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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I've recently started going back through older editions of the game (4e-7e, mostly, RT/2e works at a very different scale from modern 40k and I never played 3e) looking to see what I liked, what I didn't like, and whether I could figure out some kind of composite of the best bits. I'd be interested to see what folks here think. If people are interested I might post some army books at some point.

Core rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tnOKl2FNazq9-9XPNShDoR-7GzF1Ex-0RAX9e748bq8/edit?usp=sharing
The project has evolved enough that I'm no longer advertising it as "fixed 7th". Much of it will remain familiar to people who played 4e-7e, however.

Space Marine Codex: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NJGM58G7B9ZO7x4xAiS4uZ4dHb9ZrPylgj0yp8lDnhE/edit?usp=sharing
Currently contains rules sufficient to simulate most 40k and 30k lists and Chapter Tactics rules for the First Founding Chapters only. I plan to do backwards-compatible stuff for Primaris Marines eventually but for now I've just got a rough proxy guide.

Daemons Codex:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zv5lj5GQZHDvjmi1y03oLIdWR-GvN-FqLoFz4ZfT0Ak/edit?usp=sharing
Largely built based on the 30k Ruinstorm list; I've tweaked a few mechanics and added more options, and you should be able to imitate the entire GW Daemons range plus more stuff with this. Will probably get more content as I think of it.

Guard and Militia Codex:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NJiQmigi5lW8dZi2iLP5mjepky3yqsEdThm4V1m53pc/edit?usp=sharing
Genericized content intended to simulate Imperial Guard, PDF, Genestealer Cults, Chaos Cults, and Frateris militia. Doctrine options are based on the 30k Militia list's Provenances of War (pick two off this list) rather than the more complicated systems in other versions of the book; you don't pick specific Regiment traits the way you would in 8e/9e, but plenty of regiments can be simulated here.

Craftworld Eldar Codex:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JAix7NViL9BYynUN7zpp1Rljgc6nsu0HBhivzZcPt0E/edit?usp=sharing
Mostly done; I need to add unique psychic powers, and I do still want to add custom Aspects.

Ork Codex:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lb-BO-VhH2v0IlCC_lXn4wUeyEV4jwMrffodwKcBHUQ/edit?usp=sharing
Basic draft of the Ork book; it doesn't have everything I want (I'd like to build a "looted vehicles" structure at some point, among other things), but it's done enough to post for review/testing. I'm probably least familiar with Orks out of all the armies in 40k, and I could use a real Ork player going through and taking a gander. I've tried to keep some of the wacky random-stat weapons, but I've also committed heresy by giving some shooting-focused units BS3.

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2020/11/18 23:47:12


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





It is an different take on oldhammer as it seems to be more a revised 7e rather than the usual 5e or earlier. I'm not sure what else you'd call it, "7.5 hammer?
Things like challenges, overwatch, precision shots, hull points, gargantuans and superheavies, and so on are still considered relatively 'modern' even though they've been in the game a long time now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Psychic: I've kept the basics of Warp Charge from 7e.
One of the main complaints about the old psychic system is that it was a game of who had the most dice. If you were on the losing side of the psyker count your opponent would block everything you had, and if you were an anti-psyker faction with no psykers then you were nothing.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've added a rule out of some historical games where units can't fire through other friendly units or narrow gaps between friendly units
Won't that turn screens and close combat into huge areas of LoS blocking?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Wound allocation is from the front like it was in 7e
A straightforward system, but quite unfriendly on assault armies. A round of shooting doesn't just kill models, it takes inches off your movement with every salvo.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Hit/wound/allocation/saves works the same way as in shooting, but wounds can only be allocated to models that would be in range to make attacks.
Keep an eye out for unit positioning abuse on this one

 AnomanderRake wrote:
and added an immunity to the Ld test from shooting casualties for already having Gone to Ground.
Cheap tarpit units are always going to go to ground. This just gives them free fearless allowing even the most pathetic band of grots to hold an objective to the very last man.


You've got a harder job that most trying to balance the game after the introduction of flyers, titans, and the like. Good luck though
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







A.T. wrote:
It is an different take on oldhammer as it seems to be more a revised 7e rather than the usual 5e or earlier. I'm not sure what else you'd call it, "7.5 hammer?
Things like challenges, overwatch, precision shots, hull points, gargantuans and superheavies, and so on are still considered relatively 'modern' even though they've been in the game a long time now.


I'd accept 7.5 as a description, sure.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Psychic: I've kept the basics of Warp Charge from 7e.
One of the main complaints about the old psychic system is that it was a game of who had the most dice. If you were on the losing side of the psyker count your opponent would block everything you had, and if you were an anti-psyker faction with no psykers then you were nothing.


Which I think can be addressed by working on the numbers for who gets how many dice, what the costs for casting are, and how the denial rules work. I'm hoping the WHFB-esque dice totals instead of the 7e success threshold will make it easier to fine tune.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've added a rule out of some historical games where units can't fire through other friendly units or narrow gaps between friendly units
Won't that turn screens and close combat into huge areas of LoS blocking?


To some degree, yes. It's important to note here that the restriction is for shooting through friendlies (since you're worried about hitting them), not for shooting through enemies (since you don't particularly care), so screening your gunline is going to hurt your guns' ability to shoot more than the other guy's ability to shoot you.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Wound allocation is from the front like it was in 7e
A straightforward system, but quite unfriendly on assault armies. A round of shooting doesn't just kill models, it takes inches off your movement with every salvo.


Indeed. I like it because it's cinematic and it makes shooty units feel like they can interact with assault units rather than just needing to watch the predictable march of the unstoppable wave of destruction rolling at constant speed towards your line unless you can wipe it; how unfriendly it ends up being in practice is going to depend on where the shooting damage output ends up.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Hit/wound/allocation/saves works the same way as in shooting, but wounds can only be allocated to models that would be in range to make attacks.
Keep an eye out for unit positioning abuse on this one


Will do. I'm hoping the mandatory pile-in rules and the challenge rules are going to make it difficult to use this to hide, but we shall see.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
and added an immunity to the Ld test from shooting casualties for already having Gone to Ground.
Cheap tarpit units are always going to go to ground. This just gives them free fearless allowing even the most pathetic band of grots to hold an objective to the very last man.


My intent here is for your cheap pathetic unit of grots to then be pinned down and easy to then clear off the objective with a charge, even from relatively trivial opposition. Would it be more interesting if there was some kind of melee downside to having gone to ground?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Updated: Space Marines and Daemons written and playable. More Codexes still in progress.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/02 09:36:32


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Updated: Guard and Militia added. Probably going to work up a Xenos book or two next; still undecided on what to do about Aspect Warriors, so expect either Orks, Tyranids, or Necrons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/05 23:08:51


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Reading through core rules and Daemons now.

Core Rules
First note: Do 999- Point games not roll a d6 for Warp Charges?
Second note: Haemorrhage is still bad.
Third note: Does Daemonology still have more Perils?
Fourth note: Include something in "Go To Ground" that it disallows charging. Just as a reminder.
Fifth note: Please tell me assault grenades are more common.
Sixth note: Not sure challenges needed to stay.
Seventh note: Why are vehicles without a WS hit on a 4+? Wouldn't it make more sense to treat them as WS1?
Eighth note: Deep Strike is now WAY MORE BRUTAL. Intentional?
Ninth note: Turn Haywire into Haywire (X/Y), where X is the Glance number and Y is the Pen number.
Tenth note: Does Rad-Phage stack with itself, if injured on multiple turns?
Eleventh note: Battlesmith feels too unreliable for what it does. Why a 5+?
Twelfth note: Impact Hits are AP-, right?
Thirteenth note: Deep Strike doesn't specify what it does with Dangerous terrain-assuming just roll a test?

Daemons
First note: Those costs are per model or per unit?
Second note: Initiative feels a bit low on the big boys. Maybe add a way to upgrade that? Just in general, would be nice to be able to futz with stats a little more.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







1. Corrected.
2. Changed from "Toughness test" to S5/AP2, I was going to do S6/AP2 to replicate Perils but allowing it to Overkill T3 characters seemed like a bad idea.
3. I have yet to go through and restrict people to specific disciplines/make unique disciplines, I'm planning to restrict Daemonology more rather than letting everyone use it and making them Perils more. In a future draft Malefic Daemonology will probably be Chaos-specific and Sanctic will probably be restricted to Craftworld Eldar and the Ordo Malleus.
4. Addressed, good catch.
5. "Assault grenades" have been replaced with the "suppression" weapon property, which lets one unit suppress enemies for other units and lets me give random things "assault grenades" more easily. More people have suppression than had assault grenades, but it's sometimes harder to land due to range restrictions.
7. "Set to WS1" is effectively "always hits on 3+" in 7th, I backed off to "always hits on 4+" instead as a slight nerf to squads where everyone has AT grenades.
8. Deep Strike is 4e Deep Strike. It is more punishing, the intent is to force people to consider placement/use their teleport homers (more things will have teleport homers) rather than have Deep Strike units as invincible risk-free alpha-strike squads of doom as in later 40k.
9. Good idea, will consider.
10. At the moment yes, but it's due for a rework, especially given that I don't have it on any weapons right now.
11. Proper techs (tech-priests, big meks, etc.) have bonuses to Battlesmith; the 5+ base value is there because a lot of units have the ability to buy a cheap basic tech to give your backfield units more utility. I should probably go back and subscript it.
12: Unless otherwise noted, yes.
13: Good catch, have updated.

Daemons:
1. Per model, have clarified.
2. I'll consider putting in stat-tweaking Emanations or pumping the I on some models; I've tried to compress Initiative generally to make it more relevant rather than the "Codex A goes before Codex B" of later 40k (ex. the Eldar low end is back down to I4), but I may have gone too far here.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/11/06 00:45:18


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

7) What about people who don't have grenades? Maybe make it so a WS vehicle is hit on WS, a mobile vehicle is hit on a 4+, and an immobilized vehicle is hit on a 2+?

11) Yeah, just make it Battlesmith (X+).

Overall, good stuff.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block




It would be difficult change the psychic phase in this way: to cast it the player has to roll one or two D6, add to the score the mastery level of the psyker (M.L.P.) and obtain a result equal or greater than the power's cast value (P.C.V.)?
M.L.P. + 1 or 2 D6 score ≥ P.C.V.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/08 21:44:08


If the Imperial Truth were right, the Gods of Chaos shouldn't exist, but this means that they shouldn't had been able to corrupt Horus, so his heresy shouldn't had happened. But because the Horus Heresy happened, the Gods exist, then the Emperor of Mankind is truly our God, so he is infallible and this prove that the Imperial Truth is true. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







The_Grim_Angel wrote:
It would be difficult change the psychic phase in this way: to cast it the player has to roll one or two D6, add to the score the mastery level of the psyker (M.L.P.) and obtain a result equal or greater than the power's cast value (P.C.V.)?
M.L.P. + 1 or 2 D6 score ≥ P.C.V.


At the moment that's what it is, except you can use as many dice as you like if you're all right increasing your risk of Perils.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block




It seemed to me a little convolute with the need to generate the warp charge, so I was thinking to a way to simplify the psychic fase.
I will think about it and maybe I have some good ideas; or maybe not.
Anyway in your game what is the maximum mastery level of a psyker? Four?

If the Imperial Truth were right, the Gods of Chaos shouldn't exist, but this means that they shouldn't had been able to corrupt Horus, so his heresy shouldn't had happened. But because the Horus Heresy happened, the Gods exist, then the Emperor of Mankind is truly our God, so he is infallible and this prove that the Imperial Truth is true. 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Hammerer





washington state USA

The warp charge issue/dice pool. it existed in WHFB and it worked there because both armies usually only had at most 2 wizards so the dice pool was pretty well balanced. i still do not care for the mechanic in 40K when they imported it in. to show how stupid it was we did a game on purpose to see how many dice we could get facing eldar off against tyranids the eldar had something like 30 dice and the nids around 50 per turn.

There were many great ideas in 7th, but the core rule set isn't as good as 5th in my book including the psyker rules. normally having 1 or 2 fixed powers chosen at the start of the game per psyker that past on LD checks was a far better system.

I am also not into creating entire new rules for the game, which is why our group just uses already existing rules that worked the best and putting them all in the same edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/09 11:35:55


 
   
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Been Around the Block




In fact my idea about how the psychic phase should work is to abolish the warp charge sub-phase and let the players declare what psyker will cast a power, what power he will cast, what is the target of the power and then add to the mastery level of the psyker the score of a 2D6 and if the value obtained is equal or greater than the power cast value, the power is casted. Otherwise the player has to roll a D6 and if he obtain an 1, the psyker is subject to the Perils of Warp. But in this way there would be some powers almost or totally unusable, due to their very hight power cast level (15 or above), because a psyker with a mastery level of 3 would need a score of 12 to cast a power with a power cast level of 15. This is the part I'm working on, but maybe I'm seeing an issue that doesn't exist, so let me know if you are interested in my system.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/11/09 14:40:25


If the Imperial Truth were right, the Gods of Chaos shouldn't exist, but this means that they shouldn't had been able to corrupt Horus, so his heresy shouldn't had happened. But because the Horus Heresy happened, the Gods exist, then the Emperor of Mankind is truly our God, so he is infallible and this prove that the Imperial Truth is true. 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Hammerer





washington state USA

We are pretty happy using 5th edition with the 15 better version of the rules imports we put in from 3rd, 4th , 6th and 7th. it allows all codexes from every edition to be used.

We really aren't interested in doing a full re-write of in house created rules, this way we can still just refer to the core rulebooks and the codexes and it all works.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






^^^^^^^^^

Basically yes. The psychic phase mini-game is too much detail given to psyker units IMHO.

What we did in ProHammer (also based on 5th), is that all psykers have a mastery level, either whatever is listed (for 6th + 7th ed codexes) or equal to the number of psychic powers the psyker knows (in the case of 3rd-5th ed codexes).

Level 1 psykers can invoke 1 power per player turn, level 2+ psykers can invoke up to 2 powers per player turn.

For 6th + 7th ed psykers, we said that if the unit has a codex specific discipline they have to use powers from that. Moroever, psykers can freely choose which powers to use from their available list before the game (no rolling for random powers). Psykers are strong, but even the strongest are still limited to no more than 2 powers per turn.

Added in a simple deny the witch system, but it only works if a power targets a psyker or is within 6" of an opposing psyker (no automatic deny the witch ability for any old unit). Roll D6 + mastery level. Opposing psyker must roll HIGHER to deny the witch. Psychic hoods and like can extend the denial range, etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/09 15:33:00


Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer 40k: Enhanced 5th Edition... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







To my mind the goal of the Warp Charge system is to split being an effective psyker off from having high Ld; you might have someone like a cultist psyker who's powerful but not very stable, or a Space Marine who's stable but not massively powerful, or a Farseer who manages to be both. The other advantage is to put more gameplay into decisions about what powers go off.

Brainstorming an alternative here: The obvious "simplified" way of doing the resource allocation is to lift the resource/costs from Warmachine; instead of generating/allocating Warp Charge and rolling dice a psyker would be allowed to use some number of powers with the fixed Ld-based test, but some powers would count as only one power and others might count as two or three. It doesn't let you push Warp Charge around from psyker to psyker the way the 6e/7e/WHFB system does, but it gives me another lever to pull when balancing psychic powers and may let me put more trade-offs/gameplay decisions into psychic powers without making a long, complicated psychic phase.

@Grim_Angel: I'm resistant to the idea of making probability the barrier to use big powers; if you need a 12 on 2d6 to cast something you'll get it off on average once every six games, so nobody would ever bother taking it. WHFB/6th/7th got away with things with really high cast values by letting you dump a lot of dice into casting them, thereby letting you take an elevated risk of your caster exploding to get off your giant super power, but without that it's just wasted design space.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block




 AnomanderRake wrote:
[…]
@Grim_Angel: I'm resistant to the idea of making probability the barrier to use big powers; if you need a 12 on 2d6 to cast something you'll get it off on average once every six games, so nobody would ever bother taking it. WHFB/6th/7th got away with things with really high cast values by letting you dump a lot of dice into casting them, thereby letting you take an elevated risk of your caster exploding to get off your giant super power, but without that it's just wasted design space.

I totally agree with you and in fact I wrote: «…But in this way there would be some powers almost or totally unusable, due to their very hight power cast level…». My goal was create a system easier to understand and reduce the dices to roll, in order to make faster the game; but for now my "cure is worst than the illness".

If the Imperial Truth were right, the Gods of Chaos shouldn't exist, but this means that they shouldn't had been able to corrupt Horus, so his heresy shouldn't had happened. But because the Horus Heresy happened, the Gods exist, then the Emperor of Mankind is truly our God, so he is infallible and this prove that the Imperial Truth is true. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 AnomanderRake wrote:
To my mind the goal of the Warp Charge system is to split being an effective psyker off from having high Ld; you might have someone like a cultist psyker who's powerful but not very stable, or a Space Marine who's stable but not massively powerful, or a Farseer who manages to be both. The other advantage is to put more gameplay into decisions about what powers go off.
That was something of a side effect of shared powers I think. When only your cultist psyker can use his cultist psyker power you only have one target to balance against.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







A.T. wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
To my mind the goal of the Warp Charge system is to split being an effective psyker off from having high Ld; you might have someone like a cultist psyker who's powerful but not very stable, or a Space Marine who's stable but not massively powerful, or a Farseer who manages to be both. The other advantage is to put more gameplay into decisions about what powers go off.
That was something of a side effect of shared powers I think. When only your cultist psyker can use his cultist psyker power you only have one target to balance against.


I liked shared powers because it created less bloat than having unique powers for every psyker, but considering that GW then added unique powers for most psykers anyway it didn't help much. I'm rewriting psychic rules now and I'm thinking shared powers could co-exist with the simpler psychic rules if Mastery level also either constrains what powers you have or what they can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Core rules update: I've done a quality pass over the whole document (thanks to Lance845 for pointing out problems), and rewritten the Psychic rules to implement the discussion we've had here.

Another Update: Orks!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/10 05:14:03


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







An update: Craftworld Eldar. They were my first army and I played them from 4e all the way through to 7e, so I felt more comfortable fiddling around with stats/mechanics than I did with the Orks. I have yet to decide if I'm going to do Craftworld appendixes but I think I've got some idea how to do them if I do. The "Xentarch" is off of the hoax Eldar range update release schedule from 7e as a generic Aspect HQ (killier than an Autarch, but without the Autarch's Warlord Trait), Harlequins are integrated here for now but may get more standalone content later, the book has all the plastic vehicles and almost all the FW vehicles, and there is a Craftworld Venom.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block




I have read your new rules and I appreciate your effort to simplify the psychic phase, but there is a thing I haven't understood: I haven't see the psychic phase in your new rulebook, when should the psykers use their powers: during the shooting phase?

If the Imperial Truth were right, the Gods of Chaos shouldn't exist, but this means that they shouldn't had been able to corrupt Horus, so his heresy shouldn't had happened. But because the Horus Heresy happened, the Gods exist, then the Emperor of Mankind is truly our God, so he is infallible and this prove that the Imperial Truth is true. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







That's in the "power types" description; Sustained powers are used at the start of the turn (to allow for movement-affecting powers), Witchfire powers are used instead of shooting a weapon, and Burst powers are used when specified in the power.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block




Clever!
Then I just suggest you to add anyway this entry in the section "Playing the game": with the lettering: «Psychic phase: see the entry "Types of powers" in "List, mission and unit"/"Unit types"/"Psyker"».
In this way the players will know immediately where they have to look, to understand when they can use their powers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/18 19:49:09


If the Imperial Truth were right, the Gods of Chaos shouldn't exist, but this means that they shouldn't had been able to corrupt Horus, so his heresy shouldn't had happened. But because the Horus Heresy happened, the Gods exist, then the Emperor of Mankind is truly our God, so he is infallible and this prove that the Imperial Truth is true. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I don't think that's necessary; that'd imply that there still is a psychic phase, and as of this update there isn't. I'm expecting players who want to use psykers to read the "psykers" heading in the rules to figure out how they work and learn it there.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block




Unfortunately I saw many players play without actually read the rules or deliberately misinterpreting them (which is worst) and with that kind of players is better make the things "fool proof"; but maybe I'm the one who played with the wrong people.

If the Imperial Truth were right, the Gods of Chaos shouldn't exist, but this means that they shouldn't had been able to corrupt Horus, so his heresy shouldn't had happened. But because the Horus Heresy happened, the Gods exist, then the Emperor of Mankind is truly our God, so he is infallible and this prove that the Imperial Truth is true. 
   
 
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