<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
We're sticking with Combat Patrol size boards an games (no mini boards), as that's a level of play we can afford to slowly grow for our entire group.

But, the **HUGE** layers of rules is just too much. So, Ive been able to get all the 8th indexes, except the IA ones, which is suuuuuuper frustrating.

If there's Legend rules, the obviously take precedence.
We've been collecting the datacards, and got Open War, which is a great way to customize the battle to fit the narrative being told, using it more as a toolbox than a pattern for play.

I had the assumption that the datacards would also have one of each unit, ala the starter set stripped down sheets. Would the datacards be useful to add to indexes/Legends?

Looking for guidance, key things:
- simple gameplay is key
- still no CPs or strats (might be convinced, but it'd be THE change)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11401995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11401995.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? 40k. Those books were an absolute mess. Yeah, they were simple, but they also had a bunch of poorly written and poorly balanced rules because GW had no idea what they were doing with the game at that point. They were a necessary evil at the time but it's not an era that is worth revisiting. If cost is an issue a printed copy of the rules from wahapedia will be way more useful than any of the index stuff.

 Blndmage wrote:
Would the datacards be useful to add to indexes/Legends?


Definitely not. I genuinely have no idea why anyone ever buys those cards, most of them are out of date within a few weeks at best and if you're paying money for rules you might as well just buy the codex instead.

If there's Legend rules, the obviously take precedence.


I would advise against this. Legends rules are badly written (both in terms of balance and functionality) but they still benefit from a lot of power creep since the indices were written. You don't want to create perverse incentives where the best units are the ones with hard to find and expensive OOP models while the commonly available plastic kits are all burdened with weak index rules. If you're going to play index 40k then everything should use the index rules (and IIRC everything in legends was still in the original index books).

For example, the Macharius Omega has the same stats in both cases but the legends version costs 18 points vs. 22 points for the index version. A Destroyer tank hunter's gun in legends is Heavy 2/R72"/S12/AP-4/DD3+3, vs. Heavy D3/R60"/S9/AP-3/DD6. But despite having the better gun the legends version costs 8 points vs. 12 points for the index version. They're just not even close to being the same game.

- still no CPs or strats (might be convinced, but it'd be THE change)


If you really don't want complexity the best solution is to require each player to choose their stratagem pool when they make their list. Pick X stratagems (about 5 is probably a good number, maybe 10 at most) and those are the only ones you can use. You can use them however you like within the once-per-phase and CP cost limits but once you pick them that's it. That way you don't have the problem of non-functional units that depend on stratagems to work but you significantly narrow down the scope of stuff to keep track of.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402001.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? 40k but agree to not use strats, secondaries, warlord traits, relics, battleforge rules, faction rules etc. Basically if its not printed on the scenario rules or unit entry don't use it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402007.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:
We're looking to upgrade our playgroup's rules from the super stripped down version I've been playing with for a while.

We're sticking with Combat Patrol size boards an games (no mini boards), as that's a level of play we can afford to slowly grow for our entire group.

But, the **HUGE** layers of rules is just too much. So, Ive been able to get all the 8th indexes, except the IA ones, which is suuuuuuper frustrating.

If there's Legend rules, the obviously take precedence.
We've been collecting the datacards, and got Open War, which is a great way to customize the battle to fit the narrative being told, using it more as a toolbox than a pattern for play.

I had the assumption that the datacards would also have one of each unit, ala the starter set stripped down sheets. Would the datacards be useful to add to indexes/Legends?

Looking for guidance, key things:
- simple gameplay is key
- still no CPs or strats (might be convinced, but it'd be THE change)


Keep in mind that index 40k wasn't as great as many people make it out to be. Sure, it was clean and simple, but for some armies the gaming experience with their index was just flat out horrible.
I have never tried it myself, but one-page rules 40k has a lot of non-fanatic supporters which is usually a good sign. Maybe give that a try?

IIRC legends was created for the units dropped going from indexes to codices, so maybe there is not much point in bothering with indexes?

That said, if you want to stay with GW-40k, I would invest a bit more effort up front to have a better game later. 9th edition did a lot to make small games more playable than previous editions, and from what I gathered in other threads, you are almost exclusively playing short games due to health issues. In essence, almost all of the bloat and issues with 9th stem from the codices, not the core rules.
Sticking with 9th also opens up the option to play crusade, which is a great format for small games and GW has released literally piles of resources with narrative rules, cool missions and an actual functional campaign system. If you think open war is great toolbox, you'd find the campaign books and crusade packs to be treasure troves.

What I would do is take the time to shave off the extra layers from each codex. Identify the "one cool thing" for that army and just drop all the other army rules, detachment rules, sub-factions, stratagems and whatnots. For orks this would be the Waaagh!, for DG the contagions, for drukhari their power from pain rules, chapter tactics for marines, crossfire for GSC and so on. Essentially you want to return to having just the datasheet and one extra rule to keep in mind.
Decide whether you want relics and warlord traits in your game or not. "Not" would definitely remove another layer, but you'd also lose the ability to customize characters.
I'd also suggest keeping the basic stratagems around, I feel like the game would be worse off without stratagems like counter-attack, emergency disembark or overwatch.
Some armies like necrons or admech will still have a lot of interlocking mechanics, but due to the size of your games, it will rarely cause any head-aches. Most of your games will be run with just 4-5 units anyways.

As for the data cards - those are mostly just stratagems, psychic power and mission objectives, you definitely don't need those.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402023.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Sim-Life wrote:
Just play normal 40k but agree to not use strats, secondaries, warlord traits, relics, battleforge rules, faction rules etc. Basically if its not printed on the scenario rules or unit entry don't use it.

This is probably the best approach. The layers-upon-layers of additional rules and abilities are what makes 40k so annoyingly complex but it's fairly easy to strip out entire sections of the rules as suggested above.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402030.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402030.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
Slipspace wrote:
This is probably the best approach. The layers-upon-layers of additional rules and abilities are what makes 40k so annoyingly complex but it's fairly easy to strip out entire sections of the rules as suggested above.


OTOH with the way GW keeps taking stuff off datasheets and making it a stratagem you'll be missing a lot of the game. And TBH datasheets-only 40k is way too shallow to be interesting. Stratagems are a terrible mechanic but when the core rules have been stripped down to nothing it's the best you have for making the game more than "line up in the middle and exchange dice until someone runs out of models".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402033.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
This is probably the best approach. The layers-upon-layers of additional rules and abilities are what makes 40k so annoyingly complex but it's fairly easy to strip out entire sections of the rules as suggested above.


OTOH with the way GW keeps taking stuff off datasheets and making it a stratagem you'll be missing a lot of the game. And TBH datasheets-only 40k is way too shallow to be interesting. Stratagems are a terrible mechanic but when the core rules have been stripped down to nothing it's the best you have for making the game more than "line up in the middle and exchange dice until someone runs out of models".

I agree with you, but the OP did say simple gameplay was key. It's not a game I'd ever want to play, but it fits with what the OP is looking for and I suspect may be better than Index hammer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402035.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:

I had the assumption that the datacards would also have one of each unit, ala the starter set stripped down sheets. Would the datacards be useful to add to indexes/Legends?


The data cards weren't unit stats on cards. They were things like psychic powers, army traits, orders, strats, WL traits, relics,etc. Varied by what each faction had.

If you want to try strats, stick with just the basic ones listed in the rulebook. I doubt your games will be overwhelmed by Spend 1 CP to re-roll a ____, Spend CP to auto-pass a morale test, Spend 1 CP to fire Overwatch, etc.

Other than that? Give 8e Index Hammer a try & see how it goes. (it should work fairly well given what you've said about how you play)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402105.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
Honestly, I'd forgotten they existed, as my Matched Play games focused on my Necron strats.

Adding in BATTLEFORGED is gonna be something we work on adding.

I'm basically the rule person.
We sit down with the codex, or rules and talk about the reasons for the battle, and both players build armies together, with me guiding any rules things, hence it being Open Play.

I basically am the rulebook for them. Kinda DM like, but I also get to play.

I'm considering things like, I bring 50PL and 2 players get 25PL each, and can play the same faction, basically them being detachments.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402118.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402124.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
Karol wrote:
Codex+the last version of the rules updates for it. In case of stuff like marines or people using campaign books they need to bring those two. Technicaly you can bring the core rule book, for speed of access. But A few people it. B the store has one C its weights a lot on top of the other stuff.


These are games being played on my bed, because I have ever increasing numbers of days when it hurts to much to get out of bed.

Very not competitive.
The opposite. They play to spend time with me because I'm dying.
I could switch to the literally basic wargame I designed, and I don't think they'd really care that much.

They love the lore, we all learn about armies together.

As in, we go through the lore in a codex, the player using it reads it out and we roundtable discuss the lore and how to fit it to the overarching story.

One of the players has a playbook and takes highlight notes and then describes the battle like it's a lore point, fitting it in.

The Warhammer 40k hobby is actually helping us all deal with this. If we're not playing, we're talking over lore, or who wants to play next, etc, or we hang out and watch Emperors text to speech and smoke because I'm having a really bad pain day.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402139.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? 40K is a massive and complex game and I can understand not wanting to use of invest in all the miriad of rule books and supplements.

The problem is that its all interactive, its hard to use one thing and not another if you want any semblance of balance.

I would suggest either using the most upto date pts and datasheets from Wahapeedia and just not using CP and Strats or to just play Grimdark Future from OPR.

Grimdark is a very simple rules set, (fits on a single page of A4) designed to be 40K light. The free rules cover more or less all models and factions plus the game is fast, fun and balanced.
I play it with some friends who have given up on main 40K due to the rules bloat and its great fun.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402175.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
I also suggest, if you're going to use stratagems, create a small pool of Command Points by which to spend them, with everyone having the same amount, and then using a very small list of the most thematic strategems to use. For example, EVERYONE gets the generic strats, and then maybe two or three faction unique strats which really sum up their faction. It's what I did when I ran for my old group - everyone had I think about 3 command points, and then had the generic strats, and one or two from their specific faction.

Basically, Index plus a small amount of thematic stratagems worked well for me. If things need tweaking, you'll know it when you see it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402343.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 WisdomLS wrote:
40K is a massive and complex game and I can understand not wanting to use of invest in all the miriad of rule books and supplements.

The problem is that its all interactive, its hard to use one thing and not another if you want any semblance of balance.

I would suggest either using the most upto date pts and datasheets from Wahapeedia and just not using CP and Strats or to just play Grimdark Future from OPR.

Grimdark is a very simple rules set, (fits on a single page of A4) designed to be 40K light. The free rules cover more or less all models and factions plus the game is fast, fun and balanced.
I play it with some friends who have given up on main 40K due to the rules bloat and its great fun.


+1 for OPR, such a fun way to play without my brain wanting to explode from remembering all the crap 40k has]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402401.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:
I could switch to the literally basic wargame I designed, and I don't think they'd really care that much.


Why not switch then? As I've said before, the whole thing you're doing with 40k seems like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Instead of trying to turn a convoluted mess of a game into something simple why not play a game that was designed from the beginning to be simple? It seems like you're wasting a lot of time and energy on trying to justify what you're doing as Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ instead of asking honest questions about what you need from a game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402479.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 WisdomLS wrote:
40K is a massive and complex game and I can understand not wanting to use of invest in all the miriad of rule books and supplements.

The problem is that its all interactive, its hard to use one thing and not another if you want any semblance of balance.

I would suggest either using the most upto date pts and datasheets from Wahapeedia and just not using CP and Strats or to just play Grimdark Future from OPR.

Grimdark is a very simple rules set, (fits on a single page of A4) designed to be 40K light. The free rules cover more or less all models and factions plus the game is fast, fun and balanced.
I play it with some friends who have given up on main 40K due to the rules bloat and its great fun.


+1 for OPR, such a fun way to play without my brain wanting to explode from remembering all the crap 40k has


Most importantly, I feel, OPR is designed to work with this stripped-down style of play. You can have only a handful of units on the table and still get an engaging experience from the interplay of the activation system and morale. The few times I've done 'datasheets-only' 40K it's been pretty bland because so much of the game is now wrapped up in army-wide rules, stratagems, and combos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402502.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? 40k was the most miserable experince I've ever had with 40k. I enjoyed 7th much more, and I played orks.

I'd recommend playing One Page Rules, as already suggested. It's a much better (also simpler) version of the indexes era.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402734.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
I could switch to the literally basic wargame I designed, and I don't think they'd really care that much.


Why not switch then? As I've said before, the whole thing you're doing with 40k seems like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Instead of trying to turn a convoluted mess of a game into something simple why not play a game that was designed from the beginning to be simple? It seems like you're wasting a lot of time and energy on trying to justify what you're doing as Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ instead of asking honest questions about what you need from a game.


Because a lot of people have no interest in tabletop games unless its Warhammer and Games Workshop with models and dice and measuring etc with the official rules. I've tried to get friends to play games in the 40k setting, with 40k models that are better gameplay and rules-wise but because its not PROPER 40k with GW-Dudes and army lists and bloat they just have no interest. Its honestly kind of weird. Even specialist games published by GW set in 40k like Aeronautica, Kill Team, Titanicus, Blackstone etc will just not gain any traction with some people because it's not specifically Warhammer 40,000 Current Edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402751.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
I could switch to the literally basic wargame I designed, and I don't think they'd really care that much.


Why not switch then? As I've said before, the whole thing you're doing with 40k seems like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Instead of trying to turn a convoluted mess of a game into something simple why not play a game that was designed from the beginning to be simple? It seems like you're wasting a lot of time and energy on trying to justify what you're doing as Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ instead of asking honest questions about what you need from a game.
Because 40k *does* work as a simple and basic ruleset. Is it the best? No, I doubt it is, but then, neither is mainline 40k in what it's trying to be.
If the attitude of "if it's not the best, bin it" isn't exactly very productive, especially in this context.

OP, I personally think that IndexHammer is fine enough, and if you want to supplement that with some minor use of stratagems, that could be fun! Again, you and your group will ultimately be the best arbiter of what ends up working and what doesn't!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402791.page GMT Re:Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? 40K


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402800.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Sim-Life wrote:


Because a lot of people have no interest in tabletop games unless its Warhammer and Games Workshop with models and dice and measuring etc with the official rules. I've tried to get friends to play games in the 40k setting, with 40k models that are better gameplay and rules-wise but because its not PROPER 40k with GW-Dudes and army lists and bloat they just have no interest. Its honestly kind of weird. Even specialist games published by GW set in 40k like Aeronautica, Kill Team, Titanicus, Blackstone etc will just not gain any traction with some people because it's not specifically Warhammer 40,000 Current Edition.


Have you considered that those other games, especially the other GW ones you've listed, just don't interest them style/type wise?
Just because you enjoy putting a 40k army on the table doesn't mean you'll get the same enjoyment out of playing a game focused on 1 squad (KT), some sort of boardgame (BSF), or moving little spaceships about. Not even if it's all set in the same universe ip wise.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402807.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


Because a lot of people have no interest in tabletop games unless its Warhammer and Games Workshop with models and dice and measuring etc with the official rules. I've tried to get friends to play games in the 40k setting, with 40k models that are better gameplay and rules-wise but because its not PROPER 40k with GW-Dudes and army lists and bloat they just have no interest. Its honestly kind of weird. Even specialist games published by GW set in 40k like Aeronautica, Kill Team, Titanicus, Blackstone etc will just not gain any traction with some people because it's not specifically Warhammer 40,000 Current Edition.


Have you considered that those other games, especially the other GW ones you've listed, just don't interest them style/type wise?
Just because you enjoy putting a 40k army on the table doesn't mean you'll get the same enjoyment out of playing a game focused on 1 squad (KT), some sort of boardgame (BSF), or moving little spaceships about. Not even if it's all set in the same universe ip wise.



No, because they won't play other, non-GW games of the same type either. Its 40k or nothing. Several of them actually own Aeronautica, Titanicus etc but they never play them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11402809.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[Because 40k *does* work as a simple and basic ruleset. Is it the best? No, I doubt it is, but then, neither is mainline 40k in what it's trying to be.
If the attitude of "if it's not the best, bin it" isn't exactly very productive, especially in this context.


It's absolutely productive because it's the correct answer. OP is stuck in cult of officialness nonsense and keeps trying to force 40k to be a game it isn't intended to be. The rules are never going to work well and it's always going to be extra work trying to get things to work even close to how OP wants to play. So why keep trying when better alternatives exist? Why does the Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ Game™ label matter?

OP, I personally think that IndexHammer is fine enough, and if you want to supplement that with some minor use of stratagems, that could be fun! Again, you and your group will ultimately be the best arbiter of what ends up working and what doesn't!


Which army did you play in the index era? Because as a guard player IndexHammer wasn't fine. It was a miserable experience with a completely broken index. All of the vehicles sucked and were useless paperweights, but conscript blobs with complete immunity to morale (the thing that was supposed to be their one drawback) were overpowered enough to get an emergency nerf followed by additional nerfs in the codex era just to make 100% sure the list was dead. There was very little middle ground to make a list which had a decent chance to win but wasn't overpowered and not fun at all for your opponent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403251.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[Because 40k *does* work as a simple and basic ruleset. Is it the best? No, I doubt it is, but then, neither is mainline 40k in what it's trying to be.
If the attitude of "if it's not the best, bin it" isn't exactly very productive, especially in this context.


It's absolutely productive because it's the correct answer.
There isn't a correct answer. For someone berating someone for needing an "official" response, you do seem obsessed with an idea of "correctness".

Live and let live. It doesn't affect you what other people do in their own group. We're just trying to provide advice within the parameters OP has provided. Can't do that, don't respond. After all, why did you come into a thread clearly marked at discussion 40k and try talking about other games?


Which army did you play in the index era?
Space Marines (both Firstborn and Primaris), Guard, Scions, AdMech, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, occasionally Tau.
Because as a guard player IndexHammer wasn't fine.
It was fine for me and my group.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403502.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
I could switch to the literally basic wargame I designed, and I don't think they'd really care that much.


Why not switch then? As I've said before, the whole thing you're doing with 40k seems like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Instead of trying to turn a convoluted mess of a game into something simple why not play a game that was designed from the beginning to be simple? It seems like you're wasting a lot of time and energy on trying to justify what you're doing as Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ instead of asking honest questions about what you need from a game.


Since you seemed to skip this entire post, which answers the "why not switch systems?".

These are games being played on my bed, because I have ever increasing numbers of days when it hurts to much to get out of bed.

Very not competitive.
The opposite. They play to spend time with me because I'm dying.
I could switch to the literally basic wargame I designed, and I don't think they'd really care that much.

They love the lore, we all learn about armies together.

As in, we go through the lore in a codex, the player using it reads it out and we roundtable discuss the lore and how to fit it to the overarching story.

One of the players has a playbook and takes highlight notes and then describes the battle like it's a lore point, fitting it in.

The Warhammer 40k hobby is actually helping us all deal with this. If we're not playing, we're talking over lore, or who wants to play next, etc, or we hang out and watch Emperors text to speech and smoke because I'm having a really bad pain day.


Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403670.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:

Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?


Lore does not have to be tied with the rules.

You can switch systems while still using the lore to backup your game's narrative
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403694.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403729.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:

Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?


Lore does not have to be tied with the rules.

You can switch systems while still using the lore to backup your game's narrative


As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.

Obviously my posts here get nothing but CSB rants and people picking apart why we enjoy the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im remembering why I dropped the hobby.

I can't ask for guidance or help without all this fething bs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403748.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:

Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?


Lore does not have to be tied with the rules.

You can switch systems while still using the lore to backup your game's narrative


As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.

Obviously my posts here get nothing but CSB rants and people picking apart why we enjoy the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im remembering why I dropped the hobby.

I can't ask for guidance or help without all this fething bs.


Look, don't lash out at me, you asked for a simplified version of the game, we provided one that was litterally designed to work with 40k minis in a way that is more balanced/enjoyable than indexhammer.

If you don't want people's opinion, don't ask for it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403750.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:
As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.


But why do you need to have an Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ Game™ to enjoy the 40k hobby? Does the GW fun police break down your door and seize your books if you try to discuss the lore while playing a game with third-party rules for your models? Does the paint refuse to stick to models that have been tainted by being used with non-GW rules?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403761.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
It's not like GW has a monopoly on the whole aspect of "the hobby" (or any aspect of it, really). If I paint my GW models with Vallejo paints while using GW matched or narrative play rules, is that any less valid of a way to engage?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403763.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There isn't a correct answer.


Sure there is. Given OP's needs there is a choice that best fits those needs, and the reality is that it isn't 40k. Trying to make 40k into a game it isn't is going to require more work for a less enjoyable result vs. playing a different game that is designed to work well with a small number of models and very simple rules.

Live and let live. It doesn't affect you what other people do in their own group. We're just trying to provide advice within the parameters OP has provided. Can't do that, don't respond. After all, why did you come into a thread clearly marked at discussion 40k and try talking about other games?


It's a public forum. Post a question, get answers. I'm not going to stop posting my opinion just because you don't like seeing people disagree with you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403764.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:

Obviously my posts here get nothing but CSB rants and people picking apart why we enjoy the hobby.


A lot of us are totally with you 'Mage. Don't let the ones who aren't get you down.

Personally, I like a lot of the layers of rules that your crew is all about stripping down, but I totally support the validity of your choices, and I am grateful for the way GW designed rules so that it's easy to strip them away.

It's been a long time since I read my indexes, and I never had all of them to begin with, but I do know that bespoke codex strats go away as soon as you stop battleforging, and I think that's brilliant design because it gives people who hate strats a super easy, book-legal way to make them go away.

Now, of course, there are other problems associated with doing this- it was easier when equipment upgrades were still datacard features, because you might hate strats but like that equipment, and RAW the baby now has no choice but to exit with the bath water.

One of the things I particularly respect about your playstyle is its reliance on Theatres of War. So many people ignore these, and I feel that they have crazy story potential- I use them all the time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403767.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:

Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?


Lore does not have to be tied with the rules.

You can switch systems while still using the lore to backup your game's narrative


As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.

If you have to keep modifying the rules to satisfy your needs, the 40k hobby is not being enjoyed by everyone.

Look at One Page Rules, since you claim it's just you and a group of 20 friendlies. Doing a different ruleset shouldn't be an issue. Or look at Killteam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[Because 40k *does* work as a simple and basic ruleset. Is it the best? No, I doubt it is, but then, neither is mainline 40k in what it's trying to be.
If the attitude of "if it's not the best, bin it" isn't exactly very productive, especially in this context.


It's absolutely productive because it's the correct answer.
There isn't a correct answer. For someone berating someone for needing an "official" response, you do seem obsessed with an idea of "correctness".

Live and let live. It doesn't affect you what other people do in their own group. We're just trying to provide advice within the parameters OP has provided. Can't do that, don't respond. After all, why did you come into a thread clearly marked at discussion 40k and try talking about other games?


Which army did you play in the index era?
Space Marines (both Firstborn and Primaris), Guard, Scions, AdMech, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, occasionally Tau.
Because as a guard player IndexHammer wasn't fine.
It was fine for me and my group.

LOL of course YOU would defend the Index era. Index era was hot fething garbage. Absolutely zero balance and messed up rules everywhere. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403773.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
PenitentJake wrote:
It's been a long time since I read my indexes, and I never had all of them to begin with, but I do know that bespoke codex strats go away as soon as you stop battleforging, and I think that's brilliant design because it gives people who hate strats a super easy, book-legal way to make them go away.


Why does it matter if it's "book legal" to make them go away? If you and your opponent don't like stratagems why can't you just say "let's not use stratagems", why do you need official rule where you can do something unrelated and trigger the removal of stratagems? This cult of officialness nonsense is so silly given your status as a proud narrative player who doesn't care about matched play or tournaments.

PenitentJake wrote:
and RAW the baby now has no choice but to exit with the bath water


Or you just don't play RAW?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403774.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
PenitentJake wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:

Obviously my posts here get nothing but CSB rants and people picking apart why we enjoy the hobby.


A lot of us are totally with you 'Mage. Don't let the ones who aren't get you down.

Personally, I like a lot of the layers of rules that your crew is all about stripping down, but I totally support the validity of your choices, and I am grateful for the way GW designed rules so that it's easy to strip them away.

It's been a long time since I read my indexes, and I never had all of them to begin with, but I do know that bespoke codex strats go away as soon as you stop battleforging, and I think that's brilliant design because it gives people who hate strats a super easy, book-legal way to make them go away.

Now, of course, there are other problems associated with doing this- it was easier when equipment upgrades were still datacard features, because you might hate strats but like that equipment, and RAW the baby now has no choice but to exit with the bath water.

One of the things I particularly respect about your playstyle is its reliance on Theatres of War. So many people ignore these, and I feel that they have crazy story potential- I use them all the time.


Thank you.

Some of the kids are actually really leaning towards the fuller rules. We're working with a 3d mini printer to upscale some Roman shield and sword minis to Custodes size, because they LOVE the Roman Centurion aesthetic, and Custodes, especially at the size we play, will be cheap and easy for them to paint.

We've been adding in Dynasties/WBB and such, as they generally work with non BATTLEFORGED armies. We're gonna start playing bigger games, then add in BATTLEFORGED and the core strats/strategic reserves, etc. Then we'll add in codex strats.

We generally take the week before playing, read over any applicable lore, talk about the setting, the kinds of forces, read the codex/index/Legends entries and such. Its a whole process we've developed as a family.

I've got two players interested in R&H, one going full mutants and melee, the other a very recently turned traitor guard force, still loaded in Chimeras. Two very very different armies and backstories.

We haven't done Objective based missions yet. Secondaries seem like a real headache, I'm thinking we stick with the mission ones (if any).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403782.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403782.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
Spoiler:

CadianSgtBob wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
It's been a long time since I read my indexes, and I never had all of them to begin with, but I do know that bespoke codex strats go away as soon as you stop battleforging, and I think that's brilliant design because it gives people who hate strats a super easy, book-legal way to make them go away.


Why does it matter if it's "book legal" to make them go away? If you and your opponent don't like stratagems why can't you just say "let's not use stratagems", why do you need official rule where you can do something unrelated and trigger the removal of stratagems? This cult of officialness nonsense is so silly given your status as a proud narrative player who doesn't care about matched play or tournaments.

PenitentJake wrote:
and RAW the baby now has no choice but to exit with the bath water


Or you just don't play RAW?


Clearly, 'Mage, Smudge, myself and others, we obviously DO play in circles where we have all the flexibility in the world to do with the rules as we see fit.

What makes book legality important is that it creates opportunities for people who aren't as fortunate as those of us with likeminded circles of friends and family with whom they can play. In my case, I've been considering a drop-in Crusade league at a local FLGS in addition to playing within my circle, and book legality will certainly be a factor if I decide to do so.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403795.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
PenitentJake wrote:

What makes book legality important is that it creates opportunities for people who aren't as fortunate as those of us with likeminded circles of friends and family with whom they can play. In my case, I've been considering a drop-in Crusade league at a local FLGS in addition to playing within my circle, and book legality will certainly be a factor if I decide to do so.


But why does that matter in the real world? You can make up hypothetical scenarios where someone insists that stratagems must be part of the game and you pull out your clever trump card of "BUT IF IM NOT BATTLEFORGED THEY GO AWAY" but that's not reality. In the real world this hypothetical person is going to say "cool story bro, bring a battleforged army or don't play" because they want a standard matched play game and don't care about your attempt to find Official­™ Rules™ that allow you to play something else.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403800.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:

Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?


Lore does not have to be tied with the rules.

You can switch systems while still using the lore to backup your game's narrative


As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.

Obviously my posts here get nothing but CSB rants and people picking apart why we enjoy the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im remembering why I dropped the hobby.

I can't ask for guidance or help without all this fething bs.


So just put the people you find useless (or worse) on ignore.
Then it won't matter how much CSB rants at you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403801.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
ccs wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:

Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?


Lore does not have to be tied with the rules.

You can switch systems while still using the lore to backup your game's narrative


As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.

Obviously my posts here get nothing but CSB rants and people picking apart why we enjoy the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im remembering why I dropped the hobby.

I can't ask for guidance or help without all this fething bs.


So just put the people you find useless (or worse) on ignore.
Then it won't matter how much CSB rants at you.


Given how prolific and inflammatory CSB is I don't think that would help.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403934.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blndmage wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:

Sorry, hold on, you had to have read this. Did you just ignore the entire post to pull out that one line?


Lore does not have to be tied with the rules.

You can switch systems while still using the lore to backup your game's narrative


As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.

Obviously my posts here get nothing but CSB rants and people picking apart why we enjoy the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im remembering why I dropped the hobby.

I can't ask for guidance or help without all this fething bs.

I think you're out of line here. Yes, some of the responses have not been entirely helpful here, but the post you're replying to doesn't seem to fall into that category, and many other posts here have at least been trying to be helpful.

You've asked a pretty open-ended question so it's not surprising you're going to get a variety of opinions. You've said yourself that you're looking to modify the standard 40k rules in some way, so why are you surprised that people are offering suggestions that go along with that? Maybe some are too far from your ideal style of play, but since we're not you, we can't know how far that is. You've said you could switch to a whole different wargame that you designed yourself and your group wouldn't care, so it's really weird to criticise suggestions for systems that aren't strictly 40k by shouting that it's the 40k hobby that your group enjoys. If that hobby includes using some form of official 40k rules there's a contradiction in your previous statements. If you're just talking about background and theme, there are many suitable rulesets you can use that don't force you to abandon that theme.

I'll reiterate my earlier advice to try regular 40k stripped of all the strats, purity bonuses and so on. Or try One Page Rules. They may be the correct amount of streamlining for you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11403943.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
As I've said multiple times now.
Its not just the game system but the WARHAMMER 40K HOBBY that is enjoyed by everyone.


But why do you need to have an Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ Game™ to enjoy the 40k hobby?
Why shouldn't it exist? Why does what someone else want affect you in any way? I really don't get why you care so much about how other people enjoy themselves.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There isn't a correct answer.


Sure there is.
Maybe there is - but it's one that you're not providing, because OP's "success" criteria, as it were, requires the game to be 40k. If it's not 40k, then it's not a correct answer.
Given OP's needs there is a choice that best fits those needs, and the reality is that it isn't 40k. Trying to make 40k into a game it isn't is going to require more work for a less enjoyable result vs. playing a different game that is designed to work well with a small number of models and very simple rules.
I disagree, and I think your "reality" is being blinkered by a refusal to accept that others might prefer different ways to play.

Ultimately, you're still out of line. OP isn't after another game. They're after 40k. Any suggestion which doesn't fit that misses the point of the OP, and is a worthless contribution. If I was after list advice for Grey Knights, and someone said "just play Primaris Marines", that would be absurd.

Live and let live. It doesn't affect you what other people do in their own group. We're just trying to provide advice within the parameters OP has provided. Can't do that, don't respond. After all, why did you come into a thread clearly marked at discussion 40k and try talking about other games?


It's a public forum. Post a question, get answers. I'm not going to stop posting my opinion just because you don't like seeing people disagree with you.
Just because it's a public forum doesn't mean you get to talk about ANYTHING. There are topics and OP for a reason - to set the expectations and parameters for the conversation. There's a reason we have a rule that states "stay on topic". Or do I get to roll into any of your threads now and talk about how I really like the themed detachments from Vigilus, even though you're talking about something completely different, because it's a "public forum"?

OP has made clear what their parameters are, and saying "just play a different game" is not one of them. If that is your opinion, what do you gain by spouting it?

Your opinion is fine if you want to make a new thread for it, but right now, you're just clogging up another thread out of pointless vindictiveness. Or to put another way, opinions are like donkey-caves - we all have them, but I don't want to see your donkey-cave when I'm trying to eat my breakfast.

Slipspace wrote:You've asked a pretty open-ended question so it's not surprising you're going to get a variety of opinions. You've said yourself that you're looking to modify the standard 40k rules in some way, so why are you surprised that people are offering suggestions that go along with that?
But that's not what most BIndmage is having an issue with, from what I see - the issue here is people saying "WHY PLAY 40K, JUST PLAY A WHOLE OTHER GAME, STOP TRYING TO CHANGE 40K", which isn't what she's looking for. Any comment that basically says "yeah, don't play 40k" entirely misses the point, and is counterproductive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404132.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slipspace wrote:You've asked a pretty open-ended question so it's not surprising you're going to get a variety of opinions. You've said yourself that you're looking to modify the standard 40k rules in some way, so why are you surprised that people are offering suggestions that go along with that?
But that's not what most BIndmage is having an issue with, from what I see - the issue here is people saying "WHY PLAY 40K, JUST PLAY A WHOLE OTHER GAME, STOP TRYING TO CHANGE 40K", which isn't what she's looking for. Any comment that basically says "yeah, don't play 40k" entirely misses the point, and is counterproductive.


They literally said:

Blndmage wrote:
I could switch to the literally basic wargame I designed, and I don't think they'd really care that much.


Which is why I pointed out that complaining about getting non-40k suggestions for the game seems odd and complaining about those suggestions in the way they did is confusing given their own comments. I mention that literally 2 sentences after the one you quoted.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404144.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But that's not what most BIndmage is having an issue with, from what I see - the issue here is people saying "WHY PLAY 40K, JUST PLAY A WHOLE OTHER GAME, STOP TRYING TO CHANGE 40K", which isn't what she's looking for. Any comment that basically says "yeah, don't play 40k" entirely misses the point, and is counterproductive.


Its because Blindmage has explicitely said they're willing to play an entirely homebrew system and so is their playgroup.
Saying this opens up the can of worms of alternative systems. And if you're removing a ton of stuff to get a ultra stripped down version of the game, we might as well suggest a system that is effectively that. OnePageRules was designed to be a stripped down version of 40k, that let's you play the exact same models that you already own BUT with a more balanced approach.

It's only natural that people suggest it when its basically exactly what OP has described in their original post

And as i already stated, OP seems to be particularly fond of the Lore aspect of the game from their description of how their games are usually setup. Setting != System. Heck, you could play Infinity but in the 40k setting if you really wanted.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404147.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But that's not what most BIndmage is having an issue with, from what I see - the issue here is people saying "WHY PLAY 40K, JUST PLAY A WHOLE OTHER GAME, STOP TRYING TO CHANGE 40K", which isn't what she's looking for. Any comment that basically says "yeah, don't play 40k" entirely misses the point, and is counterproductive.


Its because Blindmage has explicitely said they're willing to play an entirely homebrew system and so is their playgroup.
Saying this opens up the can of worms of alternative systems. And if you're removing a ton of stuff to get a ultra stripped down version of the game, we might as well suggest a system that is effectively that. OnePageRules was designed to be a stripped down version of 40k, that let's you play the exact same models that you already own BUT with a more balanced approach.

It's only natural that people suggest it when its basically exactly what OP has described in their original post

And as i already stated, OP seems to be particularly fond of the Lore aspect of the game from their description of how their games are usually setup. Setting != System. Heck, you could play Infinity but in the 40k setting if you really wanted.

I wish I had the time and people to get One Page Rules off the ground. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404166.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
EviscerationPlague wrote:
[
I wish I had the time and people to get One Page Rules off the ground.


I'm slowly making people at my LGS try it, 40k players are hard to dislodge lol.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404175.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game? 40k) said we can grab a Recruit box, I'd already explained why it's such a good deal. Especially when we can save for a second one and have 2 boards for a proper size board.
We'll probably stick with Micro games until then. Since there's only 9PL of Marines and 12PL of Necrons, and these aren't my Necrons, two new armies. We'll probably use the actual intro stuff to start the kids who are really wanting more off properly.

Odds are we'll wind up with literal gold Marines and black and neon Necrons, painted lovingly by toddlers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404265.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why shouldn't it exist? Why does what someone else want affect you in any way? I really don't get why you care so much about how other people enjoy themselves.


This is a public forum, a place where discussions happen. And you seem to understand this fact because you're quite happy to keep posting your opinion about people and games that don't affect you in any way. Why do you care so much?

And TBH, after yet another round of OP asking for "advice" and ignoring anything other than "everything you're doing is great" it's becoming pretty clear that this is all about OP seeking validation for her personal games. So sorry, but sometimes when you come seeking validation the answer is "no".

Maybe there is - but it's one that you're not providing, because OP's "success" criteria, as it were, requires the game to be 40k. If it's not 40k, then it's not a correct answer.


OP has literally said she has written her own game and everyone in her group would be happy to play it instead of 40k.

And even if she hadn't insisting on cult of officialness nonsense is self destructive behavior and the correct answer is "you should play the fun game, not the one with the most GW copyright statements on it". If you state your goals for a game and 40k clearly doesn't meet those goals then why would you want to keep playing 40k instead of an alternative that does?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404325.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why shouldn't it exist? Why does what someone else want affect you in any way? I really don't get why you care so much about how other people enjoy themselves.


This is a public forum, a place where discussions happen. And you seem to understand this fact because you're quite happy to keep posting your opinion about people and games that don't affect you in any way. Why do you care so much?

And TBH, after yet another round of OP asking for "advice" and ignoring anything other than "everything you're doing is great" it's becoming pretty clear that this is all about OP seeking validation for her personal games. So sorry, but sometimes when you come seeking validation the answer is "no".

Maybe there is - but it's one that you're not providing, because OP's "success" criteria, as it were, requires the game to be 40k. If it's not 40k, then it's not a correct answer.


OP has literally said she has written her own game and everyone in her group would be happy to play it instead of 40k.

And even if she hadn't insisting on cult of officialness nonsense is self destructive behavior and the correct answer is "you should play the fun game, not the one with the most GW copyright statements on it". If you state your goals for a game and 40k clearly doesn't meet those goals then why would you want to keep playing 40k instead of an alternative that does?


If you actually read my posts, you'd see that since I started this post, have had some of the kids asking for more mechanics added in, more complexity, so, for those in our group that are wanting that, we're getting the recruit starter box to go through the "how to play" rules as the designers intended and see if they prefer that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404483.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:


Or you just don't play RAW?


If you don't play RAW you have to negotiate something with the opponent, which seems to be heresy for you. So it's kinda confusing that you're now suggesting not to play RAW as an option.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404561.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blackie wrote:
If you don't play RAW you have to negotiate something with the opponent, which seems to be heresy for you. So it's kinda confusing that you're now suggesting not to play RAW as an option.


You still have to negotiate something because regardless of what is technically RAW the standard expectation is matched play with all rules (battle-forged armies, stratagems, etc) included, usually with the current competitive tournament mission pack.

And please stop dishonestly trying to bring in arguments from other threads. The fact that I said one thing requires negotiation but another thing doesn't is not a statement that the thing that needs negotiation is somehow bad. Two things can be different without one being better or worse than the other.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404565.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:


And please stop dishonestly trying to bring in arguments from other threads. The fact that I said one thing requires negotiation but another thing doesn't is not a statement that the thing that needs negotiation is somehow bad. Two things can be different without one being better or worse than the other.


Absolutely, that's what I think as well. I can't even think of 40k without some sort of pre-game negotiation. Glad to hear that it's not a bad thing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404572.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
 Blackie wrote:
Absolutely, that's what I think as well. I can't even think of 40k without some sort of pre-game negotiation. Glad to hear that it's not a bad thing.


Oh, it's absolutely a bad thing and it's a shame that GW's incompetence has become so normalized that you can't even imagine playing a game without negotiating fixes to various rule issues. But I acknowledge that it often must be done and that playing strict RAW Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ is not some morally superior state that everyone must aim for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404581.page GMT Core Rules + Indexes (+ datacards?) for a basic game?
CadianSgtBob wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:

What makes book legality important is that it creates opportunities for people who aren't as fortunate as those of us with likeminded circles of friends and family with whom they can play. In my case, I've been considering a drop-in Crusade league at a local FLGS in addition to playing within my circle, and book legality will certainly be a factor if I decide to do so.


But why does that matter in the real world? You can make up hypothetical scenarios where someone insists that stratagems must be part of the game and you pull out your clever trump card of "BUT IF IM NOT BATTLEFORGED THEY GO AWAY" but that's not reality. In the real world this hypothetical person is going to say "cool story bro, bring a battleforged army or don't play" because they want a standard matched play game and don't care about your attempt to find Official­™ Rules™ that allow you to play something else.


Because the only real world standard that matters in the context of this thread is the specific play group and expectations of the OP. It isn't rocket surgery.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/806105/11404726.page GMT