<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
A Rhino can carry the whole squad at full strength, A razorback cannot. In fact, it would take 2 Razorbacks to transport the whole squad.

I can understand why you are limited in terms of the rules, but what fluff reasons are there?

Does the codex Astartes specify 1 transport per squad, regardless of its capacity? Are there simply not enough of them to assign 2 per squad?

How does the second combat squad redeploy in a timely fashion between battles if they have to walk?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056423.page GMT Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad? 40k rules work, but not necessarily how things work in the fluff, if memory serves GW actually revised the EPIC marine rules so that a squad had to take 2 Razorbacks instead of just 1.

I'm not aware of any actual fluff that says squads can only have one. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056441.page GMT Re:Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad? That being said, minimum squad size for Space Marines is 5, and those fit into the Razorback nicely. I would hazard a guess that the fluff assumes that you're not supposed to run maxed out squads and split them up between multiple vehicles. If you want two Razorbacks and 10 Marines, do it with two squads. Each of the units will require its own Sergeant to give them orders. After all, who's supposed to call the shots in the 2nd IFV?

In theory, there should be sufficient Razorbacks to assign them. Drivers and vehicles are often pulled from the Reserve Companies (which is how the whole 1.000 Marines per Chapter deal can actually work), and it has been said that most engagements feature a Battle Company augmented by elements of the Reserve.

As for redeployment - Thunderhawks. Space Marines are shock troops intended to strike fast and hard, then disappear again, so they won't do (or rather shouldn't do) kilometer-long marches on foot or in vehicles anyways. The tactical doctrine is to show up without warning, punch a hole into a heavily fortified enemy stronghold, and leave the mopping-up to the Guard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056449.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056449.page GMT Re:Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
 Lynata wrote:
After all, who's supposed to call the shots in the 2nd IFV?


The same guy who always calls the shots in the 2nd Combat Squad, whether they're on foot or in a vehicle wouldn't make a difference. Back in 2nd edition he was called a Squad Leader/Veteran, the position/rank was quetly forgotten along with Combat Squads in 3rd edition and GW has rather stupidly neglected to bring them back after reintroducing Combat Squads. Altho interestingly How to Paint Space Marines and the 4th edition codex did seemingly include Squad Leader markings. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056554.page GMT Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
If you can take two Razorbacks per squad, you've suddenly doubled the number of armed transports in the same point value army.

Whereas you can also represent the same squad broken in two parts by simply taking two different squads.


It's not a perfect substitution, but, then again 40K isn't a perfect game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5056565.page GMT Re:Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
 Lynata wrote:
minimum squad size for Space Marines is 5, and those fit into the Razorback nicely. I would hazard a guess that the fluff assumes that you're not supposed to run maxed out squads and split them up between multiple vehicles. If you want two Razorbacks and 10 Marines, do it with two squads.

Bingo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5059985.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5059985.page GMT Re:Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
 Lynata wrote:
I'm not sure of the actual in-game reasons, perhaps it really is just a game mechanic thing so that you'd have to make something up.

Most likely. Super-heavy-transports may ferry multiple units of an army, and armies are defined as models from one player...so sticking loyalists and traitors by pure game mechanics into the same transport would be legal, but rather short lived if running this fluffy.

 Lynata wrote:

That being said, minimum squad size for Space Marines is 5, and those fit into the Razorback nicely. I would hazard a guess that the fluff assumes that you're not supposed to run maxed out squads and split them up between multiple vehicles. If you want two Razorbacks and 10 Marines, do it with two squads. Each of the units will require its own Sergeant to give them orders. After all, who's supposed to call the shots in the 2nd IFV?


Guard requires orders, usually, Space Marines may live without a sarge.. may I point to the old special rule of the Salamanders where to be last survivor of a squad wasn't a problem ?



 Lynata wrote:

In theory, there should be sufficient Razorbacks to assign them. Drivers and vehicles are often pulled from the Reserve Companies (which is how the whole 1.000 Marines per Chapter deal can actually work), and it has been said that most engagements feature a Battle Company augmented by elements of the Reserve.

So tied to this claim, of a working 1k deal? Something that was disproven again and again?
Drivers and vehicles aren't pulled from reserve. Because the reserve is reinforcing the main line as a whole, no scattered amongst other companies as drivers.

.......................................................................................................................................................................................

Now, lets get this a bit cleared of the fog of the millenia...

The codex itself and how reliable a copy may be about the organization provided by it:

Insignium astartes, page 8:
The original codex was compiled approximately ten thousand years ago...
<snip>
Over the millenia the copies have been copied and recopied many times in order to preserve them. Inevitably, mistakes occur and so it is unlikely that any two copies of the codex will be identical.
Furthermore, the work is constantly being reanalysed and reinterpreted.
The original prose style of Roboute ( Gulliman ) is at best archaic and in some cases almost unintelligible.
This has led to many varied interpretations over the centuries and to many situations where two entirely different doctrines have been legitimately claimed as 'offficial' codex at the same time.


Thus, there will be no exact answer to a specific question. Lost in time is much of this tome.
How many razorbacks would a chapter have? How many could be distributed to squads? Who will know?
So we have to rely on examples.


Official publications from 3rd to 5/6th ed:

1) all is based on STC.
Index astartes IV, predator, pages 58 to 61.

A nice source, a bit old but still explains why the basic STC tech is so important and the process of the creation of one of the vehicles based on a rhino chassis. The basic rhino and the predator are pretty ancient, pre-imperial designs, we know the variants GW and FW provide. The razorback is rather new, found 5000 years after the heresy.
Where the rhino was the basic transport and the predator the fire support, the new razorback combined both roles.
The main advantage of the STC tech is, the basic chassis is adaptable to any config known, if you got the parts to build it, all variants are open to you.
The crew of a predator, would be 2 space marines. Back in the days of detailed info, crews were listed...
The crew is also said to have specialized in armored warfare, having even some training in basic repairs.

2) vehicle pool of the company.

Insignium astartes, page 47:
All of the Companies, with the exception of the scout company, maintain a pool of transport vehicles. The most common of these are the rhino and its up-gunned variant the razorback.


A pool suggests its possible to distribute the vehicles you have. A Captain may do so with the companies own vehicles , the rest belongs to the Chapter masters choice.

2a) organization of the Dark Angels:
codex DA, page 15.

Companies have rhinos and dreads of their own, but razorbacks are part of the Arsenal. Landspeeder seem to be Ravenwing exclusive. Reserve there to support the main line, again no drivers...

2b) organization of the Blood Angels:
codex BA, page 8.

Companies have rhinos and razorbacks of their own, plus the real large assembly of Land Raiders of the Arsenal easily allows for armored spearheads. Reserve again as support of the main line, not drivers...

2c) black templars razorbacks:
codex BT, page 38.

Razorback, crew = 1 BT. Rhino > crew = 1 BT. ( This is the actual Razorback scheme, not the previous with a open turret and a gunner. ) See also page 41, predator, vindicator > crew = 2 BT. And page 42, LR > crew = 3 BT.

index astartes II, page 50 and codex BT, page 65.:
Donian crusade. assembled forces , numbers estimated...

Lead elements with mostly Land Raiders and a few rhinos and razorbacks, groups of more than standard company size ( ~200% ) with about 2-3 Land Raiders, 7-11 rhinos, 6-7 razorbacks. Not enough transport capacity for all members but fleet elements like thunderhawks to make up for that. Assault and / or heavy support attached to them, the non-codex formation still isn't likely to offer a chance to see squads split and multiple vehicles used.

2d) organization of codex adherent, the Ultramarines:

index astartes I , page 14:

Each company has rhinos......... and where are the razorbacks?
- missing in that source completly, like the predators and the vindicators and the whirlwinds etc.

codex space marines, 3rd edition, ( crimson fists cover ):

Begins with a pic of the assembled Ultramarines, squads and their transports alongside. One may notice, everyone got rhinos, but the razorbacks are at the flanks, like the predators and whirlwinds. Didn't have vindicators there...
but mobile gun platforms ? from the previous edition ? I'd guess.

Codex space marines was the base of all of the astartes back then, "flavors" getting small mini-codices to add their own spice. Also the day of the old chassis, the old razorback with a crewed turret.
To split a squad wasn't available, just a choice of 5-10 models.

same codex, page 46 ,organization of the Ultramarines and examples of forces fielded by them:

Rhinos, Landspeeders, bikes and dreads are distributed amongst the companies. Razorbacks?
Found in the Arsenal and HQ.

Squads could choose razorbacks as dedicated transport, but on this page you find them in small numbers ( 19 for the whole chapter! ) , where the rhino is sometimes available twice as much as the company needs to ferry all members around.
1st Co has 18 rhinos! plus 7 Land Raider... . Maybe they need to repent, Gulliman surely never stated each marine needs his own ride.

Additionally, only one example of a interception-force sent out includes razorbacks at all.

codex space marines 4th edition, ( MC cover ).

- page 35, razorback:
crew = 1 space marine.
Rhino also 1 space marine. Predator, vindicator, whirlwind each 2 space marines.
4th ed added the restriction: only squads of 6 and less could choose a razorback as DT.

- page 68 organisation:

again, rhinos and landspeeders and bikes distributed, razorbacks missing...
Reserve used to fill the main line, not to drive...

codex space marines, 5th edition. ( UM vs traitor cover ).

- page 16/17:

Every company, except the 10th, has rhinos to transport their squads.
Reserve used to fill the main line, not to drive...

Organizational scheme does not include transports, so razorbacks are missing again.
Predators, vindicators, whirlwinds etc still part of the Arsenal.

- page 77 , razorback:

Explains a bit more about the razorback, uses the old bit of it being 4000 years in service now and thus considered "new".. The original kit, got a mark, now called "stronos" variant and available again.

5th ed removed the restriction of : only squads of 6 and less could choose a razorback as DT.


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So we have the option to buy a DT that is too small to carry the whole squad. Still just one tracked vehicle to choose as DT. From a fluff perspective, this means GW considered the game mechanics firstly, changed them and may not care if your Space Marines have to walk because you bought an "undersized" transport for them.
If this was pure fluff, commanders would provide the rides when neccessary and wouldn't need to restrict a squad to "their" transport to start in.
The idea of the OP, to have enough transport capacity in place to ferry everyone, may be true for armored spearheads. Yes, the first company could ride in squads of 5 termies per vehicle in a massive column of Land Raiders into battle if the chapter got enough of those. They may also field lots of razorbacks with squads of 5 marines inside.
Its not recommended by codex astartes to limit a squad of 10 to one vehicle as we can see in old codices where the company has more capacity available than needed. The choice is the officers, the Captain of a company for example, how to split his forces, who to ride or walk, which method to use to get to their objectives.

But you, as a player, are bound by the rules made to balance armies of little plastic soldiers.
Who wants anyone to have an option to take a DedicatedTransport per 5 models?



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5060835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5060835.page GMT Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
1. It wasn't designed to carry a whole squad, but it fits a commander and his guard quite well.
2. It's listed in the fluff for a Razorback that many chapters disdain the use of them, as new technology is frowned upon in the Space Marines.
3. I believe many chapters keep a stash of Razorback in their armouries just for safekeeping and situations where they would be needed.
4. The lack of a self-repairing mechanism would make it a little less useful on the battlefield. Sometimes reliability can trump firepower.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5060840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5060840.page GMT Re:Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
1hadhq wrote:So tied to this claim, of a working 1k deal? Something that was disproven again and again?
It wasn't disproven. We had a large thread about that.
Yes, I'm tied to it, because I think it works out. Note that I never said that all vehicles are coming only from the Reserve Companies - I said that they get pulled from there if a Battle Company wants to employ all or almost all of its Marines as infantry rather than letting some of them act as drivers for the others. This is also why the latest C:SM notes that a Space Marine task force usually means 1 Battle Company reinforced by elements of the Reserve. As per the Codex Astartes, even the entire 7th Company can be deployed as Land Speeders if the situation warrants it. It's why the Battle Companies are called Battle Companies. These are the guys that get to go in "as one". The Reserve augments them on an as-needed basis.

But this really is a debate for another thread - so why not resurrect the one we had going about this? Not that I think we'd actually get to an agreement, mind you. Much of this hinges on how we interpret the material, and both opinions are thus equally valid. I'm simply preferring this explanation to just calling GW's fluff non-sensical.

[edit] sorted out some embarassing grammatical nonsense ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5063118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5063118.page GMT Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
madtankbloke wrote:How does the second combat squad redeploy in a timely fashion between battles if they have to walk?


There is no second half. A razorback, or two razorbacks, or any number of razorbacks do not carry many troops and are not really tanks. Either a bunch of predators need some guys who can get out and clear a building every once and a while but are mostly doing tanky stuff, or a bunch of mechanized infantry need a small amount of fire support but are mainly looking for bodies and so mostly use rhinos. Razorbacks are marginal parts of the army; there will be mostly tanks or rhinos, and only a few in-between razorbacks, like two per dozen treads per company. It has nothing to do with whether the squad needs to get around, and everything to do with what the army needs from the squad.

There will be one or two razorbacks per company, and one or two under-strength squads to go in them. If a company has seventy-something marines left after casualties, it will probably consolidate into seven full squads instead of ten weak squads, and there will also be odd squads in bikes or speeders, so there are opportunities to have demi-squads in razorbacks.



1hadhq wrote:

This was a strident post and in the end I think it was just obnoxious. The only thing I can say is that your rules quotes are weird, since the actual crew of vehicles have been described explicitly in the background, and even if army list entries were substantially relevant it is very likely you would interpret them wrong. There are no real cases to be made one way or the other.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5064040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5064040.page GMT Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
A battle sisters squad can take an Immolator dedicated transport, despite having a minimum of 10 sisters in the squad and the Immolator can carry only 6 people in it.

So, technically, you can't fit ANY setup of the squad in it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5066575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5066575.page GMT Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
 BoomWolf wrote:
Want a more silly transport situation?

A battle sisters squad can take an Immolator dedicated transport, despite having a minimum of 10 sisters in the squad and the Immolator can carry only 6 people in it.

So, technically, you can't fit ANY setup of the squad in it.


Yeah I was looking at that when the white dwarf came out. Isn't that awesome, they nerfed the Immolator AND made it hard to give to units whom really need it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5066590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5066590.page GMT Why are Space marines limited to 1 Razorback per squad?
Dominions still put them to good use though...scouting with these sweet twin-linked heavy guns is rather painful to whatever it is they target on turn 1]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5066623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/493422/5066623.page GMT