<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Should CSM be better?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Should CSM be better? CSM should be 'better' than newer chapters.....they were created with fresher geneseed - without millenia of dilution, they have had millenia to hone their fighting skills....were personally trained by their Primarchs etc.

surely even a basic CSM should be at least on par with a veteran SM?

What do you think?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192423.page GMT Should CSM be better?
That explains a lot for me for why they ain't as tough as they at times are stated to be.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192427.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192427.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better? HH have all by now turned into the Leaders, the chosen and those who have became demonic by their time in the warp like the warp talons and mutilators and stuff. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192496.page GMT Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192512.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better? CSM would have been original marines and therefore stronger, harder, meaner, more 'pure' than 'current' SM.

Also - how long do mutations take to develop? - I know time passes differently in the Warp, explaining why original CSM are fighting in M40, do the mutations take a long time to grow in SM genetically enhanced flesh? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192529.page GMT Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192545.page GMT Should CSM be better?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192624.page GMT Should CSM be better?
doc21 wrote:
I have been thinking that original Legion CSM should be 'better' than newer chapters.....they were created with fresher geneseed - without millenia of dilution, they have had millenia to hone their fighting skills....were personally trained by their Primarchs etc.

surely even a basic CSM should be at least on par with a veteran SM?

What do you think?


A Khornate Berzerker is a more capable physical combatant than a normal Marine.

A Death Guard Plague Marine is far more durable and relentless than a normal Marine.

An Emperor's Children Marine is quicker, and wields lulzy electric guitars that pop heads and gak.

A Thousand Sons Marine is either going to be an implacable automaton with psyker bullets or a powerful sorcerer, as the rule.

In those four cases, they are better. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192629.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better?
Actual Heresy era Legionnaire's should be utterly terrifying, these are after all the very marines that took the walls of the Emperor's palace, forged in a time of legend alongside figures of myth, building the Imperium with their blood and sacrifice and then tore it asunder, they should make Sternguard and Vanguard veterans look like wet babies by comparison, but at the same time probably aren't going to form the bulk of any force either.

But GW seems to be content with just giving them spiky bits.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192637.page GMT Should CSM be better?
 Beaviz81 wrote:
They got dispersed through time and space. So for many of them they just have recently fought in the Horus Heresy.

That explains a lot for me for why they ain't as tough as they at times are stated to be.


Thats just the Fallen. The majority of the Traitor Legions simply retreated into the Eye of Terror. time does pass differently in there yes I grant you.

And do we have any evidence that suggests the original legion marines were any stronger than the current ones?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192651.page GMT Should CSM be better?
And then there are the home grown Chaos Marines, like Honsou's little pet project.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192694.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192715.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192715.page GMT Should CSM be better?
HerbaciousT wrote:

And do we have any evidence that suggests the original legion marines were any stronger than the current ones?
In general they appear to have accomplished much greater feats than the SM's have since then (the original Legions forged the Imperium in just a couple hundred years and tore it asunder in just a few years, the remaining Space Marines have basically just been playing fire-brigade since then), they all had *complete* gene seed templates, far more advanced tech in far greater availability, etc.

Though that said, the big thing is that CSM fluff is fairly blunt about the fact that many original CSM's are still around, and having built the Imperium, torn in down, endured and thrived while cloaked in nightmare and insanity, and continuing to constitute the largest threats the Imperium after all that largely speaks for itself. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192717.page GMT Should CSM be better?
1. Not all Chaos Marines are veterans of the Heresy. In fact, it's a fair bet that 10,000 years of attrition has reduced the actual Heresy veterans numbers by a significant factor. The Chaos Marines can produce new Marines too, so they are replacing their casualties.

2. This is a game measured in divisions of 6. There is far less wiggle room for stats. A BS of 5 is significant compared to a BS of 4, and would affect point values significantly, as well as represent a huge gulf in ability. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5192858.page GMT Should CSM be better?
But the real thing why 41'st millennium SM are better than 31'st millennium are as follows:

-technology: SM use modern and better versions of bolter than the traitorous forces, and majority is wearing mark VII armor while most traitors wear more earlier versions.

and finally, the most important part:

-training: traitor marines worked in huge numbers, legions to be precise. So they didn't get as much training as 41'st millennium SM does because they were working as a horde. SM are limited to 1000 Astartes per Chapter, so each and ever one of them must be hard-trained marine. And he is trained much harder and more longer than usual SM from 31'st millennium.

41'st millennium SM are better than their evil counterparts, but then again their evil counterparts have Chaos Gods blessings so that evens them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:
Also wouldn't chaos take it's toll on them? Make them weaker over time?


Death Guard disagree with this statement.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193128.page GMT Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193169.page GMT Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193647.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better? DA codex I am a bit perplexed at the bland feel of the new CSM dex. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5193925.page GMT Should CSM be better?
 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Half of the mare mindless lunatics that can be consider only as berserkers.

But the real thing why 41'st millennium SM are better than 31'st millennium are as follows:

-technology: SM use modern and better versions of bolter than the traitorous forces, and majority is wearing mark VII armor while most traitors wear more earlier versions.
Bolter versions are largely irrelevant and are mostly cosmetic, nothing has ever said the Godwyn-Diaz is in any way markedly superior to the Umbra or Phobos patterns, and largely most of the CSM weapons are Godwyn-Diaz anyway from the CSM kits. Likewise armor, most of it really isn't something that's going to make a noticeable battlefield different. In some cases older armor is superior to many current suits, e.g. Mk IV vs Mk VI (don't remember about VII).

Also, the old Legions had far more advanced equipment than the current Chapters do. Jetbikes, Volkite weapons, Fellblades, Contemptor Dreads, Storm Eagles, Predators able to mount exotic weaponry like Magma-melta cannons and Heavy Conversion beamers, Graviton guns, Spartan Assault Tanks, etc all in large numbers as opposed to being nonexistent or unique relics amongst the current loyalist Space Marines.

About the only thing 41st millenium marines have that Heresy era marines didn't was Assault cannons in large numbers.


-training: traitor marines worked in huge numbers, legions to be precise. So they didn't get as much training as 41'st millennium SM does because they were working as a horde.
They were never a "horde", nor did they lack for training, they were simply employed as armies unto themselves instead of small strike forces.


SM are limited to 1000 Astartes per Chapter, so each and ever one of them must be hard-trained marine. And he is trained much harder and more longer than usual SM from 31'st millennium.
Where is this from? I can't find a reference anywhere for it.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5194121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5194121.page GMT Should CSM be better? De'az is actually the bolter of the Adeptus Sororitas, being a bolter rescaled for use by the ordinary human. You're thinking of the plain old Godwyn)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5194252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5194252.page GMT Should CSM be better? WS/BS/S/T/I 4.25 and round down for ease of play.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5195645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5195645.page GMT Should CSM be better? CSMs have lower recruiting standards than the Imperium does, somewhat making up for this in beneficial (sometimes...) mutations.

So while the most experienced CSMs are going to be monsters, most of them aren't going to be any better than the average loyalist, in my view.
 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
(The Godwyn-De'az is actually the bolter of the Adeptus Sororitas, being a bolter rescaled for use by the ordinary human. You're thinking of the plain old Godwyn)
And even the Godwyn-De'az is not suited for humans outside of power armor, according to some of the lore. It depends on which source you use.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196184.page GMT Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196236.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better?
Vaktathi wrote:Actual Heresy era Legionnaire's should be utterly terrifying, these are after all the very marines that took the walls of the Emperor's palace, forged in a time of legend alongside figures of myth [...]
I think that could explain why they're not that good for real.
Turning the argument around, one could also say that these are the very Marines who failed to defend the Emperor's palace. Not to mention that a lot more fought in the Battle for Terra than just Marines and Traitor Marines.

All in all, I think a case could be made for CSM either being stronger or weaker:

Weaker:
- they use older tech (ill-maintained/outdated)
- they bodies are corrupted, their equipment warped
- their new recruits lack proper indoctrination and their creation process blows even harder than that of the normal Marines

Stronger:
- they use older tech (superior)
- they bodies are corrupted, their equipment warped
- their veterans have more experience

A lot of it comes down to personal interpretation. I suppose GW simply decided to keep the status quo in part because they couldn't decide for themselves, or maybe it means that the bonuses and penalties sort of even themselves out, or that the differences are just not big enough as to be reflected in the tabletop's rules.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196620.page GMT Should CSM be better? And if you practice your skill for 10,000 years you should be better at it than someone who has only practiced theirs for 200 years?
Maybe GW could have made a new troop type 'original legion marine' and given them stats just above SM veteran?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196886.page GMT Should CSM be better? There are those who were alive at the time of the heresy. They're super strong, clever, aged and mutated death dealing monsters who would have no issue fighting 5 imperial space marines single handed. I guess veteran marines like that should be bs and ws 5 and maybe even init 5.

Then there's the bulk of their forces: Either corrupted imperial space marines or well trained new recruits. These guys are essentially a power match to normal space marines, or a little weaker in skill but made up for in fury.

Then there's the new recruits. Chaos legions have vastly varying recruitment strategies, but many of them just raid prison planets and recruit all the inmates and the like. This results in warriors with the body of a space marine, but neither the skill or the strength of mind. I'd say you could represent these guys as ws3, bs3 and ld 7 as well as being much cheaper.

So in answer to your question, yes, some csm should be better. But 80% of the chaos marines fought in the galaxy on a regular basis as not ones from the heresy. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196926.page GMT Should CSM be better?
Just because a warrior fought in the heresy doesn't make him more skilled, stronger tougher, faster etc (chaos marks and Mutations aside) it does give them a hard bitten mindset and probably an arrogant streak, a been through the worst so an unshakable faith in their skills, The Sun 20 Jan 2013 buff of 'veterans of the long War' reflects this experience quite well.
They may well be more skilled with their weapons, but not dramatically so as to reflect an significany increase in stats, all space marines are ruthless, efficient soldiers after all.

The technological advancements can be taken 2 ways, they may have earlier marks of armour but a higher number of well manufactured weapons and relics left over from the Crusade.

The question you should ask is are the elite space marines too poweful? Are they that drasticly superior to other warriors, are their equipment bonuses reflective of superior equipment and its comparitive with say the sorcerous enhancements of inferno bolts. Vanguard v Possessed? Etc

Personally I believe the forces of Chaos are relatively well balanced and appropriate in terms of capabilitywith regards to stats.

Loyalists I feel tend to feel have been buffed a bit beyond their realistic capabilities. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5196962.page GMT Should CSM be better?
doc21 wrote:
I meant 'pure' in the sense of their geneseed would have been newer and fresher than 'current' marines - fresh from the primarch as it were.
And if you practice your skill for 10,000 years you should be better at it than someone who has only practiced theirs for 200 years?
Maybe GW could have made a new troop type 'original legion marine' and given them stats just above SM veteran?


The Legions of the crusade had to replace losses and the process to create a Space Marine was sped up. So a imperial space marine from the start of the crusade may be as you seem to think "better" as the creator and leader of the project, the Emperor , was around. But reinforcement was handed over to the Legiones when they claimed homeworlds and any flaw they may run into from their new source would influence the balance of the bio-engineered being that a space marine is. But even then, the issues of the Emperors children and the thousand sons gene-seed wasn't easy to deal with.

The casualty rate of the heresy seems underestimated often. A lot of the traitors weren't the 'originals' which the Emperor had started their Legions.

Secondly, there is no such thing as 10k years of experience except a few exceptions.
Space marines were considered immortal in an era where they had just served for 200 years. Any example of millenia of service you can find in M41 has either lurked in the warp ( where time flows differently ) or survived in stasis or something close to this ( dreads ).

Thirdly, Space marine Legions are no more, the traitors splintered into warbands and the loyalists had the codex "willingly" applied to them.
( yep new DA circumvent that idea a bit..) .
A traitor marine is not rising through military ranks over millenia of service. Its just like orks now, the meanest and strongest of the group leads and thus you may find those remaining from the heresy already at the position with a better statline.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5197068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5197068.page GMT Should CSM be better?
doc21 wrote:
I meant 'pure' in the sense of their geneseed would have been newer and fresher than 'current' marines - fresh from the primarch as it were.
And if you practice your skill for 10,000 years you should be better at it than someone who has only practiced theirs for 200 years?
Maybe GW could have made a new troop type 'original legion marine' and given them stats just above SM veteran?


Bear in mind, with regard to the geneseed, a lot of the heresy era marines were created using accelerated gene harvesting, and accelerated training regimes that corrupted their geneseed physically, and arguably had an effect on them mentally. it is no mistake that the SPace Marines who remained loyal banned such practices straight after the heresy. the fact that it has been passed down through fewer generations means nothing, especially when you consider the techniques used to apply them to aspirants were flawed, and back that up with exposure to the warp.

of you practice your skill for 10,000 years, then sure, you'll be better than someone who has only practiced for 200 years. but time flows differently in the warp. to those alive then, it is conceivable than no more than a span of decades have passed for some. as to the others, they are now daemon princes, chaos spawn or the dead of the countless internecine wars between the former legions as they fought each other in the eye. a huge amount of the current crop of chaos space marines are not from that era. they're renegades and malcontents.

GW have those new troops that were original space marines with stats above SM vets. they're called Chaos Lords. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5197150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5197150.page GMT Should CSM be better?
Deadnight wrote:
GW have those new troops that were original space marines with stats above SM vets. they're called Chaos Lords.
Or the Chosen.

Edit: they aren’t superior to SM vets when it comes to stats, but they do benefit from other things.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5197561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5197561.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better? CSM ought to be better than SM. Having travelled (and survived) the Eye of Terror so long, having mean daemonic spirits on their side and what not, they should have a higher veteran status. You all know how the Eye of Terror is... Oh, that's right, you don't know how it is, CUZ YOU WEREN'T THERE, MAN!

Also I figure CSM have more hatred fuel in them (this is covered by the Veterans of the Long War rule, though), making them more vicious.

An important question is also which is better; to be completely restricted by the sacred Codex, or completely unrestricted by unholy Chaos? In terms of tactics and morale and such, I mean.

A CSM is an SM with evil magic add-ons, so they should be "better" I think. Also, pointy spikes and sharp horns on your armour would make you more lethal in CC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198788.page GMT Should CSM be better?
More than likely, CSM mutations weaken them except for the most influential members.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198790.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better? CSM. Wish they'd kept it as it was.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198823.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better?
ChaoticBob wrote:Also I figure CSM have more hatred fuel in them (this is covered by the Veterans of the Long War rule, though), making them more vicious.
On the flipside, giving in to such base instincts and emotions prevents tactical acumen. A mind clouded by rage will likely not think as clear as one who focused on the concept of duty, not to mention how it could affect combat behaviour. Going in guns blazing, only to miss most your shots or have your magazine click empty when it shouldn't just because you were unable to maintain firing discipline. Your melee strikes being a flurry of attacks with a strength fueled by unholy fury, yet simultaneously neglecting to keep up your defense. The list goes on ...

... nearly everything that makes CSM different from Loyalists can be argued to be a strength or a weakness, all depending from which angle you look at it. That's the tricky thing about this question.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198847.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198847.page GMT Should CSM be better?
nomotog wrote:
Also wouldn't chaos take it's toll on them? Make them weaker over time?


 Melissia wrote:
Not all mutations are beneficial. In fact, most aren't.

More than likely, CSM mutations weaken them except for the most influential members.


This is what followers/fanbois of the Imperium actually believe. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198993.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5198993.page GMT Should CSM be better? CSM that participated in the HH would be a bit more favored than most.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5199934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5199934.page GMT Re:Should CSM be better? SM isn't. So even giving some leeway for timeline wonkiness from the Eye of Terror, warp travel, etc... any CSM from the heresy era would likely be dead unless he got some kind of benefit; Chosen, gifted (possessed), DP status... etc. Remember, we do have brief examples in fluff that mention SMs that take on support roles when they get too old, although a SM who survived that long would be rare to the extreme. I believe Dante is considered an exceptional example of longevity for a SM at about 1000, and that's with the BA having longer life spans than is normal.

So, we have some select variables that would allow a CSM to survive for that long, but each have their own buffs and downsides. Chosen are obviously better than your stock SM, possessed... nuff said. Demon prince isn't even a physical creature any longer and start going toe-to-toe with Dreads and other MCs, and standard SMs rarely have a chance in combat when they encounter one. So this leaves warp-time shifts and changes... If they haven't gone completely nuts, then what's likely is that they haven't experienced 10k years of passage. For them, it could be only a century, or even a few days since they last went to war in Horus's name.

But frankly, the biggest, most damning thing that keeps the CSMs from dominating the SMs are the fact that the Legions, even on the CSM side, no longer exist as would be recognizable. They've broken up, fractured, fragmented, and become roving warbands. No-one save Abbadon seems to be able to get them to organize in any great number, and they're just as likely to go to war with one another then they are with anything else. CSM simply do not have the organization to properly mount any kind of real offensive (again, outside Abby... even Huron seems content to play pirate and nothing more) to truly challenge the current IoM. Sure, they may take a planet here or there... but we've all seen just how much the Imperium values individual planets in the grand scheme of things.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5200264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5200264.page GMT Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5200972.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5200972.page GMT Should CSM be better?
Spoiler:
got anathemed by Erebus
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5204374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5204374.page GMT Should CSM be better? CSM are better than their loyalist counterparts (not that there's many of those left), but you have to remember that they've spent up to ten thousand years currying the favour of their gods. It would take a spectacularly unambitious marine to remain in the rank and file indefinitely. More likely, most of the original legions have taken over warbands of renegades as Chaos Lords or Daemon Princes, or they were killed in the various civil wars among the legions.

Of course, one problem with this theory is that it means that the new renegades are apparently abandoning their superior equipment for no good reason upon joining Chaos, but the ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5204523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5204523.page GMT Should CSM be better?
 1hadhq wrote:
Secondly, there is no such thing as 10k years of experience except a few exceptions.


There was a bit of fluff back in 2nd edition, from the Chaos Codex I would assume but it might have been somewhere else - a chaos marine conducting a mental exercise to preserve a few chosen memories, since there was no way he could possibly remember even an entire millenias experiences of war, anymore than anyone posting on this thread can remember every meal they have ever eaten.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5204911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5204911.page GMT Should CSM be better? CSM. And it was about memories from his first 50 years or so (including his past before becoming a Marine) which started to fade away.

In the end, 1hadhq has a good point. Space Marines on average "only" have a lifespan 2-3 times as long as a normal man, which means that (barring cases where a Chaos God making them immortal) they simply did not live that long (from their subjective experience of time), and hence also were not able to amass that much experience.

Time is fluid in the Warp and there is no fixed conversion rate - the only thing we know for sure is that nobody can have experienced "10k years of experience", because this would only be true if the time distortion would not exist at all. What may be a thousand years in realspace could be just ten in the Warp. Or a hundred years, or five months. All depending on where exactly you are within the Warp ... although even the idea of locations in this strange dimension may seem weird.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205008.page GMT Should CSM be better? CSM story about managing one's memories over thousands of years of war. I'll have to find and crack open my 2E book when I get home. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205068.page GMT Should CSM be better?
Or is it said anywhere that CSMs live longer because of mutation/corruption? That would be in line with the recent fluff about lifespans even without dismissing the time distortion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205107.page GMT Should CSM be better? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205112.page GMT Should CSM be better?

No worries, we can get back to this later on - thanks for looking it up!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205127.page GMT Should CSM be better?
 Lynata wrote:
I vaguely recall reading something like that - but it was a loyal Space Marine, not a CSM. And it was about memories from his first 50 years or so (including his past before becoming a Marine) which started to fade away.

In the end, 1hadhq has a good point. Space Marines on average "only" have a lifespan 2-3 times as long as a normal man, which means that (barring cases where a Chaos God making them immortal) they simply did not live that long (from their subjective experience of time), and hence also were not able to amass that much experience.

Time is fluid in the Warp and there is no fixed conversion rate - the only thing we know for sure is that nobody can have experienced "10k years of experience", because this would only be true if the time distortion would not exist at all. What may be a thousand years in realspace could be just ten in the Warp. Or a hundred years, or five months. All depending on where exactly you are within the Warp ... although even the idea of locations in this strange dimension may seem weird.


Or it could have been a billion years.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205175.page GMT Should CSM be better? backwards - anyone remember the story about that Waaagh where the Boss, exiting Warpspace, encountered himself just as he was about to enter?

Generally it seems to run faster (or at least this is what the material suggests), although it being the Warp there are no absolutes indeed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205221.page GMT Should CSM be better? VotLW let you give vet skills to units. Have it actually represent a marine that has been fighting since the heresy. Any marine who was around 10,000 years ago would have had, in addition to whatever experience they had gained fighting in the crusade, all the fighting skills gained during seven years of fighting against the other legions in the fiercest fighting the Imperium has ever seen. The Night Lords in the ADB novels felt as though it was 70 years subjective time since the heresy. Or was that 70 years since the Night Haunter had died. Whatever.

I don't think that CSM should have a better stat line than regular marines, but it would be nice if VotLW gave them access to vet skills they could purchase. Something to represent some of the tricks of the trade that they'd picked up over the decades.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205507.page GMT Should CSM be better?
1) I believe we cannot take into account the age of a M41 space marine in comparison to a M31 space marine, gene seed has degenerated over the milennia due to constant replication and that is a reason why many modern day space marines only average 2-300years. In Soul Hunter Talos has only experienced a relatively short time since the Heresy due to warp travel in any case.

2) CSMs are creatures of hate and bitterness, often they don't even trust their battle brothers, any increase in skill and experience could be explained away by the added need to watch their own backs more than a loyalist.

3) Although CSM mutations may be mostly advantages (and I use the word advantageous loosely) the humans who serve them are less fortunate. In the days of the great crusade each space marine would have had several personal attendants to deal with armour and weapons, not to mention the resources of the legio armourers and artificers. I believe few of these skilled people remain due to mutation, madness or the whims of their CSM masters. This would lead to badly maintained wargear which may well strip away any edge they posess.

Most of my opinions can be backed up by evidence from the Night Lords trilogy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/501585/5205703.page GMT