LumbarGibbon wrote:
I ordered one but I hasn't arrived was just curious because want to get them the day the codex arrives.

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Palindrome wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Game rules aren't copyrightable.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

Palindrome wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Game rules aren't copyrightable.

 grendel083 wrote:
By themselves GreyHunters outperform Bloodclaws.
But stick a Wolf Priest in there (Preferred Enemy) and they'll tear through things in combat a lot better than the GreyHunters.
A LandRaider Crusader, WolfPriest, full squad of Bloodclaws with 2 flamers is truly fearsome.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
By themselves GreyHunters outperform Bloodclaws.
But stick a Wolf Priest in there (Preferred Enemy) and they'll tear through things in combat a lot better than the GreyHunters.
A LandRaider Crusader, WolfPriest, full squad of Bloodclaws with 2 flamers is truly fearsome.

Except that 10 Grey Hunters with all the trimmings and Prescience from a Rune Priest will take the Blood Claw charge and kick their teeth in, while costing 30 points less. Plus, the Rune Priest will probably kill the Wolf Priest since the RP's force weapon cuts through the WP's power armor, while the WP's mace gives the RP his armor save (and he gets to reroll the 1s on them for the crucial first round). All told, that 575 point Blood Claw delivery system probably kills 2 Grey Hunters after all their saves are made. The Grey Hunters kill just over half the Blood Claws. The Blood Claws need snake eyes to not break and run since the Rune Priest has a much better than average chance of killing the Wolf Priest.

Blood Claws are bad. They are a neat idea, but until they drop to 13 points each, they'll remain bad.

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

Grey Hunters should cost 19 points / model, but instead they cost 15 points. Blood Claws are about right at 15 points per model. Not everything in Kelly's books work, a few things are blatently OP. In SW he got one of the troop choices wrong and you end up with codex Grey Hunters and Long Fangs

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

Grey Hunters should cost 19 points / model, but instead they cost 15 points. Blood Claws are about right at 15 points per model. Not everything in Kelly's books work, a few things are blatently OP. In SW he got one of the troop choices wrong and you end up with codex Grey Hunters and Long Fangs

19pts each? I think that'd be steep, even in the pre-BA/GK/CSM world when it was released... They'd be fine around 17pts, give or take 1pt. One of the main reasons they're so good though is because of all the upgrades they can buy - Wolf Standard, Wulfen and a free special weapon they could actually do something with (unlike Blood Claws). GH should have an option like they have for CSM - 15pts base with CC/BP, or buy a bolter for +2pts.

 grendel083 wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
By themselves GreyHunters outperform Bloodclaws.
But stick a Wolf Priest in there (Preferred Enemy) and they'll tear through things in combat a lot better than the GreyHunters.
A LandRaider Crusader, WolfPriest, full squad of Bloodclaws with 2 flamers is truly fearsome.

Except that 10 Grey Hunters with all the trimmings and Prescience from a Rune Priest will take the Blood Claw charge and kick their teeth in, while costing 30 points less. Plus, the Rune Priest will probably kill the Wolf Priest since the RP's force weapon cuts through the WP's power armor, while the WP's mace gives the RP his armor save (and he gets to reroll the 1s on them for the crucial first round). All told, that 575 point Blood Claw delivery system probably kills 2 Grey Hunters after all their saves are made. The Grey Hunters kill just over half the Blood Claws. The Blood Claws need snake eyes to not break and run since the Rune Priest has a much better than average chance of killing the Wolf Priest.

Blood Claws are bad. They are a neat idea, but until they drop to 13 points each, they'll remain bad.

In the land of Rainbows and Unicorns...
I'm sorry that's just unrealistic.
Overwatch will rarely kill more than one.
Wolf Priest Vs. Rune Priest is a lot more even, as they come with a 4++ and higher Str.
Preferred Enemy lasts beyond first turn. Wolf Banner doesn't.
Numbers and a higher number of attacks would give them an edge, MEQ Vs. MEQ fights go on for a long time due to power armour. There is no chance they could kill half the unit in one turn.

But the idea of having the two fight each other is pointless.
Bloodclaws are great for tearing things up in combat, GreyHunters are a more all-round unit.
Right tools or the right job.
Saying they're 'bad' is simply not understanding how and when to use them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or put another way.

10 Bloodclaws Vs. 10 GreyHunters
Assuming the Bloodclaws charge and the GreyHunters pass the counter attack test.

GreyHunters
30 attacks
20 Hits
10 wounds
1 or 2 dead

Bloodclaws
40 attacks
20 Hits
10 wounds
1 or 2 dead

Still bad? Looks even. That's without a full squad or a Wolf Priest.
GreyHunters are far more flexible. But a full unit of Bloodclaws with all the toys will do a lot more if they get he charge. They're far from bad.

I believe in last codex Grey Hunters were 16 points and you had to pay 1 for a bolter and 1 for frag. So 15 is a little low for what you get now lol. I can see 17-18 being acceptable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/09 00:10:54

Palindrome wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Game rules aren't copyrightable.

 Digriz wrote:
I think if GH were 16 pts and BC were 14 pts then you would see more BC's. I dont think making GH's 17 points is right as they are not as versatile as vanilla tac squads. If GH's had a squad leader, access to 12 man DP and long range weapons, then maybe, as they dont have these options, counter charge and effectively +1A in CC but Ld8 makes them equal to a 16 pt marine IMO. BC's lower BS, WS and uncontrollable urge to charge should make them a couple of points less per model.

 Digriz wrote:
Yes I think they are less versatile. They are good, dont get me wrong, and cheap for what they are, but if they were more expensive that a tac marine squad I would rather have a tac marine squad, To me they are simlar balanced on their abilities. Being able to have a squad of 10 split into 2 squads of 5 if you want is very nice in objective missions. Sergeants are great. GH can have a hidden powerfist true, but only 1 attack with it. I would rather have a character in their to soak up combat monsters attacks in a challenge. GH can have WG as pack leaders, but then you cant put them in a DP or Rhino without losing your second weapon. Also Ld8 is not great, the sergeant defo makes tac marines better than SW in all things other than combat, where the SW naturally are better because of CA and weapon config.
So tactially tac marines are more versatile, GH are just as good as them, but IMO not any better overall. Hence why I agree they are currently too cheap, but should only be the same price as a vanilla marine.

 Digriz wrote:
yes I tend to ignore anytrhing chaos related, its in my genes....

Personally I hate comparing unit for unit costs between armies as the balance of the army as a whole has to be taken into consideration. I realise how stupid that statement sounds after my last post or 2, but comparing GH to vanilla marines is about as close as you can get, comparing to chaos doesnt fly with me (SW only have GH and BC as troop choices), anyway, at the end of the day, the difference between 1 ponit is neither here nor there in the big picture, my main argument was always that I would like BC's to be cheaper than GH's and therefor make GH's more expensive and/or drop the price of BC's.

In a world where GKs exist, I don't think GHs are over priced at all. Especially since it is one of exactly 2 troop choices. Comparing to Chaos is a bit misleading as they have cultists for filler and lots of options with marks and what not. Tacs, however, could use a points reduction or get BPs back to actually make them flexible.