<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second SM a real hard game. Put it short, they actually outrun, out-scores and out-shoot marines (in terms of high-quality firepower, e.g. S7/8 AP-2/-3 firepower, Marine's shooting are basically high-quality-but-low-quantity and high-quantity-but-low-quality, unless you buy those "Oh-so-OP" FW units like Levithan Dreadought, Whirlwind Scropious, Relic Contemptor Dreadnought, etc. While Nidz has decent amount of High-Quality-and-High-Quantity shooting units even outside FW units).

The troublesome Nidz units for SM to deal with includes:
1. Exocrine, which is T8 Sv3+ and pack 12 shots S7 AP-3 2 dmg. Easily wipe a full squad of Intercessors, bikers and Terminators off the board in one go when buffed by exploding on 6s to hit psychic power
2. Hive Guards, 6 strong unit packs 24 shots (shoot twice stratagem) S8 AP-2 D3 dmg ignore LoS, kills everything not T8+, defensive side they can ignore AP-1 and -2 with the adaptive biology so marine Doctrines is nothing but gak.
3. Zoanthrope / Neurothrope and Biovores, MWs out of the ass, and MW spam is one of the worst nightmare for "elite" army like SM.
4. Malanthrope and Venomthrope, protects the Nidz gunline with -1 to hit. Thank goodness now "subtract to hit roll" is capped at -1.
5. Hordes of Genestealers, they are not hard to kill as SM, but whenever Nidz goes first, they can rush up the field for board control.

It can be reasonably expected that any moderate Nidz 2000pts list is going to have:
HQ: Malanthrope, Neurothrope, Broodlord;
Troops: a couple Ripper Swarms, a block of Termagant screen, 2 blocks of 20 Genestealers;
Elites: 1-2 units of 6 Hiveguards, 1-2 units of 6 Zoanthropes
Heavy Support: 2 Exocrines, 1 full units of Biovores.

If SM going first, then there might still be a chance to deal with them, like lobbing TFC cannon shots on the Genestealers to stop them from running up the field, have some lascannon equivalent shots on the Exocrines to take out maybe one of them, have Droppod Gravcannon Devastators coming down to take maybe one Exocrines out. But if Nidz going first, then disasters begins: the Genestealers runs up the fields denying drop zones for SM and maybe make a T1 charge. Any SM lascannon / missle launcher platfroms will be deleted by Exocrines and Hiveguards, which can vomits a total of 36 S8 AP-2 D3 dmg ignore cover and LoS shots as well as 24 S7 AP-3 2 dmg shots and 12 of them are with exploding 6s to hit. Its not likely that any non-FW SM heavy gun platform with similar points costs of those Nidz gun-beasts can survive such first volley. After that, the Nidz gunline and psykers can just pick SM apart from miles away while other small units sit on objectives raising the banner high.

I think of the scenarios over and over, but it seems like that the only possible counter is to take "Oh-so-OP" Ironhand Chapter, use Ironfather Ferrios and Chief Apothecary, and 20+ Intercessors, 2-3 blocks of 5-6 Aggressors, and Droppod Grav Cannon Devastator, and Stormtalon Gunships. The infantry blocks on ground is to survive through the Nidz crazy firepower with their 5++ / 5+++ and healing of the Apothecary while shoot down Nidz light infantry, although surviving such firepower still largely need to based on luck tbh , it is not convincing to say those Aggressors could survive the Nidz first volley . Droppod Grav Cannon are used to kill the Exocrines T2 after those Genestealer blockade is eliminated by Aggressors and Intercessors, and Stormtalon Gunships will aim those Hiveguards behind the LoS blocking ruins.

Any other thoughts on this case? Any other ideas?
BTW, anyone say Nidz are good in close combat only? Watch those Hive Guards and Exocrines ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10882941.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10882941.page GMT How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second
So, putting the minimum amounts of everything you describe as a typical nid list at 2000pts into battlescribe, I do get to 2300 points, so I guess I'll drop...one of the 20 genestealers, that makes it just about 2000. So we're on the same page here, here's what I get into 2000, without any upgrades because tbh I don't know what the nid upgrades do exactly:

HQ: Malanthrope, Broodlord, Neurothrope.

Troops: 20x genestealers, 30x Termagants (I assume what you meant by "a block"), 2x3 rippers ("a couple".) Going back after deleting the second 20x stealers, I see that I've got 60ish points left so that did turn into 2x4 and 1x3 Rippers.

Elites: 6x Hive Guard, 6x Zoanthropes. Hive guard get the one-per-army ignore AP-1 AP-2 thing.

Fast: Nothing

Heavy: 3x Biovores, 2x Exocrines.

I'm gonna assume the hive fleet that gets the reroll 1s if it stands still in shooting, and since we're talking about them going first, we'll assume that as well.

it seems like the main quandary here is that space marine lists tend to be fairly focused on the primaris infantry these days, and this list has the hive guard and the exocrines who are pretty much perfect for killing primaris with their D3 and flat 2 damage attacks.

Iron Hands do increase their survivability significantly vs flat damage 2 shooting thanks to the 6+FNP. Raven Guard could similarly be helpful for the -1 to hit. if your opponent goes first, he can kill about 10 primaris bodies with the Exocrines, and deal 16 damage with the shoot twice stratagem with the hive guard vs a T7 3+ vehicle chassis.The zoans and biovores will probably average about...six mortal wounds with normal rolling?

Yeah, that's a pretty nasty amount of shooting from a gunline army.

The first thing I'd look at to beat this is deployment drops. All the ripper swarms deep strike, so your opponent is basically going to have the termagants, the broodlord, the biovores, the hive guard, and the genestealers to put down before you're pretty certain where the Exocrines are going to be. Keeping as many targets out of sight from the Exocrines is going to be your top priority, as their shooting is reduced drastically by having to move. Looking at the board, you'll probably be able to tell where they're going just from the terrain setup, because if I were your opponent I would absolutely start the malantrope and hive guard behind a piece of obscuring terrain, and then the two Exocrines touching that piece of terrain so they can see through it.

-1 to hit from the Malanthrope doesn't matter very much if you're within the bubble of a Chapter Master, so I wouldn't worry too much about that for your main gunline troops. Your first priority is going to be using antitank weaponry to hit the Exocrines. Las profile is best for that since he's T8, and even just getting him bracketed is pretty decent. All your anti-infantry is going to want to go into those Genestealers, who are probably coming to you so there may be an opportunity to make your life easier with Aggressors. The genestealers are basically all his melee threat. if you have a couple of Invictus warsuits with the flamer, the genestealers will probably have trouble with that.

To deal with the Hive Guard, I think the best tool in your arsenal is probably flyers. Most marine ignore-LOS weapons are dedicated anti infantry. Given that the Hive Guard almost certainly won't be in cover since they'll be trying to stand behind it, autocannons are just about the perfect thing to rip them up.I wouldn't use deep strikers for this because if your opponent is playing smart, he'll be using his ripper swarms to adaptively screen out his shooters as you kill stuff and trying to direct your deep strikers towards lower priority targets like the biovores and termagants.

The flyer that gets +1 to hit against ground targets and packs twin assault cannons, that's the one I'd go for here. It'd be really nice to get a volley of plasma cannons with max shots against the 6-man squad of hive guard but a smart opponent won't let you do that.

Going second vs this list is definitely rough, but if you can use obscuring terrain to keep out of line of sight of the exocrines, you'll probably lose about 13-ish primaris or 1 medium to large vehicle, which is recoverable. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10883063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10883063.page GMT How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second
The previous poster is correct, terrain is a huge difference maker when two high shooting capability armies meet.

And frankly, going first with/against a gun line army is still an area where 40K has some really poor and unenjoyable play.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10885884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10885884.page GMT Re:How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second

Units

Genestealers are fast and punchy but easy to kill. They are 1 wound, T4, and have a 5+++. 60 bolter hits will wipe the unit. Focus them down with bolters/assault cannons and avoid giving them chances to charge more than one thing at a time.

Gaunts are good at standing on objectives and very little else. (I'm assuming the basic gun gaunt - the close combat ones and the upgraded gun ones are a bit different). Kill the Genestealers, then shoot + charge the Termagants.

Exocrines and Hive Guard do not like melta guns or lascannons, and they don't like to move. Try to outrange them with las, or drop melta in close. Both units also don't like beimg in cc. Hive Guard want to hide out of LOS. Look for ways to force them into the open by denying them targets.

Zoanthropes are tough to crack, but they are expensive and they can only do one thing at a time. Save them for last. Consider putting unimportant units like Rhinos close to them, forcing them to move in ways they don't want to or to waste the smite on something weak. Don't waste heavy weapons on them unless you have nothing else to shoot at. The invul and multiple wounds makes them great at tanking heavy weapons, but they are no better than marines at absorbing bolter fire.

Malanthropes give a 3" -1 to hit bubble. If he is using one, he basically has to pick between using it to cover the gunline or the infantry. Malenthropes are too expensive to reasonably bring more than one. They are characters, so wherever they get stuck you basically accept that those units have a -1.

Venomthropes give a 6" bubble, but lose the abilty to protect mosters if they drop below three models. They are not characters, and are the easiest thing in his army to kill.

Note that the -1 to hit from Venomthropes and Malanthropes explicity do not stack - if you have a +1 to hit he can't use them both to make it a -1.

Deployment

Look to deploy 37 inches away from the Hive Guard and Exocrines. If possible, attempt to deploy such that the Hive Guard have to move out of cover to be in range. Look for chances to put infiltrators in the open in midfield. They make a tempting target for Genestealer charges. The goal is get the stealers out where you can throw every bolter you have at them after they eat a throwaway squad.

Tyranids will come to you. They don't have the range to have a choice. Make them spend two turns walking while taking casualties.

Target Priority

Venomthropes first, if they made the mistake of bringing them. Then Exocrines and Genestealers, then Hive Guard and Gaunts. Zoanthropes last.

Notes

Both Exocrines can have a 5+++. The Adaptive Physiology can be taken twice (once for a CP, once in the place of the warlord trait).

One Exocrine can move and and still shoot at 100% per turn, using a 1CP stratagem.

Most Tyranid players will structure the army as a Kronos detachment (for the reroll 1's) with the gunline in it, and a second detachment with everything else. Special abilities like Synapse and the -1 to hit aura are Hive Fleet specific-a Kraken Malenthrope does not provide Synapse or a -1 to a Kronos Exocrine.

Genestealers can regenerate CP of they kill characters.

Hive Guard are good, but expensive. That 6 man squad is 300 points. 3 full units of Hive Guard and a Neurothrope to babysit them is literally half of an army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10886318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10886318.page GMT Re:How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second
babelfish wrote:
You deal with Tyranids by ........



You are 100% correct on all counts, and as a Tyranid player please have my eternal dislike.

All kidding aside, excellent summary.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10887059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10887059.page GMT Re:How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second
 Verthane wrote:
babelfish wrote:
You deal with Tyranids by ........



You are 100% correct on all counts, and as a Tyranid player please have my eternal dislike.

All kidding aside, excellent summary.


Thank you!

I have been playing Tyranids since 5th edition and i feel that familiarity makes a big difference, both playing and playing against them. The faction is full of things like three Venomthropes protecting monsters but two don't that lead to new players struggling with the faction.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10887150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10887150.page GMT Re:How to deal with Tyranids with Space Marines without Ironhand Forge World Dreads when going second
babelfish wrote:


Thank you!

I have been playing Tyranids since 5th edition and i feel that familiarity makes a big difference, both playing and playing against them. The faction is full of things like three Venomthropes protecting monsters but two don't that lead to new players struggling with the faction.


Hahaha you're quite welcome, I hear you, I'm a very long time Nid and Marine player both. I'm starting off 9th edition on the Marine side (and maybe some Eldar), largely for the same set of reasons you outlined above!

I know myself well enough to know that at some point the God King and his buddies will be back out consuming biomass though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10887156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/790521/10887156.page GMT