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Just wanted to come back and say thanks for the info. I had no idea that the Land Raiders in the 5th Ed Marine book got bumped in transport capacity. Ironically, the GK Godhammer Land Raider is still stuck at transporting only 10 Models.

FWIW, I've decided I'm taking Grey Knights for the event. The list is completely different than the Crowe Purifier list though, in fact it has no Purifiers.

Still, I'm not sure how Crowe isn't an IC, he has the same exact entry as all the other GK characters, including the Grand Master.

Because his fluff of his sword means no one can be by him.

pretre wrote:

Dok wrote:
That is more Space Marines than GK.

That's it. I'm starting a new thread 'Codex: Space Marines is the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

You would be plainly and visibly incorrect. This would imply a trend of either misreading of tournament results (as you have proven capable of earlier) or a bizarre meta field within the tournaments being considered. I'd hazard a guess that it's both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Just wanted to come back and say thanks for the info. I had no idea that the Land Raiders in the 5th Ed Marine book got bumped in transport capacity. Ironically, the GK Godhammer Land Raider is still stuck at transporting only 10 Models.

FWIW, I've decided I'm taking Grey Knights for the event. The list is completely different than the Crowe Purifier list though, in fact it has no Purifiers.

Still, I'm not sure how Crowe isn't an IC, he has the same exact entry as all the other GK characters, including the Grand Master.

It's not as meaningful for grey knights as paladins can be taken in squads of less than five, thus they can still fit a squad+2 independent characters. They're not the best transport choice for pallies though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:The prevalence of SM leaves us with many explanations:

SM were "just that good" all along, and the book stood the test of time
SM were good, but became worse, and now they are good again because of the metagame
There are so many SM players that they will always have enough pro players to place highly
"codex orks 3e" syndrome where only the people pro enough remain with the book and compete in tournaments

Without more placings we'll really never know.

Or they're both just incomplete lists handpicked for this thread due to the lack of GK placings. The Full field listing is neat and fairly legit, but just listing two tournies out of context is virtually meaningless.

Draigo wrote:Because his fluff of his sword means no one can be by him.

I've read the rules for him again and again, but I don't see anything in there that says he can't join any squads. It's been a long day at work, so I could be nuts, but I'd really like to know where and what rule.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Draigo wrote:Because his fluff of his sword means no one can be by him.

I've read the rules for him again and again, but I don't see anything in there that says he can't join any squads. It's been a long day at work, so I could be nuts, but I'd really like to know where and what rule.

Look in the army list section at the back of the book. He is just infantry not IC.

Draigo is spot on.
The drawback with him is giving the opponent an easy kill or basically a free kill point in kp missions.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Draigo wrote:Because his fluff of his sword means no one can be by him.

I've read the rules for him again and again, but I don't see anything in there that says he can't join any squads. It's been a long day at work, so I could be nuts, but I'd really like to know where and what rule.

Welcome to 5th edition. Several of the bad-bottom characters in the more recent books are not ICs and can't join squads. Like Mephiston. Re: the LR, actually none of the current SM codices except vanilla get the 12 capacity on the Phobos LR or on Drop Pods. Those are perks GK, SW, and BA don't get. If I had 12 capacity on my BA LRs I'd run a Phobos in a heartbeat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:

Dok wrote:That is more Space Marines than GK.

That's it. I'm starting a new thread 'Codex: Space Marines is the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

You would be plainly and visibly incorrect. This would imply a trend of either misreading of tournament results (as you have proven capable of earlier) or a bizarre meta field within the tournaments being considered. I'd hazard a guess that it's both.

Is there a smiley-face missing? Is that the problem? A) He's clearly making a joke. B) At least IME, Codex: SM are better and more competitive than you think.

next they will be saying SoB are overpowered....oh, wait shhhh.

Imperial Guard for the win.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:next they will be saying SoB are overpowered....oh, wait shhhh.

Sisters of battle do the best when they dont see actual battle.

Sisters are guardsman with less weapons options and power armor. In addition, they trade their high speed chimera in.... for a rhino where only 2 can stand up and shoot out of despite the hatch being the same size for both vehicles.

Mannahnin wrote:

B) At least IME, Codex: SM are better and more competitive than you think.

Do you really think they are mate?

I don't play cheese or particularly strong lists, but I don't play piss weak ones. You know what I mean, I won't play a Vulcan list or what have you, but I don't take vanguard vets or sniper scouts (anymore, because I painted some but sadly they sucked too badly :( ) and stuff like that. And when I play a semi-competitive list, (say not too troops heavy, a libby, 10 SG in a drop pod, a couple of vindis or dreds and what have you) I get absolutely malleted by SW. Like creamed in all departments. If I assaulted them I got beat up, and If I didn't, I could put about 6 S8+ shots across the board and they could reply with about 15! A dont even start me on JOTWW, Null zone is my best power, and that's pretty much only good against Demons and SS termies!

BA seem the same. Really awesome army that would chew my ultramarines up in assault and pretty much match them at range.

I mean, that's probably another discussion in of itself and I'm asking because I'm not a mega experienced player, but isn't it pretty much a given that short of playing one of only 2-3 cheese lists, Matty's humble Ultramarines will get pwned by every other marine out there? (SW, BA, GK)

mattyrm wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

B) At least IME, Codex: SM are better and more competitive than you think.

Do you really think they are mate?

I don't play cheese or particularly strong lists, but I don't play piss weak ones. You know what I mean, I won't play a Vulcan list or what have you, but I don't take vanguard vets or sniper scouts (anymore, because I painted some but sadly they sucked too badly :( ) and stuff like that. And when I play a semi-competitive list, (say not too troops heavy, a libby, 10 SG in a drop pod, a couple of vindis or dreds and what have you) I get absolutely malleted by SW. Like creamed in all departments. If I assaulted them I got beat up, and If I didn't, I could put about 6 S8+ shots across the board and they could reply with about 15! A dont even start me on JOTWW, Null zone is my best power, and that's pretty much only good against Demons and SS termies!

BA seem the same. Really awesome army that would chew my ultramarines up in assault and pretty much match them at range.

I mean, that's probably another discussion in of itself and I'm asking because I'm not a mega experienced player, but isn't it pretty much a given that short of playing one of only 2-3 cheese lists, Matty's humble Ultramarines will get pwned by every other marine out there? (SW, BA, GK)

You are correct in your observations. A "build a list with a few units here and there" from Codex: Space Marines will fail miserably against even a mediocre GK, SW, or BA list. If you are fighting those armies, I would highly recommend going to a Vulkan build.
It will even the playing field tremendously.

Kairos wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

B) At least IME, Codex: SM are better and more competitive than you think.

Do you really think they are mate?

I don't play cheese or particularly strong lists, but I don't play piss weak ones. You know what I mean, I won't play a Vulcan list or what have you, but I don't take vanguard vets or sniper scouts (anymore, because I painted some but sadly they sucked too badly :( ) and stuff like that. And when I play a semi-competitive list, (say not too troops heavy, a libby, 10 SG in a drop pod, a couple of vindis or dreds and what have you) I get absolutely malleted by SW. Like creamed in all departments. If I assaulted them I got beat up, and If I didn't, I could put about 6 S8+ shots across the board and they could reply with about 15! A dont even start me on JOTWW, Null zone is my best power, and that's pretty much only good against Demons and SS termies!

BA seem the same. Really awesome army that would chew my ultramarines up in assault and pretty much match them at range.

I mean, that's probably another discussion in of itself and I'm asking because I'm not a mega experienced player, but isn't it pretty much a given that short of playing one of only 2-3 cheese lists, Matty's humble Ultramarines will get pwned by every other marine out there? (SW, BA, GK)

You are correct in your observations. A "build a list with a few units here and there" from Codex: Space Marines will fail miserably against even a mediocre GK, SW, or BA list. If you are fighting those armies, I would highly recommend going to a Vulkan build.
It will even the playing field tremendously.

Vulkan is the competitive space marine builds. He's one of the best force multipliers in the game and does it to all the units and weapons that are good in fifth and good in the space marine codex. He's it. He's the gatorade.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kairos wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

B) At least IME, Codex: SM are better and more competitive than you think.

Do you really think they are mate?

I don't play cheese or particularly strong lists, but I don't play piss weak ones. You know what I mean, I won't play a Vulcan list or what have you, but I don't take vanguard vets or sniper scouts (anymore, because I painted some but sadly they sucked too badly :( ) and stuff like that. And when I play a semi-competitive list, (say not too troops heavy, a libby, 10 SG in a drop pod, a couple of vindis or dreds and what have you) I get absolutely malleted by SW. Like creamed in all departments. If I assaulted them I got beat up, and If I didn't, I could put about 6 S8+ shots across the board and they could reply with about 15! A dont even start me on JOTWW, Null zone is my best power, and that's pretty much only good against Demons and SS termies!

BA seem the same. Really awesome army that would chew my ultramarines up in assault and pretty much match them at range.

I mean, that's probably another discussion in of itself and I'm asking because I'm not a mega experienced player, but isn't it pretty much a given that short of playing one of only 2-3 cheese lists, Matty's humble Ultramarines will get pwned by every other marine out there? (SW, BA, GK)

You are correct in your observations. A "build a list with a few units here and there" from Codex: Space Marines will fail miserably against even a mediocre GK, SW, or BA list. If you are fighting those armies, I would highly recommend going to a Vulkan build.
It will even the playing field tremendously.

Vulkan is the competitive space marine builds. He's one of the best force multipliers in the game and does it to all the units and weapons that are good in fifth and good in the space marine codex. He's it. He's the gatorade.

Yeah that sucks eh?

I reckon I could build a few cheese lists other than Vulkan, what about spamming SG with combi melta/flamers and pedro?

But as I said, I dont want to look like TFG so I dont make them.

Ergo, I dont play in tourneys anymore. It was soul destroying at the dakka tourney when 90% of the guys had lists like mine, and then some random bloke with 16 posts turns up with a counts as space wolves list and shoots everyone else off the board.

I reckon I could build a few cheese lists other than Vulkan, what about spamming SG with combi melta's and pedro?

It's not terrible, but you'll get rocked by GKs and mech due to your inferior anti mech range and low model count with no invulns. Pedro sterns is a fun army, very versatile, but it lacks a lot of what makes armies very competitive and you still have to take tacticals for the troop slot.

But as I said, I dont want to look like TFG so I dont make them.

You're using C:SM, there is no TFG build in C:SM.

Ergo, I dont play in tourneys anymore. It was soul destroying at the dakka tourney when 90% of the guys had lists like mine, and then some random bloke with 16 posts turns up with a counts as space wolves list and shoots everyone else off the board.

The tournament meta in my local area is pretty harsh. I manage to do middle of the road with my marines, but without vulkan I can't really beat mech guard and I have to purpose build anti GK lists to beat them. I lost my soul and recently started making sanguinary guard for my charcharadons anyway. I justify it by saying that the playstyle of the charcharadons is closer to BAs then it could be under C:SM (and it's pretty true).

mattyrm wrote: I'm not a mega experienced player, but isn't it pretty much a given that short of playing one of only 2-3 cheese lists, Matty's humble Ultramarines will get pwned by every other marine out there? (SW, BA, GK)

1850pts

HQ - Libby, terminator, SS - null zone, vortex

EL - Dreadnought
EL - Dreadnought
EL - 5 TH/SS terminators, Land Raider

TR - 10 Marines, lascannon, meltagun, lazerback
TR - 10 Marines, lascannon, meltagun, lazerback
TR - 10 Marines, missile, meltagun, combi-melta, fist, rhino, hk

FA - Typhoon

HV - Thunderfire cannon
HV - Predator, heavy bolters


One of the strongest all-comers list you can make from any codex and pure vanilla marines. No names, no spam, just a lot of "what the hell just beat me?" It takes a while to master, but it doesn't win by doing just one thing to win each game. It wins by doing one thing better than the opponent each game and that thing can be a different thing each game A pure 'water' list which reacts to the opponent and doesn't dictate. Call it the 'Rope-a-Dope' list or the 'Sea of Gizz'.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I reckon I could build a few cheese lists other than Vulkan, what about spamming SG with combi melta's and pedro?

It's not terrible, but you'll get rocked by GKs and mech due to your inferior anti mech range and low model count with no invulns. Pedro sterns is a fun army, very versatile, but it lacks a lot of what makes armies very competitive and you still have to take tacticals for the troop slot.

Yeah it's those tacticals that annoy me because I always take loads! I always try to take two full ten man squads at 1000pts because I hate the idea of a SM army not actually having many SMs in! (Im pretty into fluff, so two 5 man squads and then all SG/termies etc just doesnt wash with me) and they really do suck. I give the Sgt a combi weapon because that's pretty nice (two flamers is decent on a turn) but they blow. 180pts a pop and they get pretty much mashed by everyone. Even when I get the charge off and rush them into a mob of ork boys they kinda suck, they kill about 6-7, but then the Nob caves their heads in and plenty die simply to amount of dice incoming.

And I spend ages on my camo cloak sniper scouts, and they never kill anything. I think only the 5 man CCW scouts in a LSS perform for me.

Basically vanilla really need better troops choices. SMs are supposed to be nails!

The tournament meta in my local area is pretty harsh. I manage to do middle of the road with my marines, but without vulkan I can't really beat mech guard and I have to purpose build anti GK lists to beat them. I lost my soul and recently started making sanguinary guard for my charcharadons anyway. I justify it by saying that the playstyle of the charcharadons is closer to BAs then it could be under C:SM (and it's pretty true).

Hey you gotta do what you gotta do mate, It sounds harsh where your competing, and that's tourneys for you, but I really really hate "counts as" due to that guy with hardly any posts with his sisters of battle/counts as space wolves.

I just wont bother with tourneys anymore..

Well, unless its £1 a pint at Warhammer world again, then ill just turn up and happily lose again. It will take the edge off if I purposely play to lose because I know my opponent is cheesing it up. Like I can send my terminators for a stroll in the woods and have my tactical marines go for a swim in the pond.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:

mattyrm wrote: I'm not a mega experienced player, but isn't it pretty much a given that short of playing one of only 2-3 cheese lists, Matty's humble Ultramarines will get pwned by every other marine out there? (SW, BA, GK)

1850pts

HQ - Libby, terminator, SS - null zone, vortex

EL - Dreadnought
EL - Dreadnought
EL - 5 TH/SS terminators, Land Raider

TR - 10 Marines, lascannon, meltagun, lazerback
TR - 10 Marines, lascannon, meltagun, lazerback
TR - 10 Marines, missile, meltagun, combi-melta, fist, rhino, hk

FA - Typhoon

HV - Thunderfire cannon
HV - Predator, heavy bolters


One of the strongest all-comers list you can make from any codex and pure vanilla marines. No names, no spam, just a lot of "what the hell just beat me?" It takes a while to master, but it doesn't win by doing just one thing to win each game. It wins by doing one thing better than the opponent each game and that thing can be a different thing each game A pure 'water' list which reacts to the opponent and doesn't dictate. Call it the 'Rope-a-Dope' list or the 'Sea of Gizz'.

Hey thanks for that mate, ill have a play of it next time I visit albatross.

mattyrm wrote: Hey you gotta do what you gotta do mate, It sounds harsh where your competing, and that's tourneys for you, but I really really hate "counts as" due to that guy with hardly any posts with his sisters of battle/counts as space wolves.

There isn't really a SOB counts as SW is there?

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Hey you gotta do what you gotta do mate, It sounds harsh where your competing, and that's tourneys for you, but I really really hate "counts as" due to that guy with hardly any posts with his sisters of battle/counts as space wolves.

There isn't really a SOB counts as SW is there?

It was a space marines army painted with that sorta, sisters looking color scheme like this one..



But brighter white and red. I presume he loaned it off a friend..

Or maybe it WAS actual sisters, I think the lads were pretty easy going with the "counts as" rule, and I had drank about 8 pints of Kronenbourg by this time.

I was asleep in my stool when they gave the prizes out.

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Hey you gotta do what you gotta do mate, It sounds harsh where your competing, and that's tourneys for you, but I really really hate "counts as" due to that guy with hardly any posts with his sisters of battle/counts as space wolves.

There isn't really a SOB counts as SW is there?

I've seen SOB counts as GKs.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I've seen SOB counts as GKs.

Aiiieeeee!!

I proper hate people that crack drills like that me. If your going to be a TFG, at least take the time to model and paint your army nicely!

mattyrm wrote:

pretre wrote:There isn't really a SOB counts as SW is there?

It was a space marines army painted with that sorta, sisters looking color scheme like this one..

But brighter white and red. I presume he loaned it off a friend..

Or maybe it WAS actual sisters, I think the lads were pretty easy going with the "counts as" rule, and I had drank about 8 pints of Kronenbourg by this time.

I was asleep in my stool when they gave the prizes out.

I don't know if that counts then. I've heard of other counts-as for sisters (Blood Angels makes a little sense) but SW just feels wrong.

mattyrm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I've seen SOB counts as GKs.

Aiiieeeee!!

I proper hate people that crack drills like that me. If your going to be a TFG, at least take the time to model and paint your army nicely!

In fairness it's probably more expensive in dollars to make a counts as sisters GK army than it is to make a real one.

...Now I want to see SoB on Thunderwolves.

mattyrm wrote:

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Hey you gotta do what you gotta do mate, It sounds harsh where your competing, and that's tourneys for you, but I really really hate "counts as" due to that guy with hardly any posts with his sisters of battle/counts as space wolves.

There isn't really a SOB counts as SW is there?

It was a space marines army painted with that sorta, sisters looking color scheme like this one..



But brighter white and red. I presume he loaned it off a friend..

Or maybe it WAS actual sisters, I think the lads were pretty easy going with the "counts as" rule, and I had drank about 8 pints of Kronenbourg by this time.

I was asleep in my stool when they gave the prizes out.

Thats not counts as, that's just a space wolf offshoot. He's got wolfy shoulder pads.

pretre wrote:
I don't know if that counts then. I've heard of other counts-as for sisters (Blood Angels makes a little sense) but SW just feels wrong.

It felt wrong as I swayed drunkenly in my seat whilst watching his brightly coloured hairless space wolves shoot the gak out of everyone as well!

Sekai wrote:...Now I want to see SoB on Thunderwolves.

We're getting rather OT, but in a proposed SOB rules thread, I suggested full armor SoB with shield and lance on mechanical horses (like the fantasy empire engineer) as a new unit.

pretre wrote:

Sekai wrote:...Now I want to see SoB on Thunderwolves.

We're getting rather OT, but in a proposed SOB rules thread, I suggested full armor SoB with shield and lance on mechanical horses (like the fantasy empire engineer) as a new unit.

That seems pretty far outside of any fluff or visual influence that they have. I'd probably do something with arco flagellants or try and make mini penitent engines or something.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Thats not counts as, that's just a space wolf offshoot. He's got wolfy shoulder pads.

Aye mate, that's just an image I got off google, it wasn't that army. I'm just saying other than the pads it was kinda similar, it was like a two colour red and white scheme with loads of ecclesiastical markings and such. You know.. it had plenty of those boyscout looking things on it. Like this here..

Slightly OTT, but I think Ravenguard SM could be competitive. Not the most balanced, but IMO is a strong hammer list. Of course most people would say its kind of cheesy, but....


Shrike
Librarian - Storm Shield + TDA

10x TH/SS Terminators
10x TH/SS Terminators

10x Scounts - Snipers, 1x Missiles, Camo Cloaks
10x Scounts - Snipers, 1x Missiles, Telion

2x Attack Bikes - Multi-meltas
2x Attack Bikes - Multi-meltas
Land Speeder - HF/MM

Thunderfire Cannon
Vindicator

2000pts


Shrike would normally infiltrate with terminators and librarian. Scouts combat squad in objectives games. Techmarine reinforces 1 building for scouts, who go-to-ground against heavy fire for the 2+ cover.