<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive GTs.

Here is a refresher of Every Major and GT Since September started where Orkz finished in the top 4.

Da Summer WAAAGH!: Orkz Finished 3rd Zero Boyz used.

Harbor Heresy: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Alliance Open: Orkz Finished 3rd. 10 Boyz used (1 squad of 10)

Carnage: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Iron Halo: Orkz Finished 2nd and 3rds. Zero Boyz used in both lists.

All told you have 5 events and 6 placings for Orkz, So 6 total lists and a grand total of 1 unit of 10 boyz. Also, Boyz can be taken in Mobz of up to 30 and yet there was only a single mob of 10. Likewise there weren't any Beast Snagga's either. There were however at least 2 units of MSU Grots used as 50pt Troop tax.

As a reminder. Boyz are now 9ppm. T5 with a 6+ save with a 5' movement. Based on how slow they are, its a requirement that they take some kind of transport to get across the board. Either an actual transport, or a Stratagem/psychic ability that puts them in charge range. The problem being that they changed "Ere We Go" from re-rolling 1 or both dice, to requiring you to re-roll both dice. That teamed with the loss of +1 to charge for Evil Sunz means that boyz are actually below a 50% chance to successfully charge from deepstrike/Da Jump. Furthermore, Weirdboyz were nerfed to lower their chance of successfully casting Da Jump. And finally, the KFF was nerfed to be a 6+ invuln instead of a 5+ and can only be buffed for a single turn before blowing up, and at a hefty price of 30pts instead of its old price of 20.

With all those factors and the tournament placings, I'm going to go ahead and say that Boyz are not competitive in the current tournament scene. If you disagree let me know.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222562.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222562.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222570.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
...why did this need a second thread? Why am I commenting?


Well, if you read the other poll, I said that I would re-run the poll after people had time to play against the new Ork Boyz. The first poll was speculation based upon being able to see the new rules/stats. This poll is based on actual game play and tournament results. Its interesting to see if people predictions came true and if with new information, anyone will change their mind. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222584.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222604.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive They are overshadowed by the very good specialist ladz in everything they do, for a very reasonable extra cost.

They are troops though, and this usually gives you a defined role. Too bad that they are slow, and troops want to steal objectives.

Green tide is alive and well, and I'm fully convinced that it is the really competitive ork army. Buggies are terribly hindered by map composition to really be a tournament build. The only thing keeping that build together are the undercosted dakkajets.
But this green tide will be kommandos, stormboyz, burna boyz and so on. Which is perfectly fine and nice to see on the field. Probably better than just looking at 120 identical models.
The ork dex doesn't have the targeted buffs necessary to capitalize on the higher unit size of boyz, because if not, that would be their correct role.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222639.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive ).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222643.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
In practice Squigbuggies, Dakkajets, Kommandos and Storm Boyz don't really care.

Getting say 4-5 Scrapjets around the table really isn't all that inconvenient. You don't get this massive traffic jam because everything else can sort of ignore the board (don't take this literally but hopefully you know what I mean).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222652.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222723.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rukks also do well, because they don't have to move, really. They're the ones that need a bump ( Justice is served to Xenosmancer! ).


I think people are drastically over-estimating Rukkas. For starters, its Main gun is 2D6 shots hitting on 4s, that averages 3.5 HITS a turn, the secondary gun is D6 shots, hitting on 5s AND its 18' range. It is completely feasible for the Main gun to not have to be moved often to get a good target, the secondary gun? not so much.

The Main gun btw is 3.5 hits at S5 -2AP and 2dmg. Against a Marine profile it does 2.3 wounds and against that 5+ save its 1.55 unsaved wounds for 3 dmg, or in 2 turns it will average 3 dead Marines. Split the difference, its killing 30pts of Intercessors a turn. That is bare minimum for what I would consider effective shooting. The secondary gun, assuming its within range, averages 1.16 hits a turn, 0.7 wounds and 0.5 unsaved wounds for 1 dead Marine on average every 2 turns. The only really good thing about the Rukka is its ignore LOS rule, but with its relatively short ranged guns it doesn't have the same benefits as other indirect fire weapons, it has to close the distance at least a bit.

Spoletta wrote:
Boyz problem is that they don't have a role in the orks army.
They are overshadowed by the very good specialist ladz in everything they do, for a very reasonable extra cost.

They are troops though, and this usually gives you a defined role. Too bad that they are slow, and troops want to steal objectives.

Green tide is alive and well, and I'm fully convinced that it is the really competitive ork army. Buggies are terribly hindered by map composition to really be a tournament build. The only thing keeping that build together are the undercosted dakkajets.
But this green tide will be kommandos, stormboyz, burna boyz and so on. Which is perfectly fine and nice to see on the field. Probably better than just looking at 120 identical models.
The ork dex doesn't have the targeted buffs necessary to capitalize on the higher unit size of boyz, because if not, that would be their correct role.


I believe that I am the biggest proponent of "Green Tide" right now in that my competitive list features 90 Infantry. Kommandos, Trukk Boyz and Stormboyz. I honestly don't feel like 90 infantry is "green tide" but that is just my opinion. The main thing is that the question was "Are Boyz competitive" not whether or not infantry is feasible or if Trukk Boyz are competitive. I think based upon tournament results that we have been seeing, the age of Orkz spamming troops is over at least for the near future.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, I don't think this is a real representation of the meta.


What would be a better representation then? The point as stated already is whether or not they are competitive in a tournament environment. GTs or majors. How else would you measure their effectiveness besides looking at those exact types of tournaments and see what top placing ork lists are using?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, there are currently 11 players who have said that Ork boyz are competitive, and none have posted as to why they have that belief. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222778.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
SemperMortis wrote:
I think people are drastically over-estimating Rukkas. For starters, its Main gun is 2D6 shots hitting on 4s, that averages 3.5 HITS a turn, the secondary gun is D6 shots, hitting on 5s AND its 18' range. It is completely feasible for the Main gun to not have to be moved often to get a good target, the secondary gun? not so much.

The Main gun btw is 3.5 hits at S5 -2AP and 2dmg. Against a Marine profile it does 2.3 wounds and against that 5+ save its 1.55 unsaved wounds for 3 dmg, or in 2 turns it will average 3 dead Marines. Split the difference, its killing 30pts of Intercessors a turn. That is bare minimum for what I would consider effective shooting. The secondary gun, assuming its within range, averages 1.16 hits a turn, 0.7 wounds and 0.5 unsaved wounds for 1 dead Marine on average every 2 turns. The only really good thing about the Rukka is its ignore LOS rule, but with its relatively short ranged guns it doesn't have the same benefits as other indirect fire weapons, it has to close the distance at least a bit.


Even just a 33% return would be good given you can do it from behind a polystyrene brick.

But you have Speedwaaagh for a turn to make them AP3 - which is now offering a 43% return on intercessors.
You have M10 - and a free advance in the Speedwaaagh turn. So I'm not convinced 18" really is all that short on the secondary gun. Further pushing up that already respectable return.
The mine won't come up very often but its another situational perk if your opponent does have any aggressive vehicles (I mean its 16" effective range - they don't have to be that aggressive.)

In short you have a unit which is hard for your opponent to remove early and has efficient offensive and defensive stats. Perhaps most importantly, due to being M10" with a range 36" ignoring LOS main gun, it can almost always just fire at whatever is most important to deal with every turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222811.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
Tyel wrote:


Even just a 33% return would be good given you can do it from behind a polystyrene brick.

But you have Speedwaaagh for a turn to make them AP3 - which is now offering a 43% return on intercessors.
You have M10 - and a free advance in the Speedwaaagh turn. So I'm not convinced 18" really is all that short on the secondary gun. Further pushing up that already respectable return.
The mine won't come up very often but its another situational perk if your opponent does have any aggressive vehicles (I mean its 16" effective range - they don't have to be that aggressive.)

In short you have a unit which is hard for your opponent to remove early and has efficient offensive and defensive stats. Perhaps most importantly, due to being M10" with a range 36" ignoring LOS main gun, it can almost always just fire at whatever is most important to deal with every turn.


IG have a host of IDF weapons that are the equal of the Rukka. Heavy Quad Launcher, Wyvern, Medusa Carriage, Basilisk, Earth shaker, Manticore, Deathstrike, Heavy Mortar Battery etc. Now they aren't exactly the same and some are less efficient and some are more efficient. But as an example, you can plop a Basilisk literally anywhere on the table now and it can hit ANYWHERE on the table. Its weapon is 240' range, Heavy D6 (roll 2 dice, take the highest) S9 -3 D3 dmg. it has easy access to a host of buffs and hits on 4s. The Quad launcher is the same price and averages 14 shots at S5 no AP 1dmg. Hell, for 10pts more an IG player can take 2 Heavy weapon squads and put out 6D6 shots at S4 no AP 1 dmg that are indirect fire and range 48. So if the value of the rukka is in its Indirect fire than these other units are almost as powerful. Difference being that rukka is required to be within 18' range of its target to get its 2nd gun to even fire, these can sit back at 48+ and fire all day hiding in a ruins.

The Rukka IS GOOD! but its not OP by any stretch. If you could take the Nitro upgrade on a squadron...maybe. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222846.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive IG artillery much, either. IG mortars and manticores were some of the more abused models in 8th. I don't think Rukks are broken, but if there is no army that forces them out of lists then they will need a small bump.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222855.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
Can boyz be competitive? Probably, though it would be meta reliant. Can your opponent chop through 9 or 12 10 ork units of infantry? (that's what i'm assuming you'd want to take, there's not a huge amount of reason to take 30 model units atm.)

Unless you throw some distraction units at the enemy like bikers, commandos and trukkboyz your opponent is going to start chipping away at your army before you can start getting the axe into them. But the more distraction you have the less boyz you have, and once you go past a certain point you may as well just take a faster alpha strike list.

Oddly I think some other factions can do hordes better than us as an example i'll be facing off against a silver tide list this weekend. They have good shooting, durability, recusion of units/models and a handful of hammer/anvil units to do heavy lifting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222858.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fortunately kustom jobs can only go on single model units, but you won't find me supporting IG artillery much, either. IG mortars and manticores were some of the more abused models in 8th. I don't think Rukks are broken, but if there is no army that forces them out of lists then they will need a small bump.


"If there is no army that forces them out of lists" ....So because a unit is taken in competitive lists it needs to be nerfed? That is an argument based on a faulty premise to say the least.

Rukkas are countered the exact same way as the aforementioned IG Artillery. The only difference is that its significantly easier to counter due to the shorter range. All those IG units have 48+ inch range. hell, the basilisk is 240 the Rukka is 18 on 1/3rd of its main guns and only 36 on its #1 gun. To put that in better perspective, they are in EASY melta range turn 1 if the opponent wants to get their 18' gun in range. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222875.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222875.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
SemperMortis wrote:
"If there is no army that forces them out of lists" ....So because a unit is taken in competitive lists it needs to be nerfed?


No, I mean if nothing causes Orks to not choose Rukks ( or buggies in general ) then they affect the internal balance of the book and may create a skew for some opponents ( though less likely ).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222890.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222933.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive CP to take neither, you know Boyz are not competitive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222938.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222938.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
Spoletta wrote:
When I said that they are heavily affected by terrain, I didn't mean only traffic jams. I meant that if there is a bit of dense terrain around, you are trying to alpha strike with a list that hits on 6s.


I have the feeling that those particular Ork lists want to go second.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11222940.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
Spoletta wrote:
When I said that they are heavily affected by terrain, I didn't mean only traffic jams. I meant that if there is a bit of dense terrain around, you are trying to alpha strike with a list that hits on 6s.


Doesn't effect them enough to not be the top ork choice for tournaments though...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223001.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive IG indirect fire are short changing the Orks as a faction. 4+ to hit for Orks is major, it’s random shots, but there’s typically 2-4 of them to help spread that out. Doing something about them means being in reach of the rest of the Orks, with IG there aren’t a lot of counter attacks I’m scared of, most are just big blobs for tying things up nowadays. 36” range with vehicle movement leaves them the whole table at their will.

It’s another reason why Boyz just won’t compete vs trukkers, snaggas or Kommandos, having MSU allows them to go HAM on actions, a lot like Drukhari can. We can all just be glad their codex secondaries didn’t help that play style out much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223241.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
Hello Everyone, well the codex has been out for a fair bit of time so its time to re-assess the question asked awhile back, Are Boyz competitive? Again, want to really emphasize this point, its not whether or not you like them, if they look good or if in your friendly games they are good, this is strictly in a competitive environment like Tournaments/GTs.

Here is a refresher of Every Major and GT Since September started where Orkz finished in the top 4.

Da Summer WAAAGH!: Orkz Finished 3rd Zero Boyz used.

Harbor Heresy: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Alliance Open: Orkz Finished 3rd. 10 Boyz used (1 squad of 10)

Carnage: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Iron Halo: Orkz Finished 2nd and 3rds. Zero Boyz used in both lists.

All told you have 5 events and 6 placings for Orkz, So 6 total lists and a grand total of 1 unit of 10 boyz. Also, Boyz can be taken in Mobz of up to 30 and yet there was only a single mob of 10. Likewise there weren't any Beast Snagga's either. There were however at least 2 units of MSU Grots used as 50pt Troop tax.

As a reminder. Boyz are now 9ppm. T5 with a 6+ save with a 5' movement. Based on how slow they are, its a requirement that they take some kind of transport to get across the board. Either an actual transport, or a Stratagem/psychic ability that puts them in charge range. The problem being that they changed "Ere We Go" from re-rolling 1 or both dice, to requiring you to re-roll both dice. That teamed with the loss of +1 to charge for Evil Sunz means that boyz are actually below a 50% chance to successfully charge from deepstrike/Da Jump. Furthermore, Weirdboyz were nerfed to lower their chance of successfully casting Da Jump. And finally, the KFF was nerfed to be a 6+ invuln instead of a 5+ and can only be buffed for a single turn before blowing up, and at a hefty price of 30pts instead of its old price of 20.

With all those factors and the tournament placings, I'm going to go ahead and say that Boyz are not competitive in the current tournament scene. If you disagree let me know.
IMO, Orkz never made it to 1st place because they didn't take a ton of Boyz so far taking zero to 1 squad of Boyz gets you 2nd place at best!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223375.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ptoadv/calling_all_warbosses_an_analysis_of_orks_at_lgt/

TL;DR: There is an average of 1.32 units of boyz in competitive ork armies, allmost all of them slugga/choppa and almost all of them are small units. About half of them seem to be trukkboyz.
Both storm boyz and kommandoz each outnumber the total amount of boyz played.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223595.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive KFFs were used in those lists, and how little koptas (I mean everyone has the AOBR ones!).

Anything else is exactly as expected. Maybe warboss on bikes are a bit low on the model count but they're FW models or available only through conversions.

Other good units that have low model count are yet to be released as proper official kits, when they do they're going to show up more frequently. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223609.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
As LGT has banned the beastboss on squigosaur, otherwise the premier caller of waaagh (doesn’t appear to have stopped 3 people from trying to be kunnin and sneak one in though)




Is that "kunnin, but brutal" or "brutal, but kunnin"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
It's shocking how many big meks with KFFs were used in those lists


Definitely needed. Some armies alpha strike the pants off buggies.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223766.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive WTF?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223773.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wait... they banned a legal unit? WTF?


The model isn't officially available in time so to be fair to those without conversion skills or something, I guess.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223794.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223794.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223798.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223820.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223840.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
Rihgu wrote:
Read their tournament pack. They blanket banned unreleased models as you can't build a proxy with the same dimensions as a model with unknown/speculative dimensions.
It's a little anal retentive or perhaps paranoid and anti-creativity*, but I'm relieved to see it's "unreleased models" and not "that one model specifically".



*Something truly hard to imagine from people who like symmetrical terrain set-ups. (/s)


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11223858.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 Daedalus81 wrote:


Definitely needed. Some armies alpha strike the pants off buggies.



KFF dude is nice, I also use it a lot. But the bare bone big mek is almost useless once the KFF has overcharged, it becomes just a slugga/choppa nob then. For a handful of more points you can field a big mek in megarmour with KFF which is vastly superior. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11224277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11224277.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
I think Boyz are dead as well and even then my Competitive list involves 3 units of boyz...in 3 detachment....as trukk boyz Without that gimmick i would take Grot taxes or CP taxes. They just provide nothing to my list that can't be done better and cheaper by a unit of Kommandos or Stormboyz. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11225112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11225112.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive CP taxes not to take troops beyond trukk boyz and even then its the extra movement for a troop you want more so than the boyz profile. Overall fun codex so far, but our troop choices are now a contender codex for the worst troops in the game (not saying they would take the crown for sure but they probably make the podium). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11226614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11226614.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227124.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 alextroy wrote:
My question: Are Boyz crap or just crap by way of being too expensive?

They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?


Probably not, as their main issue is that they fail to perform their primary role of being good at shooting/fighting other troops. However, you are always in danger of entering the "too many wounds per points" territory, at which point green tide will return to reign supreme despite boyz still not being great. The only difference to 8th would be people spamming 12 units of 10 instead of 4 units of 30 because morale.

Trukkboyz might have a chance of being good if the trukk wouldn't cost the same as a buggy gunboat. But that's not an ork problem, most other armies aren't running their transports either for the same reason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227132.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 alextroy wrote:
My question: Are Boyz crap or just crap by way of being too expensive?

They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?


honestly its the moral issue moreso than the point issue. any good player will know is a unit of 30 boys is brought just kill 6 turn 1. morale 5/6 of the time fails, a 7th ork runs and 23 rolls are made resulting in ~4 more orks running, pretty good odds dropping 6 orks nets that plus 4 dead orks. next turn you burn down 6 more orks or enough to pull them below 15, now they fail morale 5/6 of the time and after 1 runs the rest run on a 1 or 2 as they are below half strength. ideally they only had to kill 6 more. unit is at 14, morale roll fails 5/6 of the time 1 runs. 13 models running on a 1 or 2 so 4 more run. again killed 6 shooting and 10 orks are gone. unit after suffering 12 shooting casualties of 30 is now a 10 man unit most of the time. which can be mopped up turn 3 as a good player will be moving out of range and limiting charge options to things that will shrug off 10 ork boyz.

points would be nice but all that means is you still taking 40% unit casualties to morale for 30 man squads]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227149.page GMT Re:(NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 alextroy wrote:
My question: Are Boyz crap or just crap by way of being too expensive?

They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?


No. Its a combination of what Jidmah and goofy said. A Standard boy is 5' movement. He is incredibly slow. Dmg wise, there isn't a scenario where boyz put out any kind of meaningful dmg at range. If you magically got 30 shoota boyz into 9' range of a target they only get 30 hits at S4 no AP. That works out to 5dmg to a Marine. So 270pts killing 50ish points in dakka range mind you. At normal range its even more pathetic at 3.3dmg. In CC, 10 boyz get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg to a Marine. Significantly better, but again, 5' movement. So at range they are useless, in CC they are ok. But because they are slow they need some kind of gimmick to get them into CC. Trukk boyz works but then you are adding in 70pts to their price tag. So its not 90pts killing 40-50pts in CC, now its 160pts killing 40-50. Still not terrible but the loss of Kulture and the limit of 1 per detachment is a big downside.


On what Goofy said, morale is an absolute deal breaker for large mobz, which is why what Jidmah says is true. If Boyz went back to 7ppm, you wouldn't see 3-4 big blobs of 30. you would see 9-12 small groups of 10. Taking 120 Boyz in 12 mobz at T5 for 840pts would be annoying to say the least and as mentioned, it would be green tide all over again, albeit it in smaller mobz just significantly more of them. Solutions for Boyz are many and varied. You could make htem cheaper and just say, good enough. You could make them more durable with a 5+ save (which at 9ppm, they should have), you could make them faster either in actual movement or by their nerfed methods (Transports, da jump) but you would also need to make their charges more reliable in order for them to be fielded that way.

Keep in mind, boyz weren't scary in 8th either, it was when they were buffed by Ghaz to give them a ton of extra attacks that they were "competitive" and even then it was more of a "hold the objectives" list rather than a kill everything list. And that was when Weirdboyz had an easy time Da Jumping and buffing warpath.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227224.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
In 8th it was possible to give boyz a plethora of buffs, both offensive and defensive, which made them good and even quite competitive. All those tricks are gone except for trukk boyz, that's why competitive lists using boyz will now have 10-30 of them instead of 90+. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227657.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive DS patrols, and they will provide more ob sec bodies to go along with my 3*5 kommandos and 2*5 stormboyz.

Freebooter planes and buggies will be dealing damage.

Where I am I getting at you might ask ? Well my point is that boyz to me have become "filler" units. Trukk boyz are too expensive for me because of the 70 point trukk. Grots are terrible. So regular boyz to send on an objective to die.
Hopefully they take out some stuff (I will be fielding a mega armour warboss with big gob for a 9 inch +1 to hit in CC, which could help boyz hit something and perhaps wound it).

If only we could take min 5 units of boyz... Min 10 is such a bad deal.

Who knows, perhaps boyz (or grots ?) will get something out of a supplement at some time this year or next year. They sure need the help. But so does a lot of our infantry really:
- meganobz are really bad (IMHO)
- TankB too
- Lootas also, bad
- nobz... Very bad I say !
- stormboyz unless deathskulls, bad too, soo baad !
- Flash gitz... So overpriced. Thus, bad again, BAD !

I think everyone gets the picture by now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11227694.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
I will mention that I was able to win a recent local tournament while using 3x10 boyz utilized as Trukk Boyz in 3 separate detachments. All naked, all unsupported, and none of them would have been included if Trukk Boyz weren't a specialist mob. Take that for what it is worth. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11231550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11231550.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the results are officially in at this point, about 2/3rds of people think Boyz are no longer competitive while 1/3rd thinks they are still competitive. Keep in mind, the point of the poll was to find out if they were competitive in the tournament scene, not in friendly games.

I will mention that I was able to win a recent local tournament while using 3x10 boyz utilized as Trukk Boyz in 3 separate detachments. All naked, all unsupported, and none of them would have been included if Trukk Boyz weren't a specialist mob. Take that for what it is worth.

You might have taken it a little too far - 2 units of truck boys is enough and does really well for me.

"Competitive" is such a joke atm. The game has always been about spam but I really didnt expect GW to double down on it. Buggies at 90 points is a travesty. When A buggie is 90 points what purpose does a slow unit like boys have at 90 points? Not only are the boys slower...they are less durable and do less damage too plus they have no tricks in the bag (other than trucker boys.) The issue is not the boys though a drop to 8 points probably wouldn't change much but something like....raising the points of wyches/admech vanguard would do even better for them. I think we all know that isn't going to happen though.

Pretty much...troop level infantry can never have a place in this game when you can get the same unit +1 with no downside (stormboys/Commandos) and even those units are only taken to take up space and sneak only objectives. Same is true across all armies. Players will spam the best units in the codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11231768.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11231768.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11231845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11231845.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the results are officially in at this point, about 2/3rds of people think Boyz are no longer competitive while 1/3rd thinks they are still competitive. Keep in mind, the point of the poll was to find out if they were competitive in the tournament scene, not in friendly games.

I will mention that I was able to win a recent local tournament while using 3x10 boyz utilized as Trukk Boyz in 3 separate detachments. All naked, all unsupported, and none of them would have been included if Trukk Boyz weren't a specialist mob. Take that for what it is worth.

You might have taken it a little too far - 2 units of truck boys is enough and does really well for me.

"Competitive" is such a joke atm. The game has always been about spam but I really didnt expect GW to double down on it. Buggies at 90 points is a travesty. When A buggie is 90 points what purpose does a slow unit like boys have at 90 points? Not only are the boys slower...they are less durable and do less damage too plus they have no tricks in the bag (other than trucker boys.) The issue is not the boys though a drop to 8 points probably wouldn't change much but something like....raising the points of wyches/admech vanguard would do even better for them. I think we all know that isn't going to happen though.

Pretty much...troop level infantry can never have a place in this game when you can get the same unit +1 with no downside (stormboys/Commandos) and even those units are only taken to take up space and sneak only objectives. Same is true across all armies. Players will spam the best units in the codex.


I run 3 Trukk Boyz because I also put a warboss in each one. Its honestly a bit surprising how often people forget that after the boyz hop out, the next turn the warboss does and they haven't planned for having to deal with our melee beat stick which is the Warboss The only upside of Trukkboyz over stormboyz is the durability. Before you can even start reducing the combat efficiency of the Boyz you have to kill 10 T6 4+ wounds, which isn't hard per say, but its a lot easier than say killing 10 T5 6+ wounds whose only defense is hiding in LOS blocking cover and hoping its close enough to the enemy to make a turn 1 charge. And on top of that, as you reduce those T5 wounds you are also reducing the effectiveness of the stormboyz. Honestly, Trukk boyz and Stormboyz are fairly close to internally balanced. Trukk Boyz cost more but are significantly more durable, Stormboyz are cheaper and more dangerous in CC but lack durability.

But I do agree, Boyz compared to buggies is just stupid. 9 boyz and a nob are 90pts, they are T5, 6+ save so 10 T5 6+ save wounds, they lack any kind of ranged fire power that is worth using. A Scrapjet is 90pts, it has T6, 9 wounds and a 4+ save. It has 4 Big shootas, the equivalent of 3.3 Rokkit launchas and in CC its about the same as a Nob with a PK. (especially when you factor in the charge mortal wounds). Also, its literally twice as fast as a boy with movement 10. The only common scenario where a Scrapjet isn't as good as a Boyz unit is when targeted with heavy weapons. Anything S8 with multi-dmg is significantly more dangerous to Buggies than it is to the boyz unit.

I think the boyz might have had a place in the game if GW hadn't hamstrung them as basically the only max sized unit that regularly cares about Morale. And if they hadn't nerfed most of there delivery methods (removal of +1 to charge evil sunz, Da jump less reliable, Green tide gone etc). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232133.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232138.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.


Buffed to T3! But also, lose their armor save. Don't worry though, Morale guts them like a fish more than any unit in the game atm. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232159.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232159.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.


Guardsmen & Cultists being better than Grots means nothing as they aren't choices when you're running an Ork army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232599.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232634.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 Jidmah wrote:
I think his point is that gretchin are actually worthless, while comparable units in other armies have value beyond existing on the battlefield.


I think that is a valid description of the points being made. And everyone forgot to mention that Grots are also not objective secured and the only way to make them obsec is to take a once per detachment specialist mob which also has a negative modifier, IE that everyone nearby has -1 to hit.

GW Went out of their way to nerf ork troops this time around to the point where the only competitive use I can see is the Trukk Boyz and even then only as a better version of a troop tax. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11232664.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
ccs wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.


Guardsmen & Cultists being better than Grots means nothing as they aren't choices when you're running an Ork army.


of coarse it means something, it is called game balance. If GW gives 1 army a unit with better stats in every way then another unit in a different codex and then makes them the same points cost that is a game balance issue. They used to (rightfully so) be able to point at gretchin as the worst unit in the game, but then at 3 points per model who cares they just sit back and handled holding objectives. now they are worse than other units and... cannot even hold objectives like other troops by removing objective secured. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11233356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11233356.page GMT (NEW) ARE Boyz Competitive
 G00fySmiley wrote:

of coarse it means something, it is called game balance. If GW gives 1 army a unit with better stats in every way then another unit in a different codex and then makes them the same points cost that is a game balance issue. They used to (rightfully so) be able to point at gretchin as the worst unit in the game, but then at 3 points per model who cares they just sit back and handled holding objectives. now they are worse than other units and... cannot even hold objectives like other troops by removing objective secured.


And removing their armor save, and giving them 0 uses besides sitting on an objective. A guardsmen unit can attach a heavy weapon if it really wants to just sit back and hold something, a Grot unit can't even do that. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11233733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/801015/11233733.page GMT