Blacksails wrote:
Are you serious?

I mean, seriously, you honestly, 100%, truly believe the Vendetta is fairly costed and balanced?

Wow...

Your unit is broken. The ability to drop 4 demolisher cannons anywhere you want effectively removing cover in the process for 175pts AV12 flyer is positively absurd.

Why not try giving it rules for bombs and other flyer weapons that already exist, instead of claiming its an anti-horde variant that is equally effective against tanks.

 curran12 wrote:
That is a misleading line of logic, Ehrenstein.

Since this is a flyer, it is guaranteed to not have at least one turn of shooting. Likewise, the positioning and moving rules for flyers will mean that in almost all circumstances, it will not have a shooting solution, or in this case bombing. So in all honesty, being able to drop a limited number of bombs does nothing to limit its effectiveness, it only appears to limit it.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:


Maybe 140 would be better for the Vendetta.

I can increase the points for the bombs, which I reduced from the rockets since they can only be dropped. It's really not that far off from a Leman Russ Demolisher, since that tank can fire every turn, yet the flyer can only drop the same attack four times. I do see that the flyer would have the mobility advantage over a Leman Russ, so it can make the attack against more places on the board. Plus the movement of 36" gives it a longer range than 24". I'll increase the points because of that. Plus the flyer could also drop the bombs in a row, giving it more attacks per turn than the tank. That should require a big point increase. One important thing to keep in mind though is how often it would be able to make a particular attack, not just that it can.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:


Maybe 140 would be better for the Vendetta.

I can increase the points for the bombs, which I reduced from the rockets since they can only be dropped. It's really not that far off from a Leman Russ Demolisher, since that tank can fire every turn, yet the flyer can only drop the same attack four times. I do see that the flyer would have the mobility advantage over a Leman Russ, so it can make the attack against more places on the board. Plus the movement of 36" gives it a longer range than 24". I'll increase the points because of that. Plus the flyer could also drop the bombs in a row, giving it more attacks per turn than the tank. That should require a big point increase. One important thing to keep in mind though is how often it would be able to make a particular attack, not just that it can.

No, 140pts would not make the Vendetta balanced. A balanced Vendetta would lose transport capacity and brought down to AV11/11/10 for 130pts. Then it would be perfectly in line with all the other flyers.

Dropping them isn't hard. You can't eliminate player skill in your equation of balance, as anyone with enough brain cells to rub together would fairly easily be capable of dropping all those bombs. Further, they only scatter 1D6 at most; this definitively better than 2D6 minus BS. Accurate, as reliable and largely cover ignoring demolisher cannons.

The demolisher is a fairly balanced, if even slightly underwhelming unit because of its short range, slower movement, and vulnerability to assault. It gets AV14 as a trade off, but loses mobility and is susceptible to all forms of shooting.

A 175pts AV12/12/12 (not even rear 10, which is should be) with four demolisher shots is very powerful. A unit like that is worth at least 200pts. But that won't balance this.

It needs to become an AV11 flyer, with values of AV11/11/10. Then you need to give it reasonable weapons.

Go look at every other flyer in existence and all their weapons and bombs. Go get the rules for the Thunderbolt, Lightning and Avenger. Use weapons from those. Give it a special rule or something to distinguish it.

Aim to have it costed between 140 and 175pts.

 Blacksails wrote:
Sorry, it has 6 autocannons!?

I mean, wow. That's positively absurd. The marauder, as super heavy flyer has three twin-linked autocannon. Your attack fighter has 6.

You still don't understand that the Vendetta is woefully undercosted and should not, in any way shape or form be used a point of reference. Look at all the current flyers in this edition so far. All (barring the Hellturkey) are AV11 or worse, and the single AV12 flyer that isn't the hellturkey is balanced and probably even underpowered.

Your flyer should start its life like this:

IS-2
AV 11 11 10
Flyer
Strafing run

Wargear: 3 autocannons

Options (choose one):
6 Tactical Bombs: +40pts
2 Hellstrike missiles: +20pts
2 Hellfury missiles: +20pts

Tactical Bombs as S6 AP4 small blast, Hellstrikes are S8 AP3 Ordnance (no blast) and Hellfuries are S4 AP5 Large blast no cover.

Base cost of 150pts for an HP3 AV11 flyer with three autocannons. Pay 40pts to make it more effective against a variety of targets through the bombs, or pay 20pts for a boost to other targets.

When designing something, you need to ensure it can't do everything well. Your current iteration has no drawbacks. Its tough, shooty, and cheap. Pick two.

 Blacksails wrote:
Seriously, use what I posted as a starting point.

Do not use the Vendetta as any point of reference for making flyers in 6th. Not even a little. Forget it exists. Look at every other flyer that's been released in 6th, and the ones in IA: Aeronautica. Those are all very reasonable.

Also, stop comparing the autocannons to killing GEQ and MEQ. Those are literally the worst targets for autocannons and shouldn't be used to justify how poor of a unit you think it is. Its a wrong comparison. Look at how many HP it can strip off of flyers, MCs, and vehicles. If you want a dedicated horde killer, don't give it autocannons. Give it heavy bolters.

Because, right now, you are really confusing the roles of everything here. Is this for anti-horde work, or anti- tank work? Is it meant for both?

Honestly though, it should be AV11, or like the Avenger and be AV12 only in the front and AV10 everywhere else.