<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon
I imagine with no downsides to using psychic powers, they were all super Saiyan alpha psykers just letting rip all over the place. Like a race of Akiras waiting to be set off.

But what about their reincarnation?

I was thinking what if it as a bit like "live die repeat'. They retain their memories and reincarnate to fight again, perpetually dying, learning their enemy's abilities by brute force and just fighting an endless cycle.

Basically the Phoenix lords, but by birth and the whole species.

And they were all Akira.

It seems even more depressing and grim dark than the 41st millennium...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10769298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10769298.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon
But you'd think there would be some engineered or evolved reason for the reincarnation thing to work. Like, eldar fetuses have to be susceptible to "possession" by reincarnating souls. Maybe eldar souls continue to become more potent over time, so reincarnation lets you recycle more powerful souls? Like, a level 50 soul might die and degrade into a level 30 soul by the time it reincarnates, but that's still better than having to start over with a level 1 soul?

This could also hint at the disdain drukhari have for "vatborn" (grown rather than naturally birthed trueborn) drukhari whom they sometimes refer to as "soulless." Obviously vatborn *do* have souls, otherwise they wouldn't have to worry about Slaanesh, but maybe the process of growing bodies was known, pre-Fall, to prevent a soul from reincarnating into that body thus ensuring that the result aeldari was a level 1 soul instead of a reincarnated level 30 soul or whatever.

So even though (almost?) no modern drukhari are reincarnated (Slaanesh has been nomming any souls that would have reincarnated), that knowledge and resulting bias may have been passed down via the nobles that founded Commorragh. Bunch of level 50 true born souls growing level 1 souls for their service and amusement, and then the Fall happens well after the bias against those level 1 souls forms.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10769781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10769781.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon
Basically, that the current eldar are a pale shadow of their forebears.

Interestingly, the phoenix lords use a form of reincarnation that does retain all their experiences, at the expense of consuming another soul to 'restart' them.

I imagine that this form of predatory soul charging could have been possible historically, when the reincarnating soul 'eats' the nascent one in a developing foetus...

Having seen the reference to a 12 metre(!) tall krork in Trazyn's collection, I was thinking if that's what the original orks looked like to fight the necrons and c'tan, what did the original eldar have that made them equally as powerful?

I doubt the old ones built them as they currently are, because there's no way the modern eldar could stand next to a 12 metre krork as an equal threat.

The eldar obviously had massive psychic potential, they were created as psychic weapons. But there's no real reason to give them the ability to reincarnate if it doesn't come with an advantage in warfare.

it could be knowledge, or it could be ephemeral power - a sort of pseudo hindu concept where each eldar soul that reincarnates levels up into a more powerful psyker.

What I like about the concept is the terrible darkness behind it - that whatever the mechanism, dying is actually something the old ones built into the strategy for using the eldar. They created a reincarnation cycle that in some manner was advantageous to their war, so they would expend eldar souls by the trillions in order to power them up.

Imagine an army that was a pure Akira death cult, running into the enemy, generating experiences, knowledge and emotions that charge their soul. The more potent the experiences that colour the soul, the more powerful it becomes. So when it dies, it is more likely to stay coherent and reincarnate. The new eldar is now more powerful and when it dies, becomes more powerful again.

But it requires that they die in violent warfare so their souls are empowered by the experiences they have.

It puts a pretty dark spin on the eldar and their relationship with death.

And it says interesting things about where the phoenix lords are going. I've always thought that they are slowly becoming MORE powerful as they live longer, charging their souls and becoming mini infinity circuits.

Just as Thraka is a throwback to the Beast and Krork, the phoenix lords could be the reappearance of War in Heaven era eldar - Eldanesh and Ulthanesh walking again.

My personal theory is that at the Rhana Dandra the phoenix lords with die and then ascend as a new pantheon of the eldar. because the eldar myth and reincarnation means nothing truly ends, it all goes through a new state of being. So them dying during the RD is only final in the sense of the current age and their current existence.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10770577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10770577.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon I don't see why they'd need to steal a body from a foetus though. That's going to cause a lot of personal enmity and is still limited by the time it takes to grow a baby and that baby to grow up. I thought they could just create bodies, revive their old one or something else that basically made a ready for use adult body.

My view on the Phoenix Lords has been they'd bring back the old gods rather than become new ones, it seems more in line with their names, history and what they do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10770935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10770935.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon

pm713 wrote:
Ancient Eldar had their psychic powers. A 12 foot tall Krork is nothing when you can twitch a finger and send him flying into orbit.
I don't see why they'd need to steal a body from a foetus though. That's going to cause a lot of personal enmity and is still limited by the time it takes to grow a baby and that baby to grow up. I thought they could just create bodies, revive their old one or something else that basically made a ready for use adult body.

My view on the Phoenix Lords has been they'd bring back the old gods rather than become new ones, it seems more in line with their names, history and what they do.

Their reincarnation was described as their souls going back to the warp and then being reborn in new eldar. As the only way this works with biological reproduction is a pregnancy to occur first, it means these souls have to attach to them - eldar don't immaculately conceive.

It's never explained in great detail what the consequences of this is, but it's pretty clear they are born again naturally.

The phoenix lords are followers of Khaine, so it would be weird for them to bring back other gods. They each represent a specific aspect of khaine, so if any god was brought back by them it would be Khaine.

my theory is that they take on the mantle of those old gods, overthrowing them in the same way Zeus overthrew the titans. As those gods are dead and the lords are becoming more powerful, they can easily step into those new roles. This would make the eldar pantheon a war-focused pantheon as befits the 40k setting.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10771625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10771625.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon

Hellebore wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Ancient Eldar had their psychic powers. A 12 foot tall Krork is nothing when you can twitch a finger and send him flying into orbit.
I don't see why they'd need to steal a body from a foetus though. That's going to cause a lot of personal enmity and is still limited by the time it takes to grow a baby and that baby to grow up. I thought they could just create bodies, revive their old one or something else that basically made a ready for use adult body.

My view on the Phoenix Lords has been they'd bring back the old gods rather than become new ones, it seems more in line with their names, history and what they do.

It's not ridiculous to imagine they'd have clone bodies, bodies made from psychic powers or otherwise ignore biological reproduction when they literally reincarnate with space magic.

They very clearly are not. Jain Zar tells an Avatar that he won't get the Eldar to follow him and the Eldar won't fall into his trap. Asurmen tutors Jain Zar about all the Eldar gods and they follow prophecies made by Asuryan.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10771996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10771996.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon
However, the main issue I see from this theory is: What happens to the baby-eldar-soul when the old-eldar-soul comes to take the body?

Do eldar get born without a soul? If there are not enough dead eldar, would they stop reproducing?

Were the pre-fall eldar sacrificing all the "Level 1" souls to the Warp?

Also, I dont recall every reading any specifics about Eldar reproduction. It could very well be *space magic*]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772024.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772058.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772058.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon

Fisheyes wrote:
Interesting deep delve!

However, the main issue I see from this theory is: What happens to the baby-eldar-soul when the old-eldar-soul comes to take the body?

You're trying to ask "How does reincarnation work?" which also requires asking "How do newborn people get souls without reincarnation?" I don't think there's a big enough disclaimer to put on those answers. But...

Let's suppose that there's a process by which a soul forms in a newborn in most species. How might that work differently in the situation of reincarnation?
There's two main options that I can see:
1. In a species with reincarnation, the newborn creates a void which the existing souls are drawn into to fill. So there is no 'baby soul' to be replaced.
2. The formation of the baby soul draws in an existing soul as a necessary component, the same way a growing baby draws matter from its mother. So there's no difference between the 'baby soul' and the 'old soul' as far as the process is concerned.

How does that work when you've just started the race? Either whoever creates the race needs to make a whole bunch of souls at the same time, or a "soul less" individual somehow needs to be able to accumulate enough soul material over a lifetime so that it releases a more complete soul for the next newborn. A few generations of soulless individuals to start out seems reasonable enough.

The idea of 'soul accumulation' seems to be consistent with what's been described for the Elder and Dark Elder. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772071.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon 40k metaphysics sentient beings generate souls as they come into existence. There's not a lot of details around exactly how or at what point this happens and there are a lot 'life starts at conception' analogies that i wouldn't really want to go near.

My thinking is that, as emotion affects the warp, it's the mind that generates them that is the root of soul 'accumulation'. So an organism that hasn't formed a mind, doesn't really have a soul.

So by that line of reasoning, most organisms wouldn't really have a 40k soul until their brains had developed the capacity to emote and feel, which happens late in gestation/first year of life in humans.

Eldar were never described as having all their births being reincarnations, as that would make their ability to breed very weird. Either the old ones had to create more eldar at the beginning than ever existed after that (so there was an excess of souls waiting to be reborn), or they always maintained the same numbers throughout all history. We know though that by the time of the fall, their numbers spread across the galaxy in the trillions, so I don't think a steady population works.

My assumption here is that the eldar breed and generate souls like everyone else. Some souls, perhaps the more powerful (in the sense of life experience accumulation/force of will etc) could reincarnate into following generations, but not every birth was a reincarnation. They probably had some great celebrations when the psychic resonance of a new birth matched a famous person (ala Tibetan Lamas).

They definitely could have cloned bodies etc (the DE do that now), but their reincarnation was a natural process, not one they had to force or build technology to support. the original background on it said that the birth of Slannesh was what finally stopped them doing it, as Slannesh would eat every soul that appeared in the warp.

So technically I suppose the eldar can reincarnate now, there's just a fatal barrier preventing them doing it.

Under the assumptions around souls above, it would follow that a natural reincarnation would mean an existing soul floating in the warp 'joins' a developing foetus' proto-soul.

Given that the soul of a foetus in this context is almost non existent, it would be pretty simple for another one to merge.

you could make a more subtle argument that they somehow take the place of a developing soul, so they don't consume a proto soul or anything like that. given this is 40k, I feel that a slightly darker reality fits better.

So given all that, what would be the tactical advantage in building your psychic weapons to do this? are we thinking that reincarnating souls are slowly gaining in power?

From this thesis you can draw parallels between the original eldar and the krorks:

Krorks: perpetual physical force that mirrors its opponents, loots them, and grows stronger from the existence of an enemy to fight. When you kill them, they just spawn more to keep fighting you.

Eldar: perpetually powering up psychic weapons. Killing them only makes them stronger and every generation is more powerful than the previous one.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10772536.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon I agree with most of that. I imagine that an eldar child that doesn't have a soul reincarnate into would develop a "Level 1" soul once its brain/mind developed. Minds and souls are basically synonymous in 40k. Thus, any modern "trueborn" eldar (including craftworlders and exodites as well as drukhari true born) would be "Level 1 souls" because Slaanesh is rendering reincarnation impossible.

Before Slaanesh was nomming would-be reincarnatees, many newborns would have reincarnated souls, but producing more kids than there were available souls would result in new level 1 souls. It's also worth pointing out the possibility that a soul that wasn't a high enough level might not be strong enough to endure the warp and be reincarnated. So a soul whose host dies enough times in succession without having a chance to level up might degrade to the point of being unable to reincarnate, and a level 1 soul that only hit level 5 might not reincarnate if you have to be a level 10 soul to persist in the warp.

Interestingly, if there was a stigma against low-level souls, this might have contributed to the low fertility of eldar biology. Your species has less incentive to produce offspring once those offspring come out as level 1 souls rather than as more powerful (and thus more survivable) souls.

And yeah, if reincarnation is a trait designed by the old ones rather than being a trait the pre-uplift eldar developed naturally, then its purpose is probably to make the eldar as a species continue to power up over time. Lost half your eldar population to some Necrontyr? No big deal; most of t heir psychic power will be refunded in a few decades when their reincarnated souls' new bodies reach maturity. And the most powerful of your eldar will tend to level up more consistently and come back at a higher level too, encouraging the preservation of survivable traits.

Regarding Phoenix Lords, I don't see them becoming a new pantheon in their own right. For one thing, Yvraine has her own ideas on what the new pantheon might look like (see: Wild Rider). For another, the PL's seem pretty closely tied to Asuryan and Khaine. I could absolutely Asuryan being ressurrected in some fashion; he is the PHOENIX king after all.

My personal headcanon nerd hope, if the plot ever progesses far enough, is that Ynnead cuts the vestiges of the old pantheon out of Slaanesh like a certain woodsman cutting grandma and Little Red out of a certain wolf. Maybe even have him slice free the original eldar-y chunk of Slaanesh and have it join the pantheon, freshly-mellowed-out as a reflection of the discipline and humility the aeldari race learned as a result of the Fall.

I like the narrative arc of the eldar ...
* being awesome (pre-fall)
* becoming hubristic
* suffering for their hubris (the fall)
* losing most of the aspects of themselves other than their ability to be cunning and make war (Cegorach and Khaine)
* Learning humility through suffering and loss (Ynnead)
* and then evolving into a new, more humble form that balances their awesomeness with the humility learned through harsh lessons (reborn pantheon free of or possibly including a form of Slaanesh)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10774389.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10774389.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon
The one thing I'd add is the possibility that during the War in Heaven the Eldar might have artificially sped up the reincarnation process, just as Drukhari Haemonculi do for Archons in modern times - with both memories and bodies coming back more or less intact. The Old One's tech could have even sped this process up beyond what the Drukhari do today.

I imagine a base of operations hidden in the webway, full of biovats (a la Clone Wars) growing fresh Eldar bodies by the hour, and then spewing them through portals onto countless battlefields across the galaxy.

You get atomized by a Gauss Blaster only to snap your eyes open in a vat a few hours later. As you focus your psychic powers, the warp responds and clads your body with psychoactive wraith-bone armor. Your vat flushes you into a portal and you drop back into battle - a little wiser and angrier this time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775037.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon

Brother Janus wrote:
This has been a super cool thread! More!

The one thing I'd add is the possibility that during the War in Heaven the Eldar might have artificially sped up the reincarnation process, just as Drukhari Haemonculi do for Archons in modern times - with both memories and bodies coming back more or less intact. The Old One's tech could have even sped this process up beyond what the Drukhari do today.

I imagine a base of operations hidden in the webway, full of biovats (a la Clone Wars) growing fresh Eldar bodies by the hour, and then spewing them through portals onto countless battlefields across the galaxy.

You get atomized by a Gauss Blaster only to snap your eyes open in a vat a few hours later. As you focus your psychic powers, the warp responds and clads your body with psychoactive wraith-bone armor. Your vat flushes you into a portal and you drop back into battle - a little wiser and angrier this time.

Totally, although that would depend on Old One tech somehow solving the trueborn/vatborn issue as eldar grown in vats by haemonculi are believed to have inferior souls for whatever reason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775128.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon
Some nice similarity there.

I think that there's a lot of valuable information held in the creation of the Eldar that explains who they are and what happened to them.

The fall in a way was an inevitable result of their extreme creation - creating a highly psychic emotionally charged organism that powers up over time is bound to reach a point of breakdown.

They were created to die and fight so without that the limiter is off.

In a way they're basically like old one space marines...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775192.page GMT Eldar reincarnation as an old one weapon

Wyldhunt wrote:

Brother Janus wrote:
This has been a super cool thread! More!

The one thing I'd add is the possibility that during the War in Heaven the Eldar might have artificially sped up the reincarnation process, just as Drukhari Haemonculi do for Archons in modern times - with both memories and bodies coming back more or less intact. The Old One's tech could have even sped this process up beyond what the Drukhari do today.

I imagine a base of operations hidden in the webway, full of biovats (a la Clone Wars) growing fresh Eldar bodies by the hour, and then spewing them through portals onto countless battlefields across the galaxy.

You get atomized by a Gauss Blaster only to snap your eyes open in a vat a few hours later. As you focus your psychic powers, the warp responds and clads your body with psychoactive wraith-bone armor. Your vat flushes you into a portal and you drop back into battle - a little wiser and angrier this time.

Totally, although that would depend on Old One tech somehow solving the trueborn/vatborn issue as eldar grown in vats by haemonculi are believed to have inferior souls for whatever reason.

I wasn't referring to new vatborn Kabalites warriors, I was referring to how Haemonculi can rapidly regrow the body of a dead Archon for the purpose of resurrecting it. It's the same soul that comes back - memories and all.

In fact now that I think about it, modern Drukhari have resurrection techniques that are even quicker - such as those used to bring Vect and his allies back following their Massacre at the hands of the Masque of the Veiled Path.

Hellebore wrote:
I like the concept Janus and I wonder who inspired who because it's very similar to how the necrons work, except it's their whole body that returns rather than then a soul.

Some nice similarity there.

Yeah, in a way the ancient Asuryani and Necrons are two sides of the same coin. One can regenerate their soul, but not their body, the other can regenerate their body, and have no soul. Fits very well into the narrative of the Asuryani being masters of immaterium, and the C'tan being the masters of the material. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/787296/10775201.page GMT