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I have been thinking that original Legion CSM should be 'better' than newer chapters.....they were created with fresher geneseed - without millenia of dilution, they have had millenia to hone their fighting skills....were personally trained by their Primarchs etc.

surely even a basic CSM should be at least on par with a veteran SM?

What do you think?

They got dispersed through time and space. So for many of them they just have recently fought in the Horus Heresy.

That explains a lot for me for why they ain't as tough as they at times are stated to be.

For me, I kind of look at the basic marines as newer recruits or freshly turned renegade, we know they go stealing gene seed to replace their damaged reserves anyway so surely they're creating new marines and then assume that all those who have survived the millennia since the HH have all by now turned into the Leaders, the chosen and those who have became demonic by their time in the warp like the warp talons and mutilators and stuff.

Also wouldn't chaos take it's toll on them? Make them weaker over time?

I would have thought that due to the size of the pre-Heresy legions, a huge number of even basic CSM would have been original marines and therefore stronger, harder, meaner, more 'pure' than 'current' SM.

Also - how long do mutations take to develop? - I know time passes differently in the Warp, explaining why original CSM are fighting in M40, do the mutations take a long time to grow in SM genetically enhanced flesh?

Well I bet my last dollar that they are by no means more pure.

Perhaps they are pure, pure in the context of having thrown off the shackles of the Imperium and the Corpse-Emperor which leads them to a purer life serving the Ruinous Powers (in their perspective).

doc21 wrote:
I have been thinking that original Legion CSM should be 'better' than newer chapters.....they were created with fresher geneseed - without millenia of dilution, they have had millenia to hone their fighting skills....were personally trained by their Primarchs etc.

surely even a basic CSM should be at least on par with a veteran SM?

What do you think?

A Khornate Berzerker is a more capable physical combatant than a normal Marine.

A Death Guard Plague Marine is far more durable and relentless than a normal Marine.

An Emperor's Children Marine is quicker, and wields lulzy electric guitars that pop heads and gak.

A Thousand Sons Marine is either going to be an implacable automaton with psyker bullets or a powerful sorcerer, as the rule.

In those four cases, they are better.

The Geneseed has little to do with it, at least not on any level that would be shown in game.

Actual Heresy era Legionnaire's should be utterly terrifying, these are after all the very marines that took the walls of the Emperor's palace, forged in a time of legend alongside figures of myth, building the Imperium with their blood and sacrifice and then tore it asunder, they should make Sternguard and Vanguard veterans look like wet babies by comparison, but at the same time probably aren't going to form the bulk of any force either.

But GW seems to be content with just giving them spiky bits.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They got dispersed through time and space. So for many of them they just have recently fought in the Horus Heresy.

That explains a lot for me for why they ain't as tough as they at times are stated to be.

Thats just the Fallen. The majority of the Traitor Legions simply retreated into the Eye of Terror. time does pass differently in there yes I grant you.

And do we have any evidence that suggests the original legion marines were any stronger than the current ones?

Much of the Chaos Legions are new recruits or Renegades that joined up after the Heresy. The Black Legion may have a huge number of veterans, but they also have a huge number of younger traitors as well.

And then there are the home grown Chaos Marines, like Honsou's little pet project.

No its just that living much longer than a regular marine in the most hostile environments possible you'd expect them to be more practised and skilled then the regulars, not accounting for the pre heresy tech they took with them and the warp gifts their gods give them. Thats why for me its easiest to assume most of the originals are dead and those left are still kicking by virtue of being more powerful than their brothers.

HerbaciousT wrote:

And do we have any evidence that suggests the original legion marines were any stronger than the current ones?

In general they appear to have accomplished much greater feats than the SM's have since then (the original Legions forged the Imperium in just a couple hundred years and tore it asunder in just a few years, the remaining Space Marines have basically just been playing fire-brigade since then), they all had *complete* gene seed templates, far more advanced tech in far greater availability, etc.

Though that said, the big thing is that CSM fluff is fairly blunt about the fact that many original CSM's are still around, and having built the Imperium, torn in down, endured and thrived while cloaked in nightmare and insanity, and continuing to constitute the largest threats the Imperium after all that largely speaks for itself.

Two things:

1. Not all Chaos Marines are veterans of the Heresy. In fact, it's a fair bet that 10,000 years of attrition has reduced the actual Heresy veterans numbers by a significant factor. The Chaos Marines can produce new Marines too, so they are replacing their casualties.

2. This is a game measured in divisions of 6. There is far less wiggle room for stats. A BS of 5 is significant compared to a BS of 4, and would affect point values significantly, as well as represent a huge gulf in ability.

Half of the mare mindless lunatics that can be consider only as berserkers.

But the real thing why 41'st millennium SM are better than 31'st millennium are as follows:

-technology: SM use modern and better versions of bolter than the traitorous forces, and majority is wearing mark VII armor while most traitors wear more earlier versions.

and finally, the most important part:

-training: traitor marines worked in huge numbers, legions to be precise. So they didn't get as much training as 41'st millennium SM does because they were working as a horde. SM are limited to 1000 Astartes per Chapter, so each and ever one of them must be hard-trained marine. And he is trained much harder and more longer than usual SM from 31'st millennium.

41'st millennium SM are better than their evil counterparts, but then again their evil counterparts have Chaos Gods blessings so that evens them out.


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nomotog wrote:
Also wouldn't chaos take it's toll on them? Make them weaker over time?

Death Guard disagree with this statement.

They also have to survive to the 41st millennium. Those that do are usually the warlords, chosen, and terminators - if they already have not ascended to demonhood.

The codex should be better than it current is, sure.

After reading the new DA codex I am a bit perplexed at the bland feel of the new CSM dex.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Half of the mare mindless lunatics that can be consider only as berserkers.

But the real thing why 41'st millennium SM are better than 31'st millennium are as follows:

-technology: SM use modern and better versions of bolter than the traitorous forces, and majority is wearing mark VII armor while most traitors wear more earlier versions.

Bolter versions are largely irrelevant and are mostly cosmetic, nothing has ever said the Godwyn-Diaz is in any way markedly superior to the Umbra or Phobos patterns, and largely most of the CSM weapons are Godwyn-Diaz anyway from the CSM kits. Likewise armor, most of it really isn't something that's going to make a noticeable battlefield different. In some cases older armor is superior to many current suits, e.g. Mk IV vs Mk VI (don't remember about VII).

Also, the old Legions had far more advanced equipment than the current Chapters do. Jetbikes, Volkite weapons, Fellblades, Contemptor Dreads, Storm Eagles, Predators able to mount exotic weaponry like Magma-melta cannons and Heavy Conversion beamers, Graviton guns, Spartan Assault Tanks, etc all in large numbers as opposed to being nonexistent or unique relics amongst the current loyalist Space Marines.

About the only thing 41st millenium marines have that Heresy era marines didn't was Assault cannons in large numbers.

-training: traitor marines worked in huge numbers, legions to be precise. So they didn't get as much training as 41'st millennium SM does because they were working as a horde.

They were never a "horde", nor did they lack for training, they were simply employed as armies unto themselves instead of small strike forces.

SM are limited to 1000 Astartes per Chapter, so each and ever one of them must be hard-trained marine. And he is trained much harder and more longer than usual SM from 31'st millennium.

Where is this from? I can't find a reference anywhere for it.

(The Godwyn-De'az is actually the bolter of the Adeptus Sororitas, being a bolter rescaled for use by the ordinary human. You're thinking of the plain old Godwyn)

Maybe they are, but the granularity of the rules isn't enough to display it? A Chaos Marine might be a little better/stronger/tougher than a loyalist Space Marine, but that doesn't mean he's as far above the loyalist in any respect as the loyalist is above a Guardsman, which rules out any stat increases. Just pretend Chaos Marines have WS/BS/S/T/I 4.25 and round down for ease of play.

No. CSMs have lower recruiting standards than the Imperium does, somewhat making up for this in beneficial (sometimes...) mutations.

So while the most experienced CSMs are going to be monsters, most of them aren't going to be any better than the average loyalist, in my view.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
(The Godwyn-De'az is actually the bolter of the Adeptus Sororitas, being a bolter rescaled for use by the ordinary human. You're thinking of the plain old Godwyn)

And even the Godwyn-De'az is not suited for humans outside of power armor, according to some of the lore. It depends on which source you use.

Read catvalente's blog Mel. Good stuff.

Vaktathi wrote:Actual Heresy era Legionnaire's should be utterly terrifying, these are after all the very marines that took the walls of the Emperor's palace, forged in a time of legend alongside figures of myth [...]

I think that could explain why they're not that good for real.
Turning the argument around, one could also say that these are the very Marines who failed to defend the Emperor's palace. Not to mention that a lot more fought in the Battle for Terra than just Marines and Traitor Marines.

All in all, I think a case could be made for CSM either being stronger or weaker:

Weaker:
- they use older tech (ill-maintained/outdated)
- they bodies are corrupted, their equipment warped
- their new recruits lack proper indoctrination and their creation process blows even harder than that of the normal Marines

Stronger:
- they use older tech (superior)
- they bodies are corrupted, their equipment warped
- their veterans have more experience

A lot of it comes down to personal interpretation. I suppose GW simply decided to keep the status quo in part because they couldn't decide for themselves, or maybe it means that the bonuses and penalties sort of even themselves out, or that the differences are just not big enough as to be reflected in the tabletop's rules.

I meant 'pure' in the sense of their geneseed would have been newer and fresher than 'current' marines - fresh from the primarch as it were.
And if you practice your skill for 10,000 years you should be better at it than someone who has only practiced theirs for 200 years?
Maybe GW could have made a new troop type 'original legion marine' and given them stats just above SM veteran?

I'd say there are three classes of chaos space marine in terms of strength.
There are those who were alive at the time of the heresy. They're super strong, clever, aged and mutated death dealing monsters who would have no issue fighting 5 imperial space marines single handed. I guess veteran marines like that should be bs and ws 5 and maybe even init 5.

Then there's the bulk of their forces: Either corrupted imperial space marines or well trained new recruits. These guys are essentially a power match to normal space marines, or a little weaker in skill but made up for in fury.

Then there's the new recruits. Chaos legions have vastly varying recruitment strategies, but many of them just raid prison planets and recruit all the inmates and the like. This results in warriors with the body of a space marine, but neither the skill or the strength of mind. I'd say you could represent these guys as ws3, bs3 and ld 7 as well as being much cheaper.

So in answer to your question, yes, some csm should be better. But 80% of the chaos marines fought in the galaxy on a regular basis as not ones from the heresy.

Personally I think your barking up the wrong tree with Should chaos marines be more powerful.

Just because a warrior fought in the heresy doesn't make him more skilled, stronger tougher, faster etc (chaos marks and Mutations aside) it does give them a hard bitten mindset and probably an arrogant streak, a been through the worst so an unshakable faith in their skills, The Sun 20 Jan 2013 buff of 'veterans of the long War' reflects this experience quite well.
They may well be more skilled with their weapons, but not dramatically so as to reflect an significany increase in stats, all space marines are ruthless, efficient soldiers after all.

The technological advancements can be taken 2 ways, they may have earlier marks of armour but a higher number of well manufactured weapons and relics left over from the Crusade.

The question you should ask is are the elite space marines too poweful? Are they that drasticly superior to other warriors, are their equipment bonuses reflective of superior equipment and its comparitive with say the sorcerous enhancements of inferno bolts. Vanguard v Possessed? Etc

Personally I believe the forces of Chaos are relatively well balanced and appropriate in terms of capabilitywith regards to stats.

Loyalists I feel tend to feel have been buffed a bit beyond their realistic capabilities.

doc21 wrote:
I meant 'pure' in the sense of their geneseed would have been newer and fresher than 'current' marines - fresh from the primarch as it were.
And if you practice your skill for 10,000 years you should be better at it than someone who has only practiced theirs for 200 years?
Maybe GW could have made a new troop type 'original legion marine' and given them stats just above SM veteran?

The Legions of the crusade had to replace losses and the process to create a Space Marine was sped up. So a imperial space marine from the start of the crusade may be as you seem to think "better" as the creator and leader of the project, the Emperor , was around. But reinforcement was handed over to the Legiones when they claimed homeworlds and any flaw they may run into from their new source would influence the balance of the bio-engineered being that a space marine is. But even then, the issues of the Emperors children and the thousand sons gene-seed wasn't easy to deal with.

The casualty rate of the heresy seems underestimated often. A lot of the traitors weren't the 'originals' which the Emperor had started their Legions.

Secondly, there is no such thing as 10k years of experience except a few exceptions.
Space marines were considered immortal in an era where they had just served for 200 years. Any example of millenia of service you can find in M41 has either lurked in the warp ( where time flows differently ) or survived in stasis or something close to this ( dreads ).

Thirdly, Space marine Legions are no more, the traitors splintered into warbands and the loyalists had the codex "willingly" applied to them.
( yep new DA circumvent that idea a bit..) .
A traitor marine is not rising through military ranks over millenia of service. Its just like orks now, the meanest and strongest of the group leads and thus you may find those remaining from the heresy already at the position with a better statline.

doc21 wrote:
I meant 'pure' in the sense of their geneseed would have been newer and fresher than 'current' marines - fresh from the primarch as it were.
And if you practice your skill for 10,000 years you should be better at it than someone who has only practiced theirs for 200 years?
Maybe GW could have made a new troop type 'original legion marine' and given them stats just above SM veteran?

Bear in mind, with regard to the geneseed, a lot of the heresy era marines were created using accelerated gene harvesting, and accelerated training regimes that corrupted their geneseed physically, and arguably had an effect on them mentally. it is no mistake that the SPace Marines who remained loyal banned such practices straight after the heresy. the fact that it has been passed down through fewer generations means nothing, especially when you consider the techniques used to apply them to aspirants were flawed, and back that up with exposure to the warp.

of you practice your skill for 10,000 years, then sure, you'll be better than someone who has only practiced for 200 years. but time flows differently in the warp. to those alive then, it is conceivable than no more than a span of decades have passed for some. as to the others, they are now daemon princes, chaos spawn or the dead of the countless internecine wars between the former legions as they fought each other in the eye. a huge amount of the current crop of chaos space marines are not from that era. they're renegades and malcontents.

GW have those new troops that were original space marines with stats above SM vets. they're called Chaos Lords.

Deadnight wrote:
GW have those new troops that were original space marines with stats above SM vets. they're called Chaos Lords.

Or the Chosen.

Edit: they aren’t superior to SM vets when it comes to stats, but they do benefit from other things.