<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Drop Pod Theoryhammer"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Drop Pod Theoryhammer"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Drop Pod Theoryhammer

Spoiler:

as one of the lists going all old marines, and I've been kicking Drop Pods around in my head ever since I got the 9th ed book in the Indomitus Box.

I came to a few conclusions/assumptions on seeing the new missions.

Infiltrating onto objectives is just another way of asking the opponent to get their charges off as early as possible. 6" move + 7" average charge is a 13" threat radius compared to a 12" away objective.

By the same token, it doesn't matter how you get there, deep strike, infiltrate, etc you want to be ~12" away from their line to score the objective at the top of turn 2. And its better to be there first because with enough models and enough footprint, you can screen them out of range to contest.

Getting Multiple Turn 1 Infiltrate/Deepstrike units will be expensive/difficult for most armies.

There are 3 choices for two mission aspects - Deploy long side, short side, or angle/quarters/weird. 4 objectives No Mans Land Diamond, 6 objectives mostly noman's in a bar shape, or unique objectives. Pg 289 and 293 are good basic examples: If there are 6 objectives you each usually get a deployment zone freebie like Bingo, with 4 usually one is 4" away, 2 are 12" and one is 16" or so - beyond normal max Advance Range.

If I go first, the easy answer is to drop pod on at at least three objectives. Most armies aren't clearing 26 wounds off of two objectives on the same turn. I'm going to have two, you have at best 1, and I either have the third, or it's contested. So in turn 2 I'm going to get VP for holding some, and for holding more than you do (common theme in Objective missions)

If I go second:

In a 4 Objective mission, you're going to have your close one, you're unlikely to reach the center most two without infiltrate or charge, and REALLY unlikely to reach the one near my line needing Infiltrate + advance most of the time. That said, you can get within 6" of the center most, so I can't drop Pod directly on them (not within 9" interestingly for the units inside but not immediately apparent for the pod itself which appears CAN be within 9" - Oh that IS interesting. You can (technically because GW didn't specify "they" at the right time I'm guessing) Deep Strike the Pod say 6" away, deploy the unit 3" behind it so not within 9" - And it's probably destined for a quick FAQ - not all that potent -but interesting applications especially in connection with an empty pod which would have no unit needing to be 9" away landing directly on an empty objective)

In a 6 Objective mission, I get a freebie, you get a freebie during deployment, leaving 4 in no Man's land - in the example I landed on based on a quick scan of the map image two will be within 2" of your zone (16" of my) edge, 2 will be within 2" of my (16" of your) edge. It would be rather difficult to land on yours but childs play to land on mine. Turn 2 we're both going to rake in VP The key is to disrupt/contest just one of yours.. In the missions where the objective is way out in the boondocks far from everyone the Pod might be better. Land an empty Pod, and use the Tacs on foot somewhere else. Lines of Battle Pg301 is screaming Drop Pods for the easy win. Of course the map on All Out War, Page 302 is screaming GW forgot they changed board sizes. On Most boards, using their suggested size a couple objectives would be set up off the board edge for everything but Onslaught Games.

So what am I missing? I've brought this up before, and a number of people keep tossing an easy "it wont work if you don't go first" but without any depth of argument. I think Drop Pods are about to be a thing. I think working half the time (i.e. Going first) on almost any map , and still working on many maps (while going second) makes it pretty effective. At the original time I was thinking empty pods with Primaris or a rare Tac Squad etc. Now that Old Marines are 2W it gets even easier to see.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972223.page GMT Re:Drop Pod Theoryhammer
1 - They are very easy to zone. The drop pods and marines have a very large footprint - which when combined with terrain and smaller boards can make finding a good DZ difficult.
2 - If your opponent has infiltrating units (or god forbid ACTUAL Infiltrators) the 280 points invested into the drop pods essentially become an expensive redeploy tool
3 - If your opponent has fast units (IE anything with 12" base move) can force the above to happen if they get the first turn
4 - They can't fall back and are perfectly safe to charge. Units hiding is a major problem - units using your drop pod to both hide from shooting AND move further up the field can be absolutely disastrous.
This alone is generally enough to warrant not bringing them IMO, or if you do you have to be super careful with positioning. I've already lost games because of this.

That's not to say they can't be made to work, but it's going to require good positioning. They give loads of strategic mobility and in certain match-ups can be thrown in the backlines as board blockers.
And while it doesn't explicitly say you can't put drop pods within 9" I wouldn't build an army on that - it doesn't feel like RAI, and I wouldn't be surprised if they errata it.

Also if you're dead set on doing something like this - consider fitting in a company champion and chaplain. The WLT for the company champion allows all units within 6" to reroll failed charge rolls, the chaplain can force out a +2 to charge bonus for units within 6" and they can both fit into a pod.
Essentially giving you a 7" rerolling charge that requires nothing but 2 CP. Being able to land, shoot, and then reliably charge forward into squishy targets or screens is pretty potent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972280.page GMT Re:Drop Pod Theoryhammer

Vilehydra wrote:
There are a couple of issues that I've run into with full drop pod lists -

1 - They are very easy to zone. The drop pods and marines have a very large footprint - which when combined with terrain and smaller boards can make finding a good DZ difficult.

I didn't count the doors before, I don't count them now. It might be easy on Battle Round 2 or beyond but Turn 1 I expect most people in most areas can land them at least close to where they want. During the big controversy I was tempted to cut my doors off and magnetize them to simulate "blowing the doors off". The only reason I didn't had more to do with laziness/priorities than rules.

2 - If your opponent has infiltrating units (or god forbid ACTUAL Infiltrators) the 280 points invested into the drop pods essentially become an expensive redeploy tool

Actual Infiltrators? Bring it on. I'll be thrilled every time I see Infiltrators. On the one hand, we've shared lists so I know what you're bringing, if you have that much infiltration my Drop Pods suddenly become Empty VP/Corner Chasers/Screeners/etc. Actual Infiltrators are super expensive and overpriced. Incursors are the scary bargains. Actual Infiltrators are almost as much as a Tac Squad with Pod. Incursors are barely more than Intercessors, and have the weapon option trifecta, optional Mortal Wound Mine, and power armor save. The Phobos armor probably should have been 4+ with a "Camo Generation Field" that stacks with actual camo cloaks for characters and Eliminators. And Infiltrators need a big price drop.

3 - If your opponent has fast units (IE anything with 12" base move) can force the above to happen if they get the first turn

The only thing I can think of I'd be worried about in this manner are Custodes Jet Bikes. Maybe Troupes or some Eldar? Maybe Genestealers advancing. Beyond that, it's the same as Infiltrate only better. If you're on the objectives first, I'll just march, and charge with ObSec vs your 12" moving unit that probably doesn't have ObSec. I still score if you're there. Is there something else with a 12" move and ObSec? The reason Infiltrators/Incursors work on Pre/First Turn Objectives is they have ObSec so they can afford to give ~7" of free movement to the other guy's troop unit, screen out enough of the bodies to make sure they have more ObSec in range than you do, and win an Objective Constest.

4 - They can't fall back and are perfectly safe to charge. Units hiding is a major problem - units using your drop pod to both hide from shooting AND move further up the field can be absolutely disastrous.
This alone is generally enough to warrant not bringing them IMO, or if you do you have to be super careful with positioning. I've already lost games because of this.

That's not to say they can't be made to work, but it's going to require good positioning. They give loads of strategic mobility and in certain match-ups can be thrown in the backlines as board blockers.
And while it doesn't explicitly say you can't put drop pods within 9" I wouldn't build an army on that - it doesn't feel like RAI, and I wouldn't be surprised if they errata it.

Yeah, I said much the same thing - just something I saw while working with the new Battlescribe

And it's probably destined for a quick FAQ

Also if you're dead set on doing something like this - consider fitting in a company champion and chaplain. The WLT for the company champion allows all units within 6" to reroll failed charge rolls, the chaplain can force out a +2 to charge bonus for units within 6" and they can both fit into a pod.
Essentially giving you a 7" rerolling charge that requires nothing but 2 CP. Being able to land, shoot, and then reliably charge forward into squishy targets or screens is pretty potent.

We're still in lockdown around here, so I'm just playing in my head not really set on anything. Its also more focused than most of what I actually play with. I really like the one of everything and see what combos during the game kind of lists. I haven't looked at all the maps for all the missions, but if you can do this sort of thing going second on even half of them, that means for 75% of the missions a Drop Pod Assault themed army would be fairly potent. (assuming you go first half the time, and half the rest of the time going second still works). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972296.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972465.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972465.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer

Galas wrote:
As much as people likes drop pods, agaisnt a meele army if you try to use them outside your deployment zone is nearly an auto win. They can use them to sling themselves towards your lines at the same time they are inmune to shooting.

That is an issue. Drop Pods vs a Green Tide, or Bug Swarm isn't the best idea in any edition, but you can adapt here too Pods in the back'ish area for more shooting, or to close off pathways. . Nor would you do any better using Infiltrate on the Objectives, so not really a flaw with the Pod so much as incompatible styles]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972490.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972534.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer BA have 12" movers that can wipe a tactical squad to the man even with 2W. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972546.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer

Galas wrote:
But infiltrators can move and fight back, Drop pods are inmovile objets for your enemy to ping-pong his units.

Big I infiltrators (the unit) are almost the same price as 10 Tacs and a Drop Pod. The Drop Pod is practically throw away. You're paying the points for the Deep Strike. Getting a 6W T6 model is kind of gravy. If they drop back, you're giving up the VP anyway, at least the Pod makes them speed bump fight for a turn to get it.

I get it, I'm not saying it will always be perfect, but I think its going to be strong. I was just talking to someone else about this. Look at Lines of Battle page 301. This may be the extreme, I'm still looking at the missions over time. The far A and C objectives are more than 30 inches away. 6" move plus 3.5 advance is going to take 3 turns to get there with an average charge roll, 4 if you have to advance the whole way. Drop an empty Pod on the far A and C, and you can spend the whole game with most of your army (sans two empty drop pods) in the center 113 inches (12 inch circle) swinging a potential 10 VP differential per turn. If you take one B, you get 15 per turn for 3-4+ turns (instead of 10). If you swing one B, contest or claim the other, and have more bodies in the center you swing another 5 per turn. 30-40 VP for two drop pods is pretty cheap. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972560.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972566.page GMT Re:Drop Pod Theoryhammer DP cannot move at all, so it shall be auto destroyed right? So the enemy can be shot at. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972577.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer

SecondTime wrote:
I think its going to be good as well, just don't forget killy 12" movers.

Oh I don't - one of the reasons I mentioned the Custodes Praetor - but that gets pricey (for the Praetors too) for a 30+ inch away objective when the center is a mosh pit in deperate need of fight units. It's probably pretty easy to shoot one pod off the objective - but land two, or one and a combat squad one each one now 60+ inches apart and your AT is going to be busy and stretched.

Plus Jump troops have the Deep Strike shortcut I mentioned earlier. So far looking at this mission it looks like the key is to get an A and C as cheaply as possible and nuke those B's.

Eliminators on the far A or C would be funny but just out of range. They'd be OK on the near A and C, in range, but far enough away to be (relatively) safe.

I don't think anything can infiltrate onto the B's, not within 9" and all. But you might be able to Infiltrate a couple inches closer to get to a B in one turn. The B's are 8.5 inches away from deployment zones. I suppose you could infiltrate 9.0001 inches away and still claim it, but not be wholly inside the 12" circle necessary for the Secondary VP. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972595.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972596.page GMT Re:Drop Pod Theoryhammer

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I got a question, if my Droppod being charged and enemy got into engagement range, then in my turn can I use "Desperate Break out" stratagem? Because the DP cannot move at all, so it shall be auto destroyed right? So the enemy can be shot at.

Looks that way. In theory it even has a chance of exploding. That actually solves one of my lingering "what do I do if...." questions. I was wondering what to do if they charge the Pod, but intentionally don't kill it. I'd do that if I had Grots or even a small unit of Boys nearby. Charge, get immunity, still win the objective because you're ObSec. You can't shoot them while they're in engagement range, and so you'd have to hoof it all the way out there. Now you can just self destruct. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972601.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer faq, since drop pods normally aren't eligible for fallback .]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972604.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer

SecondTime wrote:
It looks like descent of Angels is toast, so you don't have to worry about that.

Wait for the codex. BA had an even thinner Index than the other chapters, especially in the Strats. They've got something cooking for them. I think DA and "Xenos" are first up in 2021, which leaves 3 - BA, DW, and SW. If they do two per month, you should see yours in a few days, or early next month. If we do assume 2 per month, with 3 of the four this year and 1 next year with the first "xenos" - Not that Necrons aren't Xenos and already out now that I think about it - one of the four left this year (assuming we're assuming right) might be DG too. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972605.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972605.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
It looks like descent of Angels is toast, so you don't have to worry about that.

I think with the +1 to charge baked into the chapter tactic, descent is probably overkill at this point. With smaller tables, deep striking jump troops is less important. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972611.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer

SecondTime wrote:

I think with the +1 to charge baked into the chapter tactic, descent is probably overkill at this point. With smaller tables, deep striking jump troops is less important.

Meh, I can see it coming back. 2D6 is still 7, while 3D6 is 10.5 average for a 12" declare range. It wasn't necessarily useful for the max distance as it was for getting your average distance and your declare distance a lot closer. It may be gone. It may be same name, different result too. Looking at all the Index Strats, the ones that made it into the Index were for bespoke units. Deathwing, Ravenwing, Wolf Guard, Thunderwolves, SG, DC. The vanilla unit i.e Jump Pack vs SG, Infantry vs Deathwing etc chapter specific strats may be held off for the release. That one was probably too iconic in name and function to just junk entirely. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972627.page GMT Drop Pod Theoryhammer http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/793480/10972630.page GMT