<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
So I finally decided to get back into the hobby and decided on playing Thousand Sons since they are my favorite legion from the Horus Heresy. I'm not at all familiar with them on the table top except for the obvious psyker heavy presence. My friend who is also getting into the hobby has decided on Blood Angels and we were going to start doing patrol sized games.(500pt) Problem is when I used to play (5th ed) I had a similar encounter.

He plans on fielding Mephiston, 5 intercessors, 3 bladeguards, and 5 vanguard vets jump packs w/claws and shields.

I was going to buy the start collecting with 10 tzaangors, 10 rubrics, and Ahriman.

Last time I was playing imperial guard and I was absolutely crushed underfoot and extremely demoralized at my complete lack of capability to cause casualty. I had a bunch of infantry and a number of cannons but between the saves and FnP I was only able to kill 2 BAs before it really felt helpess.

I don't imagine Tsons excel at melee either and i'm used to my troops always being inferior from my past as a horde focused player. So I was hoping somebody on here would give me some advice on combating some speedy resilient melee angels and help me set some expectations even. Not explicitly looking for a direct counter list but to help me see what tools I have to fight these elite units at such a small point game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099123.page GMT Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
For starters, its worth noting that you're bringing a few fewer points than your opponent - 450 vs 490, assuming Ahriman is on his disc and you're going for the most common loadout of 10 rubrics I've seen which is the boltguns and 1 Soulreaper Cannon. It's not that many points, but it is the difference of literally all the equipment he's placed on the vanguard veterans - their threat level would be greatly different if they were running naked.

My advice would honestly be: See if your opponent would be OK with making up the diference by running your Rubrics with 2 wounds instead of 1. Currently, most Chaos Space Marine armies are waiting on an update that GW slowly rolled out to all the loyalist marines and now Death Guard that brought them up from 1 wound to 2 wounds, which makes a big difference in their defenses.

Secondly, it's very likely that this is going to be a very defensive game for you. Your best bet is to plop your rubrics down in cover, stand the Tzaangors a few inches in front of them as bodyguards, and use Ahriman as well as a secondary bouncer to protect them.

Give Ahriman the power Prescience to buff the Rubrics' rolls to hit, and equip the rubrics' sorceror sergeant with Glamor of Tzeentch to make them -1 to hit. I would probably give Ahriman at least one mortal wound causing power, potentially Doombolt which you can use to slow down some of the blood angels like the BLadeguard, and then his third power would be something like Weaver of Fates, which he could use to give himself an extremely good invulnerable save.

You probably have a solid fighting chance to just blow his stuff off the table playing defensively if you are using Stratagems, there's a stratagem that costs a single command point that allows a unit of rubrics to shoot twice, which in this 500 point game is almost your entire army. shooting twice the rubrics would be able to down the vanvets in a single go, and if you keep them mostly alive and out of combat to fire twice a second time you've probably managed to win the game just then and there. With nobody using any stratagems, it might be tricky and you'll need to use Ahriman to block the vanvets from getting to the rubrics and probably use him to kill off the remaining 2 of them that'll be left after the rubrics fire into them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099305.page GMT Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
Get a daemon prince. Cult of magic, with the devastating sorcerer WL trait, and the +1 to cast relic. Between Astral blast, smite, and infernal gateway (strategem to cast 3rd power) you can throw out around 20 mortal wounds in one turn if he's clumped together.

The rest of your army honestly doesn't matter. Just some buffed up tzangoors to screen while the prince does his work.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099349.page GMT Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
 footfoe wrote:
This match up can be incredibly lopsided in your favor if your willing.

Get a daemon prince. Cult of magic, with the devastating sorcerer WL trait, and the +1 to cast relic. Between Astral blast, smite, and infernal gateway (strategem to cast 3rd power) you can throw out around 20 mortal wounds in one turn if he's clumped together.

The rest of your army honestly doesn't matter. Just some buffed up tzangoors to screen while the prince does his work.


I mean that's...not what he has though. and a lot of it is going to depend on how many of the various bells and whistles he's planning on trying to play with his buddy tbh. Telling him to get a model he doesn't have, use a bunch of extraneous funky gak to finagle 20 mortal wounds is pretty unhelpful.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099397.page GMT Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
I’d avoid the warpflamers, (too expensive and too short range) so you just have inferno bolt guns as options. Screen as best as you can with the Tzaangors, shoot with the rubrics, and use as many psychic powers as you can. 3 smites/turn at 500 points isn’t too bad.

If/when you decide to get more models, the demon prince would be my recommendation. He’s a great melee fighter, tough, and can be very mobile. Plus he’s an HQ and honestly Ahriman wouldn’t be my choice in a 500 point game if I had other options.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099428.page GMT Re:Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
Do all space marines get 2 wounds now? Seems like a crazy big shift in power compared to chaos if they haven't caught up...

i glanced over some of the features i could read on battlescribe (i plan on getting the codex before models) and i liked the idea of splitting the rubrics by half to get another caster out of it but the fire twice strategem sounds like it could really make the difference in the game. If i were to split my rubrics would i want to space them out across the board or try to screen them with the tzaangors together anyway? It also seems that with rubric bolters being -2 ap would force them to make invulnerable saves correct? If i set this up with the Death Hex cast and the Strategem that would be 2 volleys in one turn that he would have to make at 5+? I actually have a Fluxmaster model i recieved as a gift and i believe it would be okay to proxy him as a tzaangor shaman if this helps things out.

Sorry if it seems kinda silly asking for advice in such a small game i'm just getting hit with that PTSD and very intimidated that he will make it into melee turn one if the board is so small. (60x30)
And I was told that thousand sons can be kinda difficult to play at first. I pretty much feel like a newbie coming back after so long i really appreciate the help.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11099879.page GMT Re:Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
DaRooster wrote:
Thank You Guys so much for helping me out!

Do all space marines get 2 wounds now? Seems like a crazy big shift in power compared to chaos if they haven't caught up...

i glanced over some of the features i could read on battlescribe (i plan on getting the codex before models) and i liked the idea of splitting the rubrics by half to get another caster out of it but the fire twice strategem sounds like it could really make the difference in the game. If i were to split my rubrics would i want to space them out across the board or try to screen them with the tzaangors together anyway? It also seems that with rubric bolters being -2 ap would force them to make invulnerable saves correct? If i set this up with the Death Hex cast and the Strategem that would be 2 volleys in one turn that he would have to make at 5+? I actually have a Fluxmaster model i recieved as a gift and i believe it would be okay to proxy him as a tzaangor shaman if this helps things out.

Sorry if it seems kinda silly asking for advice in such a small game i'm just getting hit with that PTSD and very intimidated that he will make it into melee turn one if the board is so small. (60x30)
And I was told that thousand sons can be kinda difficult to play at first. I pretty much feel like a newbie coming back after so long i really appreciate the help.


Yeah, the main problem is theres a lot of extraneous features like Doctrines, sub-faction traits, stratagems, etc etc that people often don't use as they're complicated in their first few games that really change the calculus of who has what advantage.

Marines got W2 in the new codex and their stuff went up in cost (fairly modestly tbh, a tactical marine is like 18pts vs a tactical marine at I think 14pts right now) to 'account for it' but the W1 chaos space marine and thousand sons codexes are still among the worst performing armies at the game at the present moment. Not the bottom, that joy belongs to my darling genestealer cults, but close.

If you're using stratagems and command points, your best bet is to go for a big unit of rubrics so you can maximise the power of stratagems on them, and if you're not, your best bet is to run 5-man squads of rubrics to maximise the amount of psychic powers you have on the table.

Death Hex is a possibility but I think Prescience is a better bet to buff up your rubrics. Death Hex affects one enemy unit, and Presceience affects anything your rubrics shoot - and if you're double firing them to make them basically all your firepower, you'll want them to be able to target multiple units.

The Tzaangor Shaman is more expensive than the points gap betwen your armies (85pts) you could probably use him if you play a game and find it's one sided in your opponent's favor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, the general shape of the game should be: Deploy your rubrics in a corner of the board with the tzaangors as a screen in front of them, not so close that your opponent will be able to pile in and boop them with his 3" post-fight movement, and put Ahriman somewhere nearby the tzaangors so he can assist them if/when they get charged.

Ahriman can basically kill 1 of the Bladeguard or Vanvets with his black staff in combat, his main job is providing the rerolls to the rubrics shooting, dunking on Mephiston's power casts with his +1 to deny, and throwing out mortal wounds and buffs to help your army out. I would personally take Doombolt, Glamor of Tzeentch and Prescience on Ahriman, and Tzeentch's Firestorm on the rubric mini-sorceror, to spread out your mortal wound threat. You could take Glamor on the rubric sorc and put Firestorm on Ahriman, which would technically allow ahriman if he wanted to to throw out triple mortal wounding powers, which could be good in an emergency situation like if your opponent somehow manages a miracle hail mary charge turn 1 with the Vanvets that gets him into melee and you just HAVE to finish them off with Ahriman in the psychic phase before they shoot.

Throwing in a tzaangor shaman with Weaver of Fates or an extra full-power smite would definitely give you an extra edge, and these games should be quick, so if your opponent is uninterested in letting you have the extra wound on your rubrics and calling that 'even' for his 40-point advantage, maybe he'd be OK with letting yu have the extra shaman if the first game feels one-sided.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tsons are definitely a complicated army to play, owing to their reliance on the psychic phase. all your HQs have huge variations in what they can bring to the table depending on their power choice, and their main core troop choice is now pretty out-of-date with the fact that they're still w1 and we do not know when a new 'dex is going to be coming. Adeptus Mechanicus is out this month, followed by we think sisters of battle? Also we've seen previews that could be orks, a preview that is definitely GSC, and a preview that could be guard, so sadly though CSM armies are among those that most need an update we dont know when we'll see one.

Thousand Sons feel a lot better than basic CSM in the matchup vs regular marines because our warp boltguns have always been basically designed to shred space marines, and nobody but nobody can hurl more mortal wounds to embarrass a unit of super invulnerable save'd up storm shield marines.in a full scale game I'll take an army composition that's basically 'your start collecting box but blown up like a balloon' with a unit of 30 tzaangors screening for a full 20 rubrics, and that just blows away space marines usually.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11100121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11100121.page GMT Re:Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
Talk about Deja Vu

Home boy pulled a fast one on me and he bought a sanguinary priest and was escorting him with Sanguinary Guard

He went halfway across the board going first and i decided to meet him half way. i used the dark crystal to reposition my rubrics within rapid fire range, prescience, exalted sorcerer (proxyd with Ahriman) in range for reroll ones, and used the Fusillade strategem with out of 32 bolter shots resulting into only 5 wounds, charged with the tzaangors (glamour active) and came up empty for wounds and were completely wiped out. My doombolt fizzled, and my firestorm only resulted in one mortal wound which the priest healed at the start of the next turn and he took an upgrade that garaunteed the return of a model. He moved in real close, inferno pistol killed my shaman outright with a 4 wound shot, then he charged the rubrics and killed them twice over in wounds.

So the game happened just like old times, i kill 3 then i get wiped

He was telling me he really favors elite highly durable units, i guess my proper response is showering him in mortal wounds if most of his army is going to be 2+ saves?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11100683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11100683.page GMT Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
At higher points you can afford more sacrificial screens to throw in front of them as well has having a bigger board to give you some more time to deal with them.

I'm not familiar enough with TS to suggest what units to take, but high volume -2AP or high quality -3/4AP will waste a Sanguinary Guard unit as will mortal wounds if you can do them from outside their charge range.

Generally speaking, moving your high value units within the threat range of Sanguinary Guard is doing your opponent a favor. That unit specializes in taking down whatever you value most.

Moving up in points will also allow you to play to the primary mission rather than just going straight for the throat. Your friend will find that he can't just focus all his attention on tabling you with elite units to win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11118542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11118542.page GMT Re:Starting TSons, advice vs BA patrol game
Welcome to the brotherhood of sorcerers! I have been playing thousand sons/Tzeentch CSM a long time, and one thing you need to be prepared for is the "swingyness" of the army due to how our thing is psychic powers. I have had games where I have crushed opponents putting out unreasonable amounts of MW and buffs, and I have had others where I perils several times a phase and cast nothing. So be ready for that. Also, sometimes you are going to roll hot with all the invuls we get, and sometimes not. Anyway......

500 point games are tough, as others have said, due to the fact that a unit like Sag Guard can really swing the game one way or the other, or a few good MW casts make a huge difference. My thoughts on what you have is I would leave the Rubics at 10 so you can use the soul reaper cannon and be efficient with the double shot strat. In the future I would not move toward him, I would take some long range shots, leave the Tgors as screen, and let him charge the Tgors, then counter when the get blasted. I would also use Arhiman as Arhiman, because the extra power and +1 is a really big advantage over the exalted champ. I prefer Weaver over Glamor for protecting the Tgors as well as like I said there is nothing more satisfying than rolling a bunch of 4+ invuls and a screen unit. So I would take Weaver, Doombolt, Precience, on Ahriman, and maybe Glamor or Firestorm on the Aspiring Sorcerer. Also, if you can borrow a copy of the Cult rules (I would not buy as they just previewed a teaser for Thousand Sons/Grey Knights so the Codex is probably sooner rather than later) You can use either duplicity on the Aspiring Sorcerer (allowing you to basically dark mater crystal them every turn) or Magic for a better version of smite with spill over damage, or Time allowing you to bring a Rubric or d3 back to life.

As for expanding your collection, I would start with a squad of Scarab Occult Terminators. They are pretty good even without the 3 wounds, and so far terminators have gotten better in all of the Marine/DG books so they are probably a safe bet to remain solid with the new Dex. Daemon prince is a must, and will probably stay good based on the DG Dex. The shaman is good, and adds a cast and buffs the Tgors. I also like hellbrutes for AT, 2x Laser Cannon and 1 x missile, and again they should gain the -1 damage in the new Dex so will probably remain solid. Otherwise more rubrics and Tgors, and at least another HQ. You really want to have 3 HQ casters or 2 and a shaman for a 1000 point game. Once you get the 1000 point games I think you will find it more enjoyable as the 500 point games don't have a lot of strategy or maneuver due to the small board and limited number of units.

Hope this was helpful. May Tzeentch bless you with all 6s.






]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11124043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/797578/11124043.page GMT