Wakshaani
Post Sep/21/2020 21:55:24 Subject: Who are the Non-LOW Supreme Commanders?
There aren't any YET, but as for who it'll be?

Probably a Marine Chapter Master. Probably a Necron Phaeron. Probably a Daemon Prince.

Past that?

No one knows.... yet.

 Dysartes wrote:
Craftworld Eldar seem too de-centralised for a singular Supreme Commander

Other Imperial factions are tricky ones - if you view them as parts of Imperium, then Roboute covers the Supreme Commander role for them all, as that's kinda his current position within the Imperium. If you want to break it down a bit, then none of the AdMech, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Silence or Sisters of Battle have a suitable figure(head).

I think that also applies to the Grey Knights, as I don't think their Chapter Master is currently a model in the game, is it?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect it'll go to minis of characters that are the unchallanged "supreme commanders" of a wider faction Ghaz and Shadowsun are obvious ones. and I could see a strong case for Abaddon.

I'm not sure if Dear Abby gets it. They've worked awful hard turning Chaos Soup into Black Legion, DG, etc. Letting him Soup back in would erode a lot of it. He is the kind of character that should (assume we're guessing the intent correctly), but I don't think they'll take that step backwards. That's why I went with Bile, he's more Mercenary and already somewhat exiled from Emperor's Children. Even if Fulgrim shows up, Bile is unlikely to reunite. The difference between Bile and Typhus, is Bile trades his talents off the battlefield for troops on the field while Typhus is actually rebelling/competing in the Legion against Mortarion, much to the delight of Nurgle.

Wut?

Abaddon for Supreme Commander is basically a lock-in for Codex Chaos Marines. Supreme Commanders aren't those characters that are 'mercenary' or whatever nonsense. They're those characters who draw loyalties from folks outside of their named faction. Abaddon had Black Legionnaires who hailed from the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Thousand Sons, etc.

Bile is just a dude running around, playing mad scientist.

It's like saying "Yarrick should be the Guard Supreme Commander!"....yeah, no? He shouldn't be. He's a Big Deal to the Armageddon Steel Legion and those who fought alongside of him on Armageddon. But so is Creed for the Cadians and anyone who fought in the 13th Black Crusade. We have zero Guard characters that feasibly should be a Supreme Commander at this juncture.

But Bile does it with mixed warbands.

Yarrick is one that could qualify He's got Cross Regiment special rules, and no set Regiment to foul up Vox and Orders.

One interesting thing while I was looking up some of these things Ghaz, Shadowsun, Jain Zar and Bile were all in Psychic Awakening.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

But he isn't the "supreme commander" of all csm. He's the supreme commander of the Black Legion, which includes many defectors from other legions. He can get other legions and warbands to join in his Black Crusades, but many of those don't consider him any more of a supreme commander than the non-American Allies considered Roosevelt their supreme commander during WW2. And plenty of Legionnaires from other legions have no problem telling him that to his face, please see Talos in Soul Hunter.

I don't doubt that gw will give him the Supreme Commander keyword so he can be used in this way for all the Legions, but they will be going against their own lore if they do so. And they will be relegating all the Legions to just being "Black Legion but painted different" again, and that's not the direction I personally want to see the faction to continue to be taken down. But yeah, they'll probably do it, in order to sell that £40 model.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:
I would have though Abaddon is exactly what the detachment is for - he is the grand Warmaster of Chaos, literally the supreme commander of an entire super-faction’s forces and he’s a nearly £40 faction-locked model.

Being able to take him alongside other Chaos forces while not messing with his BLACK LEGION keyword or having other forces ‘counts as’ BL seems exactly what GW is trying to encourage

But he isn't the "supreme commander" of all csm. He's the supreme commander of the Black Legion, which includes many defectors from other legions. He can get other legions and warbands to join in his Black Crusades, but many of those don't consider him any more of a supreme commander than the non-American Allies considered Roosevelt their supreme commander during WW2. And plenty of Legionnaires from other legions have no problem telling him that to his face, please see Talos in Soul Hunter.

I don't doubt that gw will give him the Supreme Commander keyword so he can be used in this way for all the Legions, but they will be going against their own lore if they do so. And they will be relegating all the Legions to just being "Black Legion but painted different" again, and that's not the direction I personally want to see the faction to continue to be taken down. But yeah, they'll probably do it, in order to sell that £40 model.

I disagree.

While clearly only the Black Legion (and other warbands in their thrall) directly report to him, he’s generally regarded as the individual most able to cajole forces from all the different legions and various other Chaos warbands into a single force capable of prosecuting a cohesive campaign, and has done so multiple times.

Yeah the support from many of the warbands that make up his crusades will be grudging, and in a lot of cases only because he’s doing something for them, but they’re still contributing to his campaign and acting under his strategy. And that IMO is what ‘supreme commander’ means in this context and Abaddon fits it to a T.

He’s certainly much more deserving of the slot than the Daemon Primarchs who are natively allowed to fill it.

And to be frank, other than Guilliman, Vect and maybe Shadowsun there are no individuals who an entire faction’s armed forces report to. Taking such a restrictive approach to what ‘SUPREME COMMANDER’ means is rather missing the point of what it’s trying to achieve I think.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We have to "wait and see" whether or not it would be worth it to include Gulliman in an army that isn't Ultramarines. If he retains the ULTRAMARINES keyword he will cause any army made up of another chapter to lose its super doctrine. The same can be said for Abaddon if he retains the BLACK LEGION keyword and the new csm codex includes mono-legion bonuses of some kind. We don't know how the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword will work. It's possible it could be given to generic characters like chapter masters. Gw seems to be trying to make armies "look right", I don't think they want to see Magnus leading an army of Iron Warriors.

If Abaddon retains his current rules and gains the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword all he will add to a non Black Legion army is 2CP and auto pass for morale for any HERETIC ASTARTES units within 12 of him. That's fine for the supreme commander of the Black Legion, but not worth 220 points for any other legion.