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Fluff-wise I think CSM ought to be better than SM. Having travelled (and survived) the Eye of Terror so long, having mean daemonic spirits on their side and what not, they should have a higher veteran status. You all know how the Eye of Terror is... Oh, that's right, you don't know how it is, CUZ YOU WEREN'T THERE, MAN!

Also I figure CSM have more hatred fuel in them (this is covered by the Veterans of the Long War rule, though), making them more vicious.

An important question is also which is better; to be completely restricted by the sacred Codex, or completely unrestricted by unholy Chaos? In terms of tactics and morale and such, I mean.

A CSM is an SM with evil magic add-ons, so they should be "better" I think. Also, pointy spikes and sharp horns on your armour would make you more lethal in CC.

Not all mutations are beneficial. In fact, most aren't.

More than likely, CSM mutations weaken them except for the most influential members.

Either way I think the current codex does them more justice than the previous one. The current one is more... strange. Which Chaos is too. Except they changed the Crazed rule for dreads/brutes. That's the only 5th edition rule I really liked with CSM. Wish they'd kept it as it was.

ChaoticBob wrote:Also I figure CSM have more hatred fuel in them (this is covered by the Veterans of the Long War rule, though), making them more vicious.

On the flipside, giving in to such base instincts and emotions prevents tactical acumen. A mind clouded by rage will likely not think as clear as one who focused on the concept of duty, not to mention how it could affect combat behaviour. Going in guns blazing, only to miss most your shots or have your magazine click empty when it shouldn't just because you were unable to maintain firing discipline. Your melee strikes being a flurry of attacks with a strength fueled by unholy fury, yet simultaneously neglecting to keep up your defense. The list goes on ...

... nearly everything that makes CSM different from Loyalists can be argued to be a strength or a weakness, all depending from which angle you look at it. That's the tricky thing about this question.

nomotog wrote:
Also wouldn't chaos take it's toll on them? Make them weaker over time?

 Melissia wrote:
Not all mutations are beneficial. In fact, most aren't.

More than likely, CSM mutations weaken them except for the most influential members.

This is what followers/fanbois of the Imperium actually believe.

I personally believe most CSM that participated in the HH would be a bit more favored than most.

As I understand it, while the Primarchs and Emp may have been ageless, the stock SM isn't. So even giving some leeway for timeline wonkiness from the Eye of Terror, warp travel, etc... any CSM from the heresy era would likely be dead unless he got some kind of benefit; Chosen, gifted (possessed), DP status... etc. Remember, we do have brief examples in fluff that mention SMs that take on support roles when they get too old, although a SM who survived that long would be rare to the extreme. I believe Dante is considered an exceptional example of longevity for a SM at about 1000, and that's with the BA having longer life spans than is normal.

So, we have some select variables that would allow a CSM to survive for that long, but each have their own buffs and downsides. Chosen are obviously better than your stock SM, possessed... nuff said. Demon prince isn't even a physical creature any longer and start going toe-to-toe with Dreads and other MCs, and standard SMs rarely have a chance in combat when they encounter one. So this leaves warp-time shifts and changes... If they haven't gone completely nuts, then what's likely is that they haven't experienced 10k years of passage. For them, it could be only a century, or even a few days since they last went to war in Horus's name.

But frankly, the biggest, most damning thing that keeps the CSMs from dominating the SMs are the fact that the Legions, even on the CSM side, no longer exist as would be recognizable. They've broken up, fractured, fragmented, and become roving warbands. No-one save Abbadon seems to be able to get them to organize in any great number, and they're just as likely to go to war with one another then they are with anything else. CSM simply do not have the organization to properly mount any kind of real offensive (again, outside Abby... even Huron seems content to play pirate and nothing more) to truly challenge the current IoM. Sure, they may take a planet here or there... but we've all seen just how much the Imperium values individual planets in the grand scheme of things.

That's not entirely true. The Word Bearers are still rather organized, often operating in chapter sized or larger formations with a centralized homeworld, as do many of the Iron Warriors Grand Companies. Ahriman and Typhus also operate sizeable forces, and of course, Abaddon's forces are quite considerable.

The Word Bearers spend most of their time culling their own ranks in an endless game of one-upsmanship between Kor Phaeron and Erebus. They have long lost sight of Lorgar's vision (and really, only Argel Tal really shared it, and he

Perhaps the original CSM are better than their loyalist counterparts (not that there's many of those left), but you have to remember that they've spent up to ten thousand years currying the favour of their gods. It would take a spectacularly unambitious marine to remain in the rank and file indefinitely. More likely, most of the original legions have taken over warbands of renegades as Chaos Lords or Daemon Princes, or they were killed in the various civil wars among the legions.

Of course, one problem with this theory is that it means that the new renegades are apparently abandoning their superior equipment for no good reason upon joining Chaos, but the

 1hadhq wrote:
Secondly, there is no such thing as 10k years of experience except a few exceptions.

There was a bit of fluff back in 2nd edition, from the Chaos Codex I would assume but it might have been somewhere else - a chaos marine conducting a mental exercise to preserve a few chosen memories, since there was no way he could possibly remember even an entire millenias experiences of war, anymore than anyone posting on this thread can remember every meal they have ever eaten.

I vaguely recall reading something like that - but it was a loyal Space Marine, not a CSM. And it was about memories from his first 50 years or so (including his past before becoming a Marine) which started to fade away.

In the end, 1hadhq has a good point. Space Marines on average "only" have a lifespan 2-3 times as long as a normal man, which means that (barring cases where a Chaos God making them immortal) they simply did not live that long (from their subjective experience of time), and hence also were not able to amass that much experience.

Time is fluid in the Warp and there is no fixed conversion rate - the only thing we know for sure is that nobody can have experienced "10k years of experience", because this would only be true if the time distortion would not exist at all. What may be a thousand years in realspace could be just ten in the Warp. Or a hundred years, or five months. All depending on where exactly you are within the Warp ... although even the idea of locations in this strange dimension may seem weird.

There was very definitely a CSM story about managing one's memories over thousands of years of war. I'll have to find and crack open my 2E book when I get home.

Hmmh, may be a matter of wording (battles fought over what would be a millennia in realspace?) ...

Or is it said anywhere that CSMs live longer because of mutation/corruption? That would be in line with the recent fluff about lifespans even without dismissing the time distortion.

I'll have to grab my book and re-read it, unfortunately being at work and not having read it in a while I can't remember the specifics :(

I know the feeling...

No worries, we can get back to this later on - thanks for looking it up!

 Lynata wrote:
I vaguely recall reading something like that - but it was a loyal Space Marine, not a CSM. And it was about memories from his first 50 years or so (including his past before becoming a Marine) which started to fade away.

In the end, 1hadhq has a good point. Space Marines on average "only" have a lifespan 2-3 times as long as a normal man, which means that (barring cases where a Chaos God making them immortal) they simply did not live that long (from their subjective experience of time), and hence also were not able to amass that much experience.

Time is fluid in the Warp and there is no fixed conversion rate - the only thing we know for sure is that nobody can have experienced "10k years of experience", because this would only be true if the time distortion would not exist at all. What may be a thousand years in realspace could be just ten in the Warp. Or a hundred years, or five months. All depending on where exactly you are within the Warp ... although even the idea of locations in this strange dimension may seem weird.

Or it could have been a billion years.

Or that. Time may even run backwards - anyone remember the story about that Waaagh where the Boss, exiting Warpspace, encountered himself just as he was about to enter?

Generally it seems to run faster (or at least this is what the material suggests), although it being the Warp there are no absolutes indeed.

I wouldn't be upset if VotLW let you give vet skills to units. Have it actually represent a marine that has been fighting since the heresy. Any marine who was around 10,000 years ago would have had, in addition to whatever experience they had gained fighting in the crusade, all the fighting skills gained during seven years of fighting against the other legions in the fiercest fighting the Imperium has ever seen. The Night Lords in the ADB novels felt as though it was 70 years subjective time since the heresy. Or was that 70 years since the Night Haunter had died. Whatever.

I don't think that CSM should have a better stat line than regular marines, but it would be nice if VotLW gave them access to vet skills they could purchase. Something to represent some of the tricks of the trade that they'd picked up over the decades.

Ok I have a few things to add,

1) I believe we cannot take into account the age of a M41 space marine in comparison to a M31 space marine, gene seed has degenerated over the milennia due to constant replication and that is a reason why many modern day space marines only average 2-300years. In Soul Hunter Talos has only experienced a relatively short time since the Heresy due to warp travel in any case.

2) CSMs are creatures of hate and bitterness, often they don't even trust their battle brothers, any increase in skill and experience could be explained away by the added need to watch their own backs more than a loyalist.

3) Although CSM mutations may be mostly advantages (and I use the word advantageous loosely) the humans who serve them are less fortunate. In the days of the great crusade each space marine would have had several personal attendants to deal with armour and weapons, not to mention the resources of the legio armourers and artificers. I believe few of these skilled people remain due to mutation, madness or the whims of their CSM masters. This would lead to badly maintained wargear which may well strip away any edge they posess.

Most of my opinions can be backed up by evidence from the Night Lords trilogy.