<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew

Haighus wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

1.5k is probably the low end, representing a chapter that utilizes Serfs to a large extent in at least auxiliary combat roles(pilots, etc...). While a chapter that doesn't use Serfs might be closer to the 2x end.
I mean . . . source? Because we have a source from the 3rd ed codex, and it's nowhere near 1.5. It's kinda hitting 1.1 if all the company squads were full strength.

While I get your reasoning, given the information available I think we just have to assume much of the piloting/driving is done by "line" marines, possibly from reserve companies. For example, the Armory give the UM a total pool of, what looks like 41 Techmarines of various ranks (Master, Suprema, Techmarine, Apprentia). Even if all the 103 Servitors listed were also Marines (A big assumption), that's still not close to 1.5.


As I recall from the many discussions that were had at the time here on Dakka, it was pulled from the 3rd and 4th edition codices both from actual numbers and extrapolations of those numbers.



This is the famous 2nd company picture which shows 109 Marines in the 2nd company, including the 2 dreadnoughts.


There is also this picture here which is post-Primarus organization.



If we extrapolate this out using the official Ultramarine 2nd company as a baseline.

Companies 2-7 are the Battleline. So if we just go copypaste on the numbers for the 2nd company that is 654 Marines. 1st company is the same, except lets give them 6 Dreadnoughts instead of 2 for 113 more. 767 so far

8th and 9th. 1 captain, 2 Lts, Command squad(5 strong), 10 squads, and 2 Dreadnoughts. 110 each. 987 Marines

10th Company. 1 Captain, 2 Lts, 10 Vanguard squads, and an undetermined number of scout neophytes. So 103 definitely full Marines, plus a number of almost marines. Do scouts count towards the total??? How many are there if they do? I'll just say 50 to make it easy for now.

987+153. We are at 1140 Marines. This includes 20 Dreadnoughts and 50 scout neophytes as well as 9 chaplains.

Now we have the chapter command and ancillaries.

Chapter Command: Chapter Master and his command squad. 6 marines minimum. Chapter Master and 5 Honor Guard. You could maybe add another 5.

Reclusium: 9 Chaplains are already accounted for, but we still have the Master of Sanctity and perhaps a handful of additional chaplains. We'll add 6 more for the chapter to have 15 total(9 of which we already counted).

Apothecarian: 9 command squads have apothecaries. Lets just do the same as we did with the Reclusium and have 6 extra apothecaries who are not assigned to a particular company. 15(9 of which already counted)

Librarium: The average is 10-20 Librarians per chapter. Split the difference at 15.

1173 at the moment.

Armory: Here is where it gets messy. I'll need to estimate how many vehicles a chapter has of each type, including their Void Fleet.

Rhinos, Razorbacks, Land Speeders, and Bikes: I will assume these will only be crewed by the various Company squads directly using them with no dedicated crew.

Land Raiders: Crew of 2. 1 for the Chapter Master and his Honorguard. 5 for the 1st Company. 1 for each Command Squad. We'll just assume the typical chapter has no more than that, no extras. 7 Vehicles needing 14 crew.

Predators: Crew of 2. I'll assume 2 vehicles per company for a total of 20 needing 40 crew.

Gladiators: I can't find any crew numbers, but probably 2 again. I'll say half as many as Predators due to it being new-ish. 10 vehicles needing 20 crew

Repulsors: Same as Landraiders I'm guessing. Perhaps maybe 5 per chapter total with 2 crew each.

Vindicators and Whirlwinds: 5 per chapter, 2 crew each. 10 vehicles needing 20 crew

Each Chapter will have at least 1 Battlebarge as its flagship, then an additional Strike Cruiser for each Company and 3 Escort vessels per ship. To be conservative, I'll assume half of the ships are Commanded by a Serf while the others are commanded by a Marine. 11 capital ships, 33 escorts. 22 Marines holding the Master and Commander position.

Thunderhawks: 4 crew, 2 of which would basically have to be a Marine. The other 2 could potentially be Servitor or Serfs. I'll just count 2 marines each. 3 Thunderhawks per Strike Cruiser, 9 on the Battlebarge. 78 Marine crew for Thunderhawks on the Strike Cruisers.

So the armory total at this stage if we were to fully field every vehicle(probably unrealistic) would require 204 Marines just for vehicle crew and would not count any of the Techmarines operating in a logistical capacity.

It would logically take multiple dozen techmarines just to do the basic maintenance required for these vehicles, and a few more to crew them. I'll conservatively say 20 more Techmarines on top of the 204 marines who are dedicated vehicle crew across the fleet and armory. And I know I have skipped a bunch of vehicle types as well so you could maybe even have more.

Total is up to 1397 Marines with plenty of room for adding more dedicated crew.

This is definitely loosy goosy in terms of having any concrete numbers, but I really can't justify going any lower than this and having the chapter function in a meaningful way. Otherwise you'd have half the marines in each company having to do double duty as pilots most of the time and that just wouldn't work well.

Sorry for delayed reply. Busy busy busy.

Like you allude to, we both agree on the basic setup for chapter organization. The difference is the assumption that vehicle crew are additional marines to the primary count. For reference I'm working of this piece from the back of the 3rd edition codex, which gives additional detail for chapter organization. It has all sorts of nice stuff, like Librarian, Apothecary and Techmarine counts (and ranks!). It also provides detail on the vehicle numbers for a typical chapter, the Ultramarines being the prime example of a codex chapter.
Spoiler:


Most relevant to us is the Armory section, which lists Techmarines and major vehicles. There are what appears to be 33 techmarines of various ranks, plus what I imagine are Techmarines in training, the "Apprenta", which is 8 more. Then it lists Servitors (103), and then something called "Techno-mats", which are . . . ??? Because they are listed after Servitors, and the list appears to go by rank, Techno-mats seem to be less-than a Marine. Some sort of mechanic or . . . something. There's 72 of them, whatever they are, but I don't think those are Space Marines. Something to compare to is the Apothecarion, with a Chief Apothecary, 11 Apothecaries, 5 Initiates (like the Apprenta under the Armory), and then 31 Servo-mats . . . which are. . . I dunno. But that sounds like some sort of medical servitor or "power nurse/orderly" or something.

Also notable is the Headquarters, which includes a line that says "209 non Space Marine support and administrative staff". Another little detail is that rather than listing Command Squads in this one, each company lists a few Veteran Sergeants, a standard bearer, and a dedicated company Apothecary separate from the main chapter Apothecarion. The ingredients for the Command Squad are there, just not labeled for it.

Based on this detailed reference my take is that vehicles are crewed by techmarines, servitors, and members from the main companies themselves. If there was a collection of dedicated Space Marine crew it would be mentioned here.

The total number implied here, if ranks were filled, is 1070ish for the company org (107ish per company)., and Armory with 37 Techmarines, an Apothecarion with 17 Apothecaries, 27 Librarians, then 5 chapter Headquarters Marines, is 1,156. Considering most of the companies are missing marlines due to casualties, we're probably safe in assuming that some of the supernumary orgs are also under strength, so maybe add a couple more Yechmarines, Apothecaries and Librarians. Topped up, the Ultramarines chapter based on this example looks like it wouldn't hit 1,200 Marines.

. . . .
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTT
. . . .

I wrote all that and then looked closely at the upper left hand corner of the page, and saw the text "note that vehicles (not bikes) and spacecraft include complete crew complements"

So you're right, and I'm wrong! Lol. I hate that it's such a little almost throwaway blurb, but I guess there's another several hundred marines just for vehicles. I find it annoying that this isn't really explicitly mentioned anywhere else, at least to my knowledge. It sorta looks like 14-1500ish. The implication here is that there's about 100 Marines just for driving Rhinos around. It also suggests that Land Speeders have their own crew (not excepting them as with bikes), while in the 2nd edition book it says that Land Speeders are crewed by members of Assault Squads, and the model at the time has the squad marking to back that up. An unsatisfying lack of consistency.

Good spot!

Every other bit of lore has Landspeeders crewed by Assault Marines, or by the Tactical reserve company fully trained and equipped to deploy by Landspeeder (the other being trained and equipped to deploy on bikes). I think that is probably an omission, or a mistake by the observer compiling the report, especially as you can see the 6th company has loads of bikes, and the 7th company has loads of speeders, meanwhile the 8th company has lots of both in line with the other lore.


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Landspeeder Crew could be confusion coming in from Ravenwing squadrons.

10 strong. 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike, 1 Ravenwing Landspeeder = 9 Marines and a Sarge.

Peculiar but necessarily completely limited to the Dark Angels Chapter.



I've done some digging, and tried to pull up the various sources. Most of this is from around 3rd and 4th edition for a number of reasons:
1) They went into a lot of detail then, and have either repeated this later or been more vague since
2) I have access to this info...
3) The discussion was referring to the Codex Astartes 1000 Marines per Chapter. Since the return of Guilliman, the Codex Astartes is no longer so relevant anyway and Chapters are deviating more and more as GW releases new plastic kits

With that said.

Insectum7 raises a great source with the 3rd edition SM codex lore regarding the Ultramarines Chapter disposition at the outset fo the 1st Tyrannic War. This one states that vehicle crews are not included, except bikes. I think it almost certainly does include Landspeeder crews too, because these are referred to as being crewed by Assault Marines and 7th Reserve company Tactical Marines in multiple other contemporary sources of the time.

For example, Index Astartes in the article on the Codex Astartes states:


Insignium Astartes supports this:

Clearly Landspeeders are crewed by Marines drawn from squads. My interpretation is that Landspeeders essentially replaced harder-to-maintain/produce jetbikes in the same role.


Several sources are also clear that Marine companies are responsible for maintaining and crewing their own transports, including the aformentioned Index Astartes article, Insignium Astartes, and Imperial Armour Volume 2- Space Marines (1st edition). It is never stated anywhere I can find whether these drivers are drawn from one of the company squads are maintained as an additional ~11 Marines per company, but all indications seem to point to the latter. The following organisation page from Insignium Astartes is a good example (paragraph 2 is regarding the Company transports):

Note there are also details on other vehicles held and crewed at the company level- bikes and Landspeeders as detailed above.


For Armoury vehicles, the Index Astartes article on Predators makes it clear that these are crewed by "Custodians" who are not full Techmarines, but are members of the Chapter armoury. Index Astartes makes it sound like Custodians are permanent members of the Armoury who are specialised at the role. This makes a lot of sense, and concords with the Codex: Space Marines (3rd edition) source Insectum7 shared above. The passage in question from Index Astartes:

Insignium Astartes seems to support this in their insert about a particular honoured Predator of the Ultramarines Chapter seconded to the 1st Company. The text is a little difficult to read in that font, but it says "It's custodians are stalwart veterans promoted form the elite of the Chapter's vehicle crews...", again suggesting that Custodians are permanent positions within the Armoury:

So far so good. Then Imperial Armour Volume 2 comes into the fray again- they support the notion that Armoury vehicles are specially trained and called Custodians... however they state they are drawn from the 6th and 7th companies as needed The example given refers to 40 Tactical Marines from the 7th Company deployed to crew vehicles assigned to the overall task force:

I haven't dug through other Imperial Armour books right now, but from what I recall the consistentcy varies as to where crews are drawn from. Even in Imperial Armour Volume 2, the later force orgs for various Marine forces don't mention reserve company Marines being included to crew the Armoury vehicles, such as this example of the Blood Angels 3rd Company fighting in the 3rd War for Armageddon:

Notice the large number of attached Armoury vehicles, but no indication of reservists pulled in to crew them suggesting they came supplied with dedicated crew.

Now it is possible to square this circle in several ways- some Chapters have dedicated crews whilst smaller Chapters pull from reserve companies; some Chapters have a mix of both- a pool of dedicated crews that are topped up with the reserve company Marines as needed; Chapters do maintain Custodians as a permanent position, but typically select new Custodians from the reserve companies once their aptitude for crewing vehicles becomes apparent. These would all be reasonable interpretations that are also not mutually exclusive.


Does anyone have any additional sources to pull from?


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825686.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
It should read “Peculiar but not necessarily completely limited to the Dark Angels”.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825687.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew GW cares about exact detail that much. Also, like noted, different chapters can do things differently.

Personally I think it would be hella awkward to not have dedicated vehicle crew and having to constantly juggle reserve marines to those roles, so I'd assume that most chapters have at least some extra marines for that purpose.

And then there of course are the space ships, which certainly would benefit from some dedicated crew as well.

But it doesn't really matter. Thousand marines is absurdly low number for a self-sufficient fighting force operating like marines are depicted operating, and 1500 or even 2000 is still absurdly low. Like yeah, 1500 might make mores sense than 1000, but it still really doesn't make much sense, so imagine whatever. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825714.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
After all, Guilliman is back, and the reasons for him instating this limit to begin with are fairly clearly secondary to the more immediate problems he has to deal with, so I can't imagine he'd care much for enforcing it.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825716.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
He’s the Regent, and is running the combat show because he’s the best Ubermensch for that job.

But? He isn’t in charge. He still has to seek consent of the High Lords. And given the intent behind the 2nd Founding and its limits? I doubt many would be in favour of relaxing those.

It doesn’t help that I don’t think we’ve ever seen a copy of the Codex Astartes. So we don’t know how strictly it’s written on Headcount. If it’s 10 Companies of 10 Squads per Chapter, plus Support? Nobody is in breach by having enough Marines to fill out those squads and crew their entire vehicle pool.

We do know the Scout Company is of no set size. Ostensibly to allow each Chapter to manage its own recruitment to maintain itself at fighting strength, which will vary depending on the actions its just undertaken and is lined up for.

OP lists the kind of maybe rank of custodian. That is, a Space Marine with a knack for such things committed to being vehicle crew. So they’re not regular infantry (though of course I’ve no doubt they could be folded into any squad with a good level of success), but there for a specific battlefield role, be that driver or gunner.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825721.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825721.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

It doesn’t help that I don’t think we’ve ever seen a copy of the Codex Astartes. So we don’t know how strictly it’s written on Headcount. If it’s 10 Companies of 10 Squads per Chapter, plus Support? Nobody is in breach by having enough Marines to fill out those squads and crew their entire vehicle pool.


Because it is not real and GW doens't care about such minutiae. But given that we've seen Ultramarine organisation charts implying existence of more than 1000 marines in the chapter, and the Ultras are one of the most ardent codex followers, one can probably pretty safely assume that it is not a hard limit. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825723.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew GW should never and I hope will never write the Codex Astartes.

For one, there are canonically several versions.

For two, unlike the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, it is supposed to be a comprehensive tome for master strategists and tacticians, not an introductory pamphlet. Writing that in a convincing way is just hard, and instead risks making Guilliman look like an idiot instead of a genius (see the Horus Heresy novel series for a prime example of the issues in writing Primarchs).

I think the Codex is also huge, so it would be a really big book.

No, it is better that we get snippets filtered through books more limited in scope, like Insignium Astartes and Index Astartes.

For the same, albeit somewhat less pronounced reasons, I hope GW never tries to pen the Tactica Imperium. Yes, there is a background book called Tactica Imperium, but it is a series of 4 case studies and not supposed to represent the overall tome.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825728.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He doesn’t have that sort of power.


The power to... not enforce something? Huh?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825740.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Crimson wrote:
I don't think this is a thing that necessarily has any sort of "correct" answer, nor I think GW cares about exact detail that much. Also, like noted, different chapters can do things differently.

Personally I think it would be hella awkward to not have dedicated vehicle crew and having to constantly juggle reserve marines to those roles, so I'd assume that most chapters have at least some extra marines for that purpose.

And then there of course are the space ships, which certainly would benefit from some dedicated crew as well.

But it doesn't really matter. Thousand marines is absurdly low number for a self-sufficient fighting force operating like marines are depicted operating, and 1500 or even 2000 is still absurdly low. Like yeah, 1500 might make mores sense than 1000, but it still really doesn't make much sense, so imagine whatever.

Yeah it's the difference between having two space marines for every 50,000,000 people on the planet and having three of them. The reality is GW bungled their zero-counting really bad from the start and chapters would need to be oversized by 100x for it to start making sense, not 2x or 1.5x or whatever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825769.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He doesn’t have that sort of power.


The power to... not enforce something? Huh?


The power to rescind a rule that exists to prevent any one person gathering too much personal power. When there’s paranoia aplenty about Guilliman simply seizing power.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825786.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
The 1000 "limit" was only ever approximate AND is acknowledged to only be adhered to in a loose sense and the Codex has been added to adjusted and adapted over time. On top of that any attempt to actually enforce it would be impractical if not impossible.

People learn the "Chapters are 1000 marines" thing when they first enter the hobby and latch on to it like it's gospel. It has always been an approximate guideline (or at least since codex: Ultramarines in 2nd edition), it's always been deviated from even by the strictest chapters and it has never been an absolute limit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825789.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He doesn’t have that sort of power.


The power to... not enforce something? Huh?


The power to rescind a rule that exists to prevent any one person gathering too much personal power. When there’s paranoia aplenty about Guilliman simply seizing power.


Rescinding a rule is very different from not actively enforcing it. I'd argue it would be much harder for him to actually enforce it than to not do so.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825793.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825793.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He doesn’t have that sort of power.

The power to... not enforce something? Huh?

The power to rescind a rule that exists to prevent any one person gathering too much personal power. When there’s paranoia aplenty about Guilliman simply seizing power.


Guilliman only introduced that rule to make sure he could be the only one to amass all that power. It was to eliminate the competition. "Yep, only thousand marines under one commander; meanwhile I'll appoint myself as the Lord Commander of the Imperium and the Regent. Oh, and my chapter will have a 500 planet fiefdom with all its assets."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825799.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Crimson wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He doesn’t have that sort of power.

The power to... not enforce something? Huh?

The power to rescind a rule that exists to prevent any one person gathering too much personal power. When there’s paranoia aplenty about Guilliman simply seizing power.


Guilliman only introduced that rule to make sure he could be the only one to amass all that power. It was to eliminate the competition. "Yep, only thousand marines under one commander; meanwhile I'll appoint myself as the Lord Commander of the Imperium and the Regent. Oh, and my chapter will have a 500 planet fiefdom with all its assets."

Guilliman did actually split off most of the fiefdom in the 2nd Founding, parceling off various bits to newly created Chapters. Only the core of Ultramar was kept by the Ultramarines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825801.page GMT Re:Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
That would actually put the number I generated even higher since I was just assuming they had half of available crew for every vehicle possible. Which would easily put a chapter over 2k marines depending on exactly how many vehicles they had.

I would still assume that the average chapter is going to be floating some casualties at some point and they are never at their theoretical maximum. So if a chapter has a theoretical maximum of around 2000 I would be confidant in saying they average between 1200 and 1600.


If we bring some real world logic, the 2000 marine theoretical maximum makes a lot more sense if you are considering logistics and the need for those line companies to have vehicle support without cannibalizing their own formations. Of course this also assumes the chapter is interested in following the codex anymore as well.

Real world logistics ratios can be as high as 100:1, meaning for every soldier in a combat role there are 100 behind him in the logistics train. Which support classes like vehicle crew, apothecaries, librarians, etc... would be analogous roles to. The vast majority of that number can be made up of chapter serfs, but you'd still need some actual marines in the chain because someone important has to make certain decisions and even the most trusted serf can't make all of those decisions.

So a chapter having a ratio of 1 frontline marine to 1 support marine would make a decent amount of sense. Especially with those support marines still being skewed towards more dangerous support roles like vehicle crew. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825837.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825837.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
I'd also hazard that the vehicles shown in the above graphic are those in active service with available crews, rather than the full Chapter complement. We know ancient Chapters like the Ultramarines have deep reserves within the Armoury of mothballed relics and spare equipment. The Ultramarines even seemed to have mothballed fleet assets given how many different vessels end up in circulation.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825871.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
Some will only rarely see the light of day not because “we am forgot how do”, but because they just don’t have a practical role in the modern Chapter’s day to day business.

For instance? The Mastodon. In certain respects, it’s a ground based Thunderhawk. Cavernous transport capacity, well armed for close defence. Still useful in a siege, of course. But then, it seems rare Marines would lead a siege these days, not when you’ve the Imperial Guard and its oodles of artillery to shell the poor sods into submission. A Marine Commander doing oversight? Absolutely. But the Guard battering down the walls, then whatever Marines you might have doing the Forlorn Hope.

So whilst yes, there are still situations where a Mastodon would be most welcome? They’re not terribly common.

A similar argument can be made for many Heresy Era Tanks. Especially if you include my favourite pet theory of limited resources and man hours being put to best use maintaining the toys you use the most often.

That last bit fairly neatly addresses the modern absence of Sabres and Arquitors. Certain armaments aside? They’re not overly finnickity to maintain. But, each requires its own stock of spares and repairs. Whereas anything Rhino based has a common pool to draw from, and in a pinch three damaged can be made into two fully operational etc.

So, despite being useful to a modern Chapter’s way of war? Those require a disproportionate amount of materials and effort to be used regularly. And even further training for the crews.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825873.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d imagine most early founding Chapters will have stuff they rarely deploy, as a result of the number available during the Heresy era.

Some will only rarely see the light of day not because “we am forgot how do”, but because they just don’t have a practical role in the modern Chapter’s day to day business.

For instance? The Mastodon. In certain respects, it’s a ground based Thunderhawk. Cavernous transport capacity, well armed for close defence. Still useful in a siege, of course. But then, it seems rare Marines would lead a siege these days, not when you’ve the Imperial Guard and its oodles of artillery to shell the poor sods into submission. A Marine Commander doing oversight? Absolutely. But the Guard battering down the walls, then whatever Marines you might have doing the Forlorn Hope.

So whilst yes, there are still situations where a Mastodon would be most welcome? They’re not terribly common.

A similar argument can be made for many Heresy Era Tanks. Especially if you include my favourite pet theory of limited resources and man hours being put to best use maintaining the toys you use the most often.

That last bit fairly neatly addresses the modern absence of Sabres and Arquitors. Certain armaments aside? They’re not overly finnickity to maintain. But, each requires its own stock of spares and repairs. Whereas anything Rhino based has a common pool to draw from, and in a pinch three damaged can be made into two fully operational etc.

So, despite being useful to a modern Chapter’s way of war? Those require a disproportionate amount of materials and effort to be used regularly. And even further training for the crews.


Agreed.

Some honoured relics also get put into retirement and essentially worshipped by the Chapter as veterans, similar to older Dreadnoughts. I am certain they would get pulled into action in extremis, but for regular audits they would be off the books.

The example given in the Imperial Armour book is Nocturne's Hammer, a Salamanders Rhino that is at least 8000 years old and said to have once carried Vulkan himself. It is now a treasured artefact in the Armoury and has the engine switched on once per century in a special, portenteous ritual. Now, the Salamanders probably have one of the deepest Amouries of all Chapters given their heritage, dramatic drop in numbers during the Heresy, and technical prowess and industrial capacity, so they'll be able to afford to use some vehicles as ornaments more than most. But it serves to illustrate the point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825878.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
But that’s assuming the tank is aboard your ship. Which suggests if that was going to happen, it’s when you’re expecting a major engagement and figure “have it and not need it” is the preferable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825889.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah. I’m sure there still will be circumstances where “sod it, Brother Keith, go get the Fellblade. See how they like that up them” is the right option.

But that’s assuming the tank is aboard your ship. Which suggests if that was going to happen, it’s when you’re expecting a major engagement and figure “have it and not need it” is the preferable.

Or the Chapter homeworld/keep/flagship is being attacked and they're firing up anything they can dust off in the depths of the Armoury.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825892.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
Though depending on how universal the controls might be (if STC derived, entirely possible they are universal) on the various tanks past and present? There may be occasional training for veteran tank crews on how to make best of use relics.

I mean, it’s still within my lifetime that all cars have an automatic choke. Put a youngster from today in my Dad’s old mini-metro? And they may simply not know the choke even exists, let alone how to use it. It’s nothing fancy, but it is an extra step in getting the thing to go. Heck, put most adults in it and they may have entirely forgotten older models have the manual choke!

Hmm. Now I’m wondering if anyone has a source to confirm whether or not Astartes vehicles connect to the Black Carapace in anyway? Even if it’s just to link its sensors and that to the driver’s helmet?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825894.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Orkeosaurus wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I don't think this is a thing that necessarily has any sort of "correct" answer, nor I think GW cares about exact detail that much. Also, like noted, different chapters can do things differently.

Personally I think it would be hella awkward to not have dedicated vehicle crew and having to constantly juggle reserve marines to those roles, so I'd assume that most chapters have at least some extra marines for that purpose.

And then there of course are the space ships, which certainly would benefit from some dedicated crew as well.

But it doesn't really matter. Thousand marines is absurdly low number for a self-sufficient fighting force operating like marines are depicted operating, and 1500 or even 2000 is still absurdly low. Like yeah, 1500 might make mores sense than 1000, but it still really doesn't make much sense, so imagine whatever.

Yeah it's the difference between having two space marines for every 50,000,000 people on the planet and having three of them. The reality is GW bungled their zero-counting really bad from the start and chapters would need to be oversized by 100x for it to start making sense, not 2x or 1.5x or whatever.

I still think 1000 Marines or thereabouts works as a concept for the tip of the spear of a colonial police force.

For context, if a Marine strike cruiser appeared in orbit today with a demi-company of Marines on board, I reckon they could achieve compliance of Earth within a week, at least to the point that Earth has a planetary governor who is able to supply it's tithe to the Imperium. Would the whole world be pacified? Probably not, but it doesn't need to be for resource extraction.

Earth has ~7 billion people today, a larger population than many, probably even most Imperial worlds, given the population of the Imperium is concentrated on hive worlds and most other types of world are fairly sparsely populated. How could ~50 Marines defeat it?

Well, first of all, demand a surrender. If they get crickets, they might do a statement piece like deleting a symbolic military installation from orbit like Pearl Harbor, or instead they might launch a drop pod assault on the White House and take out the president and any of his cabinet present before extracting before any significant response can be mustered. Now the surrender demand can be repeated. If it isn't accepted again, a different world leader gets deleted, and so on and so on until the remaining decide they prefer living actually and it is probably better to simply join this Imperium they keep speaking about. The ability to essentially strike at will is what is key here.

50 Marines dropping straight into the residence of a head of state can comfortably overwhelm the forces likely to be present long enough to decapitate the leadership, because that strength of 50 is incredibly focused on one specific point in the line (and have significant aerial and orbital force).

Now, the tech base is usually higher in 40k, but we know that many Imperial worlds don't have the tech to swat a drop pod or Thunderhawk assault out of the sky or to send a strike cruiser packing, and that those that do are indeed much harder targets to crack and a very big problem if they rebel. That is why Space Marines are not the only force available to the Imperium and why they often operate as enablers to other forces.

I think it is best to think of Marines as a specialised, self-guiding, reusable, precision munition for Marine warships. We know that even a fairly small number of precision munitions can have an outsized impact on a campaign if they are deployed in the right places, and Marines are able to do that repeatedly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmm. Now I’m wondering if anyone has a source to confirm whether or not Astartes vehicles connect to the Black Carapace in anyway? Even if it’s just to link its sensors and that to the driver’s helmet?

See the passage from Imperial Armour Volume 2 in my original post at the top of the thread. I'll repost it here:


Marines do indeed connect to their vehicles via the black carapace and are able to "feel" the vehicle.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825992.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11825992.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew
 Haighus wrote:
 Orkeosaurus wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I don't think this is a thing that necessarily has any sort of "correct" answer, nor I think GW cares about exact detail that much. Also, like noted, different chapters can do things differently.

Personally I think it would be hella awkward to not have dedicated vehicle crew and having to constantly juggle reserve marines to those roles, so I'd assume that most chapters have at least some extra marines for that purpose.

And then there of course are the space ships, which certainly would benefit from some dedicated crew as well.

But it doesn't really matter. Thousand marines is absurdly low number for a self-sufficient fighting force operating like marines are depicted operating, and 1500 or even 2000 is still absurdly low. Like yeah, 1500 might make mores sense than 1000, but it still really doesn't make much sense, so imagine whatever.

Yeah it's the difference between having two space marines for every 50,000,000 people on the planet and having three of them. The reality is GW bungled their zero-counting really bad from the start and chapters would need to be oversized by 100x for it to start making sense, not 2x or 1.5x or whatever.

I still think 1000 Marines or thereabouts works as a concept for the tip of the spear of a colonial police force.

For context, if a Marine strike cruiser appeared in orbit today with a demi-company of Marines on board, I reckon they could achieve compliance of Earth within a week, at least to the point that Earth has a planetary governor who is able to supply it's tithe to the Imperium.

Yeah but if a spaceship armed with lance batteries and void shields appeared in orbit today with me on board sitting in my underwear I could also conquer the entire Earth.

I guess you could say there are three statements that can't all be true at once:
1. There are only 1 or 2 space marines for every planet in the Imperium
2. Space marines are essential to the defense of the Imperium
3. You can fit 50 space marines in a 2000 points 40k list and still lose to 100 orks or guardsmen

If I was in charge of GW I would rip the band-aid off and get rid of #1, so that companies of marines can be routinely deployed across a battlefront spanning an entire planet. Apparently some of the marine fanboys want to get rid of #3 or argue that every ork model actually represents 10 orks or some nonsense like that. But since GW is unlikely to change either #1 or #3 that leaves #2 as the only reasonable interpretation: space marines are nice to have but not truly essential to the Imperium's survival. Most of the missions done by space marines could have been done by stormtroopers or sisters or kasrkins if they received the same level of support. What matters the most is having space ships in orbit and intel on the enemy's operation.

I guess that might also explain why the Imperium won't create more than a million space marines even in the face of something like the Tyranids or the Fall of Cadia: they just aren't actually that helpful, and having five units of stormtroopers is almost always better than one tactical squad. Expanding the number of space marines could just be a net-loss for the Imperium, costing them more than they're worth militarily. (Seems a bit anticlimactic though.)


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11826134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11826134.page GMT Space Marine Chapter size and vehicle crew BTs and SWs both ignore the chapter limit and old legions like the Imperial Fists and Dark Angels have protocols about effectively being a legion again (or at least working together like a legion), the idea of a limitation is far more notional than it might seem.

For newer chapters created, without resources or allies they probably don't have any way to protect themselves from retaliation. but older or more renowned chapters could probably get away with it.

It's my opinion that space marines have a much larger recruitment pool sitting above the front line units, like an inverted pyramid. You don't see the huge apparatus, but each marine has dozens of people funneling down to them to keep them fighting. Which includes an endless line of new recruits waiting to pick up the their gun when they die.


They specify the scout company has no official size, which supports this.

You only need 10% of your chapter to survive long enough to be veterans to get a 1st company, while the life span of your other companies may only be measured in decades or years before replacement depending on the type of warfare they conduct and how regularly.

If all they are doing is orbital strikes on government buildings to replace disloyal officials or kill rebellious leaders, then they're going to survive longer.

But if its intense total war against full alien militaries properly equipped, their casualties will be sustained and high.

Each position in the chapter could have a line of 10 recruits at different levels of training which you could argue mean the chapter is 10,000 strong, but in reality only has 1000 functioning soldiers at anyone one time.

We see that the ultramarines lost their whole first company during the first tyrannic war, and the BAs lost their first company to a SPACE HULK.

Chapters would not be effective if their losses were like that regularly and they couldn't resupply quickly.

It's a matter of logistics, each marine is a single highly expensive weapon with a massive apparatus behind them, and an unlimited funding to keep them going.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11826142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/819087/11826142.page GMT