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I've been looking at the Space Wolves and I noticed that the Blood Claws have lower WS and BS than all the other Space Wolves, Scouts have more than them, are they just cheaper to bring or do they have specials rules and such that make them worth bringing?

Berserk Charge.

Removed as I wrote something that was silly, if there was an embarassed face....... both seem appropriate.

Perhaps check the Codex?

Page 25 of the Space Wolf Codex.

Two things:
1. Wrong forum.
2. Do you even own the codex? Why are you asking us what a unit has?

I ordered one but I hasn't arrived was just curious because want to get them the day the codex arrives.

LumbarGibbon wrote:
I ordered one but I hasn't arrived was just curious because want to get them the day the codex arrives.

It's against forum rules to hand out rules from the Codex.
Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Fluff wise they are Space Wolves initiates. Unlike most chapters new Space Wolves dont start out as scouts (I think that's how normal chapters work) As I cant tell you exact details on them I wont tell you what the specific rules are but they are more CC oriented then Grey Hunters due to special rules they have. I would recommend Sky Claws if you want to run one of the claw variants as the jetpacks help them get to CC faster.

Sorry my apologies for this, I'm still not used to using forums and such and didn't know about the codex copyright rules. Thanks though for the help though.

To answer your question, practically, there is no reason to take BCs over GHs. The higher WS, BS, weapon options, etc. make GH superior in almost every way. Shame, as BCs are supposed to be a defining aspect of SW.

Alot of us SW players have BCs from when they were significantly cheaper and better assault units and some people like to field them as fun units.

Really then bring a squad for having them, I'd most likely do that just because I like accuracy to the lore, a squad of BC's with Lukas the Trickster would be fun, just from a fluff standpoint.

Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Game rules aren't copyrightable.

They're there for fluff. That's pretty much it.

Palindrome wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Game rules aren't copyrightable.

I think it's the terms of a license between GW and DakkaDakka that states we can't state the rules of the game directly, if asked. I'm not sure they have much legal grounding really, but you know what GW are like.

There was a time when SW armies were better off taking more blood claws than Grey hunters...oh 3rd edition how I miss those days.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

Grey Hunters should cost 19 points / model, but instead they cost 15 points. Blood Claws are about right at 15 points per model. Not everything in Kelly's books work, a few things are blatently OP. In SW he got one of the troop choices wrong and you end up with codex Grey Hunters and Long Fangs

By themselves GreyHunters outperform Bloodclaws.
But stick a Wolf Priest in there (Preferred Enemy) and they'll tear through things in combat a lot better than the GreyHunters.
A LandRaider Crusader, WolfPriest, full squad of Bloodclaws with 2 flamers is truly fearsome.

Palindrome wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Game rules aren't copyrightable.

It's not illegal to post rules.

It's not allowed on dakka because GW lawyers would go mad and cause trouble for yak and the rest of the bunch.

 grendel083 wrote:
By themselves GreyHunters outperform Bloodclaws.
But stick a Wolf Priest in there (Preferred Enemy) and they'll tear through things in combat a lot better than the GreyHunters.
A LandRaider Crusader, WolfPriest, full squad of Bloodclaws with 2 flamers is truly fearsome.

Except that 10 Grey Hunters with all the trimmings and Prescience from a Rune Priest will take the Blood Claw charge and kick their teeth in, while costing 30 points less. Plus, the Rune Priest will probably kill the Wolf Priest since the RP's force weapon cuts through the WP's power armor, while the WP's mace gives the RP his armor save (and he gets to reroll the 1s on them for the crucial first round). All told, that 575 point Blood Claw delivery system probably kills 2 Grey Hunters after all their saves are made. The Grey Hunters kill just over half the Blood Claws. The Blood Claws need snake eyes to not break and run since the Rune Priest has a much better than average chance of killing the Wolf Priest.

Blood Claws are bad. They are a neat idea, but until they drop to 13 points each, they'll remain bad.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
By themselves GreyHunters outperform Bloodclaws.
But stick a Wolf Priest in there (Preferred Enemy) and they'll tear through things in combat a lot better than the GreyHunters.
A LandRaider Crusader, WolfPriest, full squad of Bloodclaws with 2 flamers is truly fearsome.

Except that 10 Grey Hunters with all the trimmings and Prescience from a Rune Priest will take the Blood Claw charge and kick their teeth in, while costing 30 points less. Plus, the Rune Priest will probably kill the Wolf Priest since the RP's force weapon cuts through the WP's power armor, while the WP's mace gives the RP his armor save (and he gets to reroll the 1s on them for the crucial first round). All told, that 575 point Blood Claw delivery system probably kills 2 Grey Hunters after all their saves are made. The Grey Hunters kill just over half the Blood Claws. The Blood Claws need snake eyes to not break and run since the Rune Priest has a much better than average chance of killing the Wolf Priest.

Blood Claws are bad. They are a neat idea, but until they drop to 13 points each, they'll remain bad.

In the land of Rainbows and Unicorns...
I'm sorry that's just unrealistic.
Overwatch will rarely kill more than one.
Wolf Priest Vs. Rune Priest is a lot more even, as they come with a 4++ and higher Str.
Preferred Enemy lasts beyond first turn. Wolf Banner doesn't.
Numbers and a higher number of attacks would give them an edge, MEQ Vs. MEQ fights go on for a long time due to power armour. There is no chance they could kill half the unit in one turn.

But the idea of having the two fight each other is pointless.
Bloodclaws are great for tearing things up in combat, GreyHunters are a more all-round unit.
Right tools or the right job.
Saying they're 'bad' is simply not understanding how and when to use them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or put another way.

10 Bloodclaws Vs. 10 GreyHunters
Assuming the Bloodclaws charge and the GreyHunters pass the counter attack test.

GreyHunters
30 attacks
20 Hits
10 wounds
1 or 2 dead

Bloodclaws
40 attacks
20 Hits
10 wounds
1 or 2 dead

Still bad? Looks even. That's without a full squad or a Wolf Priest.
GreyHunters are far more flexible. But a full unit of Bloodclaws with all the toys will do a lot more if they get he charge. They're far from bad.

Blood Claws deal the punch.

Grey Hunters take the punch.

Spot on.

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

Grey Hunters should cost 19 points / model, but instead they cost 15 points. Blood Claws are about right at 15 points per model. Not everything in Kelly's books work, a few things are blatently OP. In SW he got one of the troop choices wrong and you end up with codex Grey Hunters and Long Fangs

19pts each? I think that'd be steep, even in the pre-BA/GK/CSM world when it was released... They'd be fine around 17pts, give or take 1pt. One of the main reasons they're so good though is because of all the upgrades they can buy - Wolf Standard, Wulfen and a free special weapon they could actually do something with (unlike Blood Claws). GH should have an option like they have for CSM - 15pts base with CC/BP, or buy a bolter for +2pts.

Yeah, it'd totally be a bit steep to cost the same as a C: SM TAC squad but be better overall (better options mainly - losing Combat Tactics and Combat Squads is a drawback)

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

Grey Hunters should cost 19 points / model, but instead they cost 15 points. Blood Claws are about right at 15 points per model. Not everything in Kelly's books work, a few things are blatently OP. In SW he got one of the troop choices wrong and you end up with codex Grey Hunters and Long Fangs

19pts each? I think that'd be steep, even in the pre-BA/GK/CSM world when it was released... They'd be fine around 17pts, give or take 1pt. One of the main reasons they're so good though is because of all the upgrades they can buy - Wolf Standard, Wulfen and a free special weapon they could actually do something with (unlike Blood Claws). GH should have an option like they have for CSM - 15pts base with CC/BP, or buy a bolter for +2pts.

but then they get a discount on their unit champion WG and a free special at 10, and they have counter attack. Ill entertain 18ppm, 17 still seems cheap to me.

 grendel083 wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
By themselves GreyHunters outperform Bloodclaws.
But stick a Wolf Priest in there (Preferred Enemy) and they'll tear through things in combat a lot better than the GreyHunters.
A LandRaider Crusader, WolfPriest, full squad of Bloodclaws with 2 flamers is truly fearsome.

Except that 10 Grey Hunters with all the trimmings and Prescience from a Rune Priest will take the Blood Claw charge and kick their teeth in, while costing 30 points less. Plus, the Rune Priest will probably kill the Wolf Priest since the RP's force weapon cuts through the WP's power armor, while the WP's mace gives the RP his armor save (and he gets to reroll the 1s on them for the crucial first round). All told, that 575 point Blood Claw delivery system probably kills 2 Grey Hunters after all their saves are made. The Grey Hunters kill just over half the Blood Claws. The Blood Claws need snake eyes to not break and run since the Rune Priest has a much better than average chance of killing the Wolf Priest.

Blood Claws are bad. They are a neat idea, but until they drop to 13 points each, they'll remain bad.

In the land of Rainbows and Unicorns...
I'm sorry that's just unrealistic.
Overwatch will rarely kill more than one.
Wolf Priest Vs. Rune Priest is a lot more even, as they come with a 4++ and higher Str.
Preferred Enemy lasts beyond first turn. Wolf Banner doesn't.
Numbers and a higher number of attacks would give them an edge, MEQ Vs. MEQ fights go on for a long time due to power armour. There is no chance they could kill half the unit in one turn.

But the idea of having the two fight each other is pointless.
Bloodclaws are great for tearing things up in combat, GreyHunters are a more all-round unit.
Right tools or the right job.
Saying they're 'bad' is simply not understanding how and when to use them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or put another way.

10 Bloodclaws Vs. 10 GreyHunters
Assuming the Bloodclaws charge and the GreyHunters pass the counter attack test.

GreyHunters
30 attacks
20 Hits
10 wounds
1 or 2 dead

Bloodclaws
40 attacks
20 Hits
10 wounds
1 or 2 dead

Still bad? Looks even. That's without a full squad or a Wolf Priest.
GreyHunters are far more flexible. But a full unit of Bloodclaws with all the toys will do a lot more if they get he charge. They're far from bad.

10 wounds with a 3+ save is 3 dead.

Lets look at this with common builds in mind, no characters.

For example

10 Grey Hunters with 2 plasmaguns, power axe, and wolf standard(pretty common build nowaday) is something like 190.

15 Blood Claws w power axe(maybe powerfist since if they get charged they're useless anyways.) is what, 235? 240? No codex on hand atm.

If the Blood Claws charge
56 normal attacks-28 hits-14 wounds-5 dead(rounded up) only 2 dead after wolf standard(again rounded up)
4 power axe-2 hit-2 dead(rounded up)
So far you see you have 4 dead Grey Hunters.

Grey hunters swing back
27 normal attacks- 18 hits-becomes 23(after wolf standard rounding up)- 12 wounds(rounding up)-becomes 14(after wolf standard no need to round up yay!)- 5 dead(rounding up)
3 power axe- 2 hits-becomes 3(after wolf standard rounding up)- 2 dead-becomes 3 dead(after wolf standard rounding up).

So Grey Hunters win 8-4 and for almost half the cost. No overwatch involved(it's not that awesome even with a standard).

Blood Claws just have no place anymore since they're equal in points as Grey Hunters. They require too many elements to even be decent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Blood Claws would be worthwhile if they weren't the same cost as Grey Hunters. As it is, Grey Hunters are far more versatile, and are a no-brainer option. Personally I would model all my Space Wolves with bolt pistol + chainsword, because Grey Hunters are equipped this way anyway, so you can run them as either/or. Plus if one gets better in the next Codex you can just switch over.

Grey Hunters should cost 19 points / model, but instead they cost 15 points. Blood Claws are about right at 15 points per model. Not everything in Kelly's books work, a few things are blatently OP. In SW he got one of the troop choices wrong and you end up with codex Grey Hunters and Long Fangs

19pts each? I think that'd be steep, even in the pre-BA/GK/CSM world when it was released... They'd be fine around 17pts, give or take 1pt. One of the main reasons they're so good though is because of all the upgrades they can buy - Wolf Standard, Wulfen and a free special weapon they could actually do something with (unlike Blood Claws). GH should have an option like they have for CSM - 15pts base with CC/BP, or buy a bolter for +2pts.

but then they get a discount on their unit champion WG and a free special at 10, and they have counter attack. Ill entertain 18ppm, 17 still seems cheap to me.

I believe in last codex Grey Hunters were 16 points and you had to pay 1 for a bolter and 1 for frag. So 15 is a little low for what you get now lol. I can see 17-18 being acceptable.

I believe in last codex Grey Hunters were 16 points and you had to pay 1 for a bolter and 1 for frag. So 15 is a little low for what you get now lol. I can see 17-18 being acceptable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/09 00:10:54

17 points, didn't have bolter, ccw, and bp, just had CCW and BP, but for one point more they could take a bolter and CCW instead.

So the modern GH should be about 18, but with the changes in rules I think 17 should do well.

Palindrome wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Copyright and all that. We don't want GW layers to close down the site now do we?

Game rules aren't copyrightable.

Still against forum rules and all that ^^