<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics! 40k has almost started to feel like a chore at this point and in talking to some of the other codex marine players at my club they also seem to have quit playing their marines as they got tired of losing.

I want to win some games and start having fun again. What can I do to turn this losing streak around?

The most recent list I played was in a 2000 pts tourney:

HQ

Terminator Librarian with Storm Shield and avenger and null zone.

Librarian in power armor with avenger and null zone.

Troops

10 Tacticals with missile launcher, melta and sgt with chainsword, in a rhino.

10 Tacticals with missile launcher, flamer and sgt with bolter, in a rhino with dozer blade and HK missile.

5 scouts with sniper rifles, missile launcher and camo cloaks.

Elites

5 TH/SS terminators in a LR redeemer with multi melta and extra armor, lead by the terminator librarian.

5 Sternguard with 4 combi flamers and heavy flamer, in a razorback with TL lascannon and storm bolter, lead by the power armor librarian.

Venerable dreadnought with plasma cannon and TL autocannon.

Heavy Support

Thunderfire cannon

Vindicator with siege shield and storm bolter

Predator with autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons and HK missile.




I have a lot more marine stuff, some painted and unpainted:

10 Tacticals with missile launcher, plasma gun and powerfist sgt.

Razorback with TL lascannon or TL assault cannon, dozer blade, all options magnetized and can also go as a rhino. Unpainted as yet but I want to lavish detail on it as it's a Forge World Deimos rhino.

Dreadnought (magnetized) with 2x TL autocannons or multi melta and CCW.

10 assault marines with power weapon sgt.

10 2nd edition marines that I plan on refurbishing to assault marines, possibly with a powerfist.

8 Tactical terminators, old RT era ones. I plan on repainting and giving them a LR crusader. They have a cyclone launcher, heavy flamer, assault cannon, 2 chain fists and a Captain.

2 unassembled land speeders, not sure how I'll build them but I'd like to magnetize the weapons.

Unassembled command squad, not sure on how I'll build them either. Staggering variety of options there.

Pedro Kantor.

Possible custom master of the forge on a bike, likely to be built with a conversion beamer. This is a back-burner WIP.

4 servitors with heavy bolter and plasma cannon. Also a back burner WIP.

Various special weapon marines to insert into my tactical or sternguard squads including 2 meltas, a plasma gun and 2 powerfists.




Some observations I've made so far:

I've built a lot of my units they way I have because I thought they looked cool and would be fun to paint. But it turns out that aesthetics don't help you win games.

Not having gate of infinity on my librarians has cost me some opportunities, especially when the transports get wrecked.

The avenger power hasn't been useful at all.

Null zone has been decent. Definitely dropping avenger for gate on both librarians.

Having a powerfist in my tacticals could have given me a tool to take on dreadnoughts/vehicles/MCs, but is expensive and not sure if its worth it.

The sniper scouts have been useless so far as anything other than objective campers. I don't like them, but keep wanting them to be useful. Don't know how to effectively use them.

I'm not at all sure how to effectively use the assault terminators. They're definitely my army's stars and have killed stuff and are hard to kill, but I've had mixed results with them and they've often ended up tied up in close combat with the wrong units, like dreadnoughts and vehicles and can't really deal with that effectively. Probably due to bad dice rolling.

Same goes for the LRR, it's killed a lot of stuff and is very fun and cool looking, but often gets taken out early. Not sure how to effectively use it. I know it's a terminator delivery system, but something usually goes wrong.

Sternguard kick ass, the combi flamers have been great, as well as the heavy flamer. I could use some combi meltas and more sternguard in general.

Their razorback is mismatched with them, having my army's sole lascannon, which often leads me to use them too conservatively. I also don't fully understand when/where to use their special ammo.

And with every game it becomes apparent I need more lascannons.

The venerable dread has performed decently with the plasma cannon and autocannon. I also have an assault cannon and CCW for it.

The vindi has been a total disappointment. It's almost always taken out by turn 2, often it doesn't even get to move before it's destroyed. I've heard to only take them in 2s or 3s, but I'm currently not interested in painting more vindicators. It's gonna be shelved for a while I think. It sure does look cool, though!

The thunderfire cannon has been hit or miss. It either kills a lot of stuff, or dies without doing anything. I usually take it because it's cheap and sounds great on paper. I find it difficult to deploy it and take advantage of the bolster defenses rule, as there isn't always a convenient ruin.

The pred has done fairly decently as an anti-infantry unit, and is often one of my last units left alive. It spits out a lot of dakka if it doesn't move. I like it.

HK missiles are utter and complete garbage in general, and unfortunately I glued some of them on. Others I was wise enough to magnetize and won't be using them anymore. They sound so great and look really cool on my tanks, but they're overpriced and always fail to do anything.

My assault marines have performed well in almost every game, and have worked well for me, contrary to the common wisdom I've read here on the forums with regard to codex marines and assault. I like them and want to use them more.



Tactics:

Here's where I fail big time. Usually on deployment. And I often screw myself over on scenery, ending up on the side with insufficient/poor scenery, leaving myself out in the open. Or with too much scenery that prevents my tanks from advancing fast enough.

How should I be deploying from the get go? Should I do reserves? Should I bunch everything up together and advance as one and totally focus all my firepower on priority targets, or spread out and engage multiple targets at once?

I've learned vs. tyranids I need to focus all my firepower immediately on the swarmlords or other nasty MCs, but what do you do about the other stuff that's rapidly converging on your army?

In regards to objectives, should I just rush my tacticals over to them immediately and try to defend them, or maybe keep on the move and try to outflank the enemy and then take the objectives later in the game, or at least contest them?

I have to admit I suck at strategy and tactics and am generally clueless on how to play my army effectively. I've also not faced every army available yet, nor do I fully understand what every army is capable of and what all their units do. And that has cost me games.

So I'm seeking any and all advice for codex marines and how I could actually start winning some games. What I'm doing now clearly isn't working and I want to start actually having fun with this.

Thanks for any and all advice!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3994780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3994780.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Main problem is focus. Your army is not optimized. It doesn't have an idea about what it wants to do. You've got lots of good tools, but just a little bit of everything. Better to come up with a gameplan for how you want to win and then focus on that.

1- Why 2 librarians? Judging by the rest of the army, the TDA libby should be Vulkan. If you don't like named characters, then I would roll with just one HQ. As it is now you're spending an extra 140 points on 3 power weapon attacks. If you Vulkan... make your speeders MM/HF speeders. They are only 70 points each and are amazing with twinlinked goodness.

2- Why scouts? That's 100 points not doing anything for you. I get it that you have a 2+ cover save, but 100 points is a lot and how does this fit with the armies plan to win? If you roll up an objective game, you've got combat squads with missiles to camp. I suggest losing these guys to focus on what the army wants to do... and if you took Vulkan that means getting some MM attack bikes or MM speeders. If you dropped the libby, you've got 240 points so plenty of options there including another tactical squad.

3- Mish mash of heavy support. All three are configured for shooting different targets at different ideal range. How can they support each other? You need target saturation to keep them up and running longer. Best to focus on one strategy and commit. I'd consider dropping the T-fire, since you said you had issues using it, and get another vindicator.... you can make up the points difference by dropping the siege shield and storm bolter off the other vindicator and the HKM off the predator.

4- Dread is way way too expensive. What is his ideal target? Why is he venerable? If you want a ven-dred at least drop the autocanon for a DCCW, but better yet just take the regular 115 point MM/HF dread. This guy is really good with Vulkan and much cheaper than what you are rolling now.

5- Sternguard all with upgraded short range weapons in a transport that pays points to operate at long range. Not a good match here. Better to take a rhino. You definately want a couple of combi-meltas in here as well. Sternguard are already good against infantry, but with combi-meltas they are good against others as well. I'd look to boost them to 9 strong if you take a rhino since it gives a good place for the libby or vulkan to ride. Vulkan with twin linked heavy flamer in a squad of sternguard with 4x twinlinked flamers could be good fun!

6- wasted points: You've got a lot of stuff that isn't that good. dozer blades, siege shields, HKMs, venerable, storm bolters, razorback turrets, etc... You're really playing about 1800 points in a 2000 point tournament. Take a look at all the upgrades and figure out what is really needed, then drop everything else.

7- Deployment and Tactics. The trick here is to know what your armies focus is. Judging by your army now, you've got lots of short range goodness. You want to try and advance on the enemy, but keep your units within range to respond to threats. A LRR with a pair of vindicators gives a pretty good armor value to the front, and then rhinos with troops, attack bikes, and speeders tucked in to repond to threats or melt transport seems like a good strategy.

-Myst]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995078.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
First of all, 25 Marines at 2000 points? Yeesh, that isn't too hard to get rid of. When Grey Knights outnumber you there is something wrong there. Seriously one of the scariest lists I've gone against had 50 marines, 5 Rhinos, 3 Dreads, 3 Predators (Dakka variant), three MM Attack Bikes, and 5 heavy weapons in the combat-squads........at 2000 points. I mean there are definitely other builds you can do that are just as deadly, but I'd go with 3-5 full tac squads at 2000 points.

Cave_Dweller wrote:
HQ
Terminator Librarian with Storm Shield and avenger and null zone.
Librarian in power armor with avenger and null zone.


Why do you have two of these? Null Zone is always nice and Avenger can be useful while tagging along with an assault unit, but ideally you want to keep the Librarians alive as long as possible. I'd probably go with Gate and Null Zone.

Ditch the termi armor.

Troops
10 Tacticals with missile launcher, melta and sgt with chainsword, in a rhino.
10 Tacticals with missile launcher, flamer and sgt with bolter, in a rhino with dozer blade and HK missile.

Ditch the Dozer and HKs. Swap the flamer for another melta-gun. Get a third squad.

Combi-Meltas on the sarges aren't a bad idea. Missile or MM for the heavies (Plasma has uses in some cases, but need more tac squads to work).

5 scouts with sniper rifles, missile launcher and camo cloaks.

Why?

5 TH/SS terminators in a LR redeemer with multi melta and extra armor, lead by the terminator librarian.

Half-Assed death start in an over-priced tin can. Here's a hint. Landraiders are a very uncompetitive choice.

I really don't see the TH/SS termies adding anything to your list. I'd ditch them and the Landraider completely.

5 Sternguard with 4 combi flamers and heavy flamer, in a razorback with TL lascannon and storm bolter, lead by the power armor librarian.

I'd opt for Combi-Meltas instead. If you're having trouble killing infantry, you're doing something wrong elsewhere in the list. Drop the Heavy Flamer.

Razorback honestly isn't needed. A Rhino works fine. A single Sternguard squad is also easy to single out. Take 2-3 of them or none at all.

Venerable dreadnought with plasma cannon and TL autocannon.

Weapons with mixed rolls? Not a good choice. What does this dread add to your army? I'm really not seeing it. Venerable isn't all that needed either.

Heavy Support

Thunderfire cannon


No....just......no.

Vindicator with siege shield and storm bolter

Single Vindicators (and Vindicators in general) are not good. If you absolutely must have them, go big (take 3) or go home.

Predator with autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons and HK missile.

Drop the HK. Y'know 3 of these would probably be your best bet as heavy support.

Or 3 Devastator squads with 4 missile launchers each. Las-Plas Razors would complement the devastators pretty well too.


Overall the list is pretty scattered and unfocused with a lot of bloat (uneeded) items. I think you could trim the fat down a bunch and optimize it a lot better. Things in your list that just aren't worth taking (for codex Space Marines) in a tournament setting:

Thunderfire Cannon
Landraider
Vindicator (unless you really want them and take 3)
TH/SS Termies (Vulkan can kinda-sorta make them work....still not a great choice)
Venerable Dreads
Scouts







Some observations I've made so far:

I've built a lot of my units they way I have because I thought they looked cool and would be fun to paint. But it turns out that aesthetics don't help you win games.

Sadly this is true to a some extent. One of my armies is Tyranids and I love how they look....sad how hard they are to do decent with.

Not having gate of infinity on my librarians has cost me some opportunities, especially when the transports get wrecked.


Having a powerfist in my tacticals could have given me a tool to take on dreadnoughts/vehicles/MCs, but is expensive and not sure if its worth it.


Meh, chances are if your 5-man combat squads actually get into CC (especially with a dread) gak has already hit the fan. I wouldn't bother with power-fists.

The sniper scouts have been useless so far as anything other than objective campers. I don't like them, but keep wanting them to be useful. Don't know how to effectively use them.

They aren't.

I'm not at all sure how to effectively use the assault terminators. They're definitely my army's stars and have killed stuff and are hard to kill, but I've had mixed results with them and they've often ended up tied up in close combat with the wrong units, like dreadnoughts and vehicles and can't really deal with that effectively. Probably due to bad dice rolling.

If you're in combat with those types of units, then you've positioned yourself poorly or let yourself get baited into a bad fight. TH/SS Termies in Codex Marine lists are really, really, hard to make them work.

Same goes for the LRR, it's killed a lot of stuff and is very fun and cool looking, but often gets taken out early. Not sure how to effectively use it. I know it's a terminator delivery system, but something usually goes wrong.


Landraiders suck. For every army. When I come up against Landraiders my usual thought is "Oh, an easy game...sweet."

And with every game it becomes apparent I need more lascannons.


Nope. Space Marines don't really need lascannons at all. The only time you usually see lascannons is with Las-Plas razors taken for Devastator Squads. Melta Guns, Multi-Meltas, TL-Autocannons, and Missile Launchers are top 4 anti-vehicle weapons.

The vindi has been a total disappointment. It's almost always taken out by turn 2, often it doesn't even get to move before it's destroyed. I've heard to only take them in 2s or 3s, but I'm currently not interested in painting more vindicators. It's gonna be shelved for a while I think. It sure does look cool, though!


Ah, you have learned this, then.


In general it sounds like all of your notes echo my advice 100%. You know what works and what doesn't without our help. You just need to change your list accordingly.


On tactics, it's really hard to give advice without very specific scenarios. Everything will depend on Terrain, Mission Type, Deployment Type, the army you're facing, and a lot of other factors. Just need to learn from the mistakes.

Seems like you're doing that just fine......you're just not changing your list or how you play at all. IE you're half way there and need to do the rest.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995241.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Their duty as objective campers you know. You can also keep them in reserve and flank them, having a good chance of bringing them in on the side that you want them and could be useful for a late game objective contest or capture. Also, they can just plain be a distraction against low LD units. Get a wound on, say, an IG guardsman unit and pin them down in the open and your opponent is face with you tar pitting their infantry, or have to dedicate resources to take them out.

It's hard to see when sniper scouts would be useful (probably their biggest drawback in my book), but they're worth testing out in non-tourney games and seeing if you can find a use for them in their tactics. I have (I have a soft spot for cheap units that score objectives), but I know people who would only use them as cannon fodder.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995325.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/2012/02/alchemy-of-salamander.html

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3995521.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics! TH/SS termies. They are actually pretty effective. Problem is delivery. While in general a LR is going to be pretty bad, if run well and in the proper list it CAN be an effective unit.

Where it works: A midrange army that seeks to control the middle. Its roll is to counter any nasty CC units that wish to shift you. They are death on nobs/nob bikers, multi wound infantry, and MCs. The type of LR they should be is a LRC, because it is the most flexible and mobile of the choices.

If you go with a vulcan list, 10 of these guys combat squaded into their own and HS LRC is how I would go, but that is a bit of a rock army and isn't a take all comers list. Won't work below 2k either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3996346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3996346.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
The terminator librarian is fine, but give him might of the ancients instead of avenger. Fit's his job better.

The other librarian is sorta, not helping from what I can tell. Toss in a chaplin in termie armor instead, pedro can counts as while you work the list out. Put in land raider, kill stuff dead.

For troops, there are a few ways to run them:
10 man squads with flamer, missile launcher and power weapon, with razorback that has TL lascannon (you combat squad at the start, have a static missile launcher unit and the rest goes in the razorback)
10 man squads with meltagun, combi melta and powerfist on sarge in rhino or drop pod
5 man scout squads with snipers just to be your troops and hold objectives
10 man scout squads with either shotguns or CCW, sarge with powerfist. Outflank or infiltrate.

Your terminator squad and it's land raider is fine.

Sternguard shouldn't ever have a heavy flamer, or combi flamers for that matter. They have ammo to deal with anything but tanks. Go combi melta. Use hellfire rounds against tyranid monsterous creatures.

The venerable dread should roll with a plasma cannon and DCCW, you don't need a TL autocannon at BS 5

The predator isn't helping, you don't need more anti infantry

The vindicator needs vindicator buddies to work well. As mentioned, shelf him for now.

But! The thunderfire cannons. Used properly they destroy everything. I regularly run 3 of them in my marine army and put fear in everything, even grey knights.

I won't make a list for you, I can tell you know what you need to do. Good luck.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3996548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3996548.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
As to why 2 librarians...well mainly because I had them and have been systematically repainting and refurbishing every old model I have, and the librarians were the least crappy HQ choice I have at the moment. My only other options were crappily equipped captains. I would like to use Pedro but want to take my time with his paint job and I don't like to field unpainted models if I can help it.

I also kind of have aa desire to own at least one of every space marine unit, whether or not that will actually appen is another story!

I've read about the Vulcan list and, sadly, it seems to be one of the top choices for codex marines, if not the only viable one in competitions, correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to at least have some originality in my army composition and not be like everyone else. But on the other hand, it also seems like a very powerful and effective way to multiply a codex marine army and has many obvious benefits.

I'll have to seriously consider it.

The venerable dread is actually a counts-as. The model itself is the forge world contemptor pattern, and it looks so awesome i didn't want to field it as a basic dread. I also love the idea of plasma cannons...and again this was an area where aesthetics overrided optimization.

Now if I have 10 marines I could rebuild, what would be the best route for me? I was planning to convert them into assault marines, but I'm finding myself quite torn, and now considering making them as more tacticals or even with heavy conversion into 10 more sternguard. The latter would synergize with Pedro for sure. I think at any rate I'll be buying the sternguard box set to boost my current sternguard squad to 10 and give them some combi meltas.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3998081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3998081.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics! TH/SS DO NOT scare any army out there..... Why?

You just stuck 25% of your entire points value into 1 unit on the table.

If I can just keep away from it its useless.

Try ditching it and fielding some of the better above mentioned units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3998258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3998258.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
I've read about the Vulcan list and, sadly, it seems to be one of the top choices for codex marines, if not the only viable one in competitions, correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to at least have some originality in my army composition and not be like everyone else. But on the other hand, it also seems like a very powerful and effective way to multiply a codex marine army and has many obvious benefit


I would like to note, that Shrike with his army-wide fleet is deadly with any type of Death Star unit. I am not sure, but I think it even works with VV's after their HI, thus possible 12"charge. While not sure on Vanguards, as I am BA player, I know friend of mine is running shrike with bunch of assault terminators supported with some crazy bike captain with command sq. It’s very unique and deadly at the same time.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3999451.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3999451.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Cave_Dweller wrote:I've read about the Vulcan list and, sadly, it seems to be one of the top choices for codex marines, if not the only viable one in competitions, correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to at least have some originality in my army composition and not be like everyone else. But on the other hand, it also seems like a very powerful and effective way to multiply a codex marine army and has many obvious benefits.
[snip]
The venerable dread is actually a counts-as. The model itself is the forge world contemptor pattern, and it looks so awesome i didn't want to field it as a basic dread. I also love the idea of plasma cannons...and again this was an area where aesthetics overrided optimization.

You can win without Vulkan, but there is a reason so many people take him.... Just remember, you asked why you keep losing and it sounds like you already know. You are not taking all of the most competative options due to your desire to follow the "rule of cool". That's ok, and I fully endorse that strategy, especially as I like to play with all painted models, but you have to be aware that it isn't all the codex's fault that you aren't playing with a strong enough army to win.

You can absolutely win without Vulkan, and can win with an original army list, but you are going to need to tighten up a bit. Think efficiency and effectiveness and then apply that across both army building and game play. If you aren't taking all of the most competative units, you are going to need to make up for that in others areas and can't afford to waste points. I know this is another site, but here is an article about a somewhat unique type of Space Marine army that can both surprise people and can win. I've been running tactical terminators as a base for a while now to great effect, despite the fact that they are not considered by many to be a top tier unit in the codex. I mention this because your available models and since you have a desire to play with something original. Talks a little bit about army building theory too, so even if you don't like that unit maybe will spur some thoughts on how to build something you like that is stronger that what you have now: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=229230

As for the dread... you are really going to want to drop the venerable and give him a DCCW. There is nothing wrong with a plasmacanon/DCCW dread, but the way you him now is very very expensive for not a lot of benefit.

-Myst ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3999560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/3999560.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Mysticaria wrote:
Cave_Dweller wrote:I've read about the Vulcan list and, sadly, it seems to be one of the top choices for codex marines, if not the only viable one in competitions, correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to at least have some originality in my army composition and not be like everyone else. But on the other hand, it also seems like a very powerful and effective way to multiply a codex marine army and has many obvious benefits.
[snip]
The venerable dread is actually a counts-as. The model itself is the forge world contemptor pattern, and it looks so awesome i didn't want to field it as a basic dread. I also love the idea of plasma cannons...and again this was an area where aesthetics overrided optimization.

You can win without Vulkan, but there is a reason so many people take him.... Just remember, you asked why you keep losing and it sounds like you already know. You are not taking all of the most competative options due to your desire to follow the "rule of cool". That's ok, and I fully endorse that strategy, especially as I like to play with all painted models, but you have to be aware that it isn't all the codex's fault that you aren't playing with a strong enough army to win.

You can absolutely win without Vulkan, and can win with an original army list, but you are going to need to tighten up a bit. Think efficiency and effectiveness and then apply that across both army building and game play. If you aren't taking all of the most competative units, you are going to need to make up for that in others areas and can't afford to waste points. I know this is another site, but here is an article about a somewhat unique type of Space Marine army that can both surprise people and can win. I've been running tactical terminators as a base for a while now to great effect, despite the fact that they are not considered by many to be a top tier unit in the codex. I mention this because your available models and since you have a desire to play with something original. Talks a little bit about army building theory too, so even if you don't like that unit maybe will spur some thoughts on how to build something you like that is stronger that what you have now: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=229230

As for the dread... you are really going to want to drop the venerable and give him a DCCW. There is nothing wrong with a plasmacanon/DCCW dread, but the way you him now is very very expensive for not a lot of benefit.

-Myst


I know you're right about my army choices, it's one of those things I hate to admit is true. I seem to have this stubborn belief that any army composition should be viable, but this is simply not the case. It's unfortunate that some units are so much less effective than others, but that's a whole other discussion!

Interesting read...I'd thought tactical terminators were considered overpriced and useless these days. I would like to make use of the models I have, so maybe I'll look into buying a couple more vintage ones off eBay to add more storm bolters and have a nice squad of 10.

I'm working on a revised list and taking all the advice in this thread to heart!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4002017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4002017.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
One thing that you might notice from a lot of these suggestions, though, is repetition. Vindicators are good.... but take three. Everyone says Thunderfire cannons are horrible... except the guy who takes three. Don't take Sternguard... unless you take three. Probably in Drop Pods to shoot the living bejesus out of anything you drop next to.

I think I read a phrase on here regarding Land Raiders at one point... One Land Raider is a Target. Two is a threat. Three is a problem. Even if they jut end up being AV14 Lascannon platforms... which isn't a HORRIBLE use for them.

But one important thing to note... a common Ork phrase that can be applied to almost any army is Boyz before Toyz. Take more units, but don't dress them up too much. This isn't WHFB, where you can bunker your 400 pt character in a 100 man unit. That 500 point LR full of Termies is automatically going to die.... There's a reason it costs so much. It's good. And therefore, a target...

Choose a route you find interesting, but then try saturating your army with it. You mentioned liking the Dakka Predators. Try taking more of them!

But then the key from there is finding balance. Dakkapreds take out infantry... So what happens when someone hits you with tanks? Maybe back it up with some Tac Squads with MM or ML. What if people stay out of range of your Pred Line? Maybe some Land Speeders with MM/HF would be good deep striking beside their clumped up army. Ask yourself what you have weaknesses to, and then fill in your list from there. Most competative lists end up the same because they follow this principle, and some options are just much easier to start with... (Paladins, Long Fangs, Venoms, etc.).

And once you've balanced yourself out... Take whatever flare you want! That's where list personalization comes in. Like how Venomspam is a set list until you get to the final points, at which point people will choose from Jetbikes, Hellions, Beasts.... whatever they like. Person flavour to add flare to their list.

TL;DR - Start somewhere you like, saturate, balance weaknesses, and then fill in with whatever you want for flare. It's the way most competative lists are built. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4002144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4002144.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics! LR and TH/SS termies for a while.

Also going to make assembling my land speeders a priority.

Here's what I'm thinking of trying out in the meantime:

1500 pts

HQ

Pedro Kantor

Troops

10 tacticals with melta, ML, chainsword sgt, in a rhino

10 tacticals with flamer, ML and bolter sgt

Elites

5 sternguard with hvy flamer, 4 combi flamers (unfortunately glued on!), in razorback with lascannon, lead by Pedro

Dreadnought with assault cannon (or plasma...theyre both great weapons and 10 pts) and DCCW

Dreadnought with Multi melta and DCCW

Fast attack:

10 assault marines with power weapon

10 assault marines with power weapon

Heavy support

Predator with autocannon





Tactics:

Use the tacticals to camp objectives along with the sternguard. Keep the tacticals in the rhinos and shoot missiles from the hatch while camping objectives. Pedro drops off sternguard on a mid-field objective and advances alone in the razorback and stays in for protection, or perhaps assaults. He is supported by the assault marines which remain within 12" to take advantage of the extra attack, granting them 4 attacks on the charge.

The dreadnoughts advance as well (not sure if they also benefit from the +1 attack due to Pedro?) and the predator stays on the move constantly and fires the autocannon, possibly offering cover for the dreads.

I'm lacking a lot of anti armor with this list, however and keeping the MM dread alive will be vital. The tactical squad with the melta may also be required to take on some anti-tank duty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4002446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4002446.page GMT Re:Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4018764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4018764.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Glue can be reglued... break the combi flamers off and spend 5 bucks on the bits to make them better (unless you fight a lot of orks or Kroot)

If you're running Pedro, maybe down size those tacticals and increase the sternguard (you can build/paint regular marines as sternguard... no need to go get those expense models, sounds like you have enough models already). I'd run at least two squads of sternguard. Other than that its a pretty solid force.

I too have done well with the assault marines, even though the "experts" say they're not worth it. Codex marines a still a very competitive force (see my record below). I still think that point for point they pack as much punch as anything (including those SW, BA, and GK lists that everyone fawns over).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020585.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics! SM. They're good in blood angels only because they're scoring, can take meltaguns, and can easily get squad-wide Feel No Pain and Furious Assault from priests.

Assault Terminators and a LR are quite good, actually, but too many points for games under 1750. They're especially good in a counter-assault role. The easiest ways to kill them are with massed meltaguns, but if you're using them for counterassault the enemy can't easily get those meltaguns on them. They're very durable against most long-range shooting.

Thunderfires are quite good and quite cheap for what they do, whether you take one or more. But they have their own particular tactics.

---------------------

On the larger point, if you don't want to run Vulkan there are other good builds. I've seen a couple posted recently. One in a series of battle reports from a GT this weekend (he's just got episode 1 up lack I looked), and one in the big "Are Grey Knights the most broken codex" thread. Let me go dig up the links...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/435339.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1110/417456.page#3901639

There you go.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020609.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Mannahnin wrote:Assault Marines are really not good in C:SM. They're good in blood angels only because they're scoring, can take meltaguns, and can easily get squad-wide Feel No Pain and Furious Assault from priests.


Just because some other force does the same thing better, doesn't mean the points can't work for you. If you're playing against Orks, Tau, IG, Eldar, BT, DA, SW or other Codex Marines, those Assault Marines can still hit hard, contest objectives, tarpit other forces, and with melta bombs, or PF, or plasma pistols, really threaten light armor. I'm not saying they're world beaters... but if a player is struggling but his assault marine play has found its stride... stick with them until the rest of the list is humming along and optimize those points later. Unless its tournament play, keep what works (for now). If it is a tournament, cut them, buy a drop pod with a locator beacon or throw some sarg a teleport homer and turn the TH/SS guys loose on someone's backfield.

BTW: I've found that my LR:Crusaders earn their points back much better than any other LR varient, but that's just me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020657.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Read some of Flavius_Infernus' posts about assault marines. He ran a very good list with 30 of them, Shrike and turn 1-assaulting scouts, and a whole mobile list designed to work together, and while he had some success with them he concluded that he needed at least a 2-1 numerical advantage to win combats against SW or Templars, and that the unit is just too expensive to work in most matchups. He finally shelved them when Grey Knights came out.

I'm a big believer in disregarding internet wisdom and spam lists and finding uses for units other people disregard (heck, check out my Chaos lists). But C:SM AMs are just not good right now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4020671.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
I suppose I could get super advanced with them and magnetize the backpacks and weapons, to convert them into assault or tacticals/sternguard. But that sounds like a lot of work.

I do see the points about sternguard but wouldn't having Pedro's buff give the assault marines a big advantage?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4023730.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4023730.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Your other issue though is likely to be tactics. Like you my first 20 or so games I was getting nailed. Not through poor army list (well, maybe the first 10 games or so!) but because I wasn't playing competitively enough. Whilst it's not true that any list can be competitive, a lot of sub-par lists can win in the hands of a good general. You need to learn what you can expect from each of your units and then, both during deployment and at the start of every turn, you plan what you need to kill this turn, in what order, and then use then things that can kill it to do so. I'm talking about Killhammer - I'm sure the articles on it are either on here on Bolter & Chainsword - just do a search.

A note on the assault marines - I take a squad of 10, led by a chaplain. They do kick ass, but you have to pick your target well. They're not likely to stomp face against dedicated CC units - you should shoot them instead! Ultimately Codex Space Marines are a more shooty army anyway.

And on THSS termies in a landraider - personally I'd walk the termies - that's the point of the storm shield anyway!

And yeah, Land Speeders FTW!!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4025302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4025302.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
6th is not far away.. With it likely alot of whats good now won't be soon.

Personally I would keep running the subpar list you posted. You save money.

You like the units, this game is meant to be fun.

Instead of being concerned about winning every game I would concentrate on not making mistakes. If you lose but can honestly say you didn't make any mistakes (deployment, positioning, target prioity, maximising cover, remember the mission (objectives) etc etc..) Then I'd say you would be taking the better path.

Every wants the magic bullet (guilty), but there aren't shortcuts.


Focus on maximising every unit you have. Then when you make no mistakes upgrade your army, by then you will likely know exactly what you want.

Just my opinion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4029489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4029489.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
Shaman wrote:my 2 cents.

6th is not far away.. With it likely alot of whats good now won't be soon.

Personally I would keep running the subpar list you posted. You save money.

You like the units, this game is meant to be fun.

Instead of being concerned about winning every game I would concentrate on not making mistakes. If you lose but can honestly say you didn't make any mistakes (deployment, positioning, target prioity, maximising cover, remember the mission (objectives) etc etc..) Then I'd say you would be taking the better path.

Every wants the magic bullet (guilty), but there aren't shortcuts.


Focus on maximising every unit you have. Then when you make no mistakes upgrade your army, by then you will likely know exactly what you want.

Just my opinion.


Food for though. I'm hoping to play a game or two this weekend and try out some new stuff, different units and composition. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4032501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4032501.page GMT Keep losing with my failmarines...codex marine player needs help with list/tactics!
40k is a hard game, and it has a pretty steep learning curve. Some lists dont do well against some other lists, but do great against others. If your playing the same group of people, take into account that there list might have implicit advantages over yours.

Try to play AS MANY different people as possible, WITH AS MANY different lists as possible.

You also need to learn how to use your army and your specific list. It usually takes 10 games to learn what your army can and can not do. You learn a few things every game, but by your 10th game you basically have the game plan down. If after 10 games you dont see ANY improvement with your list , then you might want to think about new model composition.

As far as missions. I play eldar alot. I win 90% of the objective missions I get, just because im eldar. That being said, if all I played were kill point missions, I might view my army as bad. My army isnt bad, its just better at objectives. Make sure your playing MANY different battle types.

Good luck, dont loose faith, and take everything into consideration.

The more games you play, against more opponents, you will learn how to win games.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4032554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/434466/4032554.page GMT