<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "AI music Yay or Nay??"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "AI music Yay or Nay??"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/95.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net AI music Yay or Nay?? AI generated music? Most of internet frown upon it.
There is loads of it automatic singer, grimdark tavern, the vox skull tales, nerdburglers.

I must say that I’ve filled my playlist with it.
I’m not ashamed I like AI music!

Have you got any other great artists?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823629.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI is slop]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823632.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
Nay nay nay.

So much nay, you’d think the Mongol Hordes were smashing up your data centre.

Art is a fundamental part of the human experience. It’s something intrinsic and unique to us. Art, be it audio or visual or a mix of the two, conveys something about that person’s life, their experiences, or concepts they want to share and explore with other humans.

Get your god damned machines out of our art. It has no place here. At all. It will be the death of innovation. Because it creates feth all. Just copies and rehashes and steals bits and pieces from existing works. All without paying a fething penny to the originator.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823643.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

ByggareBob wrote:
What’s your opinion on AI generated music? Most of internet frown upon it.
There is loads of it automatic singer, grimdark tavern, the vox skull tales, nerdburglers.

I must say that I’ve filled my playlist with it.
I’m not ashamed I like AI music!

Have you got any other great artists?

By definition, you haven't heard any great artists.

A galactic-scale Nay, and a pox on these "creators".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823652.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
I don't have a visceral aversion to them but I also don't love them just because they're AI, they're like anything else, some I like, some I don't.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823653.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
I have been enjoying some psychedelic rock, the instrumentals are very enjoyable. The lyrics are like a fever dream.

Which reminded me of Monster Magnet, their songs are something like a wizard throwing a party and after a while it becomes a cult.

Not all of it is that clever. I was served some "swamp-rock" which sounds like a a reimagined movie soundtrack but too commercial for me to really enjoy. It's not bad just not fantastic.

One of the positives about AI music, as I was told, and it could be wrong, is that ai music cannot be copyrighted. So clip what you like and do what ever you want with it.* ( Interesting if true.)

I don't love AI music but it can have it's place. And if it's trash then tell the creators it's trash.
I am not sure how much human involvement goes into generating these tracks.

Nothing I've heard will make my top 10 list. Mostly middle of the pack.

I don't see it replacing real bands ever.

If ai cannot commit seppuku then ai cannot create art.

* I draw off and on and have for years. I've done art from my groups D&D game sessions from time to time. The thought occurred to me that some Scooby Doo style animation would work really well with clip'd ai music.

There is a lot of AI "music" I wont touch with someone else's 10 foot pole. The 40K songs for example. It raises my blood pressure too much and not in a good way.

One problem I have with this stuff, the ai music, is that I feel like I am slipping into Alzheimer's or senile dementia because you will hear something that might be familiar but then it's all wrong. Like a really bad cover band.
Another stand out was by Skyebrows. The Elon's musk song. There's a video. The lyrics were clever. One bit was about Elon buying the sun. Which I found completely silly. I would sell him the sun. But the taxes... Yikes !

The nest closest thing that was entertaining, a song made from a comment section under a video about BBQ ribs. It was quite funny but aside from turning that into music I don't really feel like that qualifies as AI music as ,presumably, people left all of the comments used in that song.

In the end...

All bots must die. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823664.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI started so I can find music on youtube that's older.

Maybe AI music can "have its place" but right now its invading the place of real music. That drives out the potential for SO many creative people getting started. All those new musicians; new groups and bands that are now drowned in a sea of rehashed tunes done by AI.
The fact that finding new talent is going to be insanely hard is a huge blow; furthermore what monetizing there is - which might be just enough for many to keep a hobby going and so forth (the vast majority never make mega-bucks) is now diluted as well by AI.

That means the next generations of rising talent will end up working in supermarkets with their works hidden in a sea of AI rehashes. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823666.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI on music, has been using that site to, you guessed it, training their AI. Some people putting up files have been doctoring them in various ways. One guy replaced the singer with Homer Simpson for an entire album but never changed the meta data. Another person added more noise that it inaudible to the human ear but is a big block of data obscuring the actual song in data form. I'm all for it myself.

I don't really know how the new artists are going to compete. The world is just different now. The song by MC Front a lot comes to mind. The gist is that he isn't in the music business he's in the T shirt business, "go buy merch".

Not to mention all the marketing they will have to do for them selves.

Thank good ness for band camp I guess.

At least they can have live shows and even stream them now that that's a thing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823670.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI has absolutely nothing of.

I think of some of the greatest songs of all time and the talent and effort that has gone into them. The power behind music and how it has shaped the world.

I think of historic folk songs that have conserved little snippets of every day life from hundreds of years ago.

It's a miserable state of affairs to be even considering AI music. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823672.page GMT Re:AI music Yay or Nay?? AI covers of existing music (like the soundtrack from Donkey Kong Country done in synthwave or something). And even then, I prefer it when a real person goes and puts the work in to make something truly special.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823677.page GMT Re:AI music Yay or Nay??
Would you rather listen to 24 hours straight of AI music or 24 hours straight of Jared Leto's 40 Seconds to Mars?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823680.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
Sunday was experimental night. Well. Day. It’s kicked off at 4pm.

First band? You could see what they were trying, but I think the setup let them down. Drummer was using multiple mics and playing closer or further to a given one. But, space too small so the effect of it bouncing around didn’t work. Enjoyed it well enough.

Second band? Wake The Man. Synth Fantasy with a chap playing a Flute. Dakkanauts of a similar vintage would be put in mind of Clannad, specifically their theme to Robin of Sherwood. I loved it, and my Dad would’ve loved it. Top notch stuff, and not something that’s easy to find in the wild.

Third? Jimmy No Shoes. I didn’t get it. At all. All electronic noise. Was like being subject to your a-hole neighbour’s car alarm. We left at that point. Wee bit earlier because we didn’t want to subject ourselves to it. But also because it was dinner time and we were hungry.

AI music is a direct threat to that experience, and those venues. It will throttle the creative arts.

The alternative scene already struggles with an entirely indifferent radio and tv landscape that favours bland, banal mass produced tripe. It doesn’t need some tosser with internet access making things even worse.

Oh I’m sure AI has some place in the workplace. But we need to stop making it to replace humans and the human experience.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823681.page GMT Re:AI music Yay or Nay?? Nay in the strongest terms possible.

I am totally against "AI" in any artistic capacity. Emphatically so. Vehemently even.

Lathe Biosas wrote:
So, MDG, the question becomes thus...

Would you rather listen to 24 hours straight of AI music or 24 hours straight of Jared Leto's 40 Seconds to Mars?

Oh that's an easy answer, and it's Leto's band all the way.

Reason being, the band (and thus the band members) are physical things that I could if I so choose, go and view in the flesh and blood. And therein lies the advantage over AI music. I can go and see 30STM and am able to boo and heckle them and again, if I so choose, throw things at them. Like a shoe.
I can't do that with AI music or people who make AI music.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823682.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Dysartes wrote:

ByggareBob wrote:

Have you got any other great artists?

By definition, you haven't heard any great artists.

A galactic-scale Nay, and a pox on these "creators".

I beg to differ.
I consider myself to have a broad taste of music.
Everything from Herman’s Hermit, Luis Armstrong, slipknot, queen, hammerfall, infected mushroom, linking park, limp bizkit, NOFX, Hans Zimmerman, xzibit.
Hm think I covered the most musicstyles but I’m sure I got more in my mixlist.

Even if some of them use electronic instruments I still consider them as good and very much ”human” artists?

I don’t consider AI music to be in anyway better than them, but that doesn’t mean that i can’t like it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823684.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

ByggareBob wrote:

I don’t consider AI music to be in anyway better than them, but that doesn’t mean that i can’t like it?

The problem with a LOT of AI use in creative arts (and also workplace) is that its not just a case of liking or disliking what it constructs.
It's about stepping back from the purely personal experience and realising that the collective use and engagement with something like AI music directly results in the career potential for many people being wiped out.

If you're listening to AI Synth every evening and if youtube is flooded with it (because AI can spit it out as fast as you can pay for tokens) what happens to the real person doing real synth music? The kind of person who doesn't work for a multi-million music producer? They get lost; their music unheard - heck they'll even have trouble proving that their stuff is real and not just more AI.
The result is that the time they invest in learning that skill yields little to no social nor financial benefit for them. With zero gains they might well never share their talent with the world; with drastically reduced financial chances they might well never take the step on working on their talent to turn a skill into a job to put food on the table. Now they become a shelf stacker at a supermarket and the world is the lesser for not having them develop their talent.

It's about realising that AI will take opportunities from all those people; which means we get no new creatives. It means losing generations of talent. With many places like bars/pubs and such also shutting down and with live events costing more and more - they don't even have the same option to perform in real life to mitigate the loss of places like youtube to growing potential talent.

Also AI isn't some small niche thing - it already swamps most creative websites. Displate is smothered in the stuff which means even if you want to find and buy a real bit of art from someone - its very challenging to do so. Youtube throws up hundreds of AI created music in seconds and good luck telling real from AI if you find a newer channel that isn't older than AI

Sure you can enjoy what AI creates, but you have to step back and respect that what it creats comes at a cost far greater than the token(s) spent on it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823691.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Overread wrote:

ByggareBob wrote:

I don’t consider AI music to be in anyway better than them, but that doesn’t mean that i can’t like it?

Well written, I totally agree with every single sentence.
Still I wonder. Remove the monetizing from ai generated content.
Then it would be fans honoring their interest?
Real artist would then still be able to make a living out of it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

warhead01 wrote:
Yay and also Nay.

One problem I have with this stuff, the ai music, is that I feel like I am slipping into Alzheimer's or senile dementia because you will hear something that might be familiar but then it's all wrong. Like a really bad cover band.
Another stand out was by Skyebrows. The Elon's musk song. There's a video. The lyrics were clever. One bit was about Elon buying the sun. Which I found completely silly. I would sell him the sun. But the taxes... Yikes !
.

With that I can agree.

A lot of the Al generated music sounds the same. Even so same that its hard to tell artist apart if their musicstyle are alike.
But then it comes to what you listen to in the music.
As for my self i listen most for the lyrics and stories they tell.
Cry for the slave - grimdark tavern
Rylanor's stand - Sanguinious soundscape
The old mans testimony - The vox skull last stand of cadia - elyn Nightingale
The music is quite generic but the lyrics are in my opinion interesting. In the same whay I like a good story/movie/book/image that tell me a story.
If it was only written text, would you be able to tell it from a human?
I would think so, but that doesn't remove the possibility that it's a good story?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Olthannon wrote:
Music, like with all art is about soul and feeling, which AI has absolutely nothing of.

I think of some of the greatest songs of all time and the talent and effort that has gone into them. The power behind music and how it has shaped the world.

I think of historic folk songs that have conserved little snippets of every day life from hundreds of years ago.

It's a miserable state of affairs to be even considering AI music.

Yes I agree, the greatest songs ever made is of course made by humans. And the lyrics they contain that preserv those snippets of music is part of what makes the music.
With that said 1 wonder if someone who cant play instruments, sing or any other thing cant write good lyrics in the same way some of the greatest artist have done. Shouldn't that person be able to publish that "gift" to the rest of the world because part of it was Al generated?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just this weekend, I went to my local Metal/Alternative Bar. They had bands on all the long weekend.

AI music is a direct threat to that experience, and those venues. It will throttle the creative arts.

The alternative scene already struggles with an entirely indifferent radio and tv landscape that favours bland, banal mass produced tripe. It doesn’t need some tosser with internet access making things even worse.

Oh I’m sure AI has some place in the workplace. But we need to stop making it to replace humans and the human experience.

I love a good live consert!
The best ive been to so far is The streets at Roskilde 2005 hmm, and in Flames in Gothemburg
And Al music cant compete with those at all. Real music beats Al generated everytime you compare them. Do we have to compare them though?
And yes, I also believe that she need stricter regulations to promote real music instead.
As I said before in tho thread, I believe it would be good to make all ai generated media non profitable, forbidden for commercial use.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Many of you talk about the monetization.
Lets say that we by law forbade Al music to be commercial in any way, that all the money in it disappear.
Then the persons creating the music would do so of pure fan commitment.
Would you say that the story told by that music doesn't have heart?
And doesn’t disserve to be told?

I think that if a creator lay enough time on an Al song with all the stuff that needs to be made to publish the music (polishing and stuff?) it might be considered as human made?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823694.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? 1) You have to be able to identify - to ah igh degree of accuracy - AI from real created content of a medium (in this case music).

2) You have to then apply that system to key websites, like youtube, to allow for filtering

3) You have then HEAVILY promote people using the "real" creative websites/filters/content over the AI created.

Removing AI created content from having royalties; payments; copyright and so forth is a step in the right direction. However the problem is working out what is AI from what is human made. And good luck if someone decides to use AI to make something and then remake it in another program so any baked-in identifiers are lost. Eg use AI to make music; the use an electronic music maker to copy the notes over.

AI is opening a pandora's box of problems society is not ready to deal with. Personally I feel like the best solution is either to restrict AI use directly (since it requires big business to facilitate you can in theory throttle it at the big end and simply restrict its use with laws); or raise the functional price of tokens to a point where its simply unaffordable except for larger businesses. At which point if you couple that to no copyright, no earning potential etc... then you destroy the casual market for its use.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823695.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? almost see the point of AI generated music for on-demand stuff like, for example, mood music for a gaming session, if not for the fact that there are plenty of places to get that sort of stuff made by actual artists, and often for free.

Beyond that, there is so much good music out there by artists that I will support because I love their work. AI doesn't deserve support, because it's not an artist, and is actively damaging multiple industries, not to mention poisoning the internet.

So, no. Not doing AI music. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823703.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI music on principle. A lot of it sounds good with good beats and stuff. But after you've listened to a bit of it, it all starts to sound very formulaic and samey.
Although I'm sure if the prompter spent more than three seconds typing out their prompt you could get better quality music.

The huge problem with AI music (and wider videos/whatever) is that it is absolutely swamping the creative platforms now.
It's basically impossible to find new music in a given genre because there's just mountains lazy AI content pushed out for easy money. *That's* as much the problem.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823705.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823705.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI songs are good, if the 'creator' asked for something specific. I've heard a Dune-related spice harvesting song as if written by The Worzels.

But, the actual creators of the referenced and re-interpreted music get no credit.

The content can be pleasant enough, but the ethics of it stink. The amount of resources that get used to spit this stuff out, while the credit is all in one direction, is abysmal. Get a local band to knock out some real music, and let them publish it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823709.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
Even if you don't want to make a playlist yourself with the wealth of artists available, people make public playlists on every platform where music is streamed.

AI generated stuff doesn't even deserve the title of music. It's lazy and built on the theft of others work.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823711.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
I've never intentionally sought out AI music, although listened to a bit by accident. I must confess that "I s*** my pants in the middle of Aldi" has gotten stuck in my head though, and I'm pretty sure that is AI slop.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823716.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI with his or her own work exclusively and use that as a tool alongside their own mixing process.

Generative AI as an artistic tool used in a creative process, NOT TRAINED ON OTHER PEOPLES WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION, is fine by me. As long as it ends up only as a minor component in the end result.
As a means to replace a creative process is not fine. That's just lazy. Pick up a pencil or something.

So typing a prompt in a generator and calling your self an artist, for that is a big NO in my book.

Before anyone gets any ideas. Yes, I used to draw a lot by hand in the past. Nowadays I mostly use Adobe Illustrator for my work or designing stuff for my modeling projects. Yes this also involves copy and pasting bits text I find on the internet. I used hand traced and auto trace on some stock images several times for personal use as well. I never called myself an artist for that. Unless I made the pencil sketch, scanned that onto the computer and trace and colored that in Illustrator.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823738.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

warhead01 wrote:
Yay and also Nay.

Same.

Recently had one sneak into a playlist on youtube. It was kind of a banger, so I didn't mind, until it credited a singer who it very clearly wasn't(it was country, artist was Zach Bryan). Probably wouldn't have gotten into my playlist without it having that singers name attached to it. I think a few more have popped up, so I've been listening to older songs that I know are genuine.

Going to be interesting times for artists across the whole spectrum of entertainment.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823742.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
Some of it is has been flat and lifeless. One channel had Oderus Urungus doing covers but they weren't fantastic.

I also think ai entertainment should be recognized for what it is. Content.

Content to me is not in the same basket as art. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823743.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI.

Every time I go to paint a new army - the first thing I do is take to Google Images or Youtube tutorials. I view and watch a whole bunch of what other people have done before. Some I will draw inspiration from, others I'll literally just try and do exactly that same thing myself.

Is AI any different? Morally or practically?
I suppose there is a practical and moral difference in that if you asked me how I came up with my paint scheme, I could tell you who inspired me. I say only "could" because often no one specific person gave me the exact idea, and if they did I likely don't remember who it was.

The future AI brings terrifies me
But honestly artist rights aren't the centre of my concern. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823744.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
Artists' livelihoods are what I'm more worried about. Without future artists, AI will only be able to feed off other AI-generated content. There'll come a time when AI is almost all you'll be able to find, when so much of it saturates the 'market'.

We already see the amount an artist gets paid falling, based on per-play stats.

This doesn't only apply to music, but a lot of industries.
"AI is going to take our jobs" is happening.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823745.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI taking our jobs is *absolutely* what I'm concerned about.
I think parallels with the industrial revolution are quite disgustingly apparent tbh, and it did *not* make the lives of the workers any better.

But AI doing the jobs isn't necessarily the problem by itself. The problem is the societal expectation that you need to work for your worth.
IMO the ideal situation is for AI to do my job... but I get to keep my salary. Even double it if AI does the job twice as good as I do.
But that's not what's gonna happen.

Heavily automated machines in the Industrial Revolution set worker's rights back centuries and forced them into dangeroud and squalid working conditions as the robber barons entirely controlled access to work and therefore money and therefore food and life itself.
Even today we largely only see the industrial revolution as good for workers rights because we've exported all these abuses out to India and China et al.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823751.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI has already taken jobs; smothered creative workspaces and its not even a mature technology that works all that well. It's done that in less than half a decade. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823754.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Overread wrote:
Also lets keep in mind the Industrial Revolution was a LOT slower. AI has already taken jobs; smothered creative workspaces and its not even a mature technology that works all that well. It's done that in less than half a decade.

It is also a very obvious bubble that hasn't popped yet, and generally does a much worse job than the humans it has replaced.

I'm expecting some kind of messy realignment with reality in the nearish future once the massive overvaluing stops being sustainable with marketing spin alone. It won't disappear for sure, but we can expect less prevalence.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823756.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI is inevitable tbh.
It's possible to be both a bubble and the future. The Internet for example created a bubble, but it currently defines the world as we know it.
I suspect AI will be the same. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823758.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI?” No. Work with others who can sing and play. Do you think every artist writes their own songs? Do you think every songwriter is a performer? Stop inventing BS to justify your sociopathic selfishness. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823762.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I just want to come back to that argument, “What if a person can’t sing or play an instrument but can write lyrics? Shouldn’t it be okay to use AI?” No. Work with others who can sing and play. Do you think every artist writes their own songs? Do you think every songwriter is a performer? Stop inventing BS to justify your sociopathic selfishness.

I don't think this argument is very fair. We've had tools to make creative processes easier, which puts the creative ability in more people's hands for years.

Digital cameras put photography into everyone's hands to the point that everyone has a high quality camera in their pocket. Is it unethical to put the photo-developers out of their jobs?

I think AI putting a particular quality of art in the hands of people who otherwise couldn't access it is a good thing.
Because let's be honest, no one was going to get paid to paint a picture of Shrimp Jesus.

For example I use AI to pretty up battle photos a bit.
For most people AI is kinda a neat tool to play with but not anything they'd pay for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823767.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

kirotheavenger wrote:

I think AI putting a particular quality of art in the hands of people who otherwise couldn't access it is a good thing.
Because let's be honest, no one was going to get paid to paint a picture of Shrimp Jesus.

You clearly don't spend enough time on the internet because that's exactly something people do pay for.

And using AI to generate images or music doesn't suddenly make you an artist or a musician. I can't play any instruments, you know what I do? I play Guitar Hero, not use a thief algorithm to steal for me and make slop.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823771.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

kirotheavenger wrote:
I do believe that AI is inevitable tbh.
It's possible to be both a bubble and the future. The Internet for example created a bubble, but it currently defines the world as we know it.
I suspect AI will be the same.

AI is here to stay, but generative AI is far more limited in scope than it is being sold as. It just creates the illusion of being able to do a lot of things.

It is probably also a dead-end due to the requirements for the massive volumes of training material required, which get less effective if they include AI output.

The technology is fantastic for creating pattern-recognition programs in applications where a pattern needs to be reliably recognised, like scanning histology slides for cancer*. It is also great at automating low-quality-to-mediocre slop content, which is the most visible use and one which is more of a blight on society than a boon. It can be good at summarising text, but personally I've seen poor results with this the moment anything technical is included, because generative AI doesn't understand anything (it only recognises and regurgitates patterns) and doesn't know what is and isn't vital data.

Because it doesn't do a good enough job at most things to warrant being a paid service, on the whole, there is going to be a real crunch when the actual value collides with the massive costs of training AI even to the mediocre level it is at currently.

I don't think whatever the big AI of the future is will be a generative AI derivative (although it may include a component of it), because it is just too inefficient. If humans relied solely on pattern recognition, we'd be far, far more stupid.

*This particular form of AI is being done far more ethically and usefully than the large language models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823773.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

It's only one side of this debate that ever seems to get nasty and personal.

AI has never ghosted me after taking my money
AI has never "forgotten" a commission
AI has never had a depressive streak and paused working for six months

Forgive me for not giving a damn about an artist's livelihood when artists have done all of those things. To me, personally. I don't need to "invent BS".

Is it "sociopathic selfishness"? Maybe, but why should I care about the environmental impact of my AI use when I don't care about the environmental impact of literally any other activity I undertake?
I play games with little plastic models, I order from Amazon, I fly internationally for my job. If I don't care about my impact for any of those activities why would AI use be the one thing where it impacts my decision making? If that's sociopathic selfishness then at least my sociopathy is consistent.

Is music inherently better because it's made by a person? For some people, sure. Me? I don't care about live experiences, I care about the end result that hits my ears, some of which is AI generated and I enjoy, some of it is AI generated and I don't. Some of it is made by humans and I enjoy, some of it is made by humans and I don't enjoy.

Is music inherently more moral because it's made by a human? Depends, any fans of Lostprophets or Gary Glitter here? Everyone's all "Support the artists" until they remember who some of those artists are.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823781.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI, and then made an AI music video. It took them about 6 months with some pretty long hours and research to go from the initial idea to the final product. They had to learn a lot of technical expertise to get the final product to do what they wanted it to do. It was MUCH harder than I expected it to be.

However, it was still shorter and cheaper than it would have taken to master the musical and video elements necessary for them to do it in a traditional way. Plus, all the other musicians and professionals they would need to pull it off.

My final verdict was that it was harder and more artistic work than expected. However, it was still a shortcut that was not worth the theft, societal issues, and environmental degradation.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823799.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AI generated. Citing hallucinated decisions and precedent, laws and regulations.

Have you any idea how much that adds to my workload? Do you understand the man hours it takes to go through that slop, let alone to explain to the sender they’ve sent utter bunk, and have to point out exactly what isn’t even remotely a thing. Or that hey, US law isn’t relevant in the UK and so on and so forth?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823805.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m now getting 100+ page documents at work. AI generated. Citing hallucinated decisions and precedent, laws and regulations.

Have you any idea how much that adds to my workload? Do you understand the man hours it takes to go through that slop, let alone to explain to the sender they’ve sent utter bunk, and have to point out exactly what isn’t even remotely a thing. Or that hey, US law isn’t relevant in the UK and so on and so forth?

In Florida, you now have to sign all court documents, stating that you did not use AI in the creation (including research) of the document.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823808.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Makes me wonder, why not have a 3 strikes and you're out policy. Fine three faults and just kick it back with next to no explanation. Or at least just minimal guidance. Track who is sending what and send the offenders names and maybe they get

... replaced. ?

Building better worlds right.

My step son teaches collage classes and tell his students that previous students who have used ai didn't like their grades and likely neither will they. Knowing that makes me happy. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11823853.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Overread wrote:
The thing is
1) You have to be able to identify - to ah igh degree of accuracy - AI from real created content of a medium (in this case music).

Find by AI?

Fight fire with fire

Seriously though, you are correct.
The ai development will make it harder to tell a difference but as the race in WW2 with tank armor and anti-tank weapons, I believe that the only thing that could evolve fast enough to spot AI works also is AI

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirotheavenger wrote:

I think parallels with the industrial revolution are quite disgustingly apparent tbh, and it did *not* make the lives of the workers any better.

But AI doing the jobs isn't necessarily the problem by itself. The problem is the societal expectation that you need to work for your worth.
IMO the ideal situation is for AI to do my job... but I get to keep my salary. Even double it if AI does the job twice as good as I do.
But that's not what's gonna happen.

Heavily automated machines in the Industrial Revolution set worker's rights back centuries and forced them into dangeroud and squalid working conditions as the robber barons entirely controlled access to work and therefore money and therefore food and life itself.
Even today we largely only see the industrial revolution as good for workers rights because we've exported all these abuses out to India and China et al.

This points out the biggest concern everybody should have!
Wether they ar into ai or not.
kirotheavenger Are correct.

One interesting question is what work we as humans will do considering what jobs the workers during the Industrial Revolution was forced to take?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824027.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824027.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Charax wrote:
AI has never ghosted me after taking my money
AI has never "forgotten" a commission
AI has never had a depressive streak and paused working for six months

Forgive me for not giving a damn about an artist's livelihood when artists have done all of those things. To me, personally. I don't need to "invent BS".

So, you believe that all artists should lose their jobs because some screwed you over?

That's pathetic, and definitely sociopathic behaviour. I'm glad you've admitted that.

Yeah, any business can screw people over: that's been happening since Ea-Nasir. But to then use that as justification for "all artists should lose their livelihoods, and we stole all of their work"? Utterly unhinged behaviour.

Is it "sociopathic selfishness"? Maybe, but why should I care about the environmental impact of my AI use when I don't care about the environmental impact of literally any other activity I undertake?

Plastic models are far less problematic than the wide-scale use of AI - and as for the rest, again, that's just sad.

Everyone's all "Support the artists" until they remember who some of those artists are.

Simple solution: don't support *those* artists. Did that not cross your mind? Or were you just looking for an excuse not to care?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824030.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824030.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

warhead01 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m now getting 100+ page documents at work. AI generated. Citing hallucinated decisions and precedent, laws and regulations.

Have you any idea how much that adds to my workload? Do you understand the man hours it takes to go through that slop, let alone to explain to the sender they’ve sent utter bunk, and have to point out exactly what isn’t even remotely a thing. Or that hey, US law isn’t relevant in the UK and so on and so forth?

... replaced. ?

Building better worlds right.

My step son teaches collage classes and tell his students that previous students who have used ai didn't like their grades and likely neither will they. Knowing that makes me happy.

Sadly we’re a statutory body, and people have a right to come to us,

We can and have banned people in the past. But it’s rare, and is usually due to abusive behaviour.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824031.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Sgt_Smudge 819011 11824030 wrote:So, you believe that all artists should lose their jobs because some screwed you over?

That's pathetic, and definitely sociopathic behaviour. I'm glad you've admitted that.

I think this kind of response is unhelpful to anyone.

Firstly, you're jumping straight to some pretty serious insults. No one has ever changed their mind for a strong enough insult. You just make yourself look unreasonable and justify the other person's opinion.

Secondly, it's just a foolish stance to take. Your stance is tantamount to saying people have the right to work their passion and therefore someone has the responsibility to employ them as such.
But who? Who should be paying artists? Am I obligated to pay someone to photoshop my game pictures? Is it unethical for me to edit them with AI? Is it unethical for me to play around with photoshop?

I also just don't think we can stop AI, it's quality is coming on leaps and bounds. If it's going to do the jobs better than people (and doing an artist's job instantly and freely is just a level of convenience that cannot be matched by a human) then it will be replacing people.
I think we should be focusing our energy on advocating for ethical AI use and a post-scarcity society. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824055.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

kirotheavenger wrote:

Sgt_Smudge 819011 11824030 wrote:So, you believe that all artists should lose their jobs because some screwed you over?

That's pathetic, and definitely sociopathic behaviour. I'm glad you've admitted that.

I think this kind of response is unhelpful to anyone.

Neither is wanting AI to screw over all artists because of some bad commissions, but sure, call out one and not the other.

Firstly, you're jumping straight to some pretty serious insults. No one has ever changed their mind for a strong enough insult. You just make yourself look unreasonable and justify the other person's opinion.

Counterpoint: the shark was already jumped by the poster for saying "Forgive me for not giving a damn about an artist's livelihood when artists have done all of those things.", and then in their own words, admitting that maybe their behaviour was "sociopathic selfishness". They're the one who embraced that insult, not me. I'm just agreeing with that.

I fail to see how calling out the foolishness of that poster justified their opinion in any way.

Secondly, it's just a foolish stance to take. Your stance is tantamount to saying people have the right to work their passion and therefore someone has the responsibility to employ them as such.
But who? Who should be paying artists? Am I obligated to pay someone to photoshop my game pictures? Is it unethical for me to edit them with AI? Is it unethical for me to play around with photoshop?

No? That's not what I'm claiming at all.

I said that if someone doesn't appreciate the art that those artists do, then "don't support *those* artists". I didn't advocate that artists *need* to be employed. What I did advocate for was that if you want art, do it yourself, or get an artist* to do it.

*Artist refers to anyone who creates art. They don't need to have gone to a creative college or been in practice for years - if you edited a picture in photoshop (not AI), then your part in that contribution was artistic, and you are an artist. Now, if that picture was stolen, then you're still an artist, but also a thief. AI art, because it has absolutely no original or creative endeavour, is *only* theft.

Art is available to everyone. If you want to improve the quality of it, you can practice at your art. If you don't want to risk someone screwing you over, do it yourself. That doesn't include using theft tools to do it.

I also just don't think we can stop AI, it's quality is coming on leaps and bounds.

AI only continues to be unstoppable if people continue to use it. If everyone were to reject its use, I promise, it would stop. It just requires people to actually commit to stopping using it, instead of saying "we can't stop it".

If it's going to do the jobs better than people (and doing an artist's job instantly and freely is just a level of convenience that cannot be matched by a human) then it will be replacing people.
I think we should be focusing our energy on advocating for ethical AI use and a post-scarcity society.

If AI should be replacing anything a human does, it should be replacing the menial labour parts of our lives, not the creative. And, let's not forget, the only reason AI can do an artist's job instantly and "freely" (ignoring the staggering environmental cost) is because it steals from them. If I took someone else's art that had already been made, and passed it off as my own, I didn't create it "instantly".

Hell, I don't even oppose analytical AI. But if generative AI solved all it's ethical problems, maybe I wouldn't have a problem with that either. Those ethical factors include:
- Energy consumption
- Drive for profit
- Theft of art and IP
- Misinformation
- Exploitative content
to name a few. But until those are resolved, we should not accept generative AI. These were issues which were identified over half a decade ago during the creation of GPT-3, and were ignored. The best time to halt development of AI was then. The next best is now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824069.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
I've never felt such visceral disgust towards a new technology in my life.

I look forward to the actual monetary cost of token usage becoming clear and people dropping the tech as they have to pay the actual price for it rather than the current investor subsidised loss-leader version.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824071.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Hell, I don't even oppose analytical AI. But if generative AI solved all it's ethical problems, maybe I wouldn't have a problem with that either. Those ethical factors include:
- Energy consumption
- Drive for profit
- Theft of art and IP
- Misinformation
- Exploitative content
to name a few.

I find it interesting that you don't list unemployment of white collar workers in there. Why is undercutting the enployment of artists so unethical but not anyone else?
AI also doesn't stop anyone doing art. In fact it empowers them to create art greater than they could otherwise. The only art that AI stops is it undercuts your ability to *sell* art, which is a whole different thing. If you personally enjoy oil painting you are just as at liberty to do so in a world of AI as you were before.
AI is a tool like any other. When digital cameras came out you could just as easily have been there yelling about how developing film was an integral part of photography and digital was a simply inferior machine product.

I also don't buy the "theft" argument. Every human creative ever has looked at and drawn inspiration from what has come before. Sometimes to the point of literally copying it as closely as possible.

I also disagree that we can stop AI. As you so rightly pointed out, AI is heavily subsidised by the tech giants right now. Because AI isn't for us, it's for them. They're coming for our jobs, and none of us get a vote on our own employment.
Levelling your anger that some Average Joe that just wants a picture of his OC without the talent to draw more than a stickman, the desire to wait a decade in practicing, or the money to throw at an artist, is just a complete misdirection of your energy and misunderstanding of where the ethics lie. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824103.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

kirotheavenger wrote:

I find it interesting that you don't list unemployment of white collar workers in there. Why is undercutting the enployment of artists so unethical but not anyone else?
AI also doesn't stop anyone doing art. In fact it empowers them to create art greater than they could otherwise

The lack of mentioning AI replacing workers in other sectors is likely purely a function of this thread focusing on AI Music; which has spilled a bit into general art replacement.
However yes AI is coming for customer support; fastfood workers; coding; lawyers - basically people have thrown AI at any role which in some way uses a computer or can use a computer. Couple AI to machinery and you can throw most manufacture on there as well.

Artists are not special, its just the focus of this thread.

Also AI doesn't allow someone with zero artistic skill to become an artist. It allows them to become a prompter, which is not artistic skill. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824105.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? Unless you want to define art as specifically human made, but then you're arguing photographers aren't artists.
I'm certainly not arguing prompting is of equivalent calibre to something like a painter, but I think it is largely irrelevant to the argument. If I want a pretty picture of X, AI enables me to obtain something better, faster, and/or cheaper than I could have achieved myself or commissioned.
Whether or not prompting makes you an artist is entirely immaterial to whether or not it's ethical to use AI image gen

And then if you personally believe that art is materially improved by a human touch, you are absolutely free to continue doing so yourself.
I don't see the reason or value in shaming others for doing so.

As I mentioned earlier, Joe Schmoe getting an AI portrait of their OC character is not the problem.
The problem is the barrage of money hungry AI slop, AI replacement of workers, and also the 'death of fact' with AI videos and pictures creating disinformation. None of these are affected by shaming Joe Schmoe.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824133.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

kirotheavenger wrote:

As I mentioned earlier, Joe Schmoe getting an AI portrait of their OC character is not the problem.
The problem is the barrage of money hungry AI slop, AI replacement of workers, and also the 'death of fact' with AI videos and pictures creating disinformation. None of these are affected by shaming Joe Schmoe.

You realise that Joe getting an AI portrait using an AI service IS part of the Money Hungry AI slop.
It's also means that Joe won't now go and pay Bob to make that portrait of his character; or buy the character portrait pack of 20 portraits that Jane made and adapt to use one of them. That means Bob and Jane now have directly less income because Joe is now giving that money to AI. Heck it means that the website Bob and Jane use to sell their art is now flooded with thousands of prompter-artists who can spit out art as fast as AI can make it. So long as tokens are cheap/free they'll spam those sites like crazy; even when tokens go up; so long as their barrage of art generates enough sales to cover tokens - they'll keep going.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824144.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Overread wrote:

kirotheavenger wrote:

As I mentioned earlier, Joe Schmoe getting an AI portrait of their OC character is not the problem.
The problem is the barrage of money hungry AI slop, AI replacement of workers, and also the 'death of fact' with AI videos and pictures creating disinformation. None of these are affected by shaming Joe Schmoe.

But this is good for Joe as Joe has saved a significant chunk of money. Joe probably doesn't have that much oney. Also, a lot of the images and stuff people generate isn't stuff they'd pay money for. It's low level stuff that would largely have just not been made otherwise.
Remember AI companies are pretty open about the fact that very few users are even willing to spend a small amount on AI subscriptions. The amount of money you'd have to shell out to get a picture quality equivalent to AI would buy you probably *years* of AI subscription. Artists really aren't losing much money to AI.
This is basically the "stealing bread from the mouths of the poor" argument of the 1800s when the wealthy would be expected to pay servants to do any menial task, except you're applying it to *everyone* whether they have the money or not. It's silly.

. Heck it means that the website Bob and Jane use to sell their art is now flooded with thousands of prompter-artists who can spit out art as fast as AI can make it. So long as tokens are cheap/free they'll spam those sites like crazy; even when tokens go up; so long as their barrage of art generates enough sales to cover tokens - they'll keep going.

This is the real problem, and it's got nothing to do with normal people doing normal stuff with AI.
Companies like Etsy absolutely need to seriously crack down, which needs the help of AI companies to properly encode 'watermarks' into their generated images. Which we're already starting to see, but governments need to be taking action. Although therein lies another problem - the internet is exploding in relevance to our lives and it's little better than international maritime waters, it's a lawless wild west. I hope the UN could take a break and do something useful in establishing good and strong international internet regulations. Although I have little hope such an international treaty system could ever keep pace with developments.
But the point is shaming Joe Schmoe for not paying struggling isn't addressing the real issue. In fact it's worse, it's diverting attention away from the real issues and putting the blame on people with little to no control over any of it, just because they're easy to reach. It's like paper straws all over again. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824150.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? AFAIK all of the companies make a loss on each use of the technology even for subscription users. There might be some cases where LLM is actually making moeny but for the most part it's burning massive amounts of it.

So Joe is really getting a subsidised access to a service in the "destroy the existing industry" move as we've seen with other silicon valley ideas like Uber, which then later jack the price up when they've gotten rid of the other options. Personally, I think it will fail this time, because the output of the LLM is so ephemeral and low in value.

They are hoping they can simultaneously create more demand for the services (dependency would be better than demand) and reduce the price per token. I'm skeptical they'll be able to get the price down that low, because the methods used are so incredibly hardware and energy intensive. It seems thermodynamically impossible for them to overcome the cooling problems they have given how hot they run the processing units, and running them that hot wears them out really rapidly requiring a replacement rate that is really crazy.

And of course, all this extra energy is being used mostly for pointless slop, and is probably the absolute dumbest reason to accelerate global warming that could ever have been conceived. I'm genuinely blown away by how people have jumped on board with this given how trendy it was to be protesting for Fridays for Future a few years ago.

So I expect the price of token usage to go up significantly in the not too distant future, and when that happens I expect we'll start to see the LLM bubble popping.

I expect the tech ghouls behind the scenes will make off with massive bank (because they know this is coming) and average people will be left footing the bill as usual (especially in areas with loads of data centres) and the tech will stick around and likely be used for lots of unpleasant and nefarious purposes by those who can afford the token uses.

Whole thing is massively dystopian imo, and I'm having nothing to do with it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824156.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Da Boss wrote:
At the moment AFAIK all of the companies make a loss on each use of the technology even for subscription users. There might be some cases where LLM is actually making moeny but for the most part it's burning massive amounts of it.

So Joe is really getting a subsidised access to a service in the "destroy the existing industry" move as we've seen with other silicon valley ideas like Uber, which then later jack the price up when they've gotten rid of the other options. Personally, I think it will fail this time, because the output of the LLM is so ephemeral and low in value.

They are hoping they can simultaneously create more demand for the services (dependency would be better than demand) and reduce the price per token. I'm skeptical they'll be able to get the price down that low, because the methods used are so incredibly hardware and energy intensive. It seems thermodynamically impossible for them to overcome the cooling problems they have given how hot they run the processing units, and running them that hot wears them out really rapidly requiring a replacement rate that is really crazy.

And of course, all this extra energy is being used mostly for pointless slop, and is probably the absolute dumbest reason to accelerate global warming that could ever have been conceived. I'm genuinely blown away by how people have jumped on board with this given how trendy it was to be protesting for Fridays for Future a few years ago.

So I expect the price of token usage to go up significantly in the not too distant future, and when that happens I expect we'll start to see the LLM bubble popping.

I expect the tech ghouls behind the scenes will make off with massive bank (because they know this is coming) and average people will be left footing the bill as usual (especially in areas with loads of data centres) and the tech will stick around and likely be used for lots of unpleasant and nefarious purposes by those who can afford the token uses.

Whole thing is massively dystopian imo, and I'm having nothing to do with it.

I agree with all of that, I don't think AI is going to end well for anyone (except the 'epstein class') how it's currently being handled.

My points in this thread is just that that isn't Joe Schmoe's fault and there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of tech giant subsidized tools whilst they're here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824161.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
But hey, let's not have empathy for the people actively losing their livelihoods. As long as Average Joe gets his profile pic where he looks like a Pixar character.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824183.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

Kiroththeavenger wrote:My points in this thread is just that that isn't Joe Schmoe's fault and there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of tech giant subsidized tools whilst they're here.

Please see my earlier comment about 100+ page submissions full of entirely made up citations, laws, regulations, rules and decisions that plague my professional life.

Maybe there it’s, understandably, folk not learning how to ask an open question and instead tasking whichever AI without checking its accuracy.

But, it is a dangerous tool. And right now, a spectacular source of BS and disinformation.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824186.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824186.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

It depends on me. If it's someone who actually wrote the song and then is using a Vocaloid to do the actual singing, or for dramatic Dwarven war cries ( that you wrote yourself) in the background, yay. If you're talking fully AI generated music using only prompts, nay.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824277.page GMT Re:AI music Yay or Nay??

kirotheavenger wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Hell, I don't even oppose analytical AI. But if generative AI solved all it's ethical problems, maybe I wouldn't have a problem with that either. Those ethical factors include:
- Energy consumption
- Drive for profit
- Theft of art and IP
- Misinformation
- Exploitative content
to name a few.

I find it interesting that you don't list unemployment of white collar workers in there.

"to name a few".
Please read what you are replying to.

Second, this thread is about AI music. Forgive me for focusing on the topic of the thread.

Why is undercutting the enployment of artists so unethical but not anyone else?

Did I say that? Did I ever say that AI was only a threat to artists?

AI also doesn't stop anyone doing art.

Yes, it does - aside from the future wide-scale level of people losing their safety of living due to the environmental impacts, readily available AI provides encouragement of people to simply plug in a prompt and generate slop, as opposed to picking up a pen and making their own. Full prevention, no - but it certainly disencourages it.

In fact it empowers them to create art greater than they could otherwise.

No, it does not. AI isn't empowering, unless you consider theft to be an empowering act.

The only art that AI stops is it undercuts your ability to *sell* art, which is a whole different thing.

Because god forbid artists be paid for their labour.

AI is a tool like any other.

Simply incorrect. When I pick up a pen or paintbrush or instrument, I am not actively draining litres and litres of water. I am not wholesale stealing material from another artist (or, if I am, I am liable to be prosecuted for plagiarism). I am *producing* something: AI does not produce anything by reheated slop.

When digital cameras came out you could just as easily have been there yelling about how developing film was an integral part of photography and digital was a simply inferior machine product.

Digital cameras didn't actively steal from other forms of media, and have nowhere near the environmental and ethcal impacts.

I also don't buy the "theft" argument. Every human creative ever has looked at and drawn inspiration from what has come before. Sometimes to the point of literally copying it as closely as possible.

Drawing inspiration and attempting to recreate is not the same as literally *taking the work from someone else*. No work exists in a vacuum, but AI has no original input because of the very nature of its design.

I also disagree that we can stop AI. As you so rightly pointed out, AI is heavily subsidised by the tech giants right now. Because AI isn't for us, it's for them. They're coming for our jobs, and none of us get a vote on our own employment.

That doesn't mean you need to swallow the boot.

Levelling your anger that some Average Joe that just wants a picture of his OC without the talent to draw more than a stickman, the desire to wait a decade in practicing, or the money to throw at an artist, is just a complete misdirection of your energy and misunderstanding of where the ethics lie.

Right! Who cares if Alex the Artist goes hungry? At least Joe has a new profile picture. It's not like Joe could have used any of the other free resources to make that picture of his OC (heroforge, picrew, etc). Alex shouldn't be angry that Joe actively contributes to the systems which steal her art. Why doesn't she just do it for free, and make breakfast with the gratitude and exposure that Joe provides (if he can stop generating another three prompts, that is).

If Average Joe wants to help, then they can stop using AI. If they continue to prop up the AI industry by using it, then they're part of the problem.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824365.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay?? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824509.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

kirotheavenger wrote:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I just want to come back to that argument, “What if a person can’t sing or play an instrument but can write lyrics? Shouldn’t it be okay to use AI?” No. Work with others who can sing and play. Do you think every artist writes their own songs? Do you think every songwriter is a performer? Stop inventing BS to justify your sociopathic selfishness.

Semantics maybe, but AI doesn't make it easier to create, it makes it easier to steal bits of existing creations. Nothing it creates is strictly new but an amalgamation of everything it's been trained on, it's just a really elaborate regurgitation/guessing machine.
Digital cameras lowered the bar to creation in terms of turnaround time, review and cost, but no-one else was ripped off in the process.

Art has a soul and should be left to humans, and we need to keep humans engaged in creating stuff or we're just going to get stuck in an infinite loop of AI slop.
Not that it doesn't have it's uses, but those are largely left to parody and whimsy. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824774.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??
The ones on phones are getting there and do a lot of auto adjustment. But for professional quality? You still need a professional photographer. One who understands apertures and exposures and focus well enough to actively play with them and get different effects on the resulting photo, whether it’s on film or a digital file at the end of the day.

Sure, it did put development labs out of business. No more Snappysnaps on the high street. But? In terms of careers and general employment, those roles were supplanted by professional photo editors. People with the know how of computer wizardry to edit an image in pretty much any way you so wish.

AI? Uses other people’s work, by no means with their consent. And puts no money in anyone’s pocket. Could be any media, it’s inherently parasitic and unoriginal.

Worse, and skirting the rules here? Is open to abuse. Not just fake nudeyrudey either. Stuff that actively and deliberately damaged the fabric of our society by presenting whatever lie you want to present to a credulous audience.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11824777.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

ByggareBob wrote:

Dysartes wrote:
ByggareBob wrote:

Have you got any other great artists?

By definition, you haven't heard any great artists.

A galactic-scale Nay, and a pox on these "creators".

You made a post about AI "musicians", didn't mention any actual musicians, then asked if we had any other "great artists" - the inference here being that the AI "musicians" were great artists. Which, by definition, they're not.

You can like the slop all you want, but they're not artists.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11825039.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11825039.page GMT AI music Yay or Nay??

I don't think it's inevitable at least in the media space, there seems to be a pretty big push back from it particularly by the younglings. Apparently sales of physical media are on the rise again as kids are moving away from algorithmic streaming and AI is likely to be even worse for them. I know a lot of people who immediately nope out of anything that even seems AI.

I think long for production of stuff it's going to fail to win over consumers and become completely toxic. It'll still serve lots of useful purposes like diagnostics and answering questions, but I don't think we'll ever get to a point where people will go to the cinema to watch a completely AI movie. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11825341.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819011/11825341.page GMT