Latest posts for the thread "CSM vs Orkz"

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Hey guys, I had a game vs 2 friends of mine. One was an Ork player, the other a SM player, this is more about the Orkz than the SM though but i realized something scary in that game.

Whats the best method of handling a green tide army? i find CSM cost 2-3x more than an Ork boy and in CC (as long as Ork gets the charge for # of attacks and gets his 4S) that Orkz destroy me in melee. Yes I know Orkz are suppose to be powerful in melee, but I've been told CSM are also powerful in melee. I managed to 50% of 2 30boy sluggah squads that had a powerklaw, bosspole, and an entire 12 man ard boy squad w/ a powerklaw nob. They remaing squads of 15 clashed with 2 5 man plasma gun, plague marine squads w/ powerfist and they just got eaten alive! I always read that the idea is to kill as many orkz as possible before you engage them, so rushing at them doesn't quite sound too ideal... But facing a lot of powerklaw attacks can be horrific against plague marines as their instant deathed, no armor save, and no FNP.

I did manage to kill a 10 man SM squad with 1 Battlecannon shot on my first turn, I didnt lose a single model until the beginning of turn 4. Then it all came apart, heres an example of my list.

HQ: Demon Prince, MoT, GoC, Wings

Elite: Terminators x 8, heavy flamer, 2 combi flamers

Dreadnaught w/ x2 CCW

Troops: x2 x5 terminators w/ 2 plasma guns, champ w/ powerfist

x10 lesser demons

Heavy: x5 havocs w/ x4 autocannons

x5 havocs w/ 4 missle launchers

Defiler, x2 CCW.

Defiler got immoblized turn 1 by an lascannon, but as i said killed the enemy squad outright. Dreadnaught was immobilized but killed 10 Ard Boyz, w/ the lesser daemons cleaning it up with him. Autocannon havocs shot at 1 boy squad, missle launchers at another.. buildings blocked pie plates. Plague marines constantly shot into the boy squads as well. Terminators/Demon Prince were engaged with the SM players terminators, i turned 2 guys into spawns, and sadly forgot 1 turn to roll my GoC.. the ability seems to hit often and seems to be quite effective way of turning termies to goo.

I had to deploy first, the idea was to place the prince and the termies near the orkz to utilize the heavy flamer and 2 combi flamers.. but that didnt happen on their deployment..

I know this is a tactics area and this is why i came here.

I feel that the terminators may of been a bad choice, I'm always worried about troops that are so few and can easily be dispatched by powerklaws, ap1/ap2 weapons at a range but i wanted something tough to run with my prince. To be honest the way it worked out is a point i had to capture was around a chunk of impassble terrain and the princes base got in the way for getting my terminators in base constant on a charge and it made me only able to hit with a few models.. im thinking of having lesser daemons go in with him as he was the only one in the combat actually killing stuff effectively, bad luck perhaps though.

Lesser Daemons, I used them in a game first at 1000pts, and i killed 14 orkz after they deepstriked in. We learned later that you cant assault even after a deepstrike, i thought demons could but I read it in a rules.. well we learn something new every game and its all fun! (i also lost^^. I'm thinking at 20 they'd become a lot more effective, also a friend told me i could possibly take them as "allies" and use their rules from the daemon codex? I read up on them, 3pts more in cost, but their all power weapons, and furious charge.. and a few other abilities. Is this true ? Id' definately spend 3pts a model to give power weapons ! hah

Havocs Autocannons: Always a good choice so far, no light vehicles to kill but my friend often has a truck or kans.. so that was a precaution.. also their good at killing orkz rather than heavy bolters i find.

Havocs missle launchers: did okay but he spread his guys out, so usually i got 1 guy on a direct hit, 2 on a scatter.. but often wounding was hard.. i felt maybe autocannons would of got me more but i wanted to try it out.

Plague Marines: these babies have never done me wrong, but I have to say this game they got steam rolled, getting cut down by powerklaw attacks makes having 5 guys pain.. and i wish i had the prince over there.

Defiler: earned his points back turn 1 by killing a 10man SM squad w/ a lascannon, sadly he was immobilized and 1 pieplate killed 2 orkz on a scatter.. and end of turn 5 i shot at 12 orkz in a risky situation.. and scattered over killing 3/5 plague marines in 1 of my squads.

Dreadnaught: did a lot of damage, was ignored as well! i wish i let him have his heavy flamer or something as he didnt go crazy.

Daemon Prince: MoT 4+ invunerable helped, ill likely take it next time.. everyone told me Gift of chaos was a bad thing.. but i have to say every turn i was killing a terminator with it. MoT allows 2 spells cast ( right?) and i was landing 1 a turn on him. I also had a question, monstrous creatures fire ranged weapons twice, and Tzneetchian princes can cast 2 spells... Can i cast shooting weapon spells twice? i saw so much up in the air about it. As firing 2 bolts of change while i move up the field would be a nice hidden anti- armor weapon.

I feel vs a horde maybe replace plague marines w/ groups of CSM armed with flamers prehaps would do a better job? maybe a 5man chosen squad w/ flamers as well to beef up the templates.. I've taken flamers in the past and find im always charged first.. but I was thinking of a Lash of Submission Prince would give me some control so i could flamer enemies easier.

Any thoughts? my main concern is these damn mushrooms! .. i mean orkz!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch the question about the Chaos demons in a CSM codex.. i read that they were stripped from 5th Ed CSM. I guess not a lot of CSM players are happy they lost most of their demons in 5th ed to a static demon profile that applies to any demon... boo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im also thinking of dropping the prince for a daemon weapon wielding khorne chaos lord for CC as I read that Monstrous Creatures cant allocate wounds to the squad cause they can be picked out in ranged combat from the squad.. cause their monstrous. But non-monstrous are fine.

CSM vs Orkz

Ealiom — GMT

In short.
Chaos Terminators aren't very good vs Orks. The sheer volume of attacks will see terminators dying to an Ork charge.
Their power weapon attacks are largely useless due to the fact that Orks have a very bad armour save as it is.
8 Terminators attacking will not kill as many as 16 CSM.

I'm assuming the terminators listed under your troops was a typo since you can't take Chaos Terminators as troops.

The Tzeentch Daemon Prince isn't a good option against Orks neither is the gift of Chaos power. Slaanesh Prince with the Lash of submission is perfect. But many people scoff at its use. Other option would be a Nurgle prince with warptime.

4 Missile launchers are better than autocannons imho. People may disagree throwing around some math but if an Ork player is fielding a nob squad ive found those missile launchers can be very effective.

Also plasma guns are next to useless against Orks. Either flamers for mass bakeage or meltas to pop kans/battlewagons etc.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Yeah typo on the Terminators.

Terminators were to combat his friend. It was 750 orkz , 750 SM vs 1500 me. So i took terminators to combat his terminators, and ran them behind a building where he was camping an objective.

From how it reads Gift of chaos turns the selection model into a spawn or a pile of goo. Meaning I get to pick what dies, like a Nob leading a squad, or a HQ, stating since no wounds are taken no saves are made. It sounds incredibly powerful for offing units leading squads and heroes.. or am i reading this wrong?

I usually take nurgles rot w/ MoN vs Orkz, i find it cleans up.. ill have to try warptime.

As with the missle launchers i suppose vs orkz they could be.. even when i scattered I atleat hit 1 ork model but wounding them was hard since frag missles arnt that tough.

I'm thinking of canning the plague marine sand just taking more CSM w/ flamers.. and yeah probably swapping out the termies for more CSM... and possibly a 5 man Chosen squad w/ flamers to really burn em up!

Thanks for the input.

CSM vs Orkz

Ailaros — GMT

one word: khorne

Orks are good because they put down a huge number of attacks, but that's about all. They are, ironically enough, very vulnerable to things that also put out a huge number of attacks (which your current army list has nothing of).

Replace those terminators with terminators with a mark of khorne, and everyone gets lightning claws, then laugh as they destroy mobz with ease. Alternately, berzerkers, or regular marines with MoK will put down a huge number of attacks. Double tapping them with bolters and then still getting 3 attacks BEFORE the boyz, even when they charge will put down an awful lot of green before they get a chance to really apply their large number of attacks. Once boy mobz start taking serious casualties, their killing power diminishes in a hurry, which CSM is plenty able to do.

That and you can always take summoned lesser demons to throw up an assault screen in front of your real units, allowing you to get the charge in on the boyz the next turn. Even a regular squad of CSM is going to put down a pretty serious amount of hurt on a boy mob if they get the charge in.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

I was thinking of fielding the khorne warriors but I hear you should put them in rhinos, i got nearly 20 khornee warriors but only 1 rhino :( I could probably proxy one though.

Out of the 6 games I've had this is honestly the first time i took terminators.. and the Khorne Claw setup made me drool a little..especially if they were all champions ( probably a waste i know).

but 8 terminators, with 4 attacks each, 5 on a charge.. and rerolling to wound with no armor saves. I'm going to say atleast 15 hit, which cuts his mob in half.. and likely i kill atleast 5-8 ( i did that game w/ all the buildings) with guns while he runs across.. so that would put him without Mob rule.

Question about mob rule and fearless, so long as theres 11+ boyz the mob is fearless. If i kill enough that the mob drops below 11 when we add up casualites in the end does he roll leadership or use the fearless rule? I know if he's above 11, he has fearless and when you lose combat by .. lets say 5 wounds he takes 5 wounds and gets his 6+ t-shirt saves. But I've seen bad ork rolls after killing 10 guys on a lesser daemon charge he loses another 5-6 cause he lost the combat by that many.

Does that make any sense what I'm asking?

You right, my army lacks a lot of attacks, i need to peel myself away from plague marines..damn you grandpa nurgle.. damn you.

Also the lash of submission i used one game was quite amazing.. i was impressed as i kept 1/2 30 boy squads at range the entire game so they couldnt shoot or assault.. LOS issues and.. not taking any really long ranged units meant i had nothing to shoot them with though as they lashed around (i usually rolled 10's). But I felt i was missing the combat effectiveness of the prince.. that a sorcerer would be better suited for that? I just like how much he tears up in CC.. and i can see lashing being useful ALL game.

Re:CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

If you felt you were missing the cvombat effectiveness, then try lashing them to you next time. Guarantee yourself the charge, with Lash

You don't need to pull away from plague marines, you need to use them well A good tradesmen doesn't blame his tools!

they should be squads of 7. First, it's nurgle's sacred number- your dice will already be more blessed! second, 5 mangs die quick. The amount of games I've won via a plague marine or two, the last two guys in the squad, sitting on an objective going "It's mine you er's!" and giving the opposing army the finger... 7 is the number you want. 5 is too minimum, and 10 is too many- they are expensive little buggers. And don't give them plasmaguns, unless your playing vs lots of marines. They love flamers and meltaguns too! With a rhino they can make a absolutely skull crackingly hard rock for orks. Lets say da boyz charge the rhino, after getting shot up of course coming in. What are they going to do? Blow your rhino? woop-de-do-dah. You're T5 with a 3+ save AND FNP, you don't care! I bet you any mob of orks cares about getting triple flamethrower-ed (combiweapon on sarge ). Depending on whats going on around the rest of the battlefield, the rest of the plague marines either boltpistol and charge, or just rapidfire them into the dirt. Lets say you do end up in a bit of a brawl with da boyz- this is where you're khornate marines/claw terminators come into play. Commonly referred to as "the hammer and anvil", your plague marines are your anvil-hard, can take big blows. Da boyz are the hot steel resting on the anvil, ready to be belted into the shape you want. And the hammer is the bezerkers/khorne claw terminators. They will belt your hot steel into the shape of your choice- which is always a highly mangled, broken and shattered piece of steel!

Honestly I could keep writing all morning but I just finished breakfast and I'm off to the gym but I'd suggest OP lurking around reading chaos army lists/batreps/threads, or just general strategy threads. I would recommend this thread to get you think about how transports can be used for shenanigans, This thread for some good tips for playing the game, and this thread for synergy, something that is needed both in the game and when list writing.

The last thing I'll mention is that you should remember you always have a right to look at your opponents list, and their codex, and their rules- and yours. Last time I checked (was a while ago and my CSM codex is at a friends house) your lesser daemons MUST have an icon to deepstrike, and you have not listed an Icon in your list. Also, IIRC about the rules for lesser daemons, they CAN assault when they arrive. And they must arrive via an Icon. Also reading a unit codex entry when you encounter it is a great way to understand your enemy- and I believe many many many a military mind has had something to say about knowing your enemy, and they have been saying it for a very very very long time

CSM vs Orkz

Ailaros — GMT

To be fair, though, plague marines really aren't the best here. With FNP, they are as tough to kill as terminators, but boy mobz are already good enough against terminators with sheer volume of attacks. Plus, the hidden klaw is a pain and a half.

More importantly, if you don't get the charge in against the boyz, the mob and the plague marines strike simultaneously, which is a death call for plague marines.

When you run the numbers, the best way to win against boyz is to kill them faster, not survive against them longer. The meager killing power of plague marines just isn't enough to make their increase in survivability sufficient.

There is a way to make nurgle competitive against boyz. It's called Rot. If nurgle is the way the OP wants to go, perhaps its time to break out a couple of sorcerers...

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

Ailaros wrote:To be fair, though, plague marines really aren't the best here. With FNP, they are as tough to kill as terminators, but boy mobz are already good enough against terminators with sheer volume of attacks. Plus, the hidden klaw is a pain and a half.

More importantly, if you don't get the charge in against the boyz, the mob and the plague marines strike simultaneously, which is a death call for plague marines.

When you run the numbers, the best way to win against boyz is to kill them faster, not survive against them longer. The meager killing power of plague marines just isn't enough to make their increase in survivability sufficient.

There is a way to make nurgle competitive against boyz. It's called Rot. If nurgle is the way the OP wants to go, perhaps its time to break out a couple of sorcerers...

Yeah you do that.

My plague-O's don't have too much trouble with the boyz though. If we are going to throw X unit at Y unit, then yeah da boyz are one of the best troops. I've never fought a mob of 30. I've seen them on the field, but I ain't fought one of them yet. Mobs of 10-20, yes, but never above that. And those twenty mobs tend to be spread out to avoid blasts and templates, so I've never taken on 20 boyz at once because they didn't get into range. The one time they WERE grouped up... well... didn't work so good.

Yeah the hidden powerklaw is a pain. Against trukk mobs, thats usually the ONLY pain. And big mobs are either unwieldy or asking for a smashing. So yeah, good tradesman? 'E don't blame 'is tools.

Re:CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

The last thing I'll mention is that you should remember you always have a right to look at your opponents list, and their codex, and their rules- and yours. Last time I checked (was a while ago and my CSM codex is at a friends house) your lesser daemons MUST have an icon to deepstrike, and you have not listed an Icon in your list. Also, IIRC about the rules for lesser daemons, they CAN assault when they arrive. And they must arrive via an Icon. Also reading a unit codex entry when you encounter it is a great way to understand your enemy- and I believe many many many a military mind has had something to say about knowing your enemy, and they have been saying it for a very very very long time

I thought Chaos Marks counted as icons? and interesting, is that a daemon only rule? Cause the rulebook said no moving/assaulting when we read it.

To be fair, though, plague marines really aren't the best here. With FNP, they are as tough to kill as terminators, but boy mobz are already good enough against terminators with sheer volume of attacks. Plus, the hidden klaw is a pain and a half.

More importantly, if you don't get the charge in against the boyz, the mob and the plague marines strike simultaneously, which is a death call for plague marines.

When you run the numbers, the best way to win against boyz is to kill them faster, not survive against them longer. The meager killing power of plague marines just isn't enough to make their increase in survivability sufficient.

There is a way to make nurgle competitive against boyz. It's called Rot. If nurgle is the way the OP wants to go, perhaps its time to break out a couple of sorcerers...

Agreed, the other gameas I was always giving my prince MoN and nurgles rot.. i loved seeming that many boyz die to a single spell, a spell that can also be used in CC :drools:.

To be honest i find after orkz charge they suffer greatly if locked in combat with plague marines. Boyz have 3S vs 5T is 6's to wound and i often save those.. indeed the powerklaw usually drops 2 plague marines a turn.

I think next game I will try squads of 10-20 CSM with a mark of khorne, armed with 2 flamers.. and possibly lash them within perfect flamer range. The reason I thought of 20 CSM is because large numbers vs orkz, and since Mark doesnt go up or down with squad sizes I would be making the most of my points. 20 CSM with a Mark of Khorne.. 3 attacks each.. and likely atleast 1 phase of shooting, and a 2nd phase of rapidfire/2flamers.. I can let the orkz charge me if i want and still hit first with nearly 60 attacks. If all goes well I was thinking of having a 5 man chosen squad with flamers sitting there as well to help flame them at the same time.

Re:CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

decoste007xt wrote:
Jihallah wrote:The last thing I'll mention is that you should remember you always have a right to look at your opponents list, and their codex, and their rules- and yours. Last time I checked (was a while ago and my CSM codex is at a friends house) your lesser daemons MUST have an icon to deepstrike, and you have not listed an Icon in your list. Also, IIRC about the rules for lesser daemons, they CAN assault when they arrive. And they must arrive via an Icon. Also reading a unit codex entry when you encounter it is a great way to understand your enemy- and I believe many many many a military mind has had something to say about knowing your enemy, and they have been saying it for a very very very long time

I thought Chaos Marks counted as icons? and interesting, is that a daemon only rule? Cause the rulebook said no moving/assaulting when we read it.

That is a LESSER daemon rule, IIRC. Read your codex! The rules for lesser daemons are in the lesser daemons entry! You can't assault when you deepstrike, but the rules in my codex says I can. Your codex tells you all about deploying lesser daemons and greater daemons requiring a sacrificial champ, read it! And a chaos mark is just a mark of one of the gods. The Icons give everyone in the unit a mark. Got that? an Icon GIVES you a mark. Is a mark an icon?

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Sorry its just a question. I've read my codex, and the rulebook.. theres a lot of information in both of them i dont expect myself to retain it all this fast.

The codex does state i may assault after deepstriking, but it also says Squad Icons are treated as personal icons with additional effects.

" These icons are available to squads, and each has an additional effect ontop of the one described in Icons and Deepstrike. "

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

decoste007xt wrote:Sorry its just a question. I've read my codex, and the rulebook.. theres a lot of information in both of them i dont expect myself to retain it all this fast.

thats what I mean though- Keep them at hand! The best way to learn the rules and codex info etc is to have them at hand, and read them as you encounter them. As in when an assault phase starts, go to the assault phase part of the rule book, and go through it step by step. 5 games later and you'll have it down pat. Not trying to have a go, more like tough love. Keep that book at hand ! And don't be afraid to read the entry for an opponents unit in THEIR codex- they might have it right in their head. They might not, and you might feel cheated! In fact, most cases of dodgy player shenanigans seem to be where one new player doesn't know his opponents army, so they make stuff up! If you encounter an enemy unit, read their stats- quickest way to learn

CSM vs Orkz

schan122 — GMT

decoste007xt wrote:

So i took terminators to combat his terminators

you know how they say fight fire with fire? in 40k that translates to shoot the shooty ones, chop the choppy ones. Choosing terminators to fight other terminators would be your first mistake. Choosing terminators in a game against a team with orks is your second mistake. You seem to believe you can guarantee your terminators to fight the other team's terminators? In such a case, what would you do if you find yourself facing a large mob of boyz? Terminators are great for a strong low model count unit, but a 2+ armor save (even a 3+ invul)...just read my signature

all i'm saying is, i've honestly played enough terminators to understand that if i were to ever play an MEQ army, i wouldn't waste the points if i'm up against a green tide

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Well you learn from every game, and like i posted origionally I've never used them in a game, i wanted to find out how they'd react.

I figured 8 terminators with 4A lightning claws or 5 on a charge would kill atleast 15 boys, cutting him in half.. either way they attack first. Terminators were with the Demon Prince as well.. and the terminators had 2 combi flamers, and 1 heavy flamer.

Next time its going to be mass numbers as suggested. I can plop down an army list that im building now, tell me if it sounds alright.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prince, MoN, Rot 145pts

x5 Chosen w/ 5 flamers, 125pts

x10 CSM, 2 flamers, Chaos Glory, Rhino w/ combi flamer, 215pts

x10 CSM, 2 flamers, Chaos Glory, Rhino w/ combi flamer, 215pts

Defiler, 1CCW, 1 heavy flamer 150pts

Havocs,x5 x4 missle launchersm 155pts

1005pts

Thinking of dropping the Chosen and a combi flamer for x5 havocs w/ 4 heavy bolters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually really want to do rhino castling.. but even on the list i posted.. I have 1 rhino and would have to acquire 2-3 more to make that sort of thing effective. To ebay i go!

CSM vs Orkz

Ailaros — GMT

also, flamers aren't necessarily the best against boyz. With their fleet on the WAAAUGH! you're probably not going to get to use flamers until after the first fight they win. After that point, they're probably not likely to be all that much of a threat. That and what happens when they win combat on your turn?

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

CSM arn't fearless so I'm not taking extra wounds, the mark insures i can reroll leadership, if i dont lose by that much that is. Maybe instead of flamers a heavy bolter? gives me more shots and with da boyz I just let them come to me? hammering down as many shots as i can?

Indeed WAAGH has screwed me over many times, I'm amazed how fast an Ork can move across the field, and my buddy usually rolls 5+'s on his run rolls. Or maybe the prince should have lash to help position them for a good flame.. but thats losing nurgles rot which has always done well.

CSM vs Orkz

Dean889 — GMT

I play orks and I always slaughter the CSM player in our group, he just can't deal with my numbers. Take templates/multi shot weapons, and make sure that YOU control the charge.

It's the biggest thing vs orks, and a lot of people don't seem to realize it. If you charge them, orks really aren't as good in CC. Take templates, use rhinos to stay mobile and control the charge, and you should do ok

Re:CSM vs Orkz

Lumppu — GMT

I play CSM myself and lose to my friend's orks pretty often, not because of the number of orks, but because of the klaws. Nobs with power klaws just tear everything apart and theres nothing to stop them. Of course i can take fists against them but i always pay the extra point price with marines, because of the armour save (which i dont rly need against klaws). So ork pretty much win eveery close combat.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread (because youve written alot ) so i dont know if you talked about klaws alrdy.

Huge mass of orks is easier to win with chaos, just get blast weapons and berzerkers.

CSM vs Orkz

Dark Apostle 666 — GMT

I advocate the khorne spammage approach - throwing Bezerkers at Ork boyz is great. I agree with the use of psyker tricks, I started running a Sorcerer with lash and some full bolter squads with heavy bolter and flamer, that 'lil combo can really screw up ork squads.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt of Change, Wind of chaos

Sorcerer, MoN, Nurgles Rot

x2 245 pts, 10 khorne berzerkers, rhino

x1 Havocs, 4 autocannons

205pts worth of prince im thinking thats too high. I gave him MoT, bolt of change and wind of chaos. The idea being is 1on1 my friend likes to take KillerKan walls, and daemon princes can fire their ranged weapons twice (bolt of change) as a Tzneetchian Psyker. Then wind of chaos twice when i get close enough to get glancing hits, and kill some orkz.

Sorcerer is what i was going to do with the Daemon Prince, MoN and Nurgles rot... Should i drop that idea, bring in a squad of CSM instead, and give the prince MoN and Nurgles rot? i know he does roll 2d6's vs vehicles, and will hit the kanz first.

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

decoste007xt wrote:Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt of Change, Wind of chaos

Sorcerer, MoN, Nurgles Rot

x2 245 pts, 10 khorne berzerkers, rhino

x1 Havocs, 4 autocannons

205pts worth of prince im thinking thats too high. I gave him MoT, bolt of change and wind of chaos. The idea being is 1on1 my friend likes to take KillerKan walls, and daemon princes can fire their ranged weapons twice (bolt of change) as a Tzneetchian Psyker. Then wind of chaos twice when i get close enough to get glancing hits, and kill some orkz.

Sorcerer is what i was going to do with the Daemon Prince, MoN and Nurgles rot... Should i drop that idea, bring in a squad of CSM instead, and give the prince MoN and Nurgles rot? i know he does roll 2d6's vs vehicles, and will hit the kanz first.

Your MC's can fire up to two weapons (not the same one twice) a turn at the same target. Bolt counts as a single weapon, so you can't double bolt unfortunately. It would be great if you could

If you want a DP to take on the kans, just go spartan prince. Wings, warptime. Cheaper than your current prince and beats down kans hard, especially when you fluff your hit rolls also will usually tear up 4 boyz a turn in CC- not the best on his own vs a mob, but throw a DP and a unit of X marines (your choice), and you'll lay some beatdown on da boyz.

With your 'zerkers in a rhino, I'll point out that ye cannot charge from the rhino, unless the rhino hasn't moved yet. So since you move 6" charge 6", and have a 2" bubble to deploy in, your target will be 14" or less away from you. So your rhino's probably gonna get charged by da boyz. Now as much as flamerthrowers are "bad" against orks, they seem to work, hmmm, "fantastically" for me in this situation, where the orks are forced to narrow down their coherency in the charge, and a) your rhino blows, you might lose a marine or two, and then you flame thrower and rapid fire da boyz into the dirt. or b) they fluff the rolls on the PK and you get to use your rhino like a bunker, flaming da boyz from the top hatch. Standing on foot waiting for the boyz to get close so you can flame them?... good tradesman, 'e don't blame 'is tools.

And I prefer 2Autocannons and 2 Missile launchers for my Havocs. I like ze blasts and krak missiles, I find they work well with the AC's

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Thanks! If i can get my hands on some rhinos i want to sub in zerkers for flamer CSM's or CSM flamers w/ the mark of khorne.

So badly I'd like to park up and load out with my units walling off the boys or castling.. it just sounds fantastic to try!

As for a spartan prince, i like the idea. I suppose 135 pts to slaughter 120pts of kanz is nice, he may be fielding 6 instead so that'd be 270pts... I just gotta back the prince up for sure.

CSM vs Orkz

schan122 — GMT

Dean889 wrote:I play orks and I always slaughter the CSM player in our group, he just can't deal with my numbers. Take templates/multi shot weapons, and make sure that YOU control the charge.

It's the biggest thing vs orks, and a lot of people don't seem to realize it. If you charge them, orks really aren't as good in CC. Take templates, use rhinos to stay mobile and control the charge, and you should do ok

check the tactics forum, i've already posted the mathhammer of MEQ's best chances of fighting a 30 squad of boyz. Regardless of weapon combination, using statistic odds of dice rolls (since everyone's dice rolls always suck) the ork squad will win in CC regardless of who charged. Of course if orks get the charge, its over that much faster.

CSM vs Orkz

Dean889 — GMT

schan122 wrote:
Dean889 wrote:I play orks and I always slaughter the CSM player in our group, he just can't deal with my numbers. Take templates/multi shot weapons, and make sure that YOU control the charge.

It's the biggest thing vs orks, and a lot of people don't seem to realize it. If you charge them, orks really aren't as good in CC. Take templates, use rhinos to stay mobile and control the charge, and you should do ok

check the tactics forum, i've already posted the mathhammer of MEQ's best chances of fighting a 30 squad of boyz. Regardless of weapon combination, using statistic odds of dice rolls (since everyone's dice rolls always suck) the ork squad will win in CC regardless of who charged. Of course if orks get the charge, its over that much faster.

CSM have an extra CC attack (2 CC weapons) and have polt pistols, so they can shoot before they charge too. Did you account for that? (I havn't actually mathhammered it so I may be completely wrong, but it was just a thought)

CSM vs Orkz

Sephyr — GMT

I was very surprised at how my plague marines owned a 30-boys mob, especially since they were charged. Granted, I positioned them well betwen craters and made sure not all 30 could attack, but between being denied the extra attack (blight grenades), needing 5+ to wound and FNP, the PK nob was the only one killing a marine a turn.

The second turn was even more impressive, at their S dropped to 3 without FC and the 6 remaining plagues were killing about 6 boys a turn compared to the one they lost. Sadly the game ended (we ran out of time) before the melee concluded, but they definitely did well and my Nurgle Prince was getting close to join the combat in the next turn...

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

How many plague marines ?

Re:CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

I'll bet 7.

Again, I haven't seen a 30 mob charge anything with every single boy getting a swing. So theoryhammer is entertaining and all, but it is still theoryhammer.

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

your doin it wrong, best anti horde weapons that chaos has, noise weapons and the havok launcher, combine those two and you have anti everything firepower for dealing with hordes, throw in a defiler and lash prince to a (defiler) cope with nasty stuff like orc walkers or just to throw some weight around or b(lash price) to keep that nasty horde away from you, there is also something to be said about lash sorc with familiar, 2 lash / turn can keep most hordes away quite happily, and if they get too close you can bunch them up nicely for your hidden doom sirens

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

Tyranic Marta wrote:your doin it wrong, best anti horde weapons that chaos has, noise weapons and the havok launcher, combine those two and you have anti everything firepower for dealing with hordes, throw in a defiler and lash prince to a (defiler) cope with nasty stuff like orc walkers or just to throw some weight around or b(lash price) to keep that nasty horde away from you, there is also something to be said about lash sorc with familiar, 2 lash / turn can keep most hordes away quite happily, and if they get too close you can bunch them up nicely for your hidden doom sirens

ok 1) don't parrot me chump 2) havok launchers are great, but come at a price, and chaos is a low model count army. Some folk might not want to pay for a weapon on a vehicle that is probably going to die like a rhino, especially when you can mount a combiweapon. Most people prefer not to put them on LR's because they are assault boats before gunboats, esp. due to a lack of PotMS, although they do add some whoomp onto a dakka pred, if that's your flavour. But are those havocs going to clean up 30 boyz quicker than say a havoc squad or a chosen squad with 4 flamers if you hit them with it? I find in one situation I'm chipping away at da boyz, the other I'm telling them to gtfo off my board- which I'd prefer to do. 3) defiler vs da kans, I'd like to see the mathhammer on da kans w/ rokkits vs the reaper/battle cannon fired once a turn, especially comparing the cost to effectiveness. Yeah the defiler will do some damage in CC, but the kans have a good chance of bopping the defiler, especially if it fluffs its rolls and is looking down at 6 DCCW attacks back- if it makes it past the rokkit hail. 4) You can't lash twice a turn with the same model. Psykers can use ONE power per turn, the exception is something that has a rule that allows you to use TWO per turn. like a MoT! A familiar allows you to HAVE one more psychic power than normal. English, do ye read it?

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

*sigh* refer to my statement on the biker thread about personal attacks

i cant be bothered arguing my point
have fun

Re:CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

decoste007xt didn't seem to take it too personally he probably followed the link in my sig, and went "fair enough".

So if it seems too personal for you, go double lash someone with your familiar

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

-.-

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Im afraid I'll have to field 20 demons next game, with blended red to orange swords their coolness will prevail them immortality

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I also have a problem where my buddy picked up more orkz.. and now i could be facing nearly 120 of them in a game. I'm thinking of atleast 1 raptor squad to get in deep to allow a well positioned deepstrike or prehaps try my hand at luck and see where the demons land. No luck on finding anymore rhinos unless i pump out some cash

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

no raptors
nononononono

not against orcs, its a pointsink that you cant afford

CSM vs Orkz

somecallmeJack — GMT

Definitely load up on plague marines & berzerkers. I'm an ork player & I know from experience that these units hurt.

I don't usually run nobz, so consequently berzerkers just chew right through most stuff in my army. As an ork player, theyre a massive target priority. After the first time you never make the mistake of letting them get into combat.

Plague marines likewise are very tough to kill, especially for squads without a power klaw. Ive had games where one unit of plague marines has taken charges from 3 units before they've gone down. Theyre also very resilient against massed loota fire.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Well if im looking for numbers here isn't taking CSM/Demons a safer bet? he doesnt run a squad without a powerklaw so i will probably lose 2-3 plague marines per combat Just to the claw, meaning probably after a charge I'll have a guy or two left standing. CSM will mean I dont have the 5T or FNP to help negate regular boy hits, but vs a claw its more wounds to expend. I'm also thinking more gunfire to widdle him down before he reaches me, also regardless of a charge they will hit first. I can field a few more.. I was thinking of fielding a 20 man squad, but i dont like a huge squad like that.. except w/ the Mark of Khorne its costing me just over 1pt a guy to add 1A.

Someone else suggested it, and it sounds pretty solid to me, 3A, or 4A on a charge.. always hit first. 24inch range, and ability to rapidfire. With boltguns i wont need to worry about being in combat ASAP, and running.. This is where i come to zerkers, only owning 1 rhino and knowing full well he runs his boyz with rokkits that 1 rhino is a major target and will likely explode on turn 1 or 2 before it gets close enough to do its job. Leaving Zerkers taking a 4S hit if it explodes, and likely not in range or being pinned if i fail leadership. Dont get me wrong if i had more rhinos I'd love zerkers, but I'm afraid that they wont be as useful as boltguns hitting for probably 2 turns while they run across the field, or blow up, or get pinned.

This doesn't mean i wont use them, I'm just brainstorming with what I got and how it may play out.

I'm also thinking of only taking 1 havoc squad if i do, once orkz come into combat their fairly useless so charging guys in that i spend 20pts per gun on makes me think maybe i should of spent it somewhere else.

Daemon Prince with Wings and warptime to take out killahkans sounds ideal... my new problem is he bought a KFF Big Mek. I fought this damn thing before and I know I need to kill it as fast as i can if i want any gunfire to do well, or blow any vehicles up at a range (altho thats why the DP has wings/warptime)

CSM vs Orkz

Anvildude — GMT

What weapon has the largest, strongest Blast template, and what weapon has the highest rate of fire?

And can Obliterators or Defilers take them?

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Heavy bolters is 3 S5 Shots.. at 15pt a marine and 15pts a gun... Noise marines come in 2nd place with 3 heavy boltgun shots or 2 assault shots.....

Pie plate via a defiler or a vindicator. As I only own 7 noise marines, and 1 defiler.. but i do own 10 havocs now.

Obliterators can take plasma cannons but 75 pt units isnt going to be a good idea in this game of horde

CSM vs Orkz

Ailaros — GMT

Tyranic Marta wrote:no raptors
nononononono

not against orcs, its a pointsink that you cant afford

Go back and do the math on raptors, especially with MoK. You will be surprised.

Raptors get a lot of attacks, and, most importantly, are fast enough to guarantee that you steal the charge away from a mob of boyz. They're actually pretty good in this role.

Anvildude wrote:What weapon has the largest, strongest Blast template

decoste007xt wrote:Heavy bolters is 3 S5 Shots.. at 15pt a marine and 15pts a gun... Noise marines come in 2nd place with 3 heavy boltgun shots or 2 assault shots.....

Three words, Kustom Force Field.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

I know, i hate KFF... it gives vehicles 4+ and troops 5+ =(

10 CSM , 2 flamers, MoK. 190pts

10 Raptors, 2 flamers, MoK 240 pts, 50 points sounds worth it for 12inch mobility, your right I will likely get the charge.. I will also likely get the flamers in. I thought about running 2 squads of 5 to get 4 flamer templates in at them yeah they'd likely die, but it also means all his boys pick to attack 1 of the 2 squads tying them up longer while my other guys run in. In addition i wondered if template weapons will be effected by a KFF?

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

of couse they will, template only ignores cover wheras KFF gives invulny

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

Tyranic Marta wrote:of couse they will, template only ignores cover wheras KFF gives invulny

cover save. It is a cover save.

CSM vs Orkz

Ajroo — GMT

Jihallah wrote:
Tyranic Marta wrote:of couse they will, template only ignores cover wheras KFF gives invulny

cover save. It is a cover save.

You two again! Lol.

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

its a cover save? really? AWSOME that makes things so much easier for me

Re:CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

CSM tip vs orks number 1)

Read their codex. Read their codex no matter what army they are playing

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

shhhh its one of the only ones i dont have yet

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i can quote almost any codex except fo rthe current GK eldar and orks

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

Tyranic Marta wrote:shhhh its one of the only ones i don't have yet

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i can quote almost any codex except fo rthe current GK eldar and orks

Then quote me the bit that lets you double lash with a familiar

Also, that has got to be one of the BEST posts on the internet. just for its glory:

Tyranic Marta wrote:i can quote almost any codex except fo rthe current GK eldar and orks

Would you like a medal or something?

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

nope, im just saying
it actually pisses me off that i havt got those last codicies

like seriously it really annoys me

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

Tyranic Marta wrote:nope, im just saying
it actually pisses me off that i havt got those last codicies

like seriously it really annoys me

Oh god that has me in stitches. Either that is just plain hilarious or I just got so trolled I can only laugh at myself

CSM vs Orkz

Tyranic Marta — GMT

o.O my head just popped with confusion

Re:CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

CSM vs Orkz

Ajroo — GMT

Tyranic Marta wrote:o.O my head just popped with confusion

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

I enjoy you guys help, but if its some sort of personal rivalry can it be taken elsewhere?

Also I thought KFF was different than a cover save, but indeed i didnt look it up. I just trusted the player, maybe he interpretted it wrong. Would this go for any template weapon like large blasts, blast, flamer, wind of chaos , etc? I hit him with a bunch of flamethrowers this weekend ( I was hitting nearly 22 orkz with 1 flamethrower, and i hit with 7 that turn). Not only did i roll terribly but I screwed over by the KFF....

I'll post how it went when im less drunk.

CSM vs Orkz

akaean — GMT

templates ignore cover saves.

Templates are not blasts (large or small)

Only templates are what you use when you blast away with a flamer, or heavy flamer.

All template attacks ignore cover, and as a result they ignore everything that a KFF can provide.

Re:CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

This sounds like a bad idea now, but at the time it sounded great. Keeping in mind most of what this list has is ALL i have. So I can't do any dual defilers, or vindicators, or bunches of rhinos.

My List:

Daemon Prince, MoT, Waprtime, Wings

20 Khorne Berzerkers

20 CSM w/ MoK, 2 flamers

x3 7 PM, x2 flamers

Defiler

x10 Raptors, MoK, x2 flamers

Friend had roughly... 2 KFF Big Meks, x3 30 shootah boyz w/ nob/bosspole/pk, x2 trukks w/ x5 nobs, powerklaws/bigchoppahs/painboy,etc (he had them setup in a way they all were different to allocate wounds) 15 Lootahs, x4 deff koptas (2 squads), x20 gretchin.

I wanted to play aggressively, i realize ideally the zerkers should of been in rhinos, as well as my SM split up into 10's with MoK.. but we went form playing a 1000pts to 2000pts so it was all good fun.

He won roll off, chose for me to go first. We rolled Annhiliation, Spear Head. I deployed.. he deployed.. I spent all of turn one moving and running up. Defy shot into the 4 koptas that scouted a turbo boost, killing one i was hoping to get rid of them fast, usually i use the ordinance for the boyz but they were hidden behind too much. When it came time for the koptas defy got hit with a rokkit and got wrecked.Moved up guys again, i had killed roughly 10 orkz with my CSM w/ boltguns, unloaded the PM into the gretchins that were bottlenecking him (only unit not under a KFF). DP and his raptors killed the remaining deffkoptas.

Shootahs all fired at ONE PM squad, and i sustained 0 wounds, nearly 120 shots into 7 PM and nothing happened, i loved it! Then he rolled a 1 on the lootas, 15 shots into my CSM and only 1 died. He moved up the trukks and i wasnt so worried.. I had been running and moving my khorne berzerkers up, i was so amped to get them into combat.

Next turn i moved my guys up further, unloaded more shots into boyz, rolled badly.. and KFF saved most of them.. moved plague marines up... next turn id be ready to fry me up some orkz! DP and his Raptors kept movin along, i got to shoot some orkz w/ the pistols, did some surprisingly damage, even hit with flamer templates barely but not within proper range!

The half of his turn was the most devestating thing I had ever seen, an ork boy squad got into combat with my khorne berzerkers, both trukks unloaded.. and i had 10 nobz, and 20 boyz w/ a pk nob all hitting the 20 khorne berzerkers. No problem right? 60 attacks? lets split 30 to 1 nob squad, and 30 to the other.. im not worried about boyz but man nobz hit hard!........ I got 1 wound on the nobz.. ONE WOUND. Guess what happened to me ? after powerklaws and bigchoopas my entire 20 man squad of khorne berzerkers was dead. I had lost 420 pts in a single turn, 20 guys. I couldnt beleive it, i understand that PK's rock normal guys, but only causing 1 wound? that felt devestating...

Next turn, i was able to get off countless flamer templates, killing gretchins...ork boyz... flaming with raptors, then charging w/ them and the DP. PM soaked up all the loota shots ( i kid you not these lootahs rolled a 1 for 4 turns, then rolled a 6.. they shot at 1 PM squad for 4 turns and i never lost any guys.

I did great in CC! Raptors and prince shredded a full boyz squad all but his Big Mek.. then on his turn he charged the nobz in.. and it was so painful. I lost all the raptors, and the demon prince died.. After that the next turn i flamed the gak out of him but terrible rolls.. nobz charged PM and destroyed them.. turn 5 it was over.I felt losing 20 khorne berzerkers like that.. was aweful. The defiler didnt do anything really, the khorne berzerkers got owned! Shootahs didnt hurt really, Lootahs were a joke.. but those Nobz were the bane of my existance, the truks were always in behind terrain i had no clear shots.. i really wished i put more powerfists in my army or PW.. but i figure who needs costly weapons to kill boyz? (he never brings nobz) i was so very very wrong..

CSM vs Orkz

Anvildude — GMT

There's a reason almost every single Ork list takes a Nob squad. Just about the only way to kill them is with double toughness weapons (so Powerfists, DCCW or really, really strong MCs) or a lot of Power Weapon or AP1/2 shots, because they will have a Painboy, with Cybork and Feel No Pain, and they may very well have 'eavy Armour, and they'll probably be toting enough Big Choppas and Powerklaws to munch through anything aside from dedicated Nob killers.

And never, NEVER let Orks get the charge if you want to survive.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

I was trying to nullify his charge, but it was devestating. I think the safest approach would of been to gear up with some plasma guns to nullifying armor, and FNP.

CSM vs Orkz

schadenfreude — GMT

The only CSM unit orks need to be really worried about is the lash prince. The 2 best tricks with lash is to cluster boys for a template/pie, or move them closer to CSM units to steal the charge away from the boys. Vanilla CSM and PM are very nasty when they get the charge on boys.

The ork solution is simple and easy: Lootas. They wound a deamon prince on a 2+, so against lootas a lash deamon prince is no more difficult to kill than 4 tactical marines. Make the lash prince your top priority for long ranged shooting and games against chaos will go a lot more smooth.

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

decoste007xt wrote:I was trying to nullify his charge, but it was devestating. I think the safest approach would of been to gear up with some plasma guns to nullifying armor, and FNP.

Get some 'ing rhino's! You're dieing in CC from either a) lots o' boys or B) da klaws. If da boyz and da klaw charge da rhino, da rhino goes boom. Your going to be wounded on a 4+ (5+ for nurgle) and you will save 2/3rds of your wounds. Every ork hit by the explosion is wounded on a 5+ (it adds up with large numberrrrrs) and then they will save 1/6th of their armor saves. So in da ork turn, their charge made you lose a rhino and them lose some boyz. Then you flame them, and charge them! Since the nob is going to be the last one they remove, keep at least ONE marine near the nob- that way, you can't be denied the charge, because they removed all the models closest to you! So they lose a bucketload of boyz to the flamer, and any thats left, you charge them! Orks don't like wounding space marines on a 5+ after getting Barbecued!

The only thing he has to take on your rhino's at range are deffkoptaz and lootaz, now it may be obvious, but you should keep that very much in mind. If the lootaz cant see the rhino, he can't pop it! If the deffkoptaz are dead or engaged in combat, he can't pop it! "but da boyz and their powerklaws will charge my rhino D:!", is not what you want to hear in your head, and if it is, read above please.

The same logic applies to his TRUKKS. The point of transports, not trukks, not wave serpents, not rhino's, the point of transports is to get a unit where you NEED them. He (your opponent) would have been worried about 20 'zerkers. Unless you handle 'em right, 20 'zerkers can do some nasty . So he didn't charge you with 1 mob- he charged you with 1 mob AND two trukks worth of nobs! Also out of curiosity, did your zerkers hit on a 3+ in Close combat? they should vs boyz, and they should vs nobs UNLESS the nobs have a waaauuuggh banner (the one that gives +1WS). And his nobs should have hit you on a 4+, if he had a waaauugghh banner and thought your had WS4 like a regular marine, he would be hitting you on 3+, but your zerkers have WS5. So, what did he do? He threw a big mob and his 2 dedicated CC units into your zerkers. via the trukks. IF those trukks were smoldering wrecks on HIS side of the field, where they started, would he have been able to charge you with those 3 units at once? 1 squad of havocs might have prevented that situation from happening.

Here is an article about tactics that is very useful and will improve your understanding of the game as a general.

Unlike the other elements, Water fights reactively, responding to the plan of the enemy. Whereas the other elements try to dominate a particular phase, and "inflict" their plan upon the enemy, Water has no plan other than to defeat the enemy's plan. Unlike the other elements, Water fights reactively, responding to the plan of the enemy. Whereas the other elements try to dominate a particular phase, and "inflict" their plan upon the enemy, Water has no plan other than to defeat the enemy's plan. Good Water armies use well rounded, generalist troops.

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schadenfreude wrote:The only CSM unit orks need to be really worried about is the lash prince. The 2 best tricks with lash is to cluster boys for a template/pie, or move them closer to CSM units to steal the charge away from the boys. Vanilla CSM and PM are very nasty when they get the charge on boys.

The ork solution is simple and easy: Lootas. They wound a deamon prince on a 2+, so against lootas a lash deamon prince is no more difficult to kill than 4 tactical marines. Make the lash prince your top priority for long ranged shooting and games against chaos will go a lot more smooth.

That is an excellent point for orks. For lootaz, ANY daemon prince=4 marine wounds. Your always wounding on a 2+, and your always saving on a 3+ for the DP. My friend had some teething problems with DP's, then one game he had nothing to shoot at with his lootaz BUT a DP. When he asked what he wounded/what i saved on, his face lit up- your could see the cogs turns. "Yes. To lootaz, he is a space marine with 4 wounds. No matter what the mark, he is a really big marine with issues taking cover to lootaz "

Now the always crows when my DP does the bullet dance. Then cries when the rhino's he wasn't shooting at start punching on with him

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

He took a WAAAGH banner so we were hitting each other on 4's, yeah i realize i need rhinos badly. I'm ordering some from TripleHelix probably in a few days ($20 a rhino <3).

I know i got devestated, as the point costly, and the #'s were against the Zerkers but i wish I atleast killed 1!!!.. 1 wound.. blarg is just demoralizing.

Hopefully I can muster up atleast 2 rhinos.. ideally 3.. as i said before i loved that post about castling, and creating rhino-made walls

Im fearing using the DP, but everyone i talk to uses one.. would there be a merit to using any other CSM heroes? I was thinking Typhus but he's costly.. or even just a Terminator Lord.. or a Lord on a Khorne Juggernaut

CSM vs Orkz

Snickerdoodle — GMT

If you are tailoring a list specifically for Orks, try Lash Prince with a squad of chosen with 5 flamers, goodbye Mob!

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

To be honest Boyz were not the problem, it was Nobz. I think some plasma guns in there will certainly help, and prepare to crack open a transport. I want avoid going into melee with upwards of 25 PK attacks thats for sure.

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Still havin fun tho, win or lose

CSM vs Orkz

Jihallah — GMT

decoste007xt wrote:To be honest Boyz were not the problem, it was Nobz. I think some plasma guns in there will certainly help, and prepare to crack open a transport. I want avoid going into melee with upwards of 25 PK attacks thats for sure.

Question- would you want a transport dead in their deployment zone, or in yours? The closer to HIS board edge the transport is when it dies, the better you are doing. And 2 str7 shots at 24" or 4 at 12" might not be the best option. 8 str7 shots at 48" from havocs with Autocannons will ping up transports real good- kans too.

decoste007xt wrote:Still havin fun tho, win or lose

You're doin' somethin' very right then

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Snickerdoodle wrote:If you are tailoring a list specifically for Orks, try Lash Prince with a squad of chosen with 5 flamers, goodbye Mob!

But none of my opponents mobs are on foot, they are all in wagons or trukks.

*queue someone going "duhh get something to destroy them then!"*

The point is you can't just take X and Y and a little of Z and beat any ork army, or any flavor of army. How about instead of going "take this and this and this and you'll beat those cursed necrons/space wolves/eldar/etc!", we use the tactics forum to discuss tactics? Or, If there is a magical trio of units in a codex somewhere that when used together you CAN beat any army, how about you instead tell us how to use the trio in such a manner?

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

I'm loving the autocannon idea, they will pound through trukks, kans, and they might even pick off some Nobz.

I don't like the idea of using lash right now because given theres nearly 4 squads of boyz on the field, nobz in trukks, and possibly Kans next time. It means I would probably waste a sorcerer or a DP in CC to just sit back and lash. I can only lash 2 squads, I want to try double nurgles rot instead. Clearing out the boyz as i said has never been a big concern but this should clean them out all the faster.

I got my 2 box's of resin PM, and a landraider, i likely won't use the landraider though as its a giant target. All came in good condition so I'll likely order the rhinos next... I know this isnt a modeling thread but painting on resin feels like ass, maybe its the rough surface of the PM but my CSM -> PM conversion feel a lot better.. im kind of disappointed.

CSM vs Orkz

Ajroo — GMT

decoste007xt wrote: painting on resin feels like ass, maybe its the rough surface of the PM but my CSM -> PM conversion feel a lot better.. im kind of disappointed.

even after an undercoat?

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Yeah i use the citadel black primer spraypaint,i did a 2nd PM though and it was slightly different. I also switched up from using camo green ( i saw a tutorial and his PM looked badass). To going back and using Gretchin green..and then using camo on it later. But the surface feels quite rough, and I think this is just a resin feature but the model feels quite soft. I had lots of flashing, and bubbles in most of my feet, some wern't bad.. others came up through the sides of the feet.

Blending the shoulder pads is looking nice though.. I'll be starting it a thread for that + greenstuff to get some feedback. Never used greenstuff before but I've done digital sculpture.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Rapidfire came up last game and apparently I've been doing it all wrong. If a model that had rapidfire moves at ALL you can only ever shoot 12inches w/ rapidfire.

So this means if I EVER move my effective range is 12? This makes me want to drop plasma guns as im an aggressive assaulting and just take pistols..although 15 pts for 1 shot at S7 wounds wasteful.. probably take another body.

CSM vs Orkz

Anvildude — GMT

Per turn. Not the whole game.

It goes like this:

If you don't move, you can treat your Rapidfire weapons as though they were single-shot Heavy guns with lower strength but higher range.

If you move, you can still use your Rapidfire weapons, but only as Assault weapons, with 2 shots and half the range.

CSM vs Orkz

lunarman — GMT

Even Anvil Dude is wrong

You can't assault after rapid firing.

It's either:

1) Move + two shots at 12"
2) Don't move + one shot at 24" OR two shots at 12"
3) Move + Shoot Pistols (1 shot at 12") + Assault

Because you can't assault from a rhino, this is normally redundant. You drive up in the rhino, jump out. Rapid fire the enemy hope most of them die.

CSM vs Orkz

decoste007xt — GMT

Another thought in the tactics.. i played a game w/ my ork friend vs a tau and a SM player. My demon prince chewed through 10 terminators and a librarian.. then proceeded to fly across the board and rip a tau squad to shreds. All I took was wings and warptime, and i can say not only was the terminator squad rolling 1's on powerfists but i was rollecting my 5+ invunerable like crazy.. i rolled 5's and 6's for nearly 9 rolls in a row... The termies got the DP to 2 wounds in a shooting phase but then he assaulted me.. warptime ended up killing 4 terminators immediately.. then the next turn i cleaned up the mess along.

But my buddies force got annhiliated.. except for the Nob squad. It took a pounding from quite literally everything..every game we play these guys hammer the gak out of the orkz and seem to forget that Chaos is a deadly CC force (we won 14 KP to 7 KP). I lost a CSM squad, sorcerer, and last turn the DP.. that was it.

But those nobz took more firepower than i could of ever imagines..eavy armor, cyborg bodies, feel no pain and wound allocation.. he had a warboss... I've had trouble killing Nobz in games previously... is the idea to try and annhiliate them before they even get into melee? or what would be a good melee counter? lightning claw termicides?