Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not necessarily!

The first Saintly power we see is via Euphrate Keeler. She’s not a Psyker, yet is able to banish a daemon accidentally summoned when reading the Book of Lorgar. And used golden light to do so.

And so she becomes the First Saint, and for us as the reader? The first sign there’s something to the claims of the Emperor’s Divinty.

Yet….it can’t have come from Him On Earth. Otherwise, he’d have known something was up, and Horus wouldn’t have caught The Imperium with its pants down.

What I think may be going on? A Warp Entity (and there are many entirely un associated with the big four) had been, and continues, to feed off worship of The Emperor. Overtime, its continued to grow and gain power. But doesn’t yet seem fully realised as a god. But it is being shaped by its worshippers all the same, and so isn’t exactly hostile to mankind (uncaring, arguably. But not hostile)

It may be it needs The Emperor to die, so the two entities can merge in the Warp, and boom - new God Of Smelly Hoomans.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does seem entirely possible they’re feeding into one another. But that doesn’t mean Lorgar was right - only that his claim became true.

The Imperial Truth may have been, technically a lie. But it’s also true. Despite the monicker? The Chaos Gods aren’t true Gods. Their influence over realspace is minimal, and whilst immeasurably powerful? They not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent etc. They’re no more gods to the sentient species of the galaxy than I am to Ants, simply because I’m more individually powerful and can do a bunch of stuff Ants can’t.

We’ll never know the true goal of the Imperial Truth, but I genuinely don’t think it was ever a plan to bagsy all the worship and adoration for The Emperor. If he wanted that? By golly he could’ve got it, and then some.

Rather I think it was a concerted effort to get the shattered remnants of humanity to Do It For Themselves. To build a shiny, glowing Empire not for The Emperor, but for all of mankind. Because done right? Suffering and poverty could’ve melted away in a truly abundant society. And it’s hard to do that when superstition and false religions influence things.

I mean, religion and organised worship can do a lot good. Like…a lot of good. But it’s also open to being abused as a method to elevate a handful at the expense of everyone else.

And ultimately? If Chaos has fewer mortal adherents doing rituals and summoning and that? Their ability to influence realspace is ever more curtailed. They might kick and scream in the warp all they want. But if no-one is opening the door when they knock, however politely? They’re kinda stuffed.

This is reflect in the Orky resistance to Chaos. Without wibbling on much longer? Ork society is so permissively Orky? There just isn’t much there for the gods to promise an Ork can’t take for himself already. No fear of death. No formal laws to feel unjust. No disease as we experience it. No taboo about clobbering someone, whether it be for a laugh, out of boredom or to nick their teef etc.

Humanity could have that in an idealised society. And that’s what I think The Imperial Truth was a means to end for.

 Da Boss wrote:
What are you talking about- my Word Bearers ARE the main chaos space marine faction!

The Black Legion? Mere patsies.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does seem entirely possible they’re feeding into one another. But that doesn’t mean Lorgar was right - only that his claim became true.

The Imperial Truth may have been, technically a lie. But it’s also true. Despite the monicker? The Chaos Gods aren’t true Gods. Their influence over realspace is minimal, and whilst immeasurably powerful? They not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent etc. They’re no more gods to the sentient species of the galaxy than I am to Ants, simply because I’m more individually powerful and can do a bunch of stuff Ants can’t.

We’ll never know the true goal of the Imperial Truth, but I genuinely don’t think it was ever a plan to bagsy all the worship and adoration for The Emperor. If he wanted that? By golly he could’ve got it, and then some.

Rather I think it was a concerted effort to get the shattered remnants of humanity to Do It For Themselves. To build a shiny, glowing Empire not for The Emperor, but for all of mankind. Because done right? Suffering and poverty could’ve melted away in a truly abundant society. And it’s hard to do that when superstition and false religions influence things.

I mean, religion and organised worship can do a lot good. Like…a lot of good. But it’s also open to being abused as a method to elevate a handful at the expense of everyone else.

And ultimately? If Chaos has fewer mortal adherents doing rituals and summoning and that? Their ability to influence realspace is ever more curtailed. They might kick and scream in the warp all they want. But if no-one is opening the door when they knock, however politely? They’re kinda stuffed.

This is reflect in the Orky resistance to Chaos. Without wibbling on much longer? Ork society is so permissively Orky? There just isn’t much there for the gods to promise an Ork can’t take for himself already. No fear of death. No formal laws to feel unjust. No disease as we experience it. No taboo about clobbering someone, whether it be for a laugh, out of boredom or to nick their teef etc.

Humanity could have that in an idealised society. And that’s what I think The Imperial Truth was a means to end for.

mrFickle wrote:
But if the imperial truth had acknowledged the existence of gods or otherworldly being regardless of how much he demonised them some people would have sought out their power, as he did and as others did anyway. He’d have been better off giving human a reason to want to reject chaos because chaos can’t take over you unless you want it to.

It seemed to work for the interex

Iracundus wrote:
It would be useful to refer back to Andy Chambers' designer notes for the 2nd edition Chaos Codex for this. That was the first real detailed expansion of the CSM and the first introduction of Abaddon as a playable character.

Basically, Andy Chambers wanted the focus to be kept on the mortal CSM and their motivations as embittered traitors trying now to tear down everything they built before. The Black Legion is a "big tent" faction that can include all sorts, from the mono-god followers to the ones that are just using Chaos for their own ends like the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion etc. The Word Bearers, while dedicated to Chaos as a whole, are on the whole religious zealot side which would then exclude the more transactional Legions.

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
Aside from everything else, Black Legion is the ordinary vanilla flavour of Chaos Space Marines. The Word Bearers have a more interesting theme and colour scheme in my book, and therefore going for gangland swaggering punks in spiky black power armour who are Jacks of all trades of Chaos is a better bet for the same reason Ultramarines are sounder Loyalist poster boys than Iron Hands. And I say this as a lifelong lover of niche and obscure things: Vanilla has its given place, especially for marketing reasons.

Put differently, having popular crowd pullers of ordinary taste better allow all the niche stuff, the special flavours and acquired taste parts of the setting to thrive.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, Abaddon considerably precedes our modern understanding of the Heresy, and the events and acts that lead to it.

Indeed, outside of the god aligned former Legions? The other traitor legions didn’t really get fleshed out in 2nd edition 40K, when Abaddon and Chaos as we now know it took shape.

I couldn’t tell you exactly when the fleshing out really began. Likely the Index Astartes series, but could’ve been the 3.5 Codex.