<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Traitor Guard"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Traitor Guard GW couldn't make actual Traitor Guard a thing?

Now I'm not talking about the troop tax of 'cultist' that exist now or the FW Guard that will probably never be fully and/or properly integrated into 40k ; I mean actual Traitor Guard like the Blood Pact or Sons.

All of the recent fluff has talked about this regiment turning traitor or this regiment falling to chaos; why not make it an actual usable army if it's so prolific in the fluff.

Two simple ways they could do this:
1. Copy the GSC method of including Guard units in a CSM or Demon army. Separate Detachment with no regimental traits or maybe 5 different Chaos god 'regimental doctrines'
2. In the actual Guard Codex make one of the first choices be Chaos or Imperial with the army gaining the associated Keyword. Then choose regiments, units, etc...


Thoughts?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920860.page GMT Traitor Guard 40K rules for Blackstone Fortress. There was also Renegades and Heretics from Forge World that let you sort of build them. With the Blackstone stuff and R&H clearly being squatted, there's a theory we'll see a full book sometime in 9th.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920870.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920870.page GMT Traitor Guard BSF after all ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920871.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Lord Clinto wrote:
Just finished rereading the Gaunt's Ghost Series for the 4th or 5th times and I it just hit me - is there any reason why GW couldn't make actual Traitor Guard a thing?

Now I'm not talking about the troop tax of 'cultist' that exist now or the FW Guard that will probably never be fully and/or properly integrated into 40k ; I mean actual Traitor Guard like the Blood Pact or Sons.

All of the recent fluff has talked about this regiment turning traitor or this regiment falling to chaos; why not make it an actual usable army if it's so prolific in the fluff.

Two simple ways they could do this:
1. Copy the GSC method of including Guard units in a CSM or Demon army. Separate Detachment with no regimental traits or maybe 5 different Chaos god 'regimental doctrines'
2. In the actual Guard Codex make one of the first choices be Chaos or Imperial with the army gaining the associated Keyword. Then choose regiments, units, etc...


Thoughts?


FW is officially integrated

that aside, yes you could make actual traitor guard, yes that included up to traitor Stormtroopers, yes you could dedicate them to any good you'd like.

Further take on it, Servants of the abyss, will probably be turned at one point into a propper plastic range.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10920891.page GMT Traitor Guard GW only really needs a supplement that says what units you can use, has a few characters, and strats. Unless it’s impossible to make current guard models look rogue due to IG insignia etc]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921363.page GMT Traitor Guard
mrFickle wrote:
If it works on the assumption that these are contemporary legions going rogue then GW only really needs a supplement that says what units you can use, has a few characters, and strats. Unless it’s impossible to make current guard models look rogue due to IG insignia etc


It's insanely easy to make current Guard look rogue. Just shave off the Guard emblems(Catachans only really have them on their guns, Cadians on guns and helmets) and the Cadians' Imperial Eagles on the chest at minimum. Paint on Chaos Stars and/or add spikeys to taste.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921369.page GMT Traitor Guard http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921395.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Its really ridiculous that they never released them in the past. A codex and a few conversion/accessory kits on top of the regular guard range would have let them sell a lot of models. Real missed opportunity that will hopefully be corrected this edition.
They were called Lost and the Damned (3.5, and I think versions in RT and 2) then Renegades & Heretics (5-8 via FW?)

They really could do with a regular codex or even just a GSC-style IG variation, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921415.page GMT Traitor Guard http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921441.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Insectum7 wrote:
Traitor Guard should absolutely should have rules.


Well until recently we had, .. kinda. well we had rules for what ammounts to a bunch of murderhobos worshiipping chaos becaus SCHTOOPID, because that is what the FW index for 8th was... now we don't even have that...

meanwhile some nobody milksops get a whole WD index Feelsbadman.

Spoiler:

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921563.page GMT Traitor Guard CSM although there should me rules to merge all the armies to be a force of chaos]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921599.page GMT Traitor Guard
I think what’s stopping this from happening is that GW don’t want to support them, with a codex and full model support. It also means supporting yet another 40K army, some people argue that 40K has too many armies already.

I don’t know how well Renegades & Heretics sold, though maybe GW have assumed that based on those sales a full release is not worth it. Of course a full release is very different to a Forgeworld release.

Also, what would Traitor Guard bring that Imperial Guard don’t already bring to the table? Especially since Genestealer Cults are now a thing. Is the fact that they can ally with other Chaos factions enough to differentiate them?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921618.page GMT Traitor Guard http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921621.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921623.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
BrianDavion wrote:
personally I'd like to see a full blown lost and damned codex, with generic cultists removed from codex chaos space marines (the cultist unit is problematic back when I started I THOUGHT I wanted cultists in the codex, I started in 5th edition so they weren't a thing but I've since decided cultists are proably bad for the codices internal balance)


The cultist unit is problematic because GW can't write half decent rules for all CSM subfactions.
As exemplified by codex CSM 8th edition, or 4th, or 6th.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
El Torro wrote:

I don’t know how well Renegades & Heretics sold, though maybe GW have assumed that based on those sales a full release is not worth it. Of course a full release is very different to a Forgeworld release.


Badly, because A, the models were upgrade sets ontop of cadian bodies, in a horde army, yes that meant you'd paid 40£ to fully upgrade a squad of cadians into a R&H inf squad, which also had platoon rules so you'd need 2 more of these squads, which gave you at best, (fully kited out) between30 -75 pts.
B: more importantly, their rules support was often, really, lackluster sometimes casually sitting 2-3 editions behind their release, something which changed in late 6th -7th edition , with IA 13. which then led to a massive uptick in players of the faction, because the rules were decent, customizable, and supoorted well.
Granted with 7th in general beeing a downturn in player population because formations, allies and other niceties and was a wierd juxtaposition.

Also, what would Traitor Guard bring that Imperial Guard don’t already bring to the table? Especially since Genestealer Cults are now a thing. Is the fact that they can ally with other Chaos factions enough to differentiate them?


Spoiler:
firstly, Traitor guard would be,optimally, just one subfaction.
R&H or lost and the damned , or cults, or however you like to name them, had a tendency to be a pool of all sorts of heretics and renegades.
The most expansive work was that IA13 which allowed you to represent:

PDF forces, Psyker cults, Mutant uprisings, Hive city rebellions, che guevara style arch heretic revolutionaires hidding behind noble goals, heretek magos of varying preference, Mercenary forces of dubious loyality, turned formations of traitor guard, bloodpact style formations, turned stormtroopers, monotheistic followers of Khorne nurgle slaanesh tzeentch, zombie apocalypse, trained or untrained , etc. etc. and whatever in between you could come up with.

And yes, you were indeed able to represent all these with one list. Did it have some issues?

Yes, from unstackable 6+++ (which should've probably been combinable with another one to form a 5+++), questionable options like , erm grenadierspam (really really mean option) mutants (really really bad option) , a somewhat lackluster psy discipline for the average psyker in the force, mercenaries only hireable by unaligned Chaos forces, covenants (aka marks)all at the same price but quite differing in performance, Ogryns and some other biger gribblies beeing really bad, bs 2+ fortification garisons (mostly due to GW messing up alot at the time, including fortifications) , vehicles that suffered because well hullpoints..., Artillery either beeing worthless or broken if you used the purge formation thanks GW for that one..., A pts handicap for morale improvement to acceptable levels respectively the absolute binarity of either havin really wierdly good morale on units or terribad due to the construction of the morale rules affecting R&H at the time and the baseline morale system. And last but not least, sadly not really a good way to represent cult like structres. Which was about the only thing missing.

Overall, it is a bit like why chaos space marines 3.5 was so liked, customizable to all ends, your dudes were your dudes and the vast expanse of lore for such formations cults etc, allowed for great creative freedom and conversion. Sadly in 8th gw decided to completely yeet that concept, bleigh was dead and instead we got index malefic brimstone spam, with a side of unproofread garbage murderhobos.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921625.page GMT Traitor Guard
El Torro wrote:

I think what’s stopping this from happening is that GW don’t want to support them, with a codex and full model support. It also means supporting yet another 40K army, some people argue that 40K has too many armies already.


The game has too many armies for R&H or Corsairs, but not so many that we won't be adding even more Marines.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921637.page GMT Traitor Guard
 vipoid wrote:
El Torro wrote:

I think what’s stopping this from happening is that GW don’t want to support them, with a codex and full model support. It also means supporting yet another 40K army, some people argue that 40K has too many armies already.


The game has too many armies for R&H or Corsairs, but not so many that we won't be adding even more Marines.



The fact of the matter is, both lists require marginal brainpower and writting skill, not to mention a bit more playtesting due to beeing alot more customizable then their contemporaries, both costs money, it's easier to just CtrlC +CtrlV and then switch some words around.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921640.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
BrianDavion wrote:
personally I'd like to see a full blown lost and damned codex, with generic cultists removed from codex chaos space marines (the cultist unit is problematic back when I started I THOUGHT I wanted cultists in the codex, I started in 5th edition so they weren't a thing but I've since decided cultists are proably bad for the codices internal balance)


I could see this. At this point they got a point rise because they got <legion> traits, then got the <legion> trait stripped, didn't get the point cost back, and then were systematically removed from a lot of stratagems, then got the standard 9th edition point inflation (while their guard counterparts didn't, and they still get special rules, <regiment> and strats).

Being moved away from the chaos marines lets them get reworked in their own environment, and then anyone who wants them can pay the CP tax for a detachment. Or, hopefully, they're workable enough that it can be the other way around- CSM detachments for a LotD army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921851.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921983.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921986.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921994.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?

I have a list in this thread this is how much you failed to actually read.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921999.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10921999.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh

How about Loyalist Scum with csm rules without spikes? Or Dark Eldar using CWE rules with spikes?

R&H were so much more than "guard with spikes". Not Online!!! made a list a few comments back. I won't repeat it, as I hope you have the ability to scroll up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922027.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922027.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh

How about Loyalist Scum with csm rules without spikes?


Probably not the best example to use considering the amount of people that ask for something like that to differentiate Renegade Chaos Marines and Legion ones.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922135.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh

How about Loyalist Scum with csm rules without spikes?


Probably not the best example to use considering the amount of people that ask for something like that to differentiate Renegade Chaos Marines and Legion ones.

Most of those people want loyalist vehicles and weapons with spikes, not csm vehicles and weapons without spikes. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922184.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?


Chaos Spawn, mutants, beastmen, daemon engines, summoned daemons, rituals, improvised weapons and utility vehicles rather than main battle tanks, etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922281.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922281.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?


I can think of infinitely more interesting units for traitor guardsmen than I can for fething space marines at this point. Just off the top of my head, what would be cool:

-Mutant infantry
-Fantasy-style flagellants
-Crazy mutated/possessed ogryn
-Beastmen with 40k versions of minotaurs
-Crazy psykers who have a built in way to get bonuses like weirdboyz where the goal with them is to try and peril so they can turn into spawn/possessed
-Actual dark mechanicus representatives in 40k
-Semi-daemon engine'd guard vehicles

What do marines need? "wow better release another unit of guys with boltguns, don't have many of those. Maybe these boltguns could have...like...maybe they're like bolt SHOTGUNS so the kids we want to play space marines can get them cus' fortnite. We'll model one of the marines doing a fortnite dance, it's brilliant!"
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922497.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
the_scotsman wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?


I can think of infinitely more interesting units for traitor guardsmen than I can for fething space marines at this point. Just off the top of my head, what would be cool:

-Mutant infantry
-Fantasy-style flagellants
-Crazy mutated/possessed ogryn
-Beastmen with 40k versions of minotaurs
-Crazy psykers who have a built in way to get bonuses like weirdboyz where the goal with them is to try and peril so they can turn into spawn/possessed
-Actual dark mechanicus representatives in 40k
-Semi-daemon engine'd guard vehicles

What do marines need? "wow better release another unit of guys with boltguns, don't have many of those. Maybe these boltguns could have...like...maybe they're like bolt SHOTGUNS so the kids we want to play space marines can get them cus' fortnite. We'll model one of the marines doing a fortnite dance, it's brilliant!"


it's a shame that all existed then isn't it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922502.page GMT Traitor Guard GW decided that for some reason being totally worse than the loyalist equivalent didnt mean you could expect to pay less points for your stuff) but I felt the RnH list was pretty fun in 7th. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922503.page GMT Traitor Guard
the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, yes. I had my annoyances about it (like yet another army where GW decided that for some reason being totally worse than the loyalist equivalent didnt mean you could expect to pay less points for your stuff) but I felt the RnH list was pretty fun in 7th.


it was, it had it's fair share of BS though admittedly aswell.
But comparatively in quality torwards rules and balance it still was superior then the rest of the drivel GW at the time threw out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922506.page GMT Traitor Guard GW's shown they're more willing to add new armies (AdMech, GSC) and whilst not hitting Marine levels of popularity, Chaos is still pretty popular. I doubt that the Gellarpox Mutants and Blackstone Fortress stuff was just done in a vacuum.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922516.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
the_scotsman wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?


I can think of infinitely more interesting units for traitor guardsmen than I can for fething space marines at this point. Just off the top of my head, what would be cool:

-Mutant infantry
-Fantasy-style flagellants
-Crazy mutated/possessed ogryn
-Beastmen with 40k versions of minotaurs
-Crazy psykers who have a built in way to get bonuses like weirdboyz where the goal with them is to try and peril so they can turn into spawn/possessed
-Actual dark mechanicus representatives in 40k
-Semi-daemon engine'd guard vehicles

What do marines need? "wow better release another unit of guys with boltguns, don't have many of those. Maybe these boltguns could have...like...maybe they're like bolt SHOTGUNS so the kids we want to play space marines can get them cus' fortnite. We'll model one of the marines doing a fortnite dance, it's brilliant!"


You can Counts As pretty much all of that using the current Guard book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922518.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Platuan4th wrote:
You can Counts As pretty much all of that using the current Guard book.
Unless you want a multi-detachment chaos army.

The absolute least they could have done is a GSC-style rule that replaced doctrines and allowed IG as chaos, and it would have been enough for some creative converted armies. As-is, no, IG really do an extremely poor job standing in for R&H or whatever you want to call them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922619.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
The absolute least they could have done is a GSC-style rule that replaced doctrines and allowed IG as chaos, and it would have been enough for some creative converted armies. As-is, no, IG really do an extremely poor job standing in for R&H or whatever you want to call them.


Yeah, I'd hav e even been ok with a GSC style set-up as the minimum. I had so much fun with my 3.5 IW army, converting Guard to go with my spikey marines. I would love to do that again with my modern CSM stuff. I'm hoping they add something in the next CSM codex that allows it and isn't outright terrible. I have no reason to think anything like that is in the works, but it's been on my wishlist for years now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922667.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922667.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard IG codex until GW gets around to adding a R&H codex.

Daemon allies is the big one, since that's just not an option. Chaos Marines, though, can just be loyalists of whatever chapter is closest to how you want your "Iron Warriors" (IH or IF, probably?) or "Alpha Legion" (RG, likely) or whoever to act. Cult marines are obviously out, but you can rig some "close enough" versions that'll do for an allied faction to a traitor guard army. Dark Mech stuff can be AdMech equivalents, which actually gives you more options on that front.

Rabble, crazed cultists, mutant hordes, etc. can be conscripts. The various flavors of "not-guardsmen" work fine as guard using the various load outs and regiments. Sorcerer cabals are Wyrdvane squads. Ogryn stats for orgyrns with tentacles (or spawn, they fit that "big, beefy thing that's going to punch you to death" category and you save yourself having to roll a bunch of d3/d6s every turn). Beastmen are iffy, as there's not much in the way of T4 in the army, which really only leaves you with buffed catachans (think of the +1 Sv being sort of like a +1 T?) or allied in melee scouts (heavier armor than normal, but bestigors were a thing). Bloodthirsty possessed tanks can just run the strat for better WS in melee (still a bad plan, but so is paying more for a leman russ that is slightly less bad in melee, so we'll call it a wash).

It's like my eternal project to make an army of actual veterans of the long war out of all kinds of chaos bits (and plenty of varanguard, if I can ever find a way to nab enough without selling a kidney) that uses Custodes rules (if Steve isn't more impressive than a random loyalist marine after 10,000 years of fighting and selling his soul for power, I think we might know who's next in line when sacrifice time rolls around). It's not ideal, but it works well enough.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922673.page GMT Traitor Guard GW screwing you over and moving on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922698.page GMT Traitor Guard BSF stuff, and maybe play with unit size as well, you get:

Traitor Commissar
Traitor Ogryn
Rogue Psykers
Firebrands
Traitor Guard unit
Beastmen
Negavolts (Dark Mechanicus)
Regular old Cultists


That's pretty fly. Again, you have to finesse it- squad sizes of 7 for your guardsmen, 4 for Negavolts and Beastmen are weak. The unit limit is similarly ridiculous- at one time, GW was selling antagonist kits and RAW, if you already had BSF, you couldn't use any more than what came in the box.

It's like GW intentional limited their own sales potential for no really good reason.

I play Crusade with friends only, so I can do literally whatever I want if I can convince my crew that it's reasonable, and changing squad sizes to incorporate a max of 10/ unit, and then kicking out unit limitation (beyond Ro3) would be seen as very reasonable.

Characters summoning Daemons, and corrupted vehicles is a bit harder to pitch. I want my BSF Beastmen to have access to shamans and Herdstone too, so that's a real stretch.

But either way, we are working with a pretty solid core. And I do believe, sincerely that we will get a dex. The fact that R&H wasn't reprinted in CA actually convinced me more, rather than diminishing my hopes as it did for some on Dakka. Had the reprinted, that would have been evidence to me that they intended to stick with a rather lack-luster status quo.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922718.page GMT Traitor Guard IA:13 sat on shelf...


Urgggh...the inhumanity

On the plus side, I really do hope we get a proper traitor guard faction. Proof of concept minis are out and it wouldn't take too much effort to make a codex i.e. use IA:13
.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10922749.page GMT Re:Traitor Guard
 Trimarius wrote:
I get wanting bespoke rules as a sort of faction "validation" (we all have pet projects we want done), but there's not that much stuff that you couldn't represent with the IG codex until GW gets around to adding a R&H codex.

Daemon allies is the big one, since that's just not an option. Chaos Marines, though, can just be loyalists of whatever chapter is closest to how you want your "Iron Warriors" (IH or IF, probably?) or "Alpha Legion" (RG, likely) or whoever to act. Cult marines are obviously out, but you can rig some "close enough" versions that'll do for an allied faction to a traitor guard army. Dark Mech stuff can be AdMech equivalents, which actually gives you more options on that front.

Rabble, crazed cultists, mutant hordes, etc. can be conscripts. The various flavors of "not-guardsmen" work fine as guard using the various load outs and regiments. Sorcerer cabals are Wyrdvane squads. Ogryn stats for orgyrns with tentacles (or spawn, they fit that "big, beefy thing that's going to punch you to death" category and you save yourself having to roll a bunch of d3/d6s every turn). Beastmen are iffy, as there's not much in the way of T4 in the army, which really only leaves you with buffed catachans (think of the +1 Sv being sort of like a +1 T?) or allied in melee scouts (heavier armor than normal, but bestigors were a thing). Bloodthirsty possessed tanks can just run the strat for better WS in melee (still a bad plan, but so is paying more for a leman russ that is slightly less bad in melee, so we'll call it a wash).

It's like my eternal project to make an army of actual veterans of the long war out of all kinds of chaos bits (and plenty of varanguard, if I can ever find a way to nab enough without selling a kidney) that uses Custodes rules (if Steve isn't more impressive than a random loyalist marine after 10,000 years of fighting and selling his soul for power, I think we might know who's next in line when sacrifice time rolls around). It's not ideal, but it works well enough.


I've found that my Renegades & Heretics can be run just fine as Guard, but what I can't do- and would really like to- is ally in a small contingent of Death Guard to lead the rabble. Playing Death Guard models using loyalist SM rules is problematic enough, let alone when you start getting into daemon engines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923622.page GMT Traitor Guard 40k is like having Genestealer Cults literally only having purestrain stealers and the Patriarch as the models present. They're the toughest of the bunch, but like CSM they're not the ones that do all the legwork and fighting to subsume society.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923640.page GMT Traitor Guard GSC style book?
Or, possibly use GSC rules and model things to fit?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923913.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Grimskul wrote:
Even fluff wise, there should be more representation for Traitor Guard/Renegades+Heretics in game, because the bulk of rebellions and Black Crusades are based around them. Cultists are a poor reflection of the variety in the masses that are duped or willingly sell themselves to the Dark Gods, they're basically all the equivalent of marauders and the other warbands from WarCry showing the disparate masses that comprise a lot of Chaos' subversive might. Not having them in some way in 40k is like having Genestealer Cults literally only having purestrain stealers and the Patriarch as the models present. They're the toughest of the bunch, but like CSM they're not the ones that do all the legwork and fighting to subsume society.


You're falling into that trap of thinking that falling to Chaos instantly turns you into a bespiked crazy person. If everyone went around yelling about blood gods at the first sign if thinking maybe the Imperium is a bit iffy then Chaos uprisings wouldn't get anywhere. As people have said the current IG book is fine for representing Traitor Guard and you would just need to reflect it via conversions/painting. Just because you think Tzeentch has some good ideas doesn't result in you completely forgetting what "First rank fire, second rank fire" means. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923949.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923949.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Even fluff wise, there should be more representation for Traitor Guard/Renegades+Heretics in game, because the bulk of rebellions and Black Crusades are based around them. Cultists are a poor reflection of the variety in the masses that are duped or willingly sell themselves to the Dark Gods, they're basically all the equivalent of marauders and the other warbands from WarCry showing the disparate masses that comprise a lot of Chaos' subversive might. Not having them in some way in 40k is like having Genestealer Cults literally only having purestrain stealers and the Patriarch as the models present. They're the toughest of the bunch, but like CSM they're not the ones that do all the legwork and fighting to subsume society.


You're falling into that trap of thinking that falling to Chaos instantly turns you into a bespiked crazy person. If everyone went around yelling about blood gods at the first sign if thinking maybe the Imperium is a bit iffy then Chaos uprisings wouldn't get anywhere. As people have said the current IG book is fine for representing Traitor Guard and you would just need to reflect it via conversions/painting. Just because you think Tzeentch has some good ideas doesn't result in you completely forgetting what "First rank fire, second rank fire" means.


And you fall into the trap of not actually having read the rules that existed or the background lore which ranges these from completly flying rodent gak crazy chaos empires to only recently turned aswell.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blndmage wrote:
What about a GSC style book?
Or, possibly use GSC rules and model things to fit?


There is an exemple of a turned to nurgle GSC .
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10923953.page GMT Traitor Guard
Not Online!!! wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blndmage wrote:
What about a GSC style book?
Or, possibly use GSC rules and model things to fit?


There is an exemple of a turned to nurgle GSC .


In 2nd Ed, Chaos was the only non-Nid Ally GSC could take, too. They fluffed it out as Cults sticking together to protect themselves against the authorities as well as Chaos using any tool they could to create anarchy in the Imperium.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924422.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Sim-Life wrote:
As people have said the current IG book is fine for representing Traitor Guard and you would just need to reflect it via conversions/painting.


It's fine for representing Traitor Guard, so long as you don't want to ally in any other Chaos factions, and if the specific kind of Traitor Guard you want to run is a just-turned Guard regiment. If you want Blood Pact, a populist uprising, pipe-wielding mutant rabble, or a Chaos cult (complete with daemons), you're out of luck.

I mean, there's a reason people liked the Lost And The Damned and Renegades & Heretics lists, even back in editions where there were no keywords or stratagems and so no obstacle to running Chaos Guardsmen in the first place.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924580.page GMT Traitor Guard
Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924598.page GMT Traitor Guard HWS', Leman Russes, Chimeras, Sentinels). They'd then presumably share the same option to take Guard detachments as a <Traitor Guard> Regiment replacement.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924610.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.


Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924634.page GMT Traitor Guard
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.


Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.



None of which the L&D or R&H lists were good at giving them either AND the R&H list specifically didn't let you represent the fact that they were as organized, equipped, and well trained as the Guard specifically because the whole point was to rep ill trained, ill equipped, ill disciplined ad hoc militias and cults. As I said, it's better than the other options, I never said it was perfect.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924664.page GMT Traitor Guard
 Platuan4th wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.


Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.



None of which the L&D or R&H lists were good at giving them either AND the R&H list specifically didn't let you represent the fact that they were as organized and well trained as the Guard. as I said, it's better than the other options. I never said it was perfect.


Bloody handed reaver OR heretek magos both came closer .

Tbf it's a shitshow regardless especially if you allready had such an army...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924665.page GMT Traitor Guard
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.


Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.



None of which the L&D or R&H lists were good at giving them either AND the R&H list specifically didn't let you represent the fact that they were as organized and well trained as the Guard. as I said, it's better than the other options. I never said it was perfect.


Bloody handed reaver OR heretek magos both came closer .


We'll have to agree to disagree. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/791864/10924675.page GMT