<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Removing T and S on units and weapons"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Removing T and S on units and weapons"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Removing T and S on units and weapons
Wouldn't this be better (in the current form) be rolled up into the W, D, AP and Sv system? Tougher opponents would just get higher wounds and/or Saves. Strong weapons just get more AP or D. No need for a roll to wound, surely? This could be removed and you just get more Wounds to simulate "flesh wounds".

Just looking for opinions. I would normally say that Strength and Toughness would be great things for roleplay and fun, but with the current system where everything can wound, and even realliy powerful weapons may not wound, it seems less worthwhile.
Instead, assume everything that hits could cause damage IF you can get through the armour, but really mighty people might not notice just a little flesh wound. It's the same as it is now, but with one bloody roll.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319458.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons
Removing the S/T mechanic will just make things more complicated, more wounds to track here and there, and everything in the game will have to be re-written from the ground up. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319510.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319510.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons FRFSRF gets 148 shots, so while it would do some damage, it wouldn't kill anything that tough.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319513.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319567.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319691.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons
It just doesn´t provide a good layer of "Weapon A is effective/ineffective against target B". Sure, the difference between 3+ and 5+ is enough to tip the balance (assuming there was balance), but if you ask the question of effectiveness, nobody cares.

Imagine the following: "Sergeant, our lasguns only wound those CSM on a 5+, should we switch targets?"
"WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, KEEP FIRING, YOU LAZY COWARD!!!"

Now, if you haven´t noticed, a mere bolter is equally effective against your average chunk of armor on wheels (tank) as a lasgun is against a marine. (Same for the armor save, sadly).
Does any guardmen hesitate to fire at (Chaos) Marines? No. Should any marine hesitate to fire at a tank? No.
Armies with wide access to (as little as) S5 (eg T´au) can even apply the same question to knights! Yes, a pulse rifle is equally effective against a knight, as a lasgun against a marine.

So that´s why I don´t think your suggestion will solve the fundamental problem, it will just shift the problem to somewhere else.

And while the idea itself isn´t bad - computer games for example make excessive use of larger ranges for HP, damage and armor - there´s that one little difference between me and a computer: I´m not so good at calculating and keeping track of large numbers. So I´d rather roll that extra dice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10319836.page GMT Re:Removing T and S on units and weapons http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320205.page GMT Re:Removing T and S on units and weapons

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I personally would prefer them to put the chart back to how it was prior to 8th. I know it's a long shot but some weapons should not be able to hurt tougher tanks and creatures. I can fire an assault weapon at a tank all day long, the chances of doing any real damage is not 1 in 6.

Its not 1 in 6 now either. Its 1 in 6 to successfully wound. It's probably another 1 in 3 to get through armor to actual cause damage. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320397.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons Maybe just go back to someway of making it so that weak weapons never wound a really tough opponent and strong weapons always wound weapon opponents.
I wonder if that will go to balance out the horde thing that I hear people complaining about, and make Space Marines great again. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320806.page GMT Re:Removing T and S on units and weapons LRBT for example, maybe lascannons up to S10, no reason not to have things at T>10) to make it work. Still a massive rewrite through.

Or +1 to save vs weapons with S less than 1/2 your T. Still allows some through, but makes it almost not worth rolling the dice in many cases.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320902.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons
Then then everyone will bitch about how infantry isn't in this war game.

Only guns capable of wounding the high T models will be really worth bringing and MW will be even more valuable then they are now.

The removal of the old S/T chart is a great change and the SMALL chance to do damage with everything prevents people from flooding the game with nothing but tank and anti tank.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10320908.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons
The thing is, some of the most powerfull anti-tank options are in the hands of infantry (maybe elite-infantry). So your opponent cannot take nothing but anti-tank. Some of the best anti-infantry is also in the hands if infantry. So there you go.

Even if this wasn´t the case, tanks usually have problems simply "chewing through" large amounts of infantry. So you can still use them as tarpit and cannonfodder.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321162.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons

Lance845 wrote:
...The removal of the old S/T chart is a great change and the SMALL chance to do damage with everything prevents people from flooding the game with nothing but tank and anti tank.

I find the "SMALL chance to do damage with everything" gives people false hope and makes them waste dice accomplishing nothing. A full unit of Aggressors standing still sounds like wacky fun and "ooh, I can wound T8 on 6s!" might make you think you should shoot them at a Land Raider, and a hundred plus rolls later you've wasted ten minutes dealing two wounds that the Techmarine casually patches up next turn because they couldn't be bothered to come out and say "don't shoot boltguns at Land Raiders," they had to leave it for you to discover you're wasting time and energy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321184.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons

Lance845 wrote:
And the consequences of that is that infantry become worthless as more and more high T tanks and mechs are placed onto the table because the best way to survive is to be immune to their guns.

Then then everyone will bitch about how infantry isn't in this war game.

Only guns capable of wounding the high T models will be really worth bringing and MW will be even more valuable then they are now.

The removal of the old S/T chart is a great change and the SMALL chance to do damage with everything prevents people from flooding the game with nothing but tank and anti tank.

The answer isn't flatting the chart, it's GW realizing they made a mistake when they tore down the walls between APOC and a normal game. Those big stompy things should be put back were they belong. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321592.page GMT Re:Removing T and S on units and weapons
More weapons need to have special properties against select unit type it SHOULD be super effective against. For example:

Meltagun/Multimelta Range 12/24" S8 AP-4 Dd6 Ability: If the target is within half range of this weapon, roll two dice when inflicting damage with it and discard the lowest result. If the target is a VEHICLE, you can reroll the dice used to inflict damage.

The added abilities should be something that's not too powerful, but something that evens out the randomness.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10321728.page GMT Removing T and S on units and weapons

AnomanderRake wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
...The removal of the old S/T chart is a great change and the SMALL chance to do damage with everything prevents people from flooding the game with nothing but tank and anti tank.

I mostly agree, and yet my Poison Tongue playing self has scraped enough wounds off of knights with mass splinterfire that I'm rarely willing to give up that small chance at doing damage even if it is a waste of time. Plus, getting rid of Furious Charge means that many dark eldar units would be completely incapable of harming vehicles if you got rid of wounding on 6s.

I was going to pitch this idea in a different thread, but what do you guys think of...

1. Attacks with a strength of more than double the target's toughness automatically wound. Gets rid of usually-unnecessarry rolling and removes the feel bads of having your plasma gun somehow fail to wound that last guardsman standing on an objective.

2. When shooting at a target whose toughness is at least double your weapons' strength, you may trade 6 hits for 1 automatic wound with an AP of 0 and a Damage of 1. This way, lasguns and splinter rifles can still chip away at land raiders, and you get the same statistical average number of wounds (barring modifiers and rerolls), but you don't spend nearly as much time rolling it out. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10322063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/770368/10322063.page GMT