<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters? "]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
Sniper rifles used to be able to do this in past editions of the game and it hardly made snipers OP. Why limit it so much in 10th edition?

Yeah, I can see a 10-man Ratling unit castrating a Tactical squad by saying "Three hits on the Sergeant, three on the melta, one on the lascannon" might be a bit harsh. If it was "all directed hits must be on the same model" it wouldn't be too bad.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11815996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11815996.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
Some aspect warrior units rely on the exarch (the sergeant) to do most of the heavy lifting. Taking out the executioner banshee exarch, for instance, basically cuts a 5-girl squad's offense in half. And it's just kind of hard to make that *fun* for the player on the receiving end.

Depending on the army, there's also the argument that killing the special weapon guy would just result in the not-special guy picking up his wargear. It's the same logic behind letting players choose how wounds get allocated from non-precision attacks. Brother Meltagunneus got sniped? Brother Boltarion picks up his much more valuable gun and is now mechanically identical to brother Meltagunneus.

Also worth noting that in editions where snipers could assign their hits as they pleased, they only got to do so on to-hit(?) rolls of 6.

I think there's a workable way to bring back snipers' ability to snipe out specific non-character models, but it would be a pretty big change that would require some kind of significant balancing factor, be it a big points increase to snipers or something that limits how often they get to do it. (Core stratagem maybe?)

Generally, it's probably less of a headache for the designers to not have to worry about it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816075.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
Guard? Decent amount of Precison.
Marines? Same.
Chaos? With one glaring exception, none.
Emperor's Children? Almost everything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816076.page GMT Re:Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816082.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
But making it a default part of the precision rule or sniper weapons in general would mean it would have to be balanced when people are fielding 30 rangers or ratlings or whatever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816084.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
Let's say your Ratlings manage to deal one wound that they assign to the Eldar gunplatform.

Now, effectively any followup shooting from another unit 'gains' precision because you're forced to finish off wounded models before assigning wounds elsewhere.

And now that multi-wound squads are standard fare in 40k that's a big problem. Whereas multi-wound squads used to be very rare in previous editions. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816166.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Using precision to target non-character models throws up a problem with multi-wound units.

Let's say your Ratlings manage to deal one wound that they assign to the Eldar gunplatform.

Now, effectively any followup shooting from another unit 'gains' precision because you're forced to finish off wounded models before assigning wounds elsewhere.

And now that multi-wound squads are standard fare in 40k that's a big problem. Whereas multi-wound squads used to be very rare in previous editions.


Okay, been a while since I've read the rules so I might be forgetting something, but how is this different from a sniper putting one wound on a character in the current rules? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816182.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 cuda1179 wrote:


Okay, been a while since I've read the rules so I might be forgetting something, but how is this different from a sniper putting one wound on a character in the current rules?

Characters can only be allocated to if they're the last ones left, even if they're wounded.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816187.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 kirotheavenger wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:


Okay, been a while since I've read the rules so I might be forgetting something, but how is this different from a sniper putting one wound on a character in the current rules?

Characters can only be allocated to if they're the last ones left, even if they're wounded.


Yep, forgot that. Sorry this edition has been 100% theoretical for me with no actual games played.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816200.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters? 40K for ya, logic doesnt play into it

One possible speculation why precision got nerfed would be the game design paradigms GW use which try to eliminate "feelsbad" moments from the game.. resulting in blandness.. "fair", boring blandness..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816220.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 tauist wrote:
Logically speaking, yes, it feels hella dumb that "Precision" doesnt actually do what its supposed to do, its just a gotcha for wounding characters. But thats modern 40K for ya, logic doesnt play into it

One possible speculation why precision got nerfed would be the game design paradigms GW use which try to eliminate "feelsbad" moments from the game.. resulting in blandness.. "fair", boring blandness..


I mean. Old precision meant that you could pretty easily end up with a unit that just didn't get to do the cool stuff you paid points to do. That combat squadded tac squad with a missile launcher was suddenly just a bolter squad. The modern approach means that you won't suddenly lose the missile launcher guy, but you have to be careful about how you position the character giving your squad lethal hits or whatever.

I have a little nostalgia for the old approach, but feelbad moments *are* something to try and avoid with your game design.

If snipers were generally presented as characters rather than rifle squads, I think you could probably bring back model sniping relatively painlessly. I don't necessarily mind when something expensive like a vindicaire or a death jester snipes out that missile launcher. But rangers can come in squads of up to 10. If only your expensive solo snipers could snipe out specific models, then it would basically turn into a challenge of hiding your better wargear from 1 or 2 models in the enemy army. Doable. Interesting. Still has a chance of failure. But a whole firing squad deadset on removing all your special guns as soon as they show up is going to be frustrating for the player who suddenly doesn't get to use his coolest toys. And it's going to suck for some armies more than others. Tyranids and necrons tend to have homogenous loadouts across a unit, whereas armies with special weapon guys and sergeant types have a lot of their value loaded up in a small number of models.

Or again, this could maybe work as a core strat. 1CP. When you target a unit with one or more precision weapons, choose one model in the enemy unit that is visible to the attacking unit. Wounds must be allocated to that model. So it costs the attacker some CP, and the defender has counterplay in the form of positioning his more importnat models where the snipers can't see them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816264.page GMT Re:Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 Lathe Biosas wrote:
At least give it to the overpriced Vindicare Assassin.

If I recall that was his big thing back in 4e.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816272.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816272.page GMT Re:Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 Orkeosaurus wrote:
 Lathe Biosas wrote:
At least give it to the overpriced Vindicare Assassin.

If I recall that was his big thing back in 4e.


He could select the specific model to shoot.

But it wasn't overpowered, as you only get x amount of shots per turn and the Vindicare wasn't going to target Vehicles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816278.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 Wyldhunt wrote:


If snipers were generally presented as characters rather than rifle squads, I think you could probably bring back model sniping relatively painlessly. I don't necessarily mind when something expensive like a vindicaire or a death jester snipes out that missile launcher. But rangers can come in squads of up to 10.


I do think it's very strange how snipers in 40k are almost exclusively carried enmass as squad weapons. 10 Ratlings, 10 Scout Snipers, 10 Rangers. It doesn't feel right on any level. I can only understand from the practical view that snipers don't pair well with other infantry weapons and players don't like the feeling of squads with mixed-usage weapons. Although that didn't stop Devastators or Tacticals being exactly that.

The Forgeworld Elysian Sniper squad springs to mind - a special squad of 3 snipers and 3 spotters. That's exactly what sniper squads *should* be. RIP Forgeworld, you truly were everything 40k should be yet GW wasn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lathe Biosas wrote:
 Orkeosaurus wrote:
 Lathe Biosas wrote:
At least give it to the overpriced Vindicare Assassin.

If I recall that was his big thing back in 4e.


He could select the specific model to shoot.

But it wasn't overpowered, as you only get x amount of shots per turn and the Vindicare wasn't going to target Vehicles.

Didn't he have a ridiculously strong AT super-penetrator round plenty capable of one-shotting Landraiders? Or did that only come in in 5th?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816879.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 kirotheavenger wrote:

I do think it's very strange how snipers in 40k are almost exclusively carried enmass as squad weapons. 10 Ratlings, 10 Scout Snipers, 10 Rangers. It doesn't feel right on any level. I can only understand from the practical view that snipers don't pair well with other infantry weapons and players don't like the feeling of squads with mixed-usage weapons. Although that didn't stop Devastators or Tacticals being exactly that.

The Forgeworld Elysian Sniper squad springs to mind - a special squad of 3 snipers and 3 spotters. That's exactly what sniper squads *should* be. RIP Forgeworld, you truly were everything 40k should be yet GW wasn't.


Honestly GW should split snipers into two groups.

Actual "sniper snipers" with single units or single unit and spotter

Sharpshooters. Squads of units with long range rifles that are better than regular units but not quite the same as actual snipers.


Right now GW lumps the two together and the sniper squads are closer to the kind of thing you'd seen from rifle squads in "Napoleonic" era combat. Which is fairly fitting that GW often does dip back into archaic wartime inspirations.





As for snipers taking out non-character units I think its not just having a case of "feels bad" to be on the receiving end. It's also a functional thing too - that rocket launcher in a bolter squad isn't just a "feels good to use"; its also a core part of making that unit shift from anti-infantry to anti-tank. It's role and identity on the table is to take out tanks. Take out the rocket launcher instantly and suddenly the unit is no longer anti-tank. Now that player has lost a key counter which could leave them in a situation where it snowballs. Two snipers take out a couple of rocket launchers in one turn and suddenly one player has zero counter to the opponents tanks. Now sniper and tank becomes the dominating meta.

That said I've always liked the whole "take out key unit and another in the squad just picks up the weapon" approach to special weapons/banners and so forth. Honestly its something I think makes sense in the setting and in real wartimes. You can also simulate it on the tabletop if you want with a simple. "If this model is killed, instead remove another model in the same squad and place this unit in its location" approach. Which could be an interesting way to work things. Though it can get a little messy when you've got several specialists in a squad (sergeant, banner, weapon) and the order of which replaces which. Or just flat out let the player choose if they want to have a warrior drop their banner for a gun or vis versa ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816886.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
Yeah it doesn't work quite so well with integrated weapons, which are probably at least as common as handheld weaponary in the 40k universe.

Snipers are definitely one of those things where it's really hard to balance them in a wargame.
Sniping the officers is kind of their whole shtique and it's what players expect out of their snipers. Set their officer-killing ability too low and players feel putout that their snipers can't snipe.
But then on the flipside you've got a game that focuses very heavily around the officers. They're supposed to be your centerpieces both in terms of how armys operate but also the visual and personality of your army. So actually sniping those officers out always feels lame and often 'unearned' for the player on the receiving end.

I know from having played Alphalegion in Horus Heresy, who basically just instantly snipe every officer, sergeant, and anyone else with ideas above their station with highly lethal instant-death weaponary it doesn't feel very fun!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816893.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
People don't envision snipers as "chips away" type units unless its against something huge like a Hive Tyrant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11816899.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters? GW just allowed a few more Vindicaire type snipers to be around? Like if Illic Nightspear and/or the Death Jester were roughly as good at sniping as the Vindicaire and other factions had their equivalents, would that be such a bad thing?

I'm not sure I mind the idea of having to be wary of where the enemy snipers are and making sure not to offer them too juicy a target.

Then again, it seems like the guys who *should* be vindicaire equivalents for some other factions are already squads instead (firesight marksmen, deathmarks, etc.) It's a weird disrespect for conservation of ninjutsu.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817007.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 Wyldhunt wrote:
Would it break the game if GW just allowed a few more Vindicaire type snipers to be around? Like if Illic Nightspear and/or the Death Jester were roughly as good at sniping as the Vindicaire and other factions had their equivalents, would that be such a bad thing?

I'm not sure I mind the idea of having to be wary of where the enemy snipers are and making sure not to offer them too juicy a target.

Then again, it seems like the guys who *should* be vindicaire equivalents for some other factions are already squads instead (firesight marksmen, deathmarks, etc.) It's a weird disrespect for conservation of ninjutsu.

Firesight Marksmen should not be Vindicare level. They're still just Fire Warriors-well trained and equipped, sure, but they're not ridiculously enhanced and whatnot like an Imperial Assassin is.

Deathmarks suffer from what all Necrons do-going off lore and even earlier editions, they should be individually much more powerful (and therefore, more expensive in points). But they've been nerfed over time by GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817009.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 kirotheavenger wrote:

Didn't he have a ridiculously strong AT super-penetrator round plenty capable of one-shotting Landraiders? Or did that only come in in 5th?


IIRC turbo penetrator was 4D6 AP but with no strength, so while it would on average glance a Land Raider, it was extremely unreliable, and odds of it actually killing the LR in one hit were very small.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817024.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
Would it break the game if GW just allowed a few more Vindicaire type snipers to be around? Like if Illic Nightspear and/or the Death Jester were roughly as good at sniping as the Vindicaire and other factions had their equivalents, would that be such a bad thing?

I'm not sure I mind the idea of having to be wary of where the enemy snipers are and making sure not to offer them too juicy a target.

Then again, it seems like the guys who *should* be vindicaire equivalents for some other factions are already squads instead (firesight marksmen, deathmarks, etc.) It's a weird disrespect for conservation of ninjutsu.

Firesight Marksmen should not be Vindicare level. They're still just Fire Warriors-well trained and equipped, sure, but they're not ridiculously enhanced and whatnot like an Imperial Assassin is.

Deathmarks suffer from what all Necrons do-going off lore and even earlier editions, they should be individually much more powerful (and therefore, more expensive in points). But they've been nerfed over time by GW.

I'm probably still under the influence of a short story I read forever ago where a firesight marksman got a convoy of vehicles to pause and then took out the target who mattered with drones afterwards. He's kind of an odd duck given that he's kind of a "squad"'s worth of drones being controlled by a single dude, but also those drones aren't proper models at the moment.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817032.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters?
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
Would it break the game if GW just allowed a few more Vindicaire type snipers to be around? Like if Illic Nightspear and/or the Death Jester were roughly as good at sniping as the Vindicaire and other factions had their equivalents, would that be such a bad thing?

I'm not sure I mind the idea of having to be wary of where the enemy snipers are and making sure not to offer them too juicy a target.

Then again, it seems like the guys who *should* be vindicaire equivalents for some other factions are already squads instead (firesight marksmen, deathmarks, etc.) It's a weird disrespect for conservation of ninjutsu.

Firesight Marksmen should not be Vindicare level. They're still just Fire Warriors-well trained and equipped, sure, but they're not ridiculously enhanced and whatnot like an Imperial Assassin is.

Deathmarks suffer from what all Necrons do-going off lore and even earlier editions, they should be individually much more powerful (and therefore, more expensive in points). But they've been nerfed over time by GW.

'Firesight Marksmen' Sniper Drone teams are advanced drones carrying advanced technology precision rifles guided by a an advanced tech sighting system. It wasn't that long ago they used hypervelocity rail rifles (now lore-nerfed to just plasma pulse sniper rifles).
Whereas the Vindicare is still a dude with a rifle firing comparatively primitive ammunition.

I think the output of any given sniper-team should be *roughly* comparable. The Vindicare can definitely lay claim as one of, if not the best, single sniping model in the game. But he's also just one dude. His output should be roughly equivalent, or even inferior, to small teams such as the Sniper Drone team.

Deathmarks similarly should have been perhaps a small team of 3 rather than a full squad of 10.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/818741/11817096.page GMT Should "Precision" allow you to target more than just characters? Depending on unit, one could be snipers, others sharpshooters. And wargear ability “spotter” could give a sharpshooter the ability to be a sniper for a shooting phase. Spotter could also give [IGNORE COVER] to the designated attack.
Some examples:
• Kasrkin/Aquilons/Kommandos/Krieg/Vespids/Exaction/Corsairs sniper would remain with its precision attacks. Similar units with only one sniper should keep it. Some probably need a buff, like the Corsair sniper. The D2 snipers would be more design to take out that heavy weapon, while D3 and D4, for support characters.
• Character snipers would be the ones design to kill actual leaders. Obviously, Vindicare is the king at this, but there are a couple more.
• Some precision attacks should totally be reworked or erased. Reiver squad have all precision attacks which seems odd, and there probably are more examples. I think I’d keep it only for their melee attacks. Find other way to buff and compensate.
• All sniper units would be more tricky
o Ratlings: I’d give precision to the fixer aka “sergeant”. Then, they’ll have a spotter (only in 10-ratling squad?), that can designate another ratling to have precision attacks.
o Aeldari Rangers. They’ll have a spotter, so only one precision attack. Wouldn’t be bad they get AP 2 snipers.
o Eliminators: honestly, I think they’re fine as it is. Maybe a small price increase if they prove too useful with picking key targets and not only charactes. Sergeant could still give spotter to someone else for that [IGNORE COVER].
o Deathmarks. not sure about this one. Maybe a "spotter" with better optics would do just fine. Or remove precision for the whole unit and make them excellent sharpshooters (AP3?) but more expensive


Some snipers probably should start doing D3+1 instead of D2? Or strength increased to 5. Otherwise, precision would be heavily nerfed when losing volumen of fire to snipe characters.
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