<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Making snipers better"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Making snipers better
The reason that snipers fall short, in my opinion, is that they really don't bring any different damage capability to an army. For example, an IG sniper would arguably do just as well armed with a bolter (sacrifices range, but gains rapid-fire and AP5). Wounding on a 4+ really doesn't have much advantage against T3/T4 troops, and 36" range doesn't make them anything special due to their cost. I think it's good that they have rending and precision shot, but I think they could use a little bit more.

I personally think that giving them ignores cover would be a big improvement and fill a unique niche for most armies. After all, they're trained marksman and should be able to shoot you through a tree. I think making them AP4 (depending on race maybe?) might also be an option. Any other ideas?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704712.page GMT Making snipers better OP. (For example, we'd never not see 100 kroot on the board.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704763.page GMT Re:Making snipers better DE player, I think I just naturally am oppose to an ignore cover sniper weapon, almost everything in my codex lives by the cover save.

How about re-roll to hit? Though poor Vindicare wouldn't be able to take advantage of that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704775.page GMT Making snipers better
i.e. Ratling Snipers rolling a 3+ to-hit would mean the shot cannot be LoS'd, while Guardsmen would require 4+.

Keep their current AP at 6, but give them 48" range and can't be fired (even snapshots) after moving (even by relentless models).

Finally, remove Rending, and just make them Wound on 4+ with AP2 on a 6. No damaging Vehicles. Make AT sniper units or rounds for that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5704950.page GMT Making snipers better fine. The reason people don't take so many snipers is because they can't maneuver well and tend to be rather fragile.

After facing sniper-drone-heavy Tau four times in the last month, and having previously played a Scout Sniper-based army, snipers are excellent.

I know people don't rate Sniper Drones over the other heavy support options, but when you're facing fifteen sniper drones with Ethereal support for +1 shot at under half range... that actually gives you 45 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound, Rending Precision shots. You're pretty much guaranteed to lose a unit under that weight of fire, and then the drones can JSJ back out of LoS to avoid return fire while their damn BS5-drone-controller-equipped Marksmen just hunker down behind a rock.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5705575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5705575.page GMT Making snipers better
OR AV14.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5706444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5706444.page GMT Making snipers better
Sniper Rifles aren't a god weapon like meltaguns, but that doesn't mean they need changing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5707361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5707361.page GMT Making snipers better http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5708116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5708116.page GMT Making snipers better http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5708368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5708368.page GMT Making snipers better http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5708436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5708436.page GMT Making snipers better GW to listen to your take on snipers. I absolutely love my sniper scouts, but it makes no sense they can barely hit their target and only score a nice shot 1/6 of the time. They are trained snipers!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5709393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5709393.page GMT Making snipers better
 chrisrawr wrote:
I'd prefer to keep each race's version of sniper rifles distinct, personally :/

I like this option, give them different to hit, different to wound, different bonuses, different ranges, different APs. A long-las should have different stats than a scout marine's rifle or a ranger long rifle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5709436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5709436.page GMT Re:Making snipers better USR which links to other USRs, which I am all for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712591.page GMT Making snipers better BS than a normal soldier simply by virtue of being a sniper. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712950.page GMT Making snipers better BS would be roughly similar to the racially-dictated norms. Using a sniper rifle and associated gear would correlate to an increase in Initiative and possibly Cover, Leadership, and the inclusion of "Stubborn" or "Fearless" special rules -- not necessarily an increase of Ballistics Skill.

It's the weapon and training that matter; A guard Sniper wouldn't be statistically much better with a lasgun than any other guard, and perhaps worse due to lack of training, if longshot las is their primary weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712961.page GMT Making snipers better
 chrisrawr wrote:

It's the weapon and training that matter; A guard Sniper wouldn't be statistically much better with a lasgun than any other guard, and perhaps worse due to lack of training, if longshot las is their primary weapon.

Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun. Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5712986.page GMT Making snipers better
Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it." ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5713237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5713237.page GMT Re:Making snipers better
I think if you expand your view and look beyond just the sniper rule of precision shot, 4+ to wound, 6 to rend, each sniper unit does have their own style:

DE have the ID test thing, and it's assault, but only coven units can bring them, with the same range as the marines' sniper rifle. Possibly scoring.
Necrons have a shorter range, but the unit can deepstrike/flyer-deploy and also has an USR that buffs it, as well as able to double tap at half range. Not possible to score.
Tau has the range, can double tap at half range as well, and can take advantage of markerlight buffs for BS or ignore cover. Possibly scoring.
Marines has scout, the unit is relatively cheap(for marines' standard), can bring cover save bonus, has a decent save compared with 2 of the 3 above. Always scoring.

Then there are IG and Eldar(any other?) that I'm not very fluent in, but I think saying that the "sniper rifles need to be distinct" is kinda weird when it's really only the marines sniper rifles that are same-y across the board, but they should be, because they're all the same weapon!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5713298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5713298.page GMT Making snipers better
 chrisrawr wrote:
"Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun."

Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it."

Snipers in non-sniper units could best be compared to designated marksmen, they aren't lone (or with just a spotter) snipers, they are an individual with a more accurate (and sometimes more powerful) rifle that they use to support the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Baronyu wrote:
Marines snipers are closer to video game/movie snipers than real snipers, right? Real snipers'd have a spotter, or whatever them people are called, not big on military stuffs.

I think if you expand your view and look beyond just the sniper rule of precision shot, 4+ to wound, 6 to rend, each sniper unit does have their own style:

DE have the ID test thing, and it's assault, but only coven units can bring them, with the same range as the marines' sniper rifle. Possibly scoring.
Necrons have a shorter range, but the unit can deepstrike/flyer-deploy and also has an USR that buffs it, as well as able to double tap at half range. Not possible to score.
Tau has the range, can double tap at half range as well, and can take advantage of markerlight buffs for BS or ignore cover. Possibly scoring.
Marines has scout, the unit is relatively cheap(for marines' standard), can bring cover save bonus, has a decent save compared with 2 of the 3 above. Always scoring.

Then there are IG and Eldar(any other?) that I'm not very fluent in, but I think saying that the "sniper rifles need to be distinct" is kinda weird when it's really only the marines sniper rifles that are same-y across the board, but they should be, because they're all the same weapon!

Except Eldar, IG, and Space Marines all have identical sniper rifles despite all of them being very different in fluff. Maybe instead of having random armies being the exception to the generic sniper rule, every army should have their own snipers, marine snipers could have one advantage (maybe wounding on a 3+ or rending on a 5+ or something), Eldar snipers could have a different one (maybe increased range), IG snipers could have their own.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5713411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5713411.page GMT Re:Making snipers better IG and marines are both IoM armies, are you gonna complain next that heavy bolters are the same across the board? SoB has the exact same heavy bolter as IG or marines! I think that is the intention, IoM armies draw from their weapons from the same pool. Now if you say the scout units could have something to distinguish them, I could agree, I mean, marines scouts are still superhuman! Though I guess that's reflected in the fact that they're S4 T4.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5714519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5714519.page GMT Making snipers better
 chrisrawr wrote:
"Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun."

Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it."
SEAL teams, and most military teams when you get to that level or higher, have a mixed unit composition. For instance, if you've ever read lone survivor, its an account by a SEAL whose entire team was killed after they were surrounded in the mountains of afghanistan. The writer survived. He was also a sniper. Every kill he got against the enemy afghans that day were all one shot kills. Keep in mind this is while under extraordinarily heavy fire from literally every direction. Snipers are marksmen. They are better at shooting than normal soldiers, no matter the weapon. Well, except for heavy weapons like missile launchers and such.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715240.page GMT Making snipers better
Snipers are Highly Trained Individuals. They are better at shooting than normal soldiers, because they have more training with the weapons they are using and often more experience with shooting. That puts them in the BS4 category, for units that are actually snipers.

For Guardsmen Blobs, the models with snipers should be BS3. They've been given a sniper rifle because they've shown some aptitude and the armoury had some to spare, not because they're expert marksmen.


For normal snipers of any sort, 48" HAS to be the minimum range. Necrons' Deathmarks don't have to be snipers anymore, they can have new, interesting guns to go with their rules. The Sniper 'role' should be "small model-count, high cost, bonuses for waiting/not moving."

Exceptions to this rule: Ratlings and Sniper Drones (though spotters could be more expensive to deal with that). Sniper Drones work through highly co-ordinate mid-range fire with their Spotter. Ratlings work through weight of numbers and genetic predisposition.

For example, for Ratlings, I'd give them Longshot Lasguns or a modified Autogun. They'd be in groups of 3-10, on weapons-teams bases with a spotter. While the model is at 2W, it gets BS4 and Ld8, precision shots on 5+, and decreases Cover by 1 point. The models don't need to be placed in coherency, but function as individual units - a killpoint being given out when all of them are dead. They have +1 to cover, and can buy Camo Cloaks (at double price) for another. They lose all benefits and may only make snap shots on turns they move, and - though they can fire normally - they lose the Spotter benefits on the turn after they move.


For Tau, one spotter is necessary for every 3 drones. You can have up to 3 spotters and 9 Drones per heavy slot, as normal, however

The Longshot Pulse Rifle is Twin-Linked, 36", Assault 2.
The spotter, instead of a Drone Controller and Markerlight, can do one of the following on turns that he doesn't move:
Ignore Cover
Increase BS to 5
Increase Shots by 1.

The drones themselves have S5, Precision Shooting, Tank Hunters, and Shred.


Continuing, Pathfinders (Eldar) would have something like:

BS5, 60" Range, S3 AP4 Monofilament Rifles, Heavy 1 Rending, Stealth and Shrouded, Ignores Cover, Precision on 4+, Rending on 4+. i.e. Vindicare-Lite. Function in units of up to 5, costly; 30ppm+]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715303.page GMT Making snipers better You could potentially add an extra rule along the lines of counts as +1BS or Twin-Linked if the unit didn't move, which would fit with the higher-accuracy nature of things.

Otherwise, it sounds as though it's a particular issue with some older units / rifles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715327.page GMT Making snipers better
 chrisrawr wrote:
Snip
One idea I had was to have a specific sniper team. One spotter, one sniper. While both are alive, BS is higher than normal. So, if a Guardsman sniper and spotter on on the field, while they are stationary and alive, they have BS5, while a SM team would have BS6 or 7, maybe even 8. Once one of them is killed, BS comes down to normal. The Spotter would also add a rule like Night Vision to the unit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715335.page GMT Re:Making snipers better
Baronyu wrote:
But again, I'm saying look at the unit as well as the weapon, I can't believe that Eldar's rangers have the same exact use as marines, with locator beacon, scout, 4+ save, camo cloak as well as the standard all-4's profile of marines.

Not my point at all. My point was that fluffwise a scout marine rifle, an Eldar Ranger Rifle, and a Long-las are completely different weapons. When it comes down to it Ratlings and Rangers have the exact same chance of killing a unit in a single volley (assuming equal numbers), having the same BS and weapons, hell if anything it makes scouts look like gak because these "elite" soldiers shoot as well as a random guardsman. Fluffwise however there is a big difference between a Ranger Long Rifle and a Long-las.

Also, IG and marines are both IoM armies, are you gonna complain next that heavy bolters are the same across the board?

No, my statement was more like comparing bolters to lasguns. Nowhere does it say that scout marines use a long-las, in fact Lexicanum says that Scouts tend to use slug throwing sniper rifles as opposed to the long-las. Their differences would be nothing like the difference between a marine bolt pistol and a guard bolt pistol.

SoB has the exact same heavy bolter as IG or marines! I think that is the intention, IoM armies draw from their weapons from the same pool.

Except not, every guardsman isn't armed with a bolter, every marine isn't armed with a lasgun, the Guard doesn't use predators, the Sisters of Battle don't use Leman Russes, and Space Marines don't use immolators. Why should a scout have a sniper rifle with the exact same stats as a guardsman or ratling when fluffwise they are different weapons and logically a space marine, even outside of power armour. There is even a precedent for the "same" weapons having different stats across armies, an IG shotgun is str 3, a space marine shotgun is str 4.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715372.page GMT Re:Making snipers better
Baronyu wrote:
But again, I'm saying look at the unit as well as the weapon, I can't believe that Eldar's rangers have the same exact use as marines, with locator beacon, scout, 4+ save, camo cloak as well as the standard all-4's profile of marines. Also, IG and marines are both IoM armies, are you gonna complain next that heavy bolters are the same across the board? SoB has the exact same heavy bolter as IG or marines! I think that is the intention, IoM armies draw from their weapons from the same pool. Now if you say the scout units could have something to distinguish them, I could agree, I mean, marines scouts are still superhuman! Though I guess that's reflected in the fact that they're S4 T4.



See buttons response. Explain how and why a Long-las should have the same stats as a Scout Sniper rifle, or why a long pulse rifle should have the same stats as a Ranger sniper rifle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5715822.page GMT Making snipers better http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5716300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5716300.page GMT Making snipers better AP or possibly allowing Rangers to Battle Focus after shooting their rifle).

 McNinja wrote:
 chrisrawr wrote:
"Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun."

Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it."
SEAL teams, and most military teams when you get to that level or higher, have a mixed unit composition. For instance, if you've ever read lone survivor, its an account by a SEAL whose entire team was killed after they were surrounded in the mountains of afghanistan. The writer survived. He was also a sniper. Every kill he got against the enemy afghans that day were all one shot kills. Keep in mind this is while under extraordinarily heavy fire from literally every direction. Snipers are marksmen. They are better at shooting than normal soldiers, no matter the weapon. Well, except for heavy weapons like missile launchers and such.

That sounds like a BS4 guy with a Sniper Rifle when put into game terms. BS4 is what models with near-perfect aim from fluff get in game. Also, I can't imagine the Afghan irregular wore anything resembling decent armour so I'd give them a 6+ save at best. Coupled with this I doubt the lone survivor shot at anything more than the first thing that came into view or the highest threat meaning that using this story to justify better precision shot is a bit of a stretch.

He must've gotten lucky on those 3+ cover saves ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5716647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5716647.page GMT Making snipers better
 AnomanderRake wrote:
...I'm slightly confused by the point this thread is trying to make; you're all ignoring the fact that snipers have Pinning, Rending, and Precision Shots on a 6 to hit. Snipers have a job to do, and they seem to do it fairly well under the current rules; I have no idea what rewriting them to do something else entirely under the claim that "snipers should be better!" is going to accomplish.

Because base snipers (strength X, wound on a 4+, AP 6, Heavy 1) are practically useless. Lets say you want to kill a marine sergeant with a sniper rifle, not a major target by a long shot. First you need to hit on a 4+ (6 to score a precision shot), then you need to wound on a 4+ (on a 6+ you can ignore his armour) then you need him to get a 1 or a 2 on his armour save. After all of that you have less than a 5% chance of actually killing your intended target. Honestly you stand a similar chance of killing a marine sergeant with 2 lasguns, at least they get double the shots, can move, and get 4 times the shots at close range. As for pinning, it is nearly worthless because so many units have special rules that make it so, fearless, stubborn.

The whole point of snipers should be that they are reliable, it doesn't mean a 5 point guardsman with a 5 point upgrade should get a kill every turn, but he shouldn't have to rely on rolling two 6s in order to kill a simple marine sergeant, but he should be something that makes your enemy actually worry about it instead of something that makes him chuckle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5717616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5717616.page GMT Making snipers better is a major target.

Sniper Rifles are fine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718121.page GMT Making snipers better >no tournament list in any army brings more than either necessary, or kroot/ranger sniper rifles
>lists based around them do poorly on a consistent basis
>not fun to use, not fun to play against

okay yeah they're fine for sure yup.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718213.page GMT Making snipers better LOS). And most of them should have poison 2+ and AP3 as standard IMHO, keeping the rending & S3 vs tanks thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718407.page GMT Making snipers better
 Furyou Miko wrote:
Bad example, Buttons - killing a Space Marine Sergeant is a major target.

Sniper Rifles are fine.

So what should one target with a sniper rifle? A random Ork, a guard sergeant with no extra equipment? Honestly the only target ever worth attempting to kill with a sniper rifle (and still requires like 10 guys with BS 4 to do reliably) is a commissar. Please, tell me what to shoot at with these guns that cannot punch through any armour, only have a 50/50 shot of wounding anyone, and a 1 in 6 chance of hitting their specific target.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718505.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718505.page GMT Making snipers better
Hunter Sniper:
Heavy 1 36" range
Hits with precision automatically.
S6, AP2, Fleshbane.
LoS requires a Leadership test to pass.
Stealth Shrouded Infiltrate. Can't relocate or move after deployment. Racial Armour Save and statline (4+ for marines, 5+ for guard, etc.). Defensive Grenades.
1-3 per army, 80 points each.

AT Sniper:
Heavy 1 36" range
Hits automatically.
S6, AP2, Armorbane.
Stealth Shrouded Infiltrate. Can't relocate or move after deployment. Racial Armour Save and statline (4+ for marines, 5+ for guard, etc.). Defensive Grenades.
1-3 per army, 80 points each.


Either or, but not both. Deploys as separate units.

They're not quite vindicare assassins, but not bad either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718546.page GMT Making snipers better
 chrisrawr wrote:

Hits with precision automatically.
S6, AP2, Fleshbane.
Hits automatically.
S6, AP2, Armorbane.

No, that is too much, especially the Hits automatically, the AP 2 (at least for the hunter), and the S 6 (for the hunter).

Honestly I think the only thing that should be done is to give Marine, Guard, and Eldar snipers slightly different stat lines. Maybe a marine sniper rifle could wound on a 3+ and be AP 5, an Eldar sniper could have an extra 12" of range and maybe subtract 1 from cover saves, a Guard rifle might be able to fire a super charge shot that Gets Hot! on a 1 or a 2, and wounds on a 3+ with AP 3.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718576.page GMT Making snipers better http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5718581.page GMT Making snipers better GW can't figure out how to make snipers good, since they have been given to relatively weak models. Snipers are not fielded in teams of 5 or 10, I can't think of any time in real life where a whole sqaud of purely snipers went out and did something.

Each army's snipers should be different, as should their weapons. Tau's are fine as they are, Eldar snipers are fine, it's the IG and SM snipers that really suck, mainly because of the low BS. Then again, IG snipers are better than SM snipers...

No sniper unit should have a BS under 4. Snipers train for long periods of time with their weapon after they've finished their basic training, there is no reason why they'd be as bad as a normal guardsman who just finished his training with a normal lasgun.

How to make snipers better:
1- Smaller units, max of 5 dudes per squad.
2- higher BS. BS4 or 5, unless you're talking about my sniper team idea where the two-man team is BS8 until one member is killed.
3- Better Anti-personnel weapons with more variations between armies. Right now Tau are the only ones with actually different sniper rifles, and those are the best snipers in the game (BS5 JSJ? yes). Sniper rifles need to have a lower AP and wound threshold. wounding on 4+ only really matters is you're facing an army of high-toughness things, and even then they're so unreliable that they are barely worth taking over other units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5729766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5729766.page GMT Making snipers better
I would honestly like to see a slot that can take 1-5 seperate 'Sniper Teams' of 2 men, both BS5, 1 spotter, 1 sniper.
Spotter has a 'default' rifle (lasgun / boltgun), confers shrouded, and makes all shots by the Sniper count as Twin-Linked, and Precision Shots are 4+.
Sniper has a 'default' rifle, and can choose an Anti-Tank sort of rifle (something like Str4, AP-, Armourbane), or Anti-Personell (Sniper, AP3), both Heavy 1 with a 48+" range.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5729842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5729842.page GMT Making snipers better http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5729889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5729889.page GMT Making snipers better IG ratling snipers, and I feel they are a tad underpowered & also suffer from competing with far better units for the same slot.

A basic +1 to BS and cover save if they don't move that turn would make me a very happy bunny and would also be fluffy (the sniper has time to slow his breathing, brace his weapon & find good cover to fire from). It also shouldn't be OP as they wouldn't get the bonus if they have had to maneuver for position, something it is relatively easy to force them to do.
I guess it wouldn't pan out for all snipers though, higher BS snipers from other codices would become OP.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5730103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5730103.page GMT Making snipers better BS snipers from other codices would become OP. "

Not if you adjusted price accordingly.

It's not the cost of the unit that's the problem, it's the fact that 'sniping' rules are hard to put into play when gamespace is limited and assault is prevalent, as well as morale and pinning being negligible factors.

To make Sniping effective, it has to either be powerful and costly, or placed on weak, cost-effective statlines, similar to Kroot.


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Alternatively, make snipers wound on leadership and cause morale problems, as well as increased chance of pinning based on damage done.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5731425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/531709/5731425.page GMT