<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity 40k timeline, the Birth of Slaanesh happened around M29-M30, and it spurred two things;

1) The fall of the Eldar civilization, devolving into Dark Eldar, Exodites and Craftworld Eldar.

2) The clearing of the warp storms from around Terra and the start of the Great Crusade.

So, my question is this, why, in the currently expanding Horus Heresy fluff, isn't there a lot more references to the Eldar? Surely they should be everywhere, since before the fall they had a galaxy spanning civilization of supertechnology? Shouldn't they be bumping into huge groups of Eldar fleeing the fall, or at least ruined Eldar settlements, etc...?

I've heard that the Eye of Terror itself is the old Eldar civilization, if that is the case, did they all just get sucked into the warp, apart from the above mentioned survivors?

Basically, I feel like there should be a ton more Eldar related stuff popping up given how close it was to the start of the Great Crusade, but whenever they're described, it's like the Fall happened millennia ago, even when it was only a few hundred years (not so long if you're Eldar...).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5389803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5389803.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5389921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5389921.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Kajata wrote:

So, my question is this, why, in the currently expanding Horus Heresy fluff, isn't there a lot more references to the Eldar? Surely they should be everywhere, since before the fall they had a galaxy spanning civilization of supertechnology? Shouldn't they be bumping into huge groups of Eldar fleeing the fall, or at least ruined Eldar settlements, etc...?

Not really, Eldar did have many colonies but the main core of their civilization and empire was their homeworlds. The fact hat 90% of Eldar died when Eye was born proves that most of their race lived there. They are not like Humans to be spread all over the galaxy but they concentrated almost entire species in one point. Big mistake...

I've heard that the Eye of Terror itself is the old Eldar civilization, if that is the case, did they all just get sucked into the warp, apart from the above mentioned survivors?

They all died when they created Eye and Slaanesh feast on their souls.

Basically, I feel like there should be a ton more Eldar related stuff popping up given how close it was to the start of the Great Crusade, but whenever they're described, it's like the Fall happened millennia ago, even when it was only a few hundred years (not so long if you're Eldar...).

Not really, their entire empire was gone and their race almost got extinct. Those handful of survivors couldn't do anything more on galactic scale.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5389950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5389950.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity
There was also many more craftworlds than known today. Many of these craftworlds despite escaping eldar homeworld space were still too close and were killed by slaanesh. This indicates that the psychic shriek of slaanesh's birth traveled a huge distance perhaps even overlapping where the current craftworlds are located after 10 000 years of travel.

The shriek even went so far as to almost get into the webway and the fall knocked parts of the webway out. This collapse of transportation stranded many worlds which are still being rediscovered. On top of this without specific cultural adaptations eldar readily die (well for eldar) due to Slaanesh nibbling away at their souls and using their own intense emotions against them. So if they are not D.eldar, CW.eldar, or exodites they cannot really form a stable culture that will self replenish (i.e the last group are corsair which do not self replenish).

Additionally, keep in mind the eldar never were what humans would consider populous as they consider humans like orcs in that they breed and multiply like vermin. They had the webway and technology/psychic powers that made them masters due to being able to destroy any enemy that gathered before they could ever even move out against them due to precognition/instant travel.

Finally the IoM moved out and were cleansing the galaxy of even sub human and ab human populations the eldar were broken and reeling but still extremely stealthy, precognitive, and fast. They would have never even let humans see them unless there was benefit for them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5390799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5390799.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

ansacs wrote:

Finally the IoM moved out and were cleansing the galaxy of even sub human and ab human populations the eldar were broken and reeling but still extremely stealthy, precognitive, and fast. They would have never even let humans see them unless there was benefit for them.

The Crusades purpose was conquest of lost human space and reunification. Extermination was something that was just done on the way. And the Imperium accepts abhumans.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5391824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5391824.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity What I think is silly is that humanity's Golden Age of Technology now was supposedly concurrent with the height of the eldar empire - who would have curbstomped humanity without batting an eyelid.
But GA humanity is still described as peerless, which is silly, as the Eldar at their height had no one even close to their mastery of technology.
(Necrons don't count, they were all asleep at the time.)

It'd make more sense to have the Fall occur somewhere between now (M3) and M10, methinks.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5391890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5391890.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5391988.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5391988.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Bran Dawri wrote:

It'd make more sense to have the Fall occur somewhere between now (M3) and M10, methinks.

Yeah, before I actually sat down and looked at the 40k timeline, I had always assumed the fall of the eldar and the height of their civilization was when humanity hadn't really reached the stars. They're described as ancient a whole hell of a lot, which seems weird if they basically run on the same timescale as humanity.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392097.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Bran Dawri wrote:The Rise of the Imperium isn't what concerns me most with the current eldar timeline.
What I think is silly is that humanity's Golden Age of Technology now was supposedly concurrent with the height of the eldar empire - who would have curbstomped humanity without batting an eyelid.
But GA humanity is still described as peerless, which is silly, as the Eldar at their height had no one even close to their mastery of technology.
(Necrons don't count, they were all asleep at the time.)

It'd make more sense to have the Fall occur somewhere between now (M3) and M10, methinks.

Kajata wrote:
Bran Dawri wrote:

It'd make more sense to have the Fall occur somewhere between now (M3) and M10, methinks.

Yeah, before I actually sat down and looked at the 40k timeline, I had always assumed the fall of the eldar and the height of their civilization was when humanity hadn't really reached the stars. They're described as ancient a whole hell of a lot, which seems weird if they basically run on the same timescale as humanity.

I'm replying to the both of you:

The fall of the Eldar is the event that properly destroyed their empire and nearly wiped out their race.

Now one doesn't create a Chaos god in an instant. So the Eldar were already decadent and hedonistic before. The hedonism and decadence began long, long before the fall happened. It was going on at the time when humanity was slowly expanding across space. So its probable that the Eldar didn't even notice humanity or anything for that matter as they were too busy fapping to themselves and enjoying life.

They had their(Eldar) robotic units do the fighting, guarding and etc for them. Its probable that these robots destroyed any invaders into Eldar space thus allowing the Eldar to continure their hedonism undisturbed.

Also look at the below from the 5th edition Dark Eldar codex:

M18 is when humanity is stated to have developed the Warp drive. And already the Eldar are being decadent though not all of them but it starts affecting them all soon. Its likely that the Eldar didn't even notice humanity and humanity was smart enough not to irritate the Eldar and instead focus on crushing or killing or making peace with everyone else.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392201.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity If it was before the Fall proper, decadent or not, the Eldar would still have access to their most powerful and destructive technologies, rather than the relatively minor armaments of their trade vessels (ie, the Craftworlds).

Though it's possible GA humans did actually sneak about the stars so as not to piss off the Eldar, that's a far cry from the glorious unopposed conquest of the galaxy we're led to believe the GA of Technology represented.
They most certainly did not have technology surpassing the Eldar at their height.
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command."
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392528.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Bran Dawri wrote:

"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command."

Uh-huh...and the Necrons could do that too. And still do, in fact. Look up something called the Celestial Orrery.

In any case, my point is that Golden Age Humans based their technology on that of the Necrons, so Golden Age Humans probably and did have the technology to kick Eldar ass if they had to. They just had no reason too; Golden Age Humans were colonizers and explorers, not conquerors like the later Imperium. Even Imperial technology at it's height during the Great Crusade was only a mere shadow of what the Golden Age Humans had.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392581.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Bran Dawri wrote:
What does decadence and hedonism have to do with technological powerlevel?

uh...nothing. I didn't say anything about technology level. So what are you talking about?

If it was before the Fall proper, decadent or not, the Eldar would still have access to their most powerful and destructive technologies, rather than the relatively minor armaments of their trade vessels (ie, the Craftworlds).

And?

Though it's possible GA humans did actually sneak about the stars so as not to piss off the Eldar, that's a far cry from the glorious unopposed conquest of the galaxy we're led to believe the GA of Technology represented.

Did you even read my post? My supposition or whatever you call it is that the Eldar stopped paying attention to what went on in the greater galaxy cause they are too busy being hedonistic and decadent.

Also, Space is fething big! Humans didn't need to sneak around. Just stay away from the areas that are controlled by the Eldar which seeing as the majority of Eldar are in the core worlds and in the Webway is very easy.

They most certainly did not have technology surpassing the Eldar at their height.
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command."

Is this supposed to be impressive to DAoT humanity?

cause they could do that too as posted below:

taken from the 40k 6th edition rulebook. And just in case, this first showed up in the 5th edition rulebook.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392587.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

"Gentlemen, a toast! To the glory of our noble ancestors during the Golden Age of Technology!"

I'm willing to bet that Golden Age of Technology Humans had access to Power Armor more efficient than any Mark developed by the Adeptus Mechanicus, 'safe' Plasma Weapons as the standard infantry armament, grav-tanks and jetbikes outfitted with energy shields and laser weaponry, personalized shielding, and so on. And now we have proof that Golden Age Humans could blow stars up on a whim as well...as I've said, apart from the Webway and psychic engineering, the Golden Age Humans stood on par (if not superior considering their technology was based on Necron technology) with the ancient Eldar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392593.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:
[ They just had no reason too; Golden Age Humans were colonizers and explorers, not conquerors like the later Imperium. Even Imperial technology at it's height during the Great Crusade was only a mere shadow of what the Golden Age Humans had.

Do you really think that all those worlds settled by humanity during the DAoT era just happened to be empty?

Also from the 6th edition codex:

For the rest of the age,Mankind spread across the stars,becoming widely dispersed and divergent.There is evidence of
many wars,but none that threatened the stability of human space. The existing records List xenos enemies long since
extinct, along with more familiar names such as Eldar and Orks. Interplanetary trade was established and great fleets
carried goods to and from the ends of the galaxy. As planets became overpopulated, the recently invented construction
mediums of plasteel, plascrete, ferrocrete and rockcrete were used to build colossal cities: the proto-hives.

I'm pointing out the bold. Its possible that they were wiped out by the Imperium. But its also possible that they were wiped out by DAoT humanity.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392646.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392649.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:

I'm willing to bet that Golden Age of Technology Humans had access to Power Armor

Possible. Also possible that DAoT humanity let their machines(Iron men) do the fighting for them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392653.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity
Still, the rebellion of the Men of Iron was only one cause of the Golden Age's end, and after the destruction of the rebellious AI, I'm sure the Golden Age Humans put their minds and technologies to close the gap caused by the loss of their war mechs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392670.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity
We looked at how far humanity had spread through the galaxy, it was everywhere, on galactic terms it surrounded the pre fall eldar empire, we gained.this info by looking at the star map and previous fluff on the heresy and re uniting humanity.

This lead us to believe that.humanity would have.and indeed did have technology equivalent or superior to the eldar, had they not they could not have spread so far, border skirmishes would have happe]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392699.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392699.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:Hmmm, good point. And considering the awesome technological prowess at their disposal, only the Eldar and the Orks would have been a real threat against the Golden Age Humans.

Orks were probably only considered a threat due to how many of them there are. But Waaghs could be easily crushed by DAoT humanity. Eldar were probably treated with respect and avoided if they if DAoT humanity even met them at all.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Ah yes. The infamous Iron Men. Golden Age Humanity's greatest achievement, and their own downfall: AI-controlled replicas of the same Necrons they based their technology on.

Still, the rebellion of the Men of Iron was only one cause of the Golden Age's end, and after the destruction of the rebellious AI, I'm sure the Golden Age Humans put their minds and technologies to close the gap caused by the loss of their war mechs.

Agreed.

DAoT humanity was brought down by a list of events happening at relatively the same time. The events are, in no particular order:

1] A.I rebellion
2] Warp Storms
3] Psykers appearing everywhere and with them daemon possession and so on
4] Alien races predation
5] Human on human civil war.

Here is a list of info compiled about DAoT human tech: http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/daot-humanity-tech-source-thread.244762/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392715.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392715.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity
We looked at how far humanity had spread through the galaxy, it was everywhere, on galactic terms it surrounded the pre fall eldar empire, we gained.this info by looking at the star map and previous fluff on the heresy and re uniting humanity.

This lead us to believe that.humanity would have.and indeed did have technology equivalent or superior to the eldar, had they not they could not have spread so far, border skirmishes would have happened but I doubt full scale war as both sides would have been relatively peaceful, had they not I do not believe the fall would have happened as the eldar would be too embroiled in a full scale war, humanity would not be as widespread either for the same reason.

Another factor to this.was the arrogance of the eldar, they would never allow themselves to be surrounded by an enemy so completely unless the enemy was technologically on the same level or superior, look how they treated the orks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392718.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity
In any case, I'd like to point out that number two was actually the 'birth pains' of Slaanesh, and as such are the fault of the Eldar, and number four is indirectly a result of Humanity unable to reinforce its frontier because of inferior FTL and the Warp Storms making hell. Humanity would have recovered from number one soon enough, and the Emperor (of course, he wasn't Emperor then) would have dealt with numbers three and five in his own way at the time.

Formosa wrote:

Another factor to this.was the arrogance of the eldar, they would never allow themselves to be surrounded by an enemy so completely unless the enemy was technologically on the same level or superior, look how they treated the orks.

They probably knew they would win against the Golden Age Humans because of their advantages, but it would a victory so hollow that the Necrons would probably awake right then and there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392733.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392790.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity SB link I provided. It allows one to gleam some idea of what DAoT humanity was capable of.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392811.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Formosa wrote:
I doubt they could win against da humans, humans had them surrounded, outnumbered, and they had comparable or superior tech

They had the Webway though. And psionics. Game breakers...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392823.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:

Formosa wrote:
I doubt they could win against da humans, humans had them surrounded, outnumbered, and they had comparable or superior tech

They had the Webway though. And psionics. Game breakers...

Yeah. Psionics not weakened by Slaanesh plus the Eldar gods.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392828.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Formosa wrote:
I doubt they could win against da humans, humans had them surrounded, outnumbered, and they had comparable or superior tech

They had the Webway though. And psionics. Game breakers...

Yeah. Psionics not weakened by Slaanesh plus the Eldar gods.

But in everything else, it was like facing the Necron Empire in it's heyday. BOOM BABY! HUMANITY ROCKS!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392835.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command."

Careful with our leaps in logic Admiral.

Human technology during the Golden Age was not based on the Necrons even remotely. The Emperor sealing the Void Dragon on Mars was not about stealing Necron Technology... it was about him needing a source of intelligence in his machines without using actual AI and repeating the historical mistake of eventually creating the "Iron Men" again. The Void Dragon literally is the machine spirit present in the various war machines throughout the Imperium.

Also, the Necrons never possessed a technological advantage over the Eldar or the Old ones. They may have been equal at best, but never better. The Necrontyr were literally swept aside by the old ones (and their pets the Eldar). Once the Necrontyr became the Necrons, they had metal bodies, but still would have been unable to even bother the Old Ones had it not been for the C'tan. The codex all but says the C'tan did most of the work in the defeating the Old Ones. The Silent King realized that once the Old Ones were gone the C'tan would eventually feast on his own people, struck first and "shattered" the C'tan by suprising them... but he was still unable to destroy them.

The role of the Eldar in the war with the Old Ones is virtually undocumented other than to say that the Old Ones were killed. They may (or may not) have possessed even greater technology than the Necrons that would have won them the war had the C'tan not been involved.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5392996.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

En Excelsis wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Bran Dawri wrote:

"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command."

Uh-huh...and the Necrons could do that too. And still do, in fact. Look up something called the Celestial Orrery.

In any case, my point is that Golden Age Humans based their technology on that of the Necrons, so Golden Age Humans probably and did have the technology to kick Eldar ass if they had to. They just had no reason too; Golden Age Humans were colonizers and explorers, not conquerors like the later Imperium. Even Imperial technology at it's height during the Great Crusade was only a mere shadow of what the Golden Age Humans had.

I agree for the most part, however it is infact documented in mythic form, this is where we get the story of khaines burning body, vauls anvils, the newcron codex has not changed any of these events, just added necron personality to it all.

Just as a reminder, khaine fought the nightbringer, he defeated him and destroyed its body, it's scream of rage put the fear of death in every iBing being and shards of its body bored into khaine giving him his molten body, this is all myth]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5394829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5394829.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity
The current Eldar codex disagrees with anyone who says otherwise.

Page 4 of the Eldar codex says:

"The Eldar held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy"

it also says:

"Their technological and cultural achievements excelled those of all other races"

and goes on to say:

"No other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia"

those few lines totally contradict anyone saying humans had equal or better technology as the Eldar excelled those of ALL other races. It's in the current and most recent codex, its canon as far as can be canon with GW and it has not been ret conned or changed. Eldar win that debate. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5396460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5396460.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity
What we're doing is a leap of logic, we look at the fluff (such as it is) from dat, look at the reunification of humanity and can Sammies that for humanity to have expanded to such an extent without the eldar stopping them, they must have been comparable, otherwise humanity would not have existed, the eldar would have swatted them like a fly.

You would never willingly allow an enemy to surround you on all fronts unless there was a threat of mutual annihilation, eldar controlled the stars, da humans could make them super nova.. Swings and roundabouts]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5396645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5396645.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Formosa wrote:
The eldar codex would of course say that, the guard, space marine codex's dont really go into it.

What we're doing is a leap of logic, we look at the fluff (such as it is) from dat, look at the reunification of humanity and can Sammies that for humanity to have expanded to such an extent without the eldar stopping them, they must have been comparable, otherwise humanity would not have existed, the eldar would have swatted them like a fly.

You would never willingly allow an enemy to surround you on all fronts unless there was a threat of mutual annihilation, eldar controlled the stars, da humans could make them super nova.. Swings and roundabouts

Actually you are making a leap of logic. You are assuming the edar think like a human; that being surrounded by an enemy is a bad thing. For the eldar pre-fall being surrounded might actually have been of benefit as they were much more powerful psykers. If you always knew when and where an enemy would attack and could attack that position instantly with your entire force who could blow them away with little to no trouble would you fear being attack? No.

They saw humans as worms. Those worms were incredibly useful for holding back the flies that are the orks, etc. which annoy them. So being "surrounded" by relatively peaceful humans that can do all your border defense for you is actually a pretty good deal. Like how land is left open between N and S Korea as a buffer zone. Keep in mind as well "surrounded" is meaningless for the eldar as they can just go into the webway to escape and the humans can never cut off supply lines because those are again through the webway.

So my position is that the eldar actually had a logical and beneficial reason to allow the humans to colonize around them so as they never had to fight the petty squabbles with orks, small empires, etc. that they otherwise would have had to be involved in. This is based on the assumption that the eldar even paid attention to anything not eldar in the first place. They went incredibly eldar centric (far more than now) for a long time before the fall so they may never have even looked up from their games. Even if the individual human weapons were comparable the advantage of webway travel versus FLT would have meant instant surprise attack of 100 to 1 ratios at any fight the eldar deigned to be involved in. You could not have even mustered your fleet to fight the eldar pre-fall. Thank Slaanesh the humans have their "empire"; the poor foolish Mon'Keigh and their delusions of grandeur...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5396754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5396754.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity Before the Newcron codex put a bunch of GW sanctioned white-out all over the Eldar Codex, the story was quite a bit different. The Eldar lived basically as a member of the Old Ones (which was a collective of races, not a single species). The Eldar really didn't have a beef with humanity until after the fall. Hell up until then they seemed pretty neutral, if not friendly (Eldrad tried to warn the Imperium of the Heresy before... didn't help at all, but he tried).

Also, the Golden throne is a life-support system for the Emperor, but it serves more than one function. If memory serves, it's also a human-accessible entrance to the Webway, which the Emperor was mapping out. Nothing says that the Eldar just let humanity walk around the webay, but at that point nothing said otherwise either. It's very possible that the Emperor, and likely humanity at large, had some sort of agreement or alliance with the Eldar.

Imma go scour through some books and see if there are any documented instances of humanity fighting the Eldar prior to the Heresy... I can't think of any off-hand.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397277.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Hmm, don't have time to post a lot about this but I totally disagree with anyone saying that DAOT humans were anywhere on par with the tech level of the Eldar before the fall.

The current Eldar codex disagrees with anyone who says otherwise.

Page 4 of the Eldar codex says:

"The Eldar held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy"

it also says:

"Their technological and cultural achievements excelled those of all other races"

and goes on to say:

"No other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia"

those few lines totally contradict anyone saying humans had equal or better technology as the Eldar excelled those of ALL other races. It's in the current and most recent codex, its canon as far as can be canon with GW and it has not been ret conned or changed. Eldar win that debate.

Codexes focusing on a race say a lot of gak. Doesn't mean they are the full truth. Please focus on evidence instead of the mentality that cause the holy codex says something they it must be the full truth.

I put forward the supposition that the Eldar ignored the humans because they were busy being hedonistic and decadent plus their arrogance and let their robots do the fighting for them. I put Eldar tech ahead of DAoT humanity cause of the Webway, psionics and Eldar gods. DAoT humanity however are also powerful, you have to accept this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397287.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Hmm, don't have time to post a lot about this but I totally disagree with anyone saying that DAOT humans were anywhere on par with the tech level of the Eldar before the fall.

The current Eldar codex disagrees with anyone who says otherwise.

Page 4 of the Eldar codex says:

"The Eldar held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy"

it also says:

"Their technological and cultural achievements excelled those of all other races"

and goes on to say:

"No other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia"

those few lines totally contradict anyone saying humans had equal or better technology as the Eldar excelled those of ALL other races. It's in the current and most recent codex, its canon as far as can be canon with GW and it has not been ret conned or changed. Eldar win that debate.

usually the Gak starts after the opening pages of the codex. The bits I quoted are not from the view of anyone. Not like a lot of the imperial dogma that is written from the point of view of the Imperium with half truths. The beginning of the Eldar codex is written by a neutral narrator, not by some priest of the Imperium or even the Eldar. It is the overview of the reality of what the Eldar were, not some overdramatized story of them. This is backed up by the Dark Eldar codex and the Necron codex too.

What I quoted about the Eldar is true for the fictional universe of 40k. They were all powerful before the fall. No one threatened their existence. It took the birth of a Chaos God to destroy their empire, no one else was powerful enough. That is fact. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397448.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Hmm, don't have time to post a lot about this but I totally disagree with anyone saying that DAOT humans were anywhere on par with the tech level of the Eldar before the fall.

The current Eldar codex disagrees with anyone who says otherwise.

Page 4 of the Eldar codex says:

"The Eldar held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy"

it also says:

"Their technological and cultural achievements excelled those of all other races"

and goes on to say:

"No other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia"

those few lines totally contradict anyone saying humans had equal or better technology as the Eldar excelled those of ALL other races. It's in the current and most recent codex, its canon as far as can be canon with GW and it has not been ret conned or changed. Eldar win that debate.
Codexes focusing on a race say a lot of gak. Doesn't mean they are the full truth. Please focus on evidence instead of the mentality that cause the holy codex says something they it must be the full truth.

I put forward the supposition that the Eldar ignored the humans because they were busy being hedonistic and decadent plus their arrogance and let their robots do the fighting for them. I put Eldar tech ahead of DAoT humanity cause of the Webway, psionics and Eldar gods. DAoT humanity however are also powerful, you have to accept this.

I never stated that the Eldar were not powerful nor the mightiest empire around. I stated that DAoT humanity was also powerful and was expanding across the galaxy and not stopped cause Eldar were too busy fapping. Check out my DAoT humanity tech source thread to see what DAoT humanity was capable of.

Also, codexes written for the various races can be said to be propaganda also seeing as the codexes always highlight their awesomness and good points and just brushes over the bad points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397475.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

En Excelsis wrote:

Also, the Golden throne is a life-support system for the Emperor, but it serves more than one function. If memory serves, it's also a human-accessible entrance to the Webway, which the Emperor was mapping out. Nothing says that the Eldar just let humanity walk around the webay, but at that point nothing said otherwise either. It's very possible that the Emperor, and likely humanity at large, had some sort of agreement or alliance with the Eldar.

It was never completed though, and I've read somewhere that in addition to rendering Warp travel and astro-telepathy obsolete, another goal of the Imperial Webway Project was to bring battle directly to the Eldar. I mean, just look at the name of the project: IMPERIAL WEBWAY. It's clear he wanted to bring the Webway under Imperial and therefore Human control, and the only way to do so would have been to burn Commoragh to the ground and subjugating/destroying the Craftworlds. As for not being able to find them...consider this: the Emperor and Magnus - both of whom were the only ones actually intended to sit on the Golden Throne - are psykers far beyond any of the Eldar. I do not doubt that while sitting on the Golden Throne, they could actually sense the exact location of the Eldar and anyone else in the Webway.

The Emperor may have had had an arrangement with the Craftworld Eldar...but it was probably based on mutual suspicion, not trust.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397527.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:

Also, the Golden throne is a life-support system for the Emperor, but it serves more than one function. If memory serves, it's also a human-accessible entrance to the Webway, which the Emperor was mapping out. Nothing says that the Eldar just let humanity walk around the webay, but at that point nothing said otherwise either. It's very possible that the Emperor, and likely humanity at large, had some sort of agreement or alliance with the Eldar.

Whoa, hold on there Admiral Valerian. The Emperor and Magnus were not and are not more powerful psykers than the Eldar. Eldar are the most powerful psykers that have ever lived. That is why Slaanesh likes them above all other races. The ONLY reason Eldar don't seem as powerful as the Emperor or Magnus is because Slaanesh puts artificial limitations on them.

If Slaanesh weren't around you would see Eldar using massive psychic powers beyond what any other race could dream of. But because their souls burn so brightly in the Warp if they use Psychic powers that every daemon in the warp comes looking for them, they limit themselves through the path of the Warlock and the path of the Farseer.

Never forget that those are self imposed limitations. They don't HAVE to limit themselves to that meagre level of power (unless they want to commit suicide). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397662.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

Also, the Golden throne is a life-support system for the Emperor, but it serves more than one function. If memory serves, it's also a human-accessible entrance to the Webway, which the Emperor was mapping out. Nothing says that the Eldar just let humanity walk around the webay, but at that point nothing said otherwise either. It's very possible that the Emperor, and likely humanity at large, had some sort of agreement or alliance with the Eldar.

It was never completed though, and I've read somewhere that in addition to rendering Warp travel and astro-telepathy obsolete, another goal of the Imperial Webway Project was to bring battle directly to the Eldar. I mean, just look at the name of the project: IMPERIAL WEBWAY. It's clear he wanted to bring the Webway under Imperial and therefore Human control, and the only way to do so would have been to burn Commoragh to the ground and subjugating/destroying the Craftworlds. As for not being able to find them...consider this: the Emperor and Magnus - both of whom were the only ones actually intended to sit on the Golden Throne - are psykers far beyond any of the Eldar. I do not doubt that while sitting on the Golden Throne, they could actually sense the exact location of the Eldar and anyone else in the Webway.

The Emperor may have had had an arrangement with the Craftworld Eldar...but it was probably based on mutual suspicion, not trust.

But the Emperor is also said to be a powerful psyker. I forgot the statement but it said the most powerful psyker in the galaxy or most powerful human psyker *shrug*. At any rate, his power was such that the Chaos gods needed to get involved in order to beat his ass into the ground.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397673.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397683.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Yeah, it says "most powerful human psyker" about the Emperor. Human being the key word there.

can you post a quote?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397697.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397817.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:
On the contrary, the Emperor is the most powerful psyker to have ever lived. That's precisely why the Chaos Powers fear him so, whereas the Chaos Powers scoff at the Eldar.

Have you checked out my DAoT humanity tech source thread, Admiral Valerian? What do you think?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397828.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
On the contrary, the Emperor is the most powerful psyker to have ever lived. That's precisely why the Chaos Powers fear him so, whereas the Chaos Powers scoff at the Eldar.

Have you checked out my DAoT humanity tech source thread, Admiral Valerian? What do you think?

It fits. In any case, the comparison between the ancient Eldar and the Golden Age Humans is similar to the Forerunners and the Ancient Humans from Halo: the former had superior FTL and AI technology, but were equaled in everything else, and the latter actually had the potential to surpass the former and rival the Precursors. Same for 40k: the Eldar had superior FTL and psionics, but had the Golden Age not ended (also partly the fault of the Eldar), the Golden Age Humans would have surpassed the ancient Eldar thanks to Man's own psionic evolution (and the Emperor's influence from the shadows).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397843.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Admiral Valerian wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Admiral Valerian wrote:
On the contrary, the Emperor is the most powerful psyker to have ever lived. That's precisely why the Chaos Powers fear him so, whereas the Chaos Powers scoff at the Eldar.
Have you checked out my DAoT humanity tech source thread, Admiral Valerian? What do you think?

uh....Eldar having superior A.I tech? Human A.I is said to have actually become sentient and this sentience is what brought about the Iron Men rebellion. Although some Chaos guys say that it was the daemons that did it all; observe this quote from the Black Crusade core rulebook pg 24

The Dark Age of Technology exists only in myth in modern
times, and the causes of its ending are poorly understood. Many
cultures share similar stories of a breakdown of the golden age,
of entire regions becoming isolated by raging warp storms and
turning against themselves in crippling wars. Others tell of a
time of apotheosis for mankind, when mutations and psychic
powers became increasingly prevalent, and predatory beings
from warp space used such open conduits to feast on the living.
Worshippers of the Ruinous Powers maintain that these times
were the triumph of Chaos, when mankind’s fi rst fumbling
attempts to rule over the mortal realm were cast down into
anarchy by cackling daemons from the warp.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397878.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

En Excelsis wrote:
The Eldar most definitely look down on humans, this is not in question. But the Eldar have a history of working with other races peacefully. Humanity, while inferior, would still be something that the Eldar could hypothetically get along with.

Wrong. Before the newcron codex and the earlier retcon to the Fall occurring in M30, the eldar, despite their current fallen state were, and still are a bunch of arrogant, speciecist pricks, who use other races for their own benefit (kill a complete human planet to save one eldar? No problem), will-they or nill-they, who can still seriously contest the Imperium's supremacy should they wish to (they don't) - and that's *after* the Fall.
Before the Fall, when they didn't need the other races to survive, they would have had absolutely no reason whatsoever to even talk to humans, let alone ally themselves with them. The post-fall eldar term for the other races, mon-keigh, translates to "pond scum", FFS. As in, the eldar consider themselves as far above humans as humans consider themselves above pond scum.

I mean, the whole *point* of the Eldar race is that they were once far, far more than humanity could ever hope to be, both technologically and psychically, and even they could not stand against the hostile forces the universe arrayed against them. Even in their current fallen state they are a serious power in the galaxy. How, then, can humanity ever hope to survive, let alone return to greatness?

Take that away by randomly making GA humans the equal of pre-fall eldar (they were certainly more than a match for post-fall eldar), and why even bother to have the eldar in the setting at all?

The logical, and until the slowed retcon, official explanation for humanity's peerlessness during its golden age is that the Eldar empire and humanity at its height never co-existed, because the Fall took place long before humans ever reached the stars. Indeed, some old background material puts the fall before humanity even existed.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397889.page GMT Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Admiral Valerian wrote:
On the contrary, the Emperor is the most powerful psyker to have ever lived. That's precisely why the Chaos Powers fear him so, whereas the Chaos Powers scoff at the Eldar.
Have you checked out my DAoT humanity tech source thread, Admiral Valerian? What do you think?

It fits. In any case, the comparison between the ancient Eldar and the Golden Age Humans is similar to the Forerunners and the Ancient Humans from Halo: the former had superior FTL and AI technology, but were equaled in everything else, and the latter actually had the potential to surpass the former and rival the Precursors. Same for 40k: the Eldar had superior FTL and psionics, but had the Golden Age not ended (also partly the fault of the Eldar), the Golden Age Humans would have surpassed the ancient Eldar thanks to Man's own psionic evolution (and the Emperor's influence from the shadows).

uh....Eldar having superior A.I tech?

You misunderstood my post. I was merely pointing out the parallels between the relationship of the ancient Eldar and the Golden Age Humans and the relationship between the Forerunners and the Ancient Humans from Halo.

Bran Dawri wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:
The Eldar most definitely look down on humans, this is not in question. But the Eldar have a history of working with other races peacefully. Humanity, while inferior, would still be something that the Eldar could hypothetically get along with.

Wrong. Before the newcron codex and the earlier retcon to the Fall occurring in M30, the eldar, despite their current fallen state were, and still are a bunch of arrogant, speciecist pricks, who use other races for their own benefit (kill a complete human planet to save one eldar? No problem), will-they or nill-they, who can still seriously contest the Imperium's supremacy should they wish to (they don't) - and that's *after* the Fall.
Before the Fall, when they didn't need the other races to survive, they would have had absolutely no reason whatsoever to even talk to humans, let alone ally themselves with them. The post-fall eldar term for the other races, mon-keigh, translates to "pond scum", FFS. As in, the eldar consider themselves as far above humans as humans consider themselves above pond scum.

I mean, the whole *point* of the Eldar race is that they were once far, far more than humanity could ever hope to be, both technologically and psychically, and even they could not stand against the hostile forces the universe arrayed against them. Even in their current fallen state they are a serious power in the galaxy. How, then, can humanity ever hope to survive, let alone return to greatness?

Take that away by randomly making GA humans the equal of pre-fall eldar (they were certainly more than a match for post-fall eldar), and why even bother to have the eldar in the setting at all?

The logical, and until the slowed retcon, official explanation for humanity's peerlessness during its golden age is that the Eldar empire and humanity at its height never co-existed, because the Fall took place long before humans ever reached the stars. Indeed, some old background material puts the fall before humanity even existed.

Or the obvious explanation: Golden Age Humans were on par with the Eldar in technological terms, and would have surpassed them if not for the Webway and Eldar psionics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397892.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Bran Dawri wrote:

Wrong. Before the newcron codex and the earlier retcon to the Fall occurring in M30, the eldar, despite their current fallen state were, and still are a bunch of arrogant, speciecist pricks, who use other races for their own benefit (kill a complete human planet to save one eldar? No problem), will-they or nill-they, who can still seriously contest the Imperium's supremacy should they wish to (they don't) - and that's *after* the Fall.
Before the Fall, when they didn't need the other races to survive, they would have had absolutely no reason whatsoever to even talk to humans, let alone ally themselves with them. The post-fall eldar term for the other races, mon-keigh, translates to "pond scum", FFS. As in, the eldar consider themselves as far above humans as humans consider themselves above pond scum.

I mean, the whole *point* of the Eldar race is that they were once far, far more than humanity could ever hope to be, both technologically and psychically, and even they could not stand against the hostile forces the universe arrayed against them. Even in their current fallen state they are a serious power in the galaxy. How, then, can humanity ever hope to survive, let alone return to greatness?

Take that away by randomly making GA humans the equal of pre-fall eldar (they were certainly more than a match for post-fall eldar), and why even bother to have the eldar in the setting at all?

The logical, and until the slowed retcon, official explanation for humanity's peerlessness during its golden age is that the Eldar empire and humanity at its height never co-existed, because the Fall took place long before humans ever reached the stars. Indeed, some old background material puts the fall before humanity even existed.

*sigh* Retcons by GW have changed this. Also the Eldar hedonism and bringing about Slaanesh is what brought about the end of the DAot era! Take that away and there is no reason for the DAoT era to end.

I have already posted a supposition that can rationalize the fluff and even has evidence backing it up but no one pays attention and just bitches about changes

.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Admiral Valerian wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Admiral Valerian wrote:
On the contrary, the Emperor is the most powerful psyker to have ever lived. That's precisely why the Chaos Powers fear him so, whereas the Chaos Powers scoff at the Eldar.
Have you checked out my DAoT humanity tech source thread, Admiral Valerian? What do you think?

It fits. In any case, the comparison between the ancient Eldar and the Golden Age Humans is similar to the Forerunners and the Ancient Humans from Halo: the former had superior FTL and AI technology, but were equaled in everything else, and the latter actually had the potential to surpass the former and rival the Precursors. Same for 40k: the Eldar had superior FTL and psionics, but had the Golden Age not ended (also partly the fault of the Eldar), the Golden Age Humans would have surpassed the ancient Eldar thanks to Man's own psionic evolution (and the Emperor's influence from the shadows).
uh....Eldar having superior A.I tech?

You misunderstood my post. I was merely pointing out the parallels between the relationship of the ancient Eldar and the Golden Age Humans and the relationship between the Forerunners and the Ancient Humans from Halo.

Understood. Sorry.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5397901.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Whoa, hold on there Admiral Valerian. The Emperor and Magnus were not and are not more powerful psykers than the Eldar. Eldar are the most powerful psykers that have ever lived. That is why Slaanesh likes them above all other races. The ONLY reason Eldar don't seem as powerful as the Emperor or Magnus is because Slaanesh puts artificial limitations on them.

If Slaanesh weren't around you would see Eldar using massive psychic powers beyond what any other race could dream of. But because their souls burn so brightly in the Warp if they use Psychic powers that every daemon in the warp comes looking for them, they limit themselves through the path of the Warlock and the path of the Farseer.

Never forget that those are self imposed limitations. They don't HAVE to limit themselves to that meagre level of power (unless they want to commit suicide).

The Emperor is literally a Warp God in a human body. He started out as one thousand human psykers combined into one being, and has only grown from there.

Human technology wasn't derived from Necron tech. We don't even know, conclusively, that it's a C'tan imprisoned on Mars; I've seen a convincing argument that has Vaul being the "dragon" the Emperor imprisoned there. In either case, humanity didn't draw its technology from the being imprisoned on Mars; the AdMech set up shop there to get out of the conflicts on Terra, and even their tech is almost entirely derived from existing human knowledge or their own research, not the being imprisoned there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5398298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5398298.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Whoa, hold on there Admiral Valerian. The Emperor and Magnus were not and are not more powerful psykers than the Eldar. Eldar are the most powerful psykers that have ever lived. That is why Slaanesh likes them above all other races. The ONLY reason Eldar don't seem as powerful as the Emperor or Magnus is because Slaanesh puts artificial limitations on them.

If Slaanesh weren't around you would see Eldar using massive psychic powers beyond what any other race could dream of. But because their souls burn so brightly in the Warp if they use Psychic powers that every daemon in the warp comes looking for them, they limit themselves through the path of the Warlock and the path of the Farseer.

Never forget that those are self imposed limitations. They don't HAVE to limit themselves to that meagre level of power (unless they want to commit suicide).

We dont have a.convincing argument that its a c'tan on mars....Other than.. You know that whole book where they actually went and met the thing, and spoke to the keeper who watched it... Other than that you mean?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5399865.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5399865.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Formosa wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Whoa, hold on there Admiral Valerian. The Emperor and Magnus were not and are not more powerful psykers than the Eldar. Eldar are the most powerful psykers that have ever lived. That is why Slaanesh likes them above all other races. The ONLY reason Eldar don't seem as powerful as the Emperor or Magnus is because Slaanesh puts artificial limitations on them.

If Slaanesh weren't around you would see Eldar using massive psychic powers beyond what any other race could dream of. But because their souls burn so brightly in the Warp if they use Psychic powers that every daemon in the warp comes looking for them, they limit themselves through the path of the Warlock and the path of the Farseer.

Never forget that those are self imposed limitations. They don't HAVE to limit themselves to that meagre level of power (unless they want to commit suicide).

The Emperor is literally a Warp God in a human body. He started out as one thousand human psykers combined into one being, and has only grown from there.

Human technology wasn't derived from Necron tech. We don't even know, conclusively, that it's a C'tan imprisoned on Mars; I've seen a convincing argument that has Vaul being the "dragon" the Emperor imprisoned there. In either case, humanity didn't draw its technology from the being imprisoned on Mars; the AdMech set up shop there to get out of the conflicts on Terra, and even their tech is almost entirely derived from existing human knowledge or their own research, not the being imprisoned there.

That may have been retconned, as the necron codex says that every C'tan (but The Flayer) was shattered.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5400142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/514048/5400142.page GMT Re:Fall of the Eldar and the Rise of Humanity

Armadeus wrote:

Formosa wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Whoa, hold on there Admiral Valerian. The Emperor and Magnus were not and are not more powerful psykers than the Eldar. Eldar are the most powerful psykers that have ever lived. That is why Slaanesh likes them above all other races. The ONLY reason Eldar don't seem as powerful as the Emperor or Magnus is because Slaanesh puts artificial limitations on them.

If Slaanesh weren't around you would see Eldar using massive psychic powers beyond what any other race could dream of. But because their souls burn so brightly in the Warp if they use Psychic powers that every daemon in the warp comes looking for them, they limit themselves through the path of the Warlock and the path of the Farseer.

Never forget that those are self imposed limitations. They don't HAVE to limit themselves to that meagre level of power (unless they want to commit suicide).

The Emperor is literally a Warp God in a human body. He started out as one thousand human psykers combined into one being, and has only grown from there.

Human technology wasn't derived from Necron tech. We don't even know, conclusively, that it's a C'tan imprisoned on Mars; I've seen a convincing argument that has Vaul being the "dragon" the Emperor imprisoned there. In either case, humanity didn't draw its technology from the being imprisoned on Mars; the AdMech set up shop there to get out of the conflicts on Terra, and even their tech is almost entirely derived from existing human knowledge or their own research, not the being imprisoned there.

We dont have a.convincing argument that its a c'tan on mars....Other than.. You know that whole book where they actually went and met the thing, and spoke to the keeper who watched it... Other than that you mean?

That may have been retconned, as the necron codex says that every C'tan (but The Flayer) was shattered.

Regardless of whether it's a C'tan or not, the HH novel Mechanicum reveals that the reason the Emperor imprisoned the Dragon on Mars was because he needed it's dreams to influence the Humans living on Mars to develop advanced technology. Whether or not this was before or after the Golden Age was not said, but IMHO, it was before the Golden Age, because Mars was terraformed and settled before then, and just as some people can be biased towards Eldar, I can be biased towards Humans too

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