<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "How do you go about learning a new style?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net How do you go about learning a new style? And you could say this is pointless as there's a whole new edition to learn.

But anyway.
The past 9 months or so I've been playing DE usually with a "Balanced Spectacle of Spite list".
Something like 30 Wyches+Lelith and friends and 25 Hellions for punch/potential jail.
Malys and 10 Kabalites, plus 10 Scourge with Dark Lances and a Ravager for shooting.
10 Mandrakes and 3 Reavers for early board control/secondaries if for some reason they don't die early.
Then 1 Cronos for taste and 1 raider, 2 venoms to round out the points.

There are some debates on exactly how to play the detachment, whether you ditch a lot of the non-Cult units to bring even more wyches and lots of reavers etc. But this matches "stuff wot I own" that meant I only had to find a few more hellions to play it.
I feel its pretty obvious what the army wants to do. Its a control list which usually has scope to trade up. If you can kill them great. If you can't flood the objectives with loads of OC and try to deny their scoring. If everything dies too quickly and you lose, oh well, it happens.

But say I wanted to move from Spectacle of Spite to Covenite Coterie. I ditch the Wyches+characters and 25 Hellions for say 1 Haemonculus, 45 Wracks, 4 Talos and 2 more Cronos. While still keeping the "balanced" element of shooting+board control elements.
I'm not quite sure how I'd play in a fundamentally different way. It feels like I'm trying to do the same thing its just my tools for doing it are worse. Yes you can stack an awful lot of OC on objectives with all those wracks, but you are just slower so less able to respond to the opponent. Without a pain token Wracks hit like wet noodles.

Had the same problems with trying to come up with an Eldar Corsairs list. I realise this might just be because Eldar have been nerfed into oblivion. But I feel like you need to play in a fundamentally different style, otherwise its just worse control.

So I guess my question is for those who play either multiple armies - or multiple detachments of the same army - how do you swap your style? Is it just that the lists are so fundamentally different that you find yourself playing differently as a result? Or do you find yourself going "this sucks, I'm going back to my main army?" ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824702.page GMT How do you go about learning a new style?
So if you want to figure out how to play a coven list, don't start with a wych list and then make it coven. Start from the ground up by asking yourself which coven units you're excited to use and why. Ask yourself what those units can do well. Then build your list around that.

But also, sometimes a given faction/subfaction simply *is* a worse version of another faction.

(Wish I could offer more specific help. My coven collection is kind of small and doesn't see play very often because I don't have a million MCs, and my wracks mostly don't have guns.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824724.page GMT How do you go about learning a new style?
(Appreciate Orks can hold their own in both, but damn can they shoot!)

I had to rethink my entire approach with Orks. I was sending units of boys forward in trukks. The trukks would go forward, then I'd disembark and furious charge at the enemy. Battlewagons and trukks, back when they couldn't fight in combat, were there to get me to the enemy.

Now, I use trukks and battlewagons as shooting platforms. I hang back, stay in cover, and go to combat when I need to get the extra movement for an objective. I have lootas and flash gitz and triple-KMB deff dreads blastign away from tactical positions. I used to swarm objectives in the last turn - now, you score all the way through, so you have to be present all game.

What worked for me was to A) expect to lose some games whilst you're learning, and B) make sure you learn! If you're like me and play rarely, make notes on what does and doesn't work, force yourself to not change the army list (unless that was the problem) and keep working on taktiks until they fit your new playstyle!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824732.page GMT How do you go about learning a new style?
 Wyldhunt wrote:
I think you might be putting the cart before the horse. When I'm getting used to a new playstyle, it isn't because I decided I wanted a new style and went from there. Instead, I found something that I wanted to lean into, got models that supported that shtick, and then went about the process of losing some games until I started winning a few.

So if you want to figure out how to play a coven list, don't start with a wych list and then make it coven. Start from the ground up by asking yourself which coven units you're excited to use and why. Ask yourself what those units can do well. Then build your list around that.


I think this is sound advice if you were new to the hobby. Its much more sensible to collect minis that excite you than some notional style of play players often struggle to define.
But... I think at a certain point you've been around for decades, and you are therefore looking to fundamentally play differently rather than worry about that.
Dark Eldar have excited me since their 5th edition reboot (and arguably 3rd, but I had no money.) But I feel 9th->10th and almost certainly 11th have sort of dictated a very specific style of play its hard to really break out of.

I guess pick a different list and just play it. Kind of reluctant to max out on Wracks & Talos though in the vain hopes DE are due a big release this expansion. Even if the combat patrol is standing right there.

====
Can't really comment on Orks. Its just that I imagine a Green Tide, Bully Boyz, Walkers or Buggies list all play quite differently. What you can do, what you can get away with etc.

You get these debates over Tempo vs Control - but that tends to just be are you going first or second.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824884.page GMT How do you go about learning a new style?
Tyel wrote:

I think this is sound advice if you were new to the hobby. Its much more sensible to collect minis that excite you than some notional style of play players often struggle to define.
But... I think at a certain point you've been around for decades, and you are therefore looking to fundamentally play differently rather than worry about that.


Ha! Having been around for decades I'm even more prone collect & play with minis that excite me.
Why?
1) Because after 40 years I've won & lost more games (all minis genres, not just 40k) than I even remember playing. And though I'm pretty damned good at this stuff, my W/L record isn't important to me anymore.
As long as I'm enjoying playing whatever I've built, then Win/Lose/Draw? I'm good.
2) Even though I'm not really on any sort of hobby budget these days? T.his (especially GWs) is expensive & getting ever more expensive. So I'm not going to waste my time & $ on models I don't like. Even if that makes running some forces more difficult. I can work with/around that.


Tyel wrote:
Dark Eldar have excited me since their 5th edition reboot (and arguably 3rd, but I had no money.) But I feel 9th->10th and almost certainly 11th have sort of dictated a very specific style of play its hard to really break out of.


It's not that hard.
1st pick the stuff you want to really play with.
Then pick the Detachment that best fits what you have/how you want to play.
Fill in gaps (pts or tactical) with secondary units that you find acceptable. Often I find that the stuff I really want to have in an army doesn't use up all the available pts....
Do NOT include units/models that you don't like (unless its absolutely rules necessary. For ex, I could happily run my own Drukari without a single character & zero Raiders. There's no Raiders in my collection, but the rules say I must have 1 character....) - this is a waste of your $ & painting time and every time you see the unit(s)/models on the table you'll feel irritation.
After that you simply force the stuff you've chosen to work for you.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819053/11824928.page GMT How do you go about learning a new style?
Tyel wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
I think you might be putting the cart before the horse. When I'm getting used to a new playstyle, it isn't because I decided I wanted a new style and went from there. Instead, I found something that I wanted to lean into, got models that supported that shtick, and then went about the process of losing some games until I started winning a few.

So if you want to figure out how to play a coven list, don't start with a wych list and then make it coven. Start from the ground up by asking yourself which coven units you're excited to use and why. Ask yourself what those units can do well. Then build your list around that.


I think this is sound advice if you were new to the hobby. Its much more sensible to collect minis that excite you than some notional style of play players often struggle to define.
But... I think at a certain point you've been around for decades, and you are therefore looking to fundamentally play differently rather than worry about that.
Dark Eldar have excited me since their 5th edition reboot (and arguably 3rd, but I had no money.) But I feel 9th->10th and almost certainly 11th have sort of dictated a very specific style of play its hard to really break out of.

I guess pick a different list and just play it. Kind of reluctant to max out on Wracks & Talos though in the vain hopes DE are due a big release this expansion. Even if the combat patrol is standing right there.

Valid. My coven collection was going to grotesque-centric with a lot of converted-up models using third-party minis (I had a trio of grotesques made with various D&D/Pathfinder troll minis decked out in grody tyranid bits and greenstuffed organic weapons). But then I didn't like 10th's rules for grotesques, and the move to Legends hasn't inspired confidence, and also I moved and mostly play at a GW store now anyway.

I know that once upon a time, the coven chunk of our army was the "durable" chunk that you could jog across the table and face tank enough incoming fire to be a threat while your more spindly drukhari elements focused on objectives, fire support, etc. But none of the coven stuff has seemed very durable on paper since the start of 10th.
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