaligned (example all units are Imperium or Unaligned).

Detachment Types:
Faction Detachments: Most factions have the option of creating a Faction Detachment based around specific Keywords in a Battleforged Army. If all models in the detachments share a specific Keyword, the detachment is a "Faction" Detachment and gain access to a number of special rules including additional Warlord Traits, Strategems, Artifacts, and subfaction rules. For example, if all models in a Detachment share the same Chaos Space Marine Legion Faction Rule, they are a Chaos Space Marine detachment and gain various bonuses.
Mixed Detachments: Detachments that don't qualify as Faction Detachments, generally because they contain models that only share the most basic of Faction Keywords.

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

Remind, there are no Tyranids or Genestealers cult. Just name of Regiment. And there are no lord of war slot in most of detachment other than super heavy detachment, super heavy auxiliary detachment and supreme command detachment.

Is this list are illegal?

+++ Brood Brothers (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [79 PL, 1441pts] +++

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

+ HQ +

Company Commander: Chainsword, Laspistol
. Categories: Astra Militarum, Imperium, (BROOD BROTHERS), Character, Infantry, Company Commander, Officer, HQ

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad: 9x Guardsman
. Categories: (BROOD BROTHERS), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Infantry Squad, Troops
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad: 9x Guardsman
. Categories: (BROOD BROTHERS), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Infantry Squad, Troops
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Astra Millitarum/Imperium
. Categories: No Force Org Slot

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) ++

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Heavy stubber, Thermal cannon
. Categories: Faction: , Faction: Imperium, Knight Crusader, Lord of War, Faction: Questor Imperialis, Titanic, Vehicle

Knight Errant: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thermal cannon
. Categories: Faction: , Faction: Imperium, Lord of War, Faction: Questor Imperialis, Titanic, Vehicle, Knight Errant

Knight Gallant: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet
. Categories: Faction: , Faction: Imperium, Lord of War, Faction: Questor Imperialis, Titanic, Vehicle, Knight Gallant

alextroy wrote:
There are a lot of layers to army construction in 8th Edition. Here's a high level overview:

(Snip)
Mixed Detachments: Detachments that don't qualify as Faction Detachments, generally because they contain models that only share the most basic of Faction Keywords.

Bingo.

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

No, it is not legal. The Knight Detachment does not share a faction keyword with the Genestealer Cult Detachment.

Re:Faction rules confusion

alextroy — GMT

Not for Matched Play, per the Brood Brothers Rule in the Index: Xenos 2 FAQ:

Page 112 – Brood Brothers
Change this rule to read:
‘The influence of a Genestealer Cult permeates all aspects of a society, including any Astra Militarum regiments stationed on their world. To represent the elements of such forces that have been subverted by a cult, you can include Astra Militarum units and Genestealer Cults units in the same matched play army, even though these units don’t have any Faction keywords in common. However, you can only include one Astra Militarum Detachment (one in which every unit has the Astra Militarum keyword) in a Battleforged army for each Genestealer Cult Detachment (one in which every unit has the Genestealer Cults keyword) in that army and every unit in the Astra Militarum Detachment that has the <> keyword must replace it in every instance on its datasheet with Brood Brothers (you cannot include any Astra Militarum named characters in such Detachments). In such cases, simply ignore the Astra Militarum units when choosing your army’s Faction.’

In this case, you are only allowed a Brood Brothers Detachment in combination with a Genestealer Cults Detachment. You may also then include a Tyranid detachment (mixed or pure) since you get to ignore Astra Miltarium units when choosing your Faction.

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

Please re-read my last post. Slowly.

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

Solidcrash wrote:
Please re-read my last post. Slowly.

We did. Your list is still illegal for matched play.

Faction rules confusion

niv-mizzet — GMT

BaconCatBug wrote:
Solidcrash wrote:
Please re-read my last post. Slowly.
We did. Your list is still illegal for matched play.

Uhhh did I miss something? His list is just IG and knights. That's all imperium. How is that not legal for MP?

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

niv-mizzet wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Solidcrash wrote:
Please re-read my last post. Slowly.
We did. Your list is still illegal for matched play.

Uhhh did I miss something? His list is just IG and knights. That's all imperium. How is that not legal for MP?

We got a winner!

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

niv-mizzet wrote:Uhhh did I miss something? His list is just IG and knights. That's all imperium. How is that not legal for MP?

Solidcrash wrote:We got a winner!

You can't use the Brood Brothers rule without some GSC models.

"To represent the elements of such forces that have been subverted by a cult, you can include Astra Militarum units and Genestealer Cults units in the same matched play army, even though these units don’t have any Faction keywords in common."

You can't just give Brood Brothers to an AM detachment out of nowhere, you need both a GSC and an AM detachment, at which point the Knights cannot be taken.

So please, try reading the rules before making wild declarations or "gotchas".

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

Just because of name in keyword, if somebody put in what they like - create their own name of [REGIMENT] or [CHAPTER] whatever they like and everything is blew up.

Just like what I just did, I named my Astra Militirum [BROOD BROTHERS] for Regiment without use Genestealers Cult special rule.

Everything just went wrong.

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

Solidcrash wrote:
Just because of name in keyword, if somebody put in what they like - create their own name of [REGIMENT] or [CHAPTER] whatever they like and everything is blew up.

Just like what I just did, I named my Astra Militirum [BROOD BROTHERS] for Regiment without use Genestealers Cult special rule.

Everything just went wrong.

You can't pick Brood Brothers due to the designers commentary, even if you aren't planning on using the special rules.

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

@Sly191
AlexTroy was spot on, but there are a restriction for named faction like Cadia and Dark Angel ( and many named factions ) but if you create your own [KEYWORDS] and many other keywords with <> but there are restrict that you cannot use any named [KEYWORDS] special rule or extra stuff whatever. You can name your Eldar [BLOOD ANGEL] but you cannot use Blood Angel and Eldar’s named clans ( what it called? I am not Eldar..) bonus/rule/relic/whatever it giveaway. But you use normal Eldar special rule instead.

My [regiment] Astra Militirum cannot use Cadia’s named character and it Regiment special rule until I name my regiment [Cadia] but if I name my Astra Militirum Regiment [CHAO] and it still imperium and loyal and do not become CHAO factions.

Confused, I know.

Faction rules confusion

Korbee11 — GMT

With the list given, my call would be.
No, the list isn't legal, as the Knights don't have a household.
Unless you're is actually Household. Then, completely legal.

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

Korbee11 wrote:
With the list given, my call would be.
No, the list isn't legal, as the Knights don't have a household.
Unless you're is actually Household. Then, completely legal.

Your call is objectively wrong. It's not legal due to using BROOD BROTHERS as a .

Faction rules confusion

Korbee11 — GMT

BaconCatBug wrote:
Korbee11 wrote:
With the list given, my call would be.
No, the list isn't legal, as the Knights don't have a household.
Unless you're is actually Household. Then, completely legal.
Your call is objectively wrong. It's not legal due to using BROOD BROTHERS as a .

Eh. The amount of Damns I give in this particular situation is 0.
He gains nothing by calling them Brood Brothers. If it were any other Regiment it would be legal.

The list doesn't circumvent any Detachment inclusion rules, and it doesn't circumvent any aura or ability crap.

If he tells me 'Ya, this Company Commander and his 27 buddies are actually under the influence of a growing Genestealer Cult, and trying to get information about this Household of knights'
My response would be 'cool.'

So. Throw whatever rules you want at it, in this particular instance, it literally makes no difference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sorry, following the tenants stuff.
I am going off the Designer Commentary that allows people to personalize their army. Sure, that would mean he would have to use [Brood Brotherz] but the intention is clearly stated that it is meant not to circumvent rules of abilities/detachment inclusion/stuff like that.
The moment the list tries to add something like a Taurox, then there would be an issue.

Faction rules confusion

BaconCatBug — GMT

So you're answering a totally different question than the one was asked.

If I asked "Is it legal to include Rowboat in an Ork detachment", would you reply "Yes, as long as you don't take any orks"?

Faction rules confusion

alextroy — GMT

Korbee11 wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Korbee11 wrote:
With the list given, my call would be.
No, the list isn't legal, as the Knights don't have a household.
Unless you're is actually Household. Then, completely legal.
Your call is objectively wrong. It's not legal due to using BROOD BROTHERS as a .

Eh. The amount of Damns I give in this particular situation is 0.
He gains nothing by calling them Brood Brothers. If it were any other Regiment it would be legal.

The list doesn't circumvent any Detachment inclusion rules, and it doesn't circumvent any aura or ability crap.

If he tells me 'Ya, this Company Commander and his 27 buddies are actually under the influence of a growing Genestealer Cult, and trying to get information about this Household of knights'
My response would be 'cool.'

So. Throw whatever rules you want at it, in this particular instance, it literally makes no difference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sorry, following the tenants stuff.
I am going off the Designer Commentary that allows people to personalize their army. Sure, that would mean he would have to use [Brood Brotherz] but the intention is clearly stated that it is meant not to circumvent rules of abilities/detachment inclusion/stuff like that.
The moment the list tries to add something like a Taurox, then there would be an issue.

You are correct for Open or Narrative Play. Battle-forged or not, a Match Play army has no restrictions on which Keywords you use in the army overall.

For Matched Play, there are specific rules regarding Factions included in your army and specific rules for use the the Brood Brothers Keyword, which I quoted. You are not allowed to use Brood Brothers Keyword for Regiment unless your army except for an AM Detachment for which you also have a GCS Detachment. The sample army did not have a GSC detachment and was thus illegal for Matched Play.

Faction rules confusion

Solidcrash — GMT

alextroy wrote:
Korbee11 wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Korbee11 wrote:
With the list given, my call would be.
No, the list isn't legal, as the Knights don't have a household.
Unless you're is actually Household. Then, completely legal.
Your call is objectively wrong. It's not legal due to using BROOD BROTHERS as a .

Eh. The amount of Damns I give in this particular situation is 0.
He gains nothing by calling them Brood Brothers. If it were any other Regiment it would be legal.

The list doesn't circumvent any Detachment inclusion rules, and it doesn't circumvent any aura or ability crap.

If he tells me 'Ya, this Company Commander and his 27 buddies are actually under the influence of a growing Genestealer Cult, and trying to get information about this Household of knights'
My response would be 'cool.'

So. Throw whatever rules you want at it, in this particular instance, it literally makes no difference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sorry, following the tenants stuff.
I am going off the Designer Commentary that allows people to personalize their army. Sure, that would mean he would have to use [Brood Brotherz] but the intention is clearly stated that it is meant not to circumvent rules of abilities/detachment inclusion/stuff like that.
The moment the list tries to add something like a Taurox, then there would be an issue.

You are correct for Open or Narrative Play. Battle-forged or not, a Match Play army has no restrictions on which Keywords you use in the army overall.

For Matched Play, there are specific rules regarding Factions included in your army and specific rules for use the the Brood Brothers Keyword, which I quoted. You are not allowed to use Brood Brothers Keyword for Regiment unless your army except for an AM Detachment for which you also have a GCS Detachment. The sample army did not have a GSC detachment and was thus illegal for Matched Play.

I like all quote include in this post! And better answer
In real life I wouldn’t do that anyway but it’s too good to miss out to clean up the confused about Faction keywords..
For someone wonder what my Hybrid faction called, its Cult of Secundus ( post-uprising GSC) and Guard of Secundus ( pre-uprising pure AM ) and the model is very blending of Cadia and hybrid. ( will put up a pic if someone want )

Too bad we don’t have Brood Brother datasheet yet, I am sure it will be in GSC codex. For Named Regiment “Brood Brothers”.

Faction rules confusion

Sgt_Smudge — GMT

As far as this whole "Brood Brothers" situation is concerned, I would err on the negative side, at least in Matched Play.

Especially considering that you are aware of the fact that is an actual keyword (so it's not meaningless, it's not like you've said , it does have a meaning), and that can only be obtained via having a GSC ally, and even if so, Knights wouldn't be able to be fielded too. You CAN have your Knights as , because it can NEVER affect them.

It would be like me giving my Guardsmen the keyword, but saying "no, they have the Cadian KEYWORD, but their in game effects are Catachan." Because IS an actual keyword that can apply to Guardsmen, it shouldn't be applied unless it's actually being used.

Faction rules confusion

JohnnyHell — GMT

Call them "Cult Militia" and "Cult Questoris" to silence any complaints about the use of the exact term "Brood Brothers", and there's no issue.

As there are no actual GS Cult Detachments in the army presented, trying to say that a force comprised completely of Astra Militarum and Knights units is illegal is... well, silly.

Faction rules confusion

Sgt_Smudge — GMT

JohnnyHell wrote:
Call them "Cult Militia" and "Cult Questoris" to silence any complaints about the use of the exact term "Brood Brothers", and there's no issue.

As there are no actual GS Cult Detachments in the army presented, trying to say that a force comprised completely of Astra Militarum and Knights units is illegal is... well, silly.

Again, this is fine. It's purely the fact that the initial question was about , and that the only actual official use of is as allies to a GSC.

Calling them by anything else (even the above, as JohnnyHell says, or even ) would be absolutely fine. Model them how you want, fluff it how you want, but in a matched game, the term has a defined meaning and value to AM units.