<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Game after game losing to jetbike seer council destructor spam, I'm clueless how to beat them with tyranid. Please share some of your successful tactics and stories. What unit combinations are best to play against them? How did you beat those space elf at 1500 pts level?

Thanks


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2025903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2025903.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
New Player wrote:How did you beat those space elf at 1500 pts level?

It's actually quite easy.
Don't play the douchebag, and yell at him until he leaves the store. Our club got rid of these players easily. They never got a game because people simply said "no thanks" when they asked for games.

Flying Seer Council is not "fluffy", or "nice". It's not going to be a fun game, so tell him to have some originality.

Otherwise, ya can't beat them. I'm not going to waste your time and math-hammer it all out, but they are nigh unstoppable. Jawaballs is a moron.

Happy hunting! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2025984.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2025984.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
First of, Shadow in the Warp will help against the inevitable fortune. Death Leaper can also be used to make the seer council less likely to get its lolinvul save off.
Then take them out with large broods of Gargoyles. Your speed should be enough to get a charge off, and as long as you charge them and not the other way around they can't destructor you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026042.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? LGS, to the point that it drove out fellow gamers, hence the rage.

Better off not playing the tard, and having fun with all-comers balanced lists. Trust me, you'll love the game more.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026046.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Although tar-pitting Gargoyles seems to be the way to go, unless you count overhauling the table through rage as a tactic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026071.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Just out of mild curiosity, wouldn't a Heavy Venom Cannon really ruin the Counsil's day?
No.
They have a 3+/4++ save WITH re-rolls. They are known for being very killy AND resilient.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Although tar-pitting Gargoyles seems to be the way to go, unless you count overhauling the table through rage as a tactic.
...I have NEVER done that... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026078.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026097.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026100.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Speed v speed! Go winged and CC, parasite of mortrex can instakill. Harpy, flyrant etc can force them to rely on invul save in CC. Shrikes with boneswords are also fun ...

Use gargoyles to pin them, then send the big hitters in to finish them off.

Doom of malantai?

Paroxysm and tyrant?

Onslaught on tervigon and mass gaunts?

Mawloc and deep strike?

Plenty of options to try. Rememeber that will often be 500 points in one unit, so you can afford to throw plenty at it!



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026122.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Don't play the douchebag, and yell at him until he leaves the store. Our club got rid of these players easily. They never got a game because people simply said "no thanks" when they asked for games.


Yes, drive people away from the hobby. Especially people you can't beat. That way you never have to step up your own game or learn to play better.



Seriously, New Player, it would help to know what models you have available, but the bike council has a lot of weaknesses. It's a difficult matchup for tyranids because their weapons basically ignore toughness, and toughness is one of the major defenses that nids use. But they're also not power weapons, they're not fearless, and they're so expensive that if you can defeat the bike council, you've pretty much defeated the Eldar player.

You should be able to spread out enough that a destructor template will only hit 3-4 models to minimize casualties. Remember that he can only move 12" and still shoot destructor, so you should be able to anticipate where it's coming and set up your countercharge.

Catalyst, if you can pull it off, will allow a swarm of little bugs to bog down the bike council at least. Genestealers with catalyst could some serious damage to them.

If you have the models, Deathleaper reducing the farseer's leadership in combination with The Horror can run them off the table (they'll probably have a re-roll). Failing that, paroxysm will nerf their ability to fight you in HtH.

Finally, in hand-to-hand combat is probably your best chance to defeat them. Focus attacks on the farseer (he's an independent character, so you can do that), especially str6+ attacks that will insta-kill him if he fails even one save. Once he goes down, the unit loses fortune and are much easier to deal with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026293.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Flavius Infernus wrote:Yes, drive people away from the hobby. Especially people you can't beat. That way you never have to step up your own game or learn to play better.

OH NOES! A TROLL! I thought, so far during my pleasant stay on DakkaDakka, that there weren't any here!

Guess I was wrong.

But a little late aren't you? I have already explained:

dbgoldberg323 wrote:Yeah, I guess tarpitting them [the flying Seer Council] is the only way. They've seriously been annoying at our LGS, to the point that [they] drove out fellow gamers, hence the rage.

Better off not playing the tard, and having fun with all-comers balanced lists. Trust me, you'll love the game more.

Now get out of here before you ruin my DakkaDakka experience!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026313.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Flavius Infernus wrote:
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Don't play the douchebag, and yell at him until he leaves the store. Our club got rid of these players easily. They never got a game because people simply said "no thanks" when they asked for games.


Yes, drive people away from the hobby. Especially people you can't beat. That way you never have to step up your own game or learn to play better.



Seriously, New Player, it would help to know what models you have available, but the bike council has a lot of weaknesses. It's a difficult matchup for tyranids because their weapons basically ignore toughness, and toughness is one of the major defenses that nids use. But they're also not power weapons, they're not fearless, and they're so expensive that if you can defeat the bike council, you've pretty much defeated the Eldar player.

You should be able to spread out enough that a destructor template will only hit 3-4 models to minimize casualties. Remember that he can only move 12" and still shoot destructor, so you should be able to anticipate where it's coming and set up your countercharge.

Catalyst, if you can pull it off, will allow a swarm of little bugs to bog down the bike council at least. Genestealers with catalyst could some serious damage to them.

If you have the models, Deathleaper reducing the farseer's leadership in combination with The Horror can run them off the table (they'll probably have a re-roll). Failing that, paroxysm will nerf their ability to fight you in HtH.

Finally, in hand-to-hand combat is probably your best chance to defeat them. Focus attacks on the farseer (he's an independent character, so you can do that), especially str6+ attacks that will insta-kill him if he fails even one save. Once he goes down, the unit loses fortune and are much easier to deal with.


Flavius is absolutely right. There are alot of tools at your disposal to defeat the seer council, but it would be helpful for us to know what you have available so we can help you select appropriate units and tactics from what you have.

Another thing to remember about CC, is that the council will most likely have I5 (Farseer I6) from enhance, so make sure whatever you attack them with either has decent initiative, or can weather alot of wounds before having a chance to swing. I'd say any unit with high initiative backed up by a Tervigon's FNP and some S6 sprinkled in is a good place to start.

Also, as Flav said, they aren't fearless, so if you can reduce their Leadership through the deathleaper, and shut down Fortune with Shadow of the Warp, you'll have a much easier time. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026383.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Now get out of here before you ruin my DakkaDakka experience!


If you have any desire to extend your Dakka experience then I suggest you calm down, don't insult other users who offer perfectly good advice and refrain from describing people who field perfectly legal and valid forces as "tards" and the like. Otherwise it seems distinctly possible your experience will be, alas, short and sweet. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026405.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
reds8n wrote:don't insult other users who offer perfectly good advice
Sure thing. Just a bit miffed at the indirect "if you don't play every list, even the abusive ones, YOU are tactically deficient" comment, subtly strewn into his PC statement.
reds8n wrote:and refrain from describing people who field perfectly legal and valid forces as "tards" and the like.
Done and done, however I refuse, however stiff the "punishment", to refer to said people as "good for the hobby" and "polite gaming partners" when it is obvious they strive for the opposite.

"Warning" understood, rage over. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026411.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
"Warning" understood, rage over.


Good man !

I think, from past experience with the posters here, you are reading a bit too much into some of the preceeding comments. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026416.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
@OP: However, for actual advice, considering a simple 10-Elf unit costs 600? points, either ignore them completely or focus on them (or use the tar-pit tactic as described above).

They WILL walk through your army, and if you'd like, I can quickly math-hammer out how frickin sweet they actually are against T6, AV14, etc.

Just know they are "popular" for a reason...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026425.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
I personally enjoy both fluffy/compy 40K and competitive/cutthroat 40K. I don't agree that any legal list is "abusive," and mathhammer notwithstanding, I don't think any unit is that uber. Particularly the bike council, which has major weaknesses that have actually made it much less popular around where I play (I only know one guy who still runs it).

A balanced, all-comers competitive army from any codex, in my experience, can beat the bike council. Including Tyranids.

Oh, and welcome to Dakka ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026462.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Flavius Infernus wrote:Sorry about the snippiness, dbgoldberg. As somebody who has lived through the implosion of several gaming groups because of infighting over issues just like this one, I'm a little overly sensitive about it I guess.
No problem. Sorry I flipped the out! I have a bad habit of doing so, to the point that people at my LGS call it a "Dave Rage". FML.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I personally enjoy both fluffy/compy 40K and competitive/cutthroat 40K. I don't agree that any legal list is "abusive," and mathhammer notwithstanding, I don't think any unit is that uber. Particularly the bike council, which has major weaknesses that have actually made it much less popular around where I play (I only know one guy who still runs it).

A balanced, all-comers competitive army from any codex, in my experience, can beat the bike council. Including Tyranids.

I'd love to see it. And I'm not calling you out, just saying that I would REALLY love to see it. There was a guy at my LGS, as I had mentioned before, who ran that list repeatedly, and boasted about how his army was the best and he's the best player at our LGS. We quickly ran him out because of it, and have taken poorly to similar Flying Seer Council lists since. Problem was, he only lost 3 games out of hundreds so he was the type where he was "good" and "knew it".

Honestly, Seer Council is bad. And wrong. They're "badong".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026493.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
gargoyles can do the job pretty well, you just need to get the charge off, as can outflanking genestealers if you can draw them to the outside of the board.

Remember shadows and the warp, many times I forget this. tie them up then paradoxym them, and ruin their day with little bugs. also remember that they have problems assaulting into terrain iirc because they are jetbikes, and they can't assult overtop any unit so anything you screen with gaunts or gargs is pretty unassaultable.

remember anything poisoned and with Str equal to or greater than their base str can reroll wounds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026513.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
I'd love to see it. And I'm not calling you out, just saying that I would REALLY love to see it.


Here's a battle report by Mafty where an ordinary balanced ork army beat his bike council, outmaneuvering and then overwhelming them with large numbers of attacks (like nids would be able to do). With pics.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318240.page#1953392

Granted, at that same tournament Mafty did defeat a nid army in round 1, but that nid player made some serious mistakes and basically fed his army to the bike council.

[Edit to elaborate on that battle report]

Mafty's tyranid opponent might consider phasing out the 4th edition, broodlord-run genestealer units and just going for bigger units. The rest of his army looks good enough to have won that game, or at least to have done much better.

I think his biggest mistake was reserving the trygons and stealers. Mafty's army, after all those points spent on the bike council, really didn't have enough shooting to seriously threaten a first turn alpha strike, the nid player wound up deepstriking and outflanking into his own deployment zone anyway. If he'd deployed everything he could have sent the trygons into the grav tanks and split up Mafty's shooting. As it was, Mafty only had to deal with one threat at a time as they straggled in from reserve and popped up individually, out of position. This is something I see nid players doing a lot--reserving trygons and genestealers against mech armies where it would be better to deploy them and cross the table. Against a static army that's going to try to stay away from you, outflanking and deepstriking is good, but against a mobile opponent you need the mass of threat zones on the table to box in the vehicles. Trygons are fast for monstrous creatures--threat range 13-19"--and they have the attacks and dual scytals that give them the ability to hurt skimmers. But only if they're actually on the table.

If you don't let the council get off a multi-charge, they can only handle one unit at a time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026537.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026575.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Granted, at that same tournament Mafty did defeat a nid army in round 1, but that nid player made some serious mistakes and basically fed his army to the bike council.


nobs are pretty good in cloes combat but realistically the same job could be done pretty easily by 2 units of gargs/stealers or 2 units of most any other small bug properly supported. Once they are tied up moving in a tervigon and pooping out reinforcements+shadows in the warping + buffing the mobs should be pretty much game over as long as you had enough to keep them tied up.

pretty much once they are tied up you can pile in or move close to them, as soon as they miss a psychic test they should all go down.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026578.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? If you get first turn or he has to come off the table edge and you have some descent long range with venom cannons and the like you should be able to take a chunk out. (I play guard, only time I ran into a seer council I killed them turn 1 with 4 Lemon Russ tanks.) Remember he has to use all his psychic powers at the beginning of his turn before any movement. If this isn't impossible tarpit the crap out of them and then large groups of small guys. Once they are locked in they simply don't get a lot of attacks. Warlocks are base 1 I believe, and farseer base 2 attacks, and they allow armour saves and FNP rolls. As said gargoyles, harpies, or Shrikes are you best bets to steal a charge, and disallow the million destructor template fun. And don't feel bad. This is one of the most durable units in the entire game, and a lot of people don't play against it very often because the bulk of your casual gamers A) Don't use the Eldar book because it is an older codex and needs a lot of practice and skill to use properly, and B) It's a conversion only unit, having to make your own models turns some people off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026614.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026678.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Grundz wrote:right, also devourer gaunts, if you can catch the council outside of combat you can put a horrendous amount of wounds on them.


Okay, I'm gonna show you guys how pointless this all has been. This unit is OP for a reason, and here's why:

THIRTY Devourer Gaunts fire at 10 Jetbikes + 1 Farseer Jetbike. Ouch, right?

30 Devourer Gaunts = 90 shots @ BS3 S4
90 Shots = 45 hits (90 x 3/6 to hit)
45 hits = 15 wounds (45 x 2/6 to wound)
15 wounds = 5 "dead" (15 x 2/6 failed saves)
5 "dead" = 2 "dead" (5 x 2/6 failed saves) <-- Fortuned!
Not enough to even cause a morale check with that silly "-1".

8 bikes and the Farseer left.

And then the reward,

8 bikes use 5 Destructors on the unit and if they don't COMPLETELY pick them up (which is likely), we'll go straight to assault.

8 bikes + a Farseer charge THIRTY non-destructored Devourer Gaunts, and for S's & G's, we'll grant them the 6" range from a Tervigon with Toxin Sacs and his special "Counter Charge" ability that he also gives them.

Seer Council casts Doom on the gaunts, and fortune on themselves.
8 bikes and the Farseer go FIRST at Initiative 5.
8 bikes and the Farseer = 39 WS5 attacks that wound on 2's.
39 attacks = 26 hits (39 x 4/6 to hit)
26 hits = 22 wounds (26 x 5/6 to wound)
22 wounds = 18 dead

12 Gaunts attack back with 2 attacks each (counter charge) wounding on 4's (toxin sacs).
24 attacks = 12 hits (24 x 3/6 to hit)
12 hits = 6 wounds (12 x 3/6 to wound)
6 wounds = 2 "dead" (6 x 4/6 to save)
2 "dead" = 0 casualties (2 x 4/6 to save)

Combat is lost by 18 wounds, and since the remaining 12 Gaunts are Fearless (to be getting those 6" buffs), they take 18 No Retreat wounds, thus getting wiped out to the Gaunt.

The Jetbikes consolidate d6" and prepare to kill another 300 POINT UNIT.

Imagine if the bikes would have been able to reach the Tervigon and have it make 18 3+ No Retreat saves?

Sure the unit's expensive, but they do amazing things.

By the way, in case you're wondering, YES, they usually only lose TWO TO THREE MODELS to even the craziest things, like three Punisher Leman Russes, 3 shots from a Manticore, an all power weapon assault squad (vets, DC, etc).

3+ (armor) / 4+ (invul) / 5+ ("Conceal" cover) plus a re-roll is HOT.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026745.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
I'd be happy for the eldar to charge and wipe out a 10 man squad of gaunts to put them in range for my turn. Remaining 20 gaunts shoot again and the unit is then charged by flyrant, shrikes, stealers.

With shadow in the warp that's also a big risk for each warlock taking it's psy test.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026781.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
ruminator wrote:With shadow in the warp that's also a big risk for each warlock taking it's psy test.

Hence the 12" flight and 6" assault. Doom and Fortune are cast at the start of the Eldar turn so they're conveniently out of range of Shadow In The Warp before they leap in, farting in the Tyranids general direction.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026793.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026793.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
First, Shadow in the Warp will be a big help, as after that 1st turn movement, the Eldar council will most definetely be in range.

Second, remember that eldar can't cast psychic powers and turboboost, and since the powers are cast at the beginning of the turn, cannot be cast on the turn they come on from reserves. (Although both are open to interpretation, see YMDC threads)

Third, the council is not fearless. All you have to do is smoke the Farseer with S6 in CC, and the rest of the council will fall. Most of the big scary tyrants and such should be able to do this, and you know he will be coming for you in CC anyway.

Deathleaper lowering leadership will give the Farseer a tough time getting his powers off with Shadow of the Warp in effect, and will also make the council more likely to run away if they lose a fight in CC as well.

Remember, that any bug you can get a decent save on, through FNP or what have you, will fair pretty well against the seer council since even though they wound on 2+, they don't count as power weapons. (Do nids have any 2+ save beasties?)

The seer council has several glaring weaknesses much like Nob Bikers that can be exploited, you just have to go for them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026809.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Just tarpit them with guants. Backed up with a Tervigon casting its power (catalist? which ever gives FnP) and the concils stuck. Also once in combat throw all your attacks (well the max you can) at the farseer; once the farseer is dead they loose the rerolls and should crumble.

But most importantly keep the big guys clear of them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026818.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Tri wrote:Look the biggest asset of the seer council is they wound anything on a 2+ and they have a 4++ save that is rerollable (3++ on bikes)

Just tarpit them with guants. Backed up with a Tervigon casting its power (catalist? which ever gives FnP) and the concils stuck. Also once in combat throw all your attacks (well the max you can) at the farseer; once the farseer is dead they loose the rerolls and should crumble.

But most importantly keep the big guys clear of them.


1. No, they don't have a 3++, just a 3+/4++ re-roll anything.
2. Please take the time to READ the thread you're posting in, where I easily explain that the silly gaunts are NOT a tar-pit. Less gaunts with FnP does not mean they're better, in fact they're worse and will still lose and die due to No Retreat.

As for White Dragon, remember that two of the Seer Council (if built correclty) should have Embolden, which allows a re-roll of the Leadership tests.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026837.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026837.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Grundz wrote:right, also devourer gaunts, if you can catch the council outside of combat you can put a horrendous amount of wounds on them.


Okay, I'm gonna show you guys how pointless this all has been. This unit is OP for a reason, and here's why:


except for the following
-you always screen devourer gaunts with something
-assaulted front unit likely have feel no pain, i dont know the str of seer council attacks, but was pretty sure it wasn't enough to bypass this
-you want the unit to be wiped out if assualted so you can mass-assault them next turn and gain full bonuses.

Lets assume that the person wasn't dumb and put something in front of his ap-nothing devourers and gets a full turn off, or the devourers were properly supported
--Full squad of bikers with fortune
--30 devourer gaunts, 2 squads of 8 gaunts lets say from tervi's, so 46 total tervigon, maybe a hive tyrant
11 bikers to start, 2 die from shooting lets say, so 9 starting close combat phase

WITHOUT PARADOXYM
gaunts attack at I5, so at the same time
92 attacks, 41 hits, 21 starting wounds, then 10ish more from poison reroll
31 wounds, even with good armor rerolls thats probably a dead squad

WITH PARADOXYM
gaunts attack at I5, so at the same time
92 attacks, around 60 hits
30 wounds , then another 15 more from reroll, dead unit note that with paradoxym you dont really even need the devourers.

Gargoyles will get similiar numbers with 1/6th more wounds due to blinding poison.
If the shattered remains of this squad don't wipe out all the attackers, its gg seers.

its /all/ about getting the charge, which is difficult.

Basically you want one the following
1. to have a fast unit that can get the assault off on seers, gargoyles, and play cat and mouse with them, keeping them out of combat longer.
2. a sponge of garbage gaunts that will absorb the seer's assault.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026866.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
End of the day kill the farseer and its over.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026877.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
@ Grundz - No. Gaunts will NEVER charge the Seer Council, or the player using them is "doing it wrong". FURTHERMORE, that would mean that the Gaunts would NOT get the re-roll in combat because they would remain S3 vs T4. IN ADDITION, you're talking about a TON of models in that set-up there. The SMART Eldar player will hold the council back and light-up those units willy-nilly until they're ready to charge with them. That doesn't mean a "win" for Tyranids, as they still have a problem of mobility where Eldar excel in that very spot. AND EVEN THEN, YOU'RE forgetting that the Farseer will have Runes of Warding (same as Shadow in the Warp) across the table. So the Seer Council casts 18" away (successfully) and THEN charges in so that they have the bonuses. AND FINALLY, you're forgetting about this concept of Multi-Assault, where the Seer Council involves some of those Tervigons and makes them poop themselves as they die from No Retreat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026893.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:No. Gaunts will NEVER charge the Seer Council, or the player using them is "doing it wrong". FURTHERMORE, that would mean that the Gaunts would NOT get the re-roll in combat because they would remain S3 vs T4. IN ADDITION, you're talking about a TON of models in that set-up there. The SMART Eldar player will hold the council back and light-up those units willy-nilly until they're ready to charge with them. That doesn't mean a "win" for Tyranids, as they still have a problem of mobility where Eldar excel in that very spot. AND EVEN THEN, YOU'RE forgetting that the Farseer will have Runes of Warding (same as Shadow in the Warp) across the table. So the Seer Council casts 18" away (successfully) and THEN charges in so that they have the bonuses. AND FINALLY, you're forgetting about this concept of Multi-Assault, where the Seer Council involves some of those Tervigons and makes them poop themselves as they die form No Retreat.

So if all the high value units are screened with gaunts so you can't charge them what exactly does the council do? Just sit there?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026902.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Tri wrote:So if all the high value units are screened with gaunts so you can't charge them what exactly does the council do? Just sit there?

No, they go somewhere else.

If you're making a silly, jelly-filled doughnut with your army, it gets blasted apart by Fire Prisms and/or Night Spinners.

That Seer Council list has MORE THAN SEER COUNCIL IN IT. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026907.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:No. Gaunts will NEVER charge the Seer Council, or the player using them is "doing it wrong". FURTHERMORE, that would mean that the Gaunts would NOT get the re-roll in combat because they would remain S3 vs T4. IN ADDITION, you're talking about a TON of models in that set-up there. The SMART Eldar player will hold the council back and light-up those units willy-nilly until they're ready to charge with them. That doesn't mean a "win" for Tyranids, as they still have a problem of mobility where Eldar excel in that very spot. AND EVEN THEN, YOU'RE forgetting that the Farseer will have Runes of Warding (same as Shadow in the Warp) across the table. So the Seer Council casts 18" away (successfully) and THEN charges in so that they have the bonuses. AND FINALLY, you're forgetting about this concept of Multi-Assault, where the Seer Council involves some of those Tervigons and makes them poop themselves as they die form No Retreat.


-no one in their right mind would ever pile in with the tervigons
-gargoyles can get the assault just as easily as seers can get the assault on gaunts.
-while the sear council is dicking around trying to get around the gaunt screen so they can get the assault on something good, the tyranid player is stomping across the board and keeping 500+ points at bay, with gaunts, also with a big enough "phalanx" as it were, you are possibly leaving the seers dangerously close to outflanking genestealer territory, you are talking about a 12" assault bubble around a formation about 12" across in the middle of the board, and then 18" on either side, not leaving very much wiggle room for standard eldar dicking around with fast movement.
-I haven't had much problem with eldar template weapons doing huge amounts of damage to the formation since you usually have priority targets like hive guard or deep striking trygons to take the heat off of the poor gaunts. all they do is buy you time to stomp across the map
-Multi assault also does not work since you cannot move through units to assualt those in the back, again, spread out gaunts, a common tactic is to tank shock the gaunts then assault the tervi's, or shoot the gaunts to thin them out, luck, cover, and feel no pain can make this a risky operation to rely on killing enough to get off the assault.
-In the unlikely case you have extra elite slots, a venomthrope or 2 can also make your phalanx even more unattractive to assault with defensive grenades and forcing the bikers to take dangerous terrain.

-we're also making the wild assumption that the eldar player isn't a much better player than the tyranid one, but Ive faced seers a number of times and never had too much difficulty with them against reasonably skilled opponents.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026917.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Grundz wrote:-no one in their right mind would ever pile in with the tervigons
Seer Council piles into THEM.

Grundz wrote:-gargoyles can get the assault just as easily as seers can get the assault on gaunts.
Good. They die too, it's math.

Grundz wrote:-while the sear council is dicking around trying to get around the gaunt screen so they can get the assault on something good, the tyranid player is stomping across the board and keeping 500+ points at bay, with gaunts, also with a big enough "phalanx" as it were, you are possibly leaving the seers dangerously close to outflanking genestealer territory, you are talking about a 12" assault bubble around a formation about 12" across in the middle of the board, and then 18" on either side, not leaving very much wiggle room for standard eldar dicking around with fast movement.
I play Tyranids. Tervigons and Gaunts are NOT a reliable killy force. They's gaunts man! As for Stealers, please don't make me laugh. They do NOTHING to the Seer Council. The gaunts with buffs do substantially more, in fact.

Grundz wrote:-Multi assault also does not work since you cannot move through units to assualt those in the back, again, spread out gaunts, a common tactic is to tank shock the gaunts then assault the tervi's, or shoot the gaunts to thin them out, luck, cover, and feel no pain can make this a risky operation to rely on killing enough to get off the assault.
I never said "charge through the gaunts". However, refer to my post about the "jelly-filled doughnut" about grouping your units up.

Grundz wrote:-In the unlikely case you have extra elite slots, a venomthrope or 2 can also make your phalanx even more unattractive to assault with defensive grenades and forcing the bikers to take dangerous terrain.
Okay, and if we're going to sit here and 1-up units, let's discuss a 2,000 point army vs a 2,000 point army. Seriously, do NOT bring other units in to defend the tactic, when I can simply do the same irrelevant thing and explain that your non-IC Venomthropes are T4 and not immune to ID. GO GO Bright Lances! (And yes, they're worth a pot shot to drop the buffs it will grant).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026927.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
6 Destructors = 60 points

2 Emboldens = 10 points

2 Enhances = 30 points

Farseer with a Jetbike, Spirit stones, Doom and Fortune = 160 points

Points total: 710 points

710 points for a Seer council like the one given as example by dbgoldberg323.

And about a month of hardcore conversion work on all of them. If they were anything short of amazing, no one in their right mind would play them.

Just saying there's absolutely nothing cheap or broken about them. They work as intended.

'Nids no doubt have trouble against them, but it shouldn't be that hard singleing out the Farseer in close combat. Once he's dead, the Council follows. Deathstar? Certainly. Unbeatable? Certainly not. Risky to field? Without a doubt.

I'm just saying that to give you perspective at what such a unit costs and every army out there has ways to counter it. There's nothing cheesy about it. In fact, it takes a lot of hard work and experience with the hobby to convert the Council and that is by no means "bad for the hobby".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026947.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
this thread is about seers @ a 1500 point level which will have limited support options, you may want to read the thread in its entirety again.

Since this thread is about how to deal with them, not how you can try to shoot down every option that has worked for other players in the past through fuzzy map like you seem to think, and you know the ins and outs of how any player will position any model or formation to attempt to foil you before they do or mention it, perhaps you can provide some insight into how /you/ would deal with them.

you might also want to read this thread as well: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/319323.page#1970287]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026955.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? 3 Bare Fire Prisms 345points (1050pts)
2x 10 Dire Avengers + exarch and blade storm in a WS 504pts (1554pts)
Need some fire dragons so 2x 5 + WS 360pts (1914pts)

Ok haven't spent 86pts but so far all i have is 48 models (including the 7 tanks) ... I'm unimpressed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2026994.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Tri wrote:Ok haven't spent 86pts but so far all i have is 48 models (including the 7 tanks) ... I'm unimpressed.

at 1500, there won't be 10 Council members, but 8 is more likely.

As for "not being impressed", no one asked. Eldar (with the exception of foot-dar lists) have low model counts, especially at 1500 points. Thanks, 4th Edition. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027006.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027019.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Acardia wrote:Fought them last night for the first time. Gargoyles followed with 3 Shrikes with the Parasite. Did wonders.

Wow! Grats! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027025.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Like any other dead 'ard unit, I think the best option is to bury them in wounds. SITW and a ton of little gribblies with FNP and Furious Charge should be able to at least tie the Council down and let the rest of your army deal with the rest of the Eldar.

Maybe it's just around here, but I find that a lot of Eldar players start with a few things in reserve as well, so you should be able to work that to your advantage as well.

My 2 cents.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027030.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027030.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027134.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Tri wrote:Ok haven't spent 86pts but so far all i have is 48 models (including the 7 tanks) ... I'm unimpressed.

at 1500, there won't be 10 Council members, but 8 is more likely.

As for "not being impressed", no one asked. Eldar (with the exception of foot-dar lists) have low model counts, especially at 1500 points. Thanks, 4th Edition.
... thats not a 1.5K list thats a 2K list. Oh and you saved 90-110pts big woop dee do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027147.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Tri wrote:.. thats not a 1.5K list thats a 2K list. Oh and you saved 90-110pts big woop dee do.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027195.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Tri wrote:.. thats not a 1.5K list thats a 2K list. Oh and you saved 90-110pts big woop dee do.

well go on then list you exact 1.5k list and show me how you do it. From everything I've seen Bike Councils are good but each model cost at least 45pts and thats what dooms it to failure vs nids.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027263.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? Responding only with orkmoticons is tantamount to spamming. Discussion in tactics requires respectful contributions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027300.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Screen a shadow-in-the-warp-er and simply wait for Fortune to fail on a Deathleaper-ed Farseer.

The Farseer is the lynchpin, as others have already pointed out.

And also, Marines have pretty much made the Jetseers an endangered species. I understand you're having a real tough time wth them; simply wait until he begins to bash his face into a psychic hooded Death Company squad with 3+ and FNP and watch your meta change.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027306.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Manchu wrote:Responding only with orkmoticons is tantamount to spamming. Discussion in tactics requires respectful contributions.

Relax, please. I wasn't offensive and I wasn't "spamming". The super sweet Orky GIF's happen to be fairly detailed.

So, translation:

"Um, 90-110 points is not enough of a points decrease at 1500 points? You're silly."

--edit--
And you guys are forgetting that SitW is negated by Runes of Witnessing. WHO CARES about SitW. Ld 10 yo, Ld 10!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027308.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027308.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Manchu wrote:Responding only with orkmoticons is tantamount to spamming. Discussion in tactics requires respectful contributions.

Relax, please. I wasn't offensive and I wasn't "spamming". The super sweet Orky GIF's happen to be fairly detailed.

So, translation:

"Um, 90-110 points is not enough of a points decrease at 1500 points? You're silly."
... Not when the rest of the unit still costs 520+ points ... Second time I'll ask; show me your 1.5k list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027313.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
--edit--
And you guys are forgetting that SitW is negated by Runes of Witnessing. WHO CARES about SitW. Ld 10 yo, Ld 10!


Not against Deathleaper. Ld 7-9 yo, Ld 7-9!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027344.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
sourclams wrote:
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Ld 7-9 yo, Ld 7-9!

Avg Ld on 2d6 is 7 yo, 7!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tri wrote: ... Not when the rest of the unit still costs 520+ points ... Second time I'll ask; show me your 1.5k list.

I don't play Space Elves, I just know what they do (I happen to read most codexes). I'm not the best person BY FAR to ask on these boards on how to make a 1500 pt Seer Council list.

But here's a stab at it. Remember, 1500 points hurts bugs too. There won't be so many big nasties in 1.5k...

1,500 Points - Eldar

HQ
Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Guide)
5x Warlocks (Jetbike, 1x Enhance, 3x Destructor, 1x Embolden)

Elite
5x Fire Dragons + Exarch (7 models) (Exarch has Dragon's Breath Flamer and Crack Shot)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Troops
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Heavy Support
Fire Prism (Holo Field, Spirit Stones)
2x War Walkers (2x Scatter Lasers each)

Tactics
One Dire Avenger unit deploys near an objective (or goes into reserve in Kill Points), and with cover and defend, they are fantastic at holding objectives. Keep the War Walkers nearby for support (though they are nice on the offensive). Use the 2 Wave Serpents and the Fire Prism to pick off what you need. What the Seer Council can't deal with for more than a turn, Bladestorm/Fusion Gun it. PS: NO shadow in the warp for you, and your powers DO need to roll 3d6 and take the two highest. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027349.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027361.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
sourclams wrote:You will fail to roll a 7 or below on 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.

You will fail to roll a 3 (on the d3 roll) consistently. At this point you're being optimistic and unreasonable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027365.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
If they are mequed then you have a problem since the nerf on nids. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027366.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027370.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027370.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
But here's a stab at it. Remember, 1500 points hurts bugs too. There won't be so many big nasties in 1.5k...

1,500 Points - Eldar

HQ
Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Guide)
5x Warlocks (Jetbike, 1x Enhance, 3x Destructor, 1x Embolden)

Elite
5x Fire Dragons + Exarch (7 models) (Exarch has Dragon's Breath Flamer and Crack Shot)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Troops
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Heavy Support
Fire Prism (Holo Field, Spirit Stones)
2x War Walkers (2x Scatter Lasers each)

Tactics
One Dire Avenger unit deploys near an objective (or goes into reserve in Kill Points), and with cover and defend, they are fantastic at holding objectives. Keep the War Walkers nearby for support (though they are nice on the offensive). Use the 2 Wave Serpents and the Fire Prism to pick off what you need. What the Seer Council can't deal with for more than a turn, Bladestorm/Fusion Gun it. PS: NO shadow in the warp for you, and your powers DO need to roll 3d6 and take the two highest.
Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.
Farseer has 3 powers. Sure its nice to be able to choose but do you really need to guide?
5 fire dragons + exarch = 5 firedragons ... even if you count the exarch as another model it would still only be 6models ...they don't need an exarch they're good enough as is ... not to mention that you've given crack shot to a model with only a flamer
Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML
Fireprism ... why the hell are you taking anything on this? Take Prisms bare.

I'd slaught this with all my armies... heck If i had them Tau and Necrons could do it as well. When building an eldar list you start by filling in your heavy supports once thats done Elites ...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027405.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
sourclams wrote:You will fail to roll a 7 or below on 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.


and you didn't pick that up from the previous replies in this thread?
I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027409.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:.....

how did you get 7 models on FD? 5+1=6
counsil on your list is joke
torrent of fire will kill them fast

otherwise that list looks like nice snack for my eldar

and check faq
seer w/Row roll 2d6 versus the shadow]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027421.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Devastator wrote:
and check faq
seer w/Row roll 2d6 versus the shadow


I'll have to do that, last I checked the ruling was 4d6, pick lowest 3 but this was a while back.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027431.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
My suggestion is play death leaper and see how hot his farseer can get with a Ld 7-9 to get off his one fortune and doom. With enhance he is also counting on 5 WS and 2+ wound to carry the day. Try tyrannid prime with warriors. He will not appreciate him only hitting on 4s and you hitting on 3s. Tack in poisoned attacks and he won't be happy.

Again with all his points in this one basket the other option is ignore it as much as possible and destroy the rest. He should be dying in objective games with that much in a non scoring unit. Just concentrate on his troop choices and laugh in every objective-based game.

FNP through Catalyst or the tyrant ability that makes him WS 1 are also options but then you are counting on psychic against eldar - not really good.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027456.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Tri wrote:Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.
Get off your high horse and quit trying to troll like me.

Tri wrote:Farseer has 3 powers. Sure its nice to be able to choose but do you really need to guide?
Yeah, though if you don't play Eldar, I suppose you have no idea what it's for. It's okay, I won't tell ya.

Tri wrote:5 fire dragons + exarch = 5 firedragons ... even if you count the exarch as another model it would still only be 6models ...they don't need an exarch they're good enough as is
He provides much needed "blinder" removers. Now they do more than ONE thing.

Tri wrote:... not to mention that you've given crack shot to a model with only a flamer
Ever heard of re-rolling wounds? Guess not.

Tri wrote:Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML
No. You need these Bright Lances for armor hunting and T4 EW Wanna-Be popping.

Tri wrote:Fireprism ... why the hell are you taking anything on this? Take Prisms bare.
Durability, and if it gets stunned (can and will hapen), it can STILL MOVE to reposition. It's called tactics. There's a whole thread on this stuff somewhere...

Tri wrote:I'd slaught this with all my armies... heck If i had them Tau and Necrons could do it as well. When building an eldar list you start by filling in your heavy supports once thats done Elites ...
Useless argument is in relation to this thread. Nice try, thanks for playing.

Grundz wrote:I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.
ARE YOU SERIOUSLY trying to tell me "how things work" with Eldar, and you don't know the rules that you're arguing against? Yes, simply, SitW and Runes of Witnessing negate eachother (IF shadow is in it's puny 12" range).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027510.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027510.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Tri wrote:Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML
No. You need these Bright Lances for armor hunting and T4 EW Wanna-Be popping.

ever heard EML?


dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Tri wrote:Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.
Get off your high horse and quit trying to troll like me. .




angry troll is angry]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027530.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Devastator wrote:ever heard EML?
Ever heard of AV13+?

devastator wrote: angry troll is angry
Nah, just havin fun. Tonight's my LGS's 40k night, so I'm pumped to put this to the test.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027544.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? I have had enough of this disruptive, argumentative posting. Everyone involved can cease now or be given suspensions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027599.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Cease and Desist order acknowledged.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027624.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027633.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? OP WAS discussing 1500 in the first post, I guess that's the question, can Eldar really do Seer Council correctly at 1500?

2,000? Sure, no problem.

2,500? Two of them, no problem.

1,500? Eh? Dunno. The guys have brought up some good points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2027650.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Tri wrote:Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.
Get off your high horse and quit trying to troll like me.

Tri wrote:Farseer has 3 powers. Sure its nice to be able to choose but do you really need to guide?
Yeah, though if you don't play Eldar, I suppose you have no idea what it's for. It's okay, I won't tell ya.
If you want your Farseer TL-units guns thats fine but theres not much point if he's going to be charging into combat.

Tri wrote:5 fire dragons + exarch = 5 firedragons ... even if you count the exarch as another model it would still only be 6models ...they don't need an exarch they're good enough as is
He provides much needed "blinder" removers. Now they do more than ONE thing.
Crack shot lets his shooting ignore cover and reroll wounds ...and its a heavy flamer in a unit of meltas wasting the highest BS model. Something’s wrong if fire dragons are needed for a heavy flamer … and he costs 33pts.
Tri wrote:... not to mention that you've given crack shot to a model with only a flamer
Ever heard of re-rolling wounds? Guess not.

Tri wrote:Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML
No. You need these Bright Lances for armor hunting and T4 EW Wanna-Be popping.

Any Eldar play knows that EML are better because they are multi functional. If I want to hunt AV13+ that’s what the dragons are for.

Tri wrote:Fireprism ... why the hell are you taking anything on this? Take Prisms bare.
Durability, and if it gets stunned (can and will hapen), it can STILL MOVE to reposition. It's called tactics. There's a whole thread on this stuff somewhere...
May be just may be at 2000pts I would take stones ... but holofields are pushing it. There’s just so many other things that should be taken first

Tri wrote:I'd slaught this with all my armies... heck If i had them Tau and Necrons could do it as well. When building an eldar list you start by filling in your heavy supports once thats done Elites ...
Useless argument is in relation to this thread. Nice try, thanks for playing.
How so I build all comers armies ... sure if I know what I’m facing i can tailor them to be perfect counters but where is the challenge in that? Your seer army will fail vs. any balanced army that knows how to deal with it. Kill the Farseer then grind away the warlock without the trouble some reroll.

I am an Eldar player. I’ve been playing with them since their last codex and I miss 4th. Back then we could walkover people in combat fire are defensive str6 weapons and generally out manoeuvre everyone. Now we can’t: don’t get me wrong we’ve still got some damn fine units but you need to use them right.

Spending over a third on one unit is not doing it right. Especially when that unit has a glaring weakness, the farseer. He has no eternal warrior, he is only T3[4], he has only 3 wounds. Sure he can reroll his saves… as a nid play just aim every thing at him who cares if it’s a 3+ with a reroll terminators fail their 2+ all the time.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028029.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? Welcome to Seer Council opposite day

Seer Council are 45 points each & T4, but they have a 75% invo while fortune is up.

It takes 4 Railgun wounds to drop a single Seer Council.

Chance per railgun hit 5/6 wound 1/4 kill=5/24 hits kill a Seer Council

It takes 4 boltgun wounds to drop a single Seer Council

Chance per boltgun hit 1/2 wound 1/4 kill=1/8 aka 3/24 hits kill a seer council, but with rapid fire 6/24 rapid fire shots kill a seer council.

Against Seer council a single tac marine outguns a single Tau Broadside

Like I said when fighting seer council it's opposite day.

In the case of tyranids the humble gaunt outguns hive guard. High str, High AP, and power weapons have no real bonus against seer council. All that really matters is the volume of shots, so units like gaunts, warriors with devourers, and raveners with spinefists are the ideal anti seer council units ie the least competitive units when fighting mechanized MEQ.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028132.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Grundz wrote:
sourclams wrote:You will fail to roll a 7 or below on 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.


and you didn't pick that up from the previous replies in this thread?
I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.

Eldar 2008 FAQ wrote:Q: How do the Runes of Witnessing work when facing a Hive Tyrant with Shadow in the Warp?
A. The Runes neutralize the effect of Shadow in the Warp for that Farseer, so that Farseer will take Psychic tests using 2d6, as normal.


However the FAQ is referencing the old 2004 Tyranid codex which has a completely different Shadow in the Warp from the current codex. Personally I'd play it the way the Eldar FAQ handles Runes of Witnessing and Runes of Warding at the same time, with Perils on double 1s and 6s instead of 12+, since the new SitW has similar wording to Runes of Warding, except for what causes Perils.
Eldar FAQ wrote:Proceed as follows: when the Farseer attempts to use a psychic power, roll 3d6. Consider the two lowest results for the purpose of passing the test (ignoring the highest result). Then, if the total of the 3d6 was 12 or more, the Farseer suffers a Perils in the Warp attack (do not do this if the Farseer has already suffered such an attack because of the two lowest results being double 1 or double 6)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028157.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
But the fact of the matter is, tarpit the Council for a turn or two and attack the rest of the thinly spread army. At 2000 points, it's not as tough making the rest of the army workable, but just imagine what you had put in your army for those 650 points that the Eldar player spent on a single unit. Those 650 points are enough for 3 Wave Serpents with bladestorming Dire Avengers inside, among other things. I don't know about you, but if I was a Tyranid player, I'd fear that a lot more than the Council.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028255.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Secondly, I did forget to post the list I was using. I have access to every models listed in the tyranid codex, so I'm very open minded making changes to the list if needed.

HQ

Prime - sword/whip, toxin sac

Elites

2x hive guards
2x hive guards
2x zoans + pod

Troops

Tervigon - catalyst, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines
Tervigon - catalyst, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines
10x termagants
11x termagants
5x stealers
5x stealers

Heavy

Trygon
Trygon

After reading all the posts + studying and mapping out the game play, the list I was playing is kind of a fail. I don't have enough fast units, on top of that, none of them are durable to lock them in combat.

Sure, I have FNP, but playing against eldar's map wide anti psychic. It's not reliable enough to pull it off while my models are in the right position (I roll very poorly). As you can see, I do have units that can instant death that farseer, but like many of you guys stated, he does not pull the farseer B2B against my trygon or tervigon. He would bubble wrap it so the farseer stays out of the fight against instant death models. Even I do get the charge, his farseer is nowhere at the front line.

As some of you guys suggested, shadow of the warp helps against them. Do their powers cancel out each other, so the farseer will be rolling only 2 dices for psychic test?

some of you suggested using gargoyles to tar-pit them. Since they have the same speed as the councils, I will need some more practices eye-balling the distant and dance with them on the board. On top of that, I need to count the flamer distant. Will need a lot of practices to get it right for me.

I ran 3 units of 4 Shrikes with sword/whip + toxin sacs.

The list was like this

HQ
Tervigon - catalyst

Elites
2x hive guards
2x hive guards
2x hive guards

Troops
Tervigon - catalyst
10x termagants
5x stealers
5x stealers

Fast
4x shrikes - sword/whip, toxin sacs
4x shrikes - sword/whip, toxin sacs
4x shrikes - sword/whip, toxin sacs

He's a skillful player. He would run away from of shrikes the whole game so he have the time to soften them with shots, and then finish them off with whatever in range. Perhaps I should DS the shrikes instead of running them up? Then I would have no guarantee they will be in FNP range. Not that I can get FNP off. So much perils. curse my dice rolling skill.


Deathleaper sounds like a start. I took it out since so much mech players even in the 1,500 pts bracket. He'll get some table time this weekend, hopefully it brings death to the seer.

Since we play the standard missions in the rule book, maybe MSU is not a good idea?

I will also try a 5 or 6 warriors brood with prime idea this weekend. I will surely report back. In the main time, I'll look forward to ideas.

I'm not letting him go until I beat him.

Thank you very much



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2028841.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
New Player wrote:
As you can see, I do have units that can instant death that farseer, but like many of you guys stated, he does not pull the farseer B2B against my trygon or tervigon. He would bubble wrap it so the farseer stays out of the fight against instant death models. Even I do get the charge, his farseer is nowhere at the front line.


You are aware of this rule?

"When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characte5rs that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible." (49)

So when you get the charge, or in a pile-in, the farseer has to move first.

It is possible for a skilled player to follow this rule and still keep an independent character like a farseer out of base contact with the big bugs a lot of the time. But if he's cheating you by just refusing to move the farseer first, then you can call him on it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029229.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? hth they are more than a match, especially since all the wounds are strength 6. If the farseer dies from instant death, fortune goes away. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029237.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Flavius Infernus wrote:
New Player wrote:
As you can see, I do have units that can instant death that farseer, but like many of you guys stated, he does not pull the farseer B2B against my trygon or tervigon. He would bubble wrap it so the farseer stays out of the fight against instant death models. Even I do get the charge, his farseer is nowhere at the front line.


You are aware of this rule?

"When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characte5rs that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible." (49)

So when you get the charge, or in a pile-in, the farseer has to move first.

It is possible for a skilled player to follow this rule and still keep an independent character like a farseer out of base contact with the big bugs a lot of the time. But if he's cheating you by just refusing to move the farseer first, then you can call him on it.


Good call on that one. That's another question I had on my mind. I remember reading about that rule before. However, let me know if he did this correctly.

He bubble wrap the farseer. So let say 3 warlocks are staying before the farseer; each warlock is spaced about 1 inch apart. When I assault, my trygon can only get in b2b with the warlocks. Now comes pile in, since the gap between the warlocks is not big enough to push the farseer's base to touch base with the Trygon, he just move the farseer to behind the warlocks. He stated that, models have to move in the shortest distant trying to make base contact, since the gap is not big enough, so the farseer stays behind. What do you think? I also have seen people move models jump over models to get in base contact during the pile in move.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029893.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029904.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029904.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
First of, Shadow in the Warp will help against the inevitable fortune.

No, it doesn't.
If the Farseer has RoWit then both, RoWit and SitW cancel. See the Eldar FAQs.
My experience tells me that a Seer Council is unstoppable for horde armies. Too bad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029921.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Tri wrote:No he's thinking of units moving through other units. The farseer and the warlocks are one unit and the farseer piles in first.


Ok, so the farseer piles in first. Let say the gaps between the warlocks are too small for the farseer to move through, does the farseer jump over to make base contact? or does the farseer just stay behind the warlocks?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029932.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2029932.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
New Player wrote:
Tri wrote:No he's thinking of units moving through other units. The farseer and the warlocks are one unit and the farseer piles in first.


Ok, so the farseer piles in first. Let say the gaps between the warlocks are too small for the farseer to move through, does the farseer jump over to make base contact? or does the farseer just stay behind the warlocks?
... no but he can go round. The only way that he can't is if he has models all the way round him with less room then his base between them. If they are set out in such a pattern then they are blast fodder. Try it your self place the models as he did and see if you can move the farseer round.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2030049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2030049.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Tri wrote:
New Player wrote:
Tri wrote:No he's thinking of units moving through other units. The farseer and the warlocks are one unit and the farseer piles in first.


Ok, so the farseer piles in first. Let say the gaps between the warlocks are too small for the farseer to move through, does the farseer jump over to make base contact? or does the farseer just stay behind the warlocks?
... no but he can go round. The only way that he can't is if he has models all the way round him with less room then his base between them. If they are set out in such a pattern then they are blast fodder. Try it your self place the models as he did and see if you can move the farseer round.


Interesting tips, I'll surely try it today. Thank you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2030225.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2030225.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid? this thread made me lol

@Dave: calm down now, we wouldn't want you to hurt someone again...
remember that last guy?
he's still in the hospital

@People that don't know the Eldar codex: RoWit negate SitW and roll 2d6 as normal (and even without them the ghosthelm negates perils on a 3+ (AND WARLOCKS DON'T NEED A PSYCHIC TEST))
it's a 3+/4++ save that's re-rollable not a 3++
and those crafty space elves that just wiped up your squad in the shooting phase can move 6" in the assault to prepare for the next turn thanks to their bikes

@People that don't know basic statistics and math skills
GO BACK TO SCHOOL!
and stop wishing that your dice will roll high just because you want them to prove a point
because in reality sometimes they roll low
it's a fact of life


anyways....
Noto rant over


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote:I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.

they do
standing in a transport does too
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2034934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2034934.page GMT How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
Even a single council at 600 points plus 300 for a pair of farseers on bikes seems a bit rough at 1,500.

It just seems that if the seer council is going to eat up over half the eldar armies points maybe the best course of action would be to wipe out the other half of the eldar army 1st, especially his troops.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2035233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2035233.page GMT Re:How do you deal with seer council with Tyranid?
schadenfreude wrote:
It takes 4 boltgun wounds to drop a single Seer Council

Since we're talking about jetbikes, that's incorrect. It takes 9 boltgun wounds to kill a single Warlock on a Jetbike with a Fortuned save.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2036369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322559/2036369.page GMT