wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not all codices are balanced in terms of the quantity and quality of Elite and FA slots.
In view of the actual discussion, Necrons have quite useful choice in the Elite and FA department, notably Wraiths, Scarabs and Tomb Blades on one side, and Lychguard and Praetorians on the other.

Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.

 Denegaar wrote:
One of the "fastest" factions of the game, and I have 6 FA options.

- 5 of them locked behind a subfaction, just one open to all the army
- 3 of them are beasts, I'm not really sure what to tell about them, birds are fine I guess.

Reavers and Scourges are cool I guess, with their problems.

Breton wrote:
Which slots does your codex skimp and splurge on?

Breton wrote:
I'm thinking GW put too many FA units in the Elite slot because they're good even if they are fast.

How many of your borderline Elite units become somewhat good if they're in the FA slot?

If they're in the FA slot with a minor tweak?

A.T. wrote:

Breton wrote:
Which slots does your codex skimp and splurge on?

The new sisters:
- Troops: one unit, almost always 5 models bare with occasional special weapons
- Fast: two units, the first bodies to carry four deepstriking melta or flame pistols (and decent enough at it), the other a mechanised scout unit that can't scout while mechanised
- Heavy: four units, a big shooty missile predator type thing, two variants on fragile close combat dreadnoughts, and heavy bolter/multimelta infantry
- Elites: all the units. Twelve in all. A mix of aura givers, assault units, and redundant units.
- HQs: two, one good/economic but immobile, the other making up the numbers

If the dominions could still scout in their vehicles i'd say the sisters would go 2 for 2 with their fast attack. On foot not so much.

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.

I didn't think it was. I was just looking through a couple codexes and noticed FA was often the smallest non-troop section and the suckiest. Figured I'd ask other people who play other armies if they had the same experience. It seems like the good FA when into the Elite section because they were more Elite than they were FA. Or Something.

Breton wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not all codices are balanced in terms of the quantity and quality of Elite and FA slots.
In view of the actual discussion, Necrons have quite useful choice in the Elite and FA department, notably Wraiths, Scarabs and Tomb Blades on one side, and Lychguard and Praetorians on the other.

That's what I was wondering. If you were making a list with the Rule of 1 instead of the Rule of 3 (So obviously exempting Troops) which slots will you have a harder time finding something to fill than finding something to cut? Now some lists just have more datasheets so lets make it a fair comparison. How many sheets do you want, and how many are left? You just listed two Necron Sheets, how many FA sheets do they have? 2 out of how many are good? And not counting FW. Not that FW doesn't count but it's not widespread and frequently aimed for these holes when it wasn't a giant monster machine or a cosmetic resculpt.

For example in Marines, I've got 9 FA sheets, Only 1 is currently good (Inceptors). After the MM changes and a standalone kit a few more MAY be good.

Move Reivers to FA and make Grapnel+Chutes the same as Jump Packs (in price and effect), and they could be good there too.

But right now, there's no way I can find three different FA choices I want to use out of 9.

I've got about 17 HS choices 6 or 7 I could easily field, 2 or 3 would be a nice points fill on the borderline.

I've got about 27 Elite sheets. Just doing a quick count, not checking it twice. And most of them are likely where the flavor of the army is coming from so most of them can be taken if they fit in your theme.

Reivers would probably switch to good if both Grapnel+Chute=Jump Pack in cost and effect along with a move to FA. But they're really not right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xerxeskingofking wrote:


its also worth noting that while you might only be able to name 3 FA choices for marines that you'd play, the Admech codex only has two....period.

I can only name 1, but I did add the out of X to the question as you were writing this because I agree context matters too.

BrianDavion wrote:


Umm Outriders are fast attack and they're pretty solid.
fast attack is proably the weaker part of the marines codex yes (honestly thats more common then not with most codices) but I'd not complain about it, especially given 9th edition is giving Marines 3 new entries to fast attack (Outriders, the ATV and the Primaris Land Speeders)

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


Umm Outriders are fast attack and they're pretty solid.
fast attack is proably the weaker part of the marines codex yes (honestly thats more common then not with most codices) but I'd not complain about it, especially given 9th edition is giving Marines 3 new entries to fast attack (Outriders, the ATV and the Primaris Land Speeders)

Outriders aren't really out. They're the "when they get a kit they'll be good" I've been referring to. They're also 3 and only 3. I hate those units, but some of it is my 5/10 100, 1000 OCD.

BrianDavion wrote:


given we've not seen a multipart kit breton I don't think they ARE getting a kit.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


given we've not seen a multipart kit breton I don't think they ARE getting a kit.

We haven't actually seen any of the Indomitus Kits yet. And I expect we will see Outrider kits, but not until the starter set sales peter out.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.

I didn't think it was. I was just looking through a couple codexes and noticed FA was often the smallest non-troop section and the suckiest. Figured I'd ask other people who play other armies if they had the same experience. It seems like the good FA when into the Elite section because they were more Elite than they were FA. Or Something.

there are no fast CSM elits though, so no, Good FA entering elites is a distinclty SM phenomenon.

Overall i guess we can't really complain about chaos spawn, for it's price, it's what it is and on average does what it should, even if a bit slow.
The rest of the section either relies on specific subfactions and combos, like literally any other CSM dex choice does, because feth you for wanting a unit working without psy, subfaction, stratagem combination.
Bikers f.e. at the very least need if they want to melee Khorne, icon, and RC or a psyker. If shooty some support char and slaanesh, but there are other units which take the strat for double shooting making shooty bikers a bit of a waste.
Raptors, without Nightlords are either 3 x plasma in 5 mobile dudes, stuck at 1W, there's an argument to be made for purge for full rerolls, but ehh, to expensive, and if you want to use them as the intended role it's khorne nightlords with strat and HQ support... (khorne beeing etremely unfluffy for nightlords anyways so think about that what you want)
Warp talons, same story, but atleast daemons and usefull ability, either nightlords or any faction that can make good use of legion daemons. still for what they do way to overcosted.

 Nevelon wrote:


While not full sprue pics, we have some solid details (including official pictures) on the assault intercessors and bladeguard vets with new options. So saying we’ve not seen and Indomitus kits is not entirely accurate.

I think the outriders are fine bare-bones. If they actually get options, they can only go up from there. Even just a CC toy for the sarge will reap some pretty good rewards seeing how many attacks they put out.

 Nevelon wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


given we've not seen a multipart kit breton I don't think they ARE getting a kit.

We haven't actually seen any of the Indomitus Kits yet. And I expect we will see Outrider kits, but not until the starter set sales peter out.

While not full sprue pics, we have some solid details (including official pictures) on the assault intercessors and bladeguard vets with new options. So saying we’ve not seen and Indomitus kits is not entirely accurate.

I think the outriders are fine bare-bones. If they actually get options, they can only go up from there. Even just a CC toy for the sarge will reap some pretty good rewards seeing how many attacks they put out.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.

I didn't think it was. I was just looking through a couple codexes and noticed FA was often the smallest non-troop section and the suckiest. Figured I'd ask other people who play other armies if they had the same experience. It seems like the good FA when into the Elite section because they were more Elite than they were FA. Or Something.

there are no fast CSM elits though, so no, Good FA entering elites is a distinclty SM phenomenon.

Overall i guess we can't really complain about chaos spawn, for it's price, it's what it is and on average does what it should, even if a bit slow.
The rest of the section either relies on specific subfactions and combos, like literally any other CSM dex choice does, because feth you for wanting a unit working without psy, subfaction, stratagem combination.
Bikers f.e. at the very least need if they want to melee Khorne, icon, and RC or a psyker. If shooty some support char and slaanesh, but there are other units which take the strat for double shooting making shooty bikers a bit of a waste.
Raptors, without Nightlords are either 3 x plasma in 5 mobile dudes, stuck at 1W, there's an argument to be made for purge for full rerolls, but ehh, to expensive, and if you want to use them as the intended role it's khorne nightlords with strat and HQ support... (khorne beeing etremely unfluffy for nightlords anyways so think about that what you want)
Warp talons, same story, but atleast daemons and usefull ability, either nightlords or any faction that can make good use of legion daemons. still for what they do way to overcosted.

Once they go to 2W warp talons won't seem quite so overpriced, they'll be even better at taking objectives from enemy units and holding them, though you are correct that it will only be for Eighth Legion armies. Raptors will be in the same boat.

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


given we've not seen a multipart kit breton I don't think they ARE getting a kit.

We haven't actually seen any of the Indomitus Kits yet. And I expect we will see Outrider kits, but not until the starter set sales peter out.

While not full sprue pics, we have some solid details (including official pictures) on the assault intercessors and bladeguard vets with new options. So saying we’ve not seen and Indomitus kits is not entirely accurate.

I think the outriders are fine bare-bones. If they actually get options, they can only go up from there. Even just a CC toy for the sarge will reap some pretty good rewards seeing how many attacks they put out.

Yeah, I've already said I don't see them getting a complicated kit. So much of their model is already pretty much fixed. They have to sit in the saddle, they pretty much have to have both feet on the pedals, and one hand on the handlebars.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.

I didn't think it was. I was just looking through a couple codexes and noticed FA was often the smallest non-troop section and the suckiest. Figured I'd ask other people who play other armies if they had the same experience. It seems like the good FA when into the Elite section because they were more Elite than they were FA. Or Something.

there are no fast CSM elits though, so no, Good FA entering elites is a distinclty SM phenomenon.

Overall i guess we can't really complain about chaos spawn, for it's price, it's what it is and on average does what it should, even if a bit slow.
The rest of the section either relies on specific subfactions and combos, like literally any other CSM dex choice does, because feth you for wanting a unit working without psy, subfaction, stratagem combination.
Bikers f.e. at the very least need if they want to melee Khorne, icon, and RC or a psyker. If shooty some support char and slaanesh, but there are other units which take the strat for double shooting making shooty bikers a bit of a waste.
Raptors, without Nightlords are either 3 x plasma in 5 mobile dudes, stuck at 1W, there's an argument to be made for purge for full rerolls, but ehh, to expensive, and if you want to use them as the intended role it's khorne nightlords with strat and HQ support... (khorne beeing etremely unfluffy for nightlords anyways so think about that what you want)
Warp talons, same story, but atleast daemons and usefull ability, either nightlords or any faction that can make good use of legion daemons. still for what they do way to overcosted.

Once they go to 2W warp talons won't seem quite so overpriced, they'll be even better at taking objectives from enemy units and holding them, though you are correct that it will only be for Eighth Legion armies. Raptors will be in the same boat.

1 slight issue, though, the prices ATM are for 1 W models, chances are someone at gw thought their price was too low and hiked it, and we get then another hike for the "upgrade " for 2 w.
which is atm the more likely scenario, sadly.

Breton wrote:
Which slots does your codex skimp and splurge on?

For example, Marines have a lot of good elites, and few good Fast Attack choices. Its very easy to find four different Elites I want to include. Its hard to find even 3 different FA I want to include.

What are your Armies like?

BrianDavion wrote:
hellhounds might get better once they extend the range on flamers.

Lammia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
hellhounds might get better once they extend the range on flamers.

Why?

Breton wrote:

Lammia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
hellhounds might get better once they extend the range on flamers.

Why?

The Flamers will be closer in range to the Inferno Cannon.