Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With the rise of Monstrous Creatures, we are seeing some advocating snipers as a means to counter them. Looking at snipers in general though, I think they could use some buffs. Granted, my personal experience with snipers is pretty much limited to the Vindicare (who is just fine) but several armies have sniper options, which are often underused.

The reason that snipers fall short, in my opinion, is that they really don't bring any different damage capability to an army. For example, an IG sniper would arguably do just as well armed with a bolter (sacrifices range, but gains rapid-fire and AP5). Wounding on a 4+ really doesn't have much advantage against T3/T4 troops, and 36" range doesn't make them anything special due to their cost. I think it's good that they have rending and precision shot, but I think they could use a little bit more.

I personally think that giving them ignores cover would be a big improvement and fill a unique niche for most armies. After all, they're trained marksman and should be able to shoot you through a tree. I think making them AP4 (depending on race maybe?) might also be an option. Any other ideas?

Ap4 maaaybe... but their job was never to mow down infantry. Their job is to kill big nasties or take the leader out of a squad. Giving them better kill-everyone capabilities will make most units OP. (For example, we'd never not see 100 kroot on the board.)

Hmm... as a DE player, I think I just naturally am oppose to an ignore cover sniper weapon, almost everything in my codex lives by the cover save.

How about re-roll to hit? Though poor Vindicare wouldn't be able to take advantage of that.

It's simple. Make sniper's to-hit be on 2+, and have it be a Precision Shot. Look out Sir can't be taken if the Sniper's roll would be a 'hit' under its Ballistics Skill.

i.e. Ratling Snipers rolling a 3+ to-hit would mean the shot cannot be LoS'd, while Guardsmen would require 4+.

Keep their current AP at 6, but give them 48" range and can't be fired (even snapshots) after moving (even by relentless models).

Finally, remove Rending, and just make them Wound on 4+ with AP2 on a 6. No damaging Vehicles. Make AT sniper units or rounds for that.

Or you could just leave them as they are, because to be honest they're fine. The reason people don't take so many snipers is because they can't maneuver well and tend to be rather fragile.

After facing sniper-drone-heavy Tau four times in the last month, and having previously played a Scout Sniper-based army, snipers are excellent.

I know people don't rate Sniper Drones over the other heavy support options, but when you're facing fifteen sniper drones with Ethereal support for +1 shot at under half range... that actually gives you 45 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound, Rending Precision shots. You're pretty much guaranteed to lose a unit under that weight of fire, and then the drones can JSJ back out of LoS to avoid return fire while their damn BS5-drone-controller-equipped Marksmen just hunker down behind a rock.

Furyou, and then you take a drop pod in your next list and there goes THAT.

OR AV14.

If a drop pod is even hitting the ground against Tau, then the Tau player is doing something severely wrong... and there's nothing stopping them taking fusion blasters on suits or ion rifles on pathfinders or a thousand other weapons to deal with the AV14 stuff.

Sniper Rifles aren't a god weapon like meltaguns, but that doesn't mean they need changing.

Also, we're talking about sniper rifles, not longshot pulse rifles. The game can be made 'more fun' with better sniper rules; the current ones are poorly done and not very representative. Just because you've had troubles with tau doesn't mean the people who play other armies should be penalized.

So changing sniper rifles or changing the sniper rule? If you're just changing the rule then Tau can bring insane amounts of sniper weapons.

I'd prefer to keep each race's version of sniper rifles distinct, personally :/

chrisrawr please convince GW to listen to your take on snipers. I absolutely love my sniper scouts, but it makes no sense they can barely hit their target and only score a nice shot 1/6 of the time. They are trained snipers!

 chrisrawr wrote:
I'd prefer to keep each race's version of sniper rifles distinct, personally :/

I like this option, give them different to hit, different to wound, different bonuses, different ranges, different APs. A long-las should have different stats than a scout marine's rifle or a ranger long rifle.

I like the idea of giving different races different stats too, that actually seems like the best way to fix them. Plus, it gets rid of a rather cumbersome USR which links to other USRs, which I am all for.

There should also be changes to the actual unit as well. A sniper would have a higher BS than a normal soldier simply by virtue of being a sniper.

A common misconception: BS would be roughly similar to the racially-dictated norms. Using a sniper rifle and associated gear would correlate to an increase in Initiative and possibly Cover, Leadership, and the inclusion of "Stubborn" or "Fearless" special rules -- not necessarily an increase of Ballistics Skill.

It's the weapon and training that matter; A guard Sniper wouldn't be statistically much better with a lasgun than any other guard, and perhaps worse due to lack of training, if longshot las is their primary weapon.

 chrisrawr wrote:

It's the weapon and training that matter; A guard Sniper wouldn't be statistically much better with a lasgun than any other guard, and perhaps worse due to lack of training, if longshot las is their primary weapon.

Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun. Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is.

"Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun."

Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it."

Marines snipers are closer to video game/movie snipers than real snipers, right? Real snipers'd have a spotter, or whatever them people are called, not big on military stuffs.

I think if you expand your view and look beyond just the sniper rule of precision shot, 4+ to wound, 6 to rend, each sniper unit does have their own style:

DE have the ID test thing, and it's assault, but only coven units can bring them, with the same range as the marines' sniper rifle. Possibly scoring.
Necrons have a shorter range, but the unit can deepstrike/flyer-deploy and also has an USR that buffs it, as well as able to double tap at half range. Not possible to score.
Tau has the range, can double tap at half range as well, and can take advantage of markerlight buffs for BS or ignore cover. Possibly scoring.
Marines has scout, the unit is relatively cheap(for marines' standard), can bring cover save bonus, has a decent save compared with 2 of the 3 above. Always scoring.

Then there are IG and Eldar(any other?) that I'm not very fluent in, but I think saying that the "sniper rifles need to be distinct" is kinda weird when it's really only the marines sniper rifles that are same-y across the board, but they should be, because they're all the same weapon!

 chrisrawr wrote:
"Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun."

Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it."

Snipers in non-sniper units could best be compared to designated marksmen, they aren't lone (or with just a spotter) snipers, they are an individual with a more accurate (and sometimes more powerful) rifle that they use to support the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baronyu wrote:
Marines snipers are closer to video game/movie snipers than real snipers, right? Real snipers'd have a spotter, or whatever them people are called, not big on military stuffs.

I think if you expand your view and look beyond just the sniper rule of precision shot, 4+ to wound, 6 to rend, each sniper unit does have their own style:

DE have the ID test thing, and it's assault, but only coven units can bring them, with the same range as the marines' sniper rifle. Possibly scoring.
Necrons have a shorter range, but the unit can deepstrike/flyer-deploy and also has an USR that buffs it, as well as able to double tap at half range. Not possible to score.
Tau has the range, can double tap at half range as well, and can take advantage of markerlight buffs for BS or ignore cover. Possibly scoring.
Marines has scout, the unit is relatively cheap(for marines' standard), can bring cover save bonus, has a decent save compared with 2 of the 3 above. Always scoring.

Then there are IG and Eldar(any other?) that I'm not very fluent in, but I think saying that the "sniper rifles need to be distinct" is kinda weird when it's really only the marines sniper rifles that are same-y across the board, but they should be, because they're all the same weapon!

Except Eldar, IG, and Space Marines all have identical sniper rifles despite all of them being very different in fluff. Maybe instead of having random armies being the exception to the generic sniper rule, every army should have their own snipers, marine snipers could have one advantage (maybe wounding on a 3+ or rending on a 5+ or something), Eldar snipers could have a different one (maybe increased range), IG snipers could have their own.

But again, I'm saying look at the unit as well as the weapon, I can't believe that Eldar's rangers have the same exact use as marines, with locator beacon, scout, 4+ save, camo cloak as well as the standard all-4's profile of marines. Also, IG and marines are both IoM armies, are you gonna complain next that heavy bolters are the same across the board? SoB has the exact same heavy bolter as IG or marines! I think that is the intention, IoM armies draw from their weapons from the same pool. Now if you say the scout units could have something to distinguish them, I could agree, I mean, marines scouts are still superhuman! Though I guess that's reflected in the fact that they're S4 T4.

 chrisrawr wrote:
"Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun."

Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it."

SEAL teams, and most military teams when you get to that level or higher, have a mixed unit composition. For instance, if you've ever read lone survivor, its an account by a SEAL whose entire team was killed after they were surrounded in the mountains of afghanistan. The writer survived. He was also a sniper. Every kill he got against the enemy afghans that day were all one shot kills. Keep in mind this is while under extraordinarily heavy fire from literally every direction. Snipers are marksmen. They are better at shooting than normal soldiers, no matter the weapon. Well, except for heavy weapons like missile launchers and such.

From how I'm reading this, snipers should get better the more stress they're under? Or is it snipers should be able to kill 1 T3 Sv6+ model per round ignoring cover? Your example is Stormtroopers vs Cultists.

Snipers are Highly Trained Individuals. They are better at shooting than normal soldiers, because they have more training with the weapons they are using and often more experience with shooting. That puts them in the BS4 category, for units that are actually snipers.

For Guardsmen Blobs, the models with snipers should be BS3. They've been given a sniper rifle because they've shown some aptitude and the armoury had some to spare, not because they're expert marksmen.


For normal snipers of any sort, 48" HAS to be the minimum range. Necrons' Deathmarks don't have to be snipers anymore, they can have new, interesting guns to go with their rules. The Sniper 'role' should be "small model-count, high cost, bonuses for waiting/not moving."

Exceptions to this rule: Ratlings and Sniper Drones (though spotters could be more expensive to deal with that). Sniper Drones work through highly co-ordinate mid-range fire with their Spotter. Ratlings work through weight of numbers and genetic predisposition.

For example, for Ratlings, I'd give them Longshot Lasguns or a modified Autogun. They'd be in groups of 3-10, on weapons-teams bases with a spotter. While the model is at 2W, it gets BS4 and Ld8, precision shots on 5+, and decreases Cover by 1 point. The models don't need to be placed in coherency, but function as individual units - a killpoint being given out when all of them are dead. They have +1 to cover, and can buy Camo Cloaks (at double price) for another. They lose all benefits and may only make snap shots on turns they move, and - though they can fire normally - they lose the Spotter benefits on the turn after they move.


For Tau, one spotter is necessary for every 3 drones. You can have up to 3 spotters and 9 Drones per heavy slot, as normal, however

The Longshot Pulse Rifle is Twin-Linked, 36", Assault 2.
The spotter, instead of a Drone Controller and Markerlight, can do one of the following on turns that he doesn't move:
Ignore Cover
Increase BS to 5
Increase Shots by 1.

The drones themselves have S5, Precision Shooting, Tank Hunters, and Shred.


Continuing, Pathfinders (Eldar) would have something like:

BS5, 60" Range, S3 AP4 Monofilament Rifles, Heavy 1 Rending, Stealth and Shrouded, Ignores Cover, Precision on 4+, Rending on 4+. i.e. Vindicare-Lite. Function in units of up to 5, costly; 30ppm+

To be honest, the Sniper rule in general is fine as it is.
You could potentially add an extra rule along the lines of counts as +1BS or Twin-Linked if the unit didn't move, which would fit with the higher-accuracy nature of things.

Otherwise, it sounds as though it's a particular issue with some older units / rifles.

 chrisrawr wrote:
Snip

One idea I had was to have a specific sniper team. One spotter, one sniper. While both are alive, BS is higher than normal. So, if a Guardsman sniper and spotter on on the field, while they are stationary and alive, they have BS5, while a SM team would have BS6 or 7, maybe even 8. Once one of them is killed, BS comes down to normal. The Spotter would also add a rule like Night Vision to the unit.

Baronyu wrote:
But again, I'm saying look at the unit as well as the weapon, I can't believe that Eldar's rangers have the same exact use as marines, with locator beacon, scout, 4+ save, camo cloak as well as the standard all-4's profile of marines.

Not my point at all. My point was that fluffwise a scout marine rifle, an Eldar Ranger Rifle, and a Long-las are completely different weapons. When it comes down to it Ratlings and Rangers have the exact same chance of killing a unit in a single volley (assuming equal numbers), having the same BS and weapons, hell if anything it makes scouts look like gak because these "elite" soldiers shoot as well as a random guardsman. Fluffwise however there is a big difference between a Ranger Long Rifle and a Long-las.

Also, IG and marines are both IoM armies, are you gonna complain next that heavy bolters are the same across the board?

No, my statement was more like comparing bolters to lasguns. Nowhere does it say that scout marines use a long-las, in fact Lexicanum says that Scouts tend to use slug throwing sniper rifles as opposed to the long-las. Their differences would be nothing like the difference between a marine bolt pistol and a guard bolt pistol.

SoB has the exact same heavy bolter as IG or marines! I think that is the intention, IoM armies draw from their weapons from the same pool.

Except not, every guardsman isn't armed with a bolter, every marine isn't armed with a lasgun, the Guard doesn't use predators, the Sisters of Battle don't use Leman Russes, and Space Marines don't use immolators. Why should a scout have a sniper rifle with the exact same stats as a guardsman or ratling when fluffwise they are different weapons and logically a space marine, even outside of power armour. There is even a precedent for the "same" weapons having different stats across armies, an IG shotgun is str 3, a space marine shotgun is str 4.

Baronyu wrote:
But again, I'm saying look at the unit as well as the weapon, I can't believe that Eldar's rangers have the same exact use as marines, with locator beacon, scout, 4+ save, camo cloak as well as the standard all-4's profile of marines. Also, IG and marines are both IoM armies, are you gonna complain next that heavy bolters are the same across the board? SoB has the exact same heavy bolter as IG or marines! I think that is the intention, IoM armies draw from their weapons from the same pool. Now if you say the scout units could have something to distinguish them, I could agree, I mean, marines scouts are still superhuman! Though I guess that's reflected in the fact that they're S4 T4.

See buttons response. Explain how and why a Long-las should have the same stats as a Scout Sniper rifle, or why a long pulse rifle should have the same stats as a Ranger sniper rifle.

...I'm slightly confused by the point this thread is trying to make; you're all ignoring the fact that snipers have Pinning, Rending, and Precision Shots on a 6 to hit. Snipers have a job to do, and they seem to do it fairly well under the current rules; I have no idea what rewriting them to do something else entirely under the claim that "snipers should be better!" is going to accomplish.

The only thing snipers need is an adjustment to their points as the standard sniper rifle profile doesn't merit much in the way of higher point cost due to the model going from a move-and-shoot double-tap weapon to a sit-still-and-shoot-once gun most of the time (naturally stuff like Necrons are the exception). Maybe a bit of flavour depending on army (I'd say Eldar rifles really shouldn't have more range, it's not their thing, but maybe better wound or better natural AP or possibly allowing Rangers to Battle Focus after shooting their rifle).

 McNinja wrote:

 chrisrawr wrote:
"Maybe not, although he would be a better shot with his long las than a regular guardsman would be with his lasgun."

Absolutely, which is why he has it.

"Also, on the other stuff you mentioned, none of that inherently has to do with snipers, having more to do with how they are implemented. Snipers in modern militaries tend to be better trained hence stubborn and whatnot, also while a sniper might be better trained in using camo it doesn't mean the rest of the unit is. "

Well, I personally don't agree with putting sniper models in units with non-sniper models, so there is that. But guardsmen blobs with a few snipers in them is actually represented pretty well; "You are good enough with this slightly-less-cheap, slightly-less-mass-produced weapon that we can afford to give it to you and expect you not to die before you do something with it."

SEAL teams, and most military teams when you get to that level or higher, have a mixed unit composition. For instance, if you've ever read lone survivor, its an account by a SEAL whose entire team was killed after they were surrounded in the mountains of afghanistan. The writer survived. He was also a sniper. Every kill he got against the enemy afghans that day were all one shot kills. Keep in mind this is while under extraordinarily heavy fire from literally every direction. Snipers are marksmen. They are better at shooting than normal soldiers, no matter the weapon. Well, except for heavy weapons like missile launchers and such.

That sounds like a BS4 guy with a Sniper Rifle when put into game terms. BS4 is what models with near-perfect aim from fluff get in game. Also, I can't imagine the Afghan irregular wore anything resembling decent armour so I'd give them a 6+ save at best. Coupled with this I doubt the lone survivor shot at anything more than the first thing that came into view or the highest threat meaning that using this story to justify better precision shot is a bit of a stretch.

He must've gotten lucky on those 3+ cover saves

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...I'm slightly confused by the point this thread is trying to make; you're all ignoring the fact that snipers have Pinning, Rending, and Precision Shots on a 6 to hit. Snipers have a job to do, and they seem to do it fairly well under the current rules; I have no idea what rewriting them to do something else entirely under the claim that "snipers should be better!" is going to accomplish.

Because base snipers (strength X, wound on a 4+, AP 6, Heavy 1) are practically useless. Lets say you want to kill a marine sergeant with a sniper rifle, not a major target by a long shot. First you need to hit on a 4+ (6 to score a precision shot), then you need to wound on a 4+ (on a 6+ you can ignore his armour) then you need him to get a 1 or a 2 on his armour save. After all of that you have less than a 5% chance of actually killing your intended target. Honestly you stand a similar chance of killing a marine sergeant with 2 lasguns, at least they get double the shots, can move, and get 4 times the shots at close range. As for pinning, it is nearly worthless because so many units have special rules that make it so, fearless, stubborn.

The whole point of snipers should be that they are reliable, it doesn't mean a 5 point guardsman with a 5 point upgrade should get a kill every turn, but he shouldn't have to rely on rolling two 6s in order to kill a simple marine sergeant, but he should be something that makes your enemy actually worry about it instead of something that makes him chuckle.

Bad example, Buttons - killing a Space Marine Sergeant is a major target.

Sniper Rifles are fine.