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Here's the rules:

http://www.sturmkrieg.us/Datasheet:IS-2_Stormwind#.Ui9h_2TwKew

This unit is going to be used in a major campaign, and will be accessible to anyone using an Imperium army, so it's important that it be well built.

The cost was taken from the Vendetta since it's similar but is good against infantry instead of tanks (unless it has weapons options). Points were added since it has increased rear armor (which is of limited usefulness, basically only if units it passes at close range have high strength weapons) and because it's still effective against light vehicles.

I gave the rockets a low strength and Armorbane to keep them effective against vehicles, not monstrous creatures. Please keep this low strength in mind when reviewing the unit. If you go "oh God it has Armorbane that's really powerful" I will ignore your comment. However if you think the strength still need to come down, I will listen to that.

Wait, let me get this straight: you are seriously saying it's a good idea to base your point cost on the absurdly underpriced Vendetta?

Seemed a little excessive.

Are you serious?

I mean, seriously, you honestly, 100%, truly believe the Vendetta is fairly costed and balanced?

Wow...

Your unit is broken. The ability to drop 4 demolisher cannons anywhere you want effectively removing cover in the process for 175pts AV12 flyer is positively absurd.

Why not try giving it rules for bombs and other flyer weapons that already exist, instead of claiming its an anti-horde variant that is equally effective against tanks.

 Blacksails wrote:
Are you serious?

I mean, seriously, you honestly, 100%, truly believe the Vendetta is fairly costed and balanced?

Wow...

Your unit is broken. The ability to drop 4 demolisher cannons anywhere you want effectively removing cover in the process for 175pts AV12 flyer is positively absurd.

Why not try giving it rules for bombs and other flyer weapons that already exist, instead of claiming its an anti-horde variant that is equally effective against tanks.

Maybe 140 would be better for the Vendetta.

I can increase the points for the bombs, which I reduced from the rockets since they can only be dropped. It's really not that far off from a Leman Russ Demolisher, since that tank can fire every turn, yet the flyer can only drop the same attack four times. I do see that the flyer would have the mobility advantage over a Leman Russ, so it can make the attack against more places on the board. Plus the movement of 36" gives it a longer range than 24". I'll increase the points because of that. Plus the flyer could also drop the bombs in a row, giving it more attacks per turn than the tank. That should require a big point increase. One important thing to keep in mind though is how often it would be able to make a particular attack, not just that it can.

That is a misleading line of logic, Ehrenstein.

Since this is a flyer, it is guaranteed to not have at least one turn of shooting. Likewise, the positioning and moving rules for flyers will mean that in almost all circumstances, it will not have a shooting solution, or in this case bombing. So in all honesty, being able to drop a limited number of bombs does nothing to limit its effectiveness, it only appears to limit it.

 curran12 wrote:
That is a misleading line of logic, Ehrenstein.

Since this is a flyer, it is guaranteed to not have at least one turn of shooting. Likewise, the positioning and moving rules for flyers will mean that in almost all circumstances, it will not have a shooting solution, or in this case bombing. So in all honesty, being able to drop a limited number of bombs does nothing to limit its effectiveness, it only appears to limit it.

That's true. It probably won't have as many opportunities to attack the the Demolisher would, because of the nature of flyers and required movement, but the Demolisher would also be limited by less mobility.

I raised the bomb cost to 55 points, though I could take it higher. At anything over 60, I would prefer that it be play tested first. The bombs themselves are effective against everything, so that justifies higher cost. They also take an anti infantry and light vehicle unit and make it effective against everything.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:


Maybe 140 would be better for the Vendetta.

I can increase the points for the bombs, which I reduced from the rockets since they can only be dropped. It's really not that far off from a Leman Russ Demolisher, since that tank can fire every turn, yet the flyer can only drop the same attack four times. I do see that the flyer would have the mobility advantage over a Leman Russ, so it can make the attack against more places on the board. Plus the movement of 36" gives it a longer range than 24". I'll increase the points because of that. Plus the flyer could also drop the bombs in a row, giving it more attacks per turn than the tank. That should require a big point increase. One important thing to keep in mind though is how often it would be able to make a particular attack, not just that it can.

No, 140pts would not make the Vendetta balanced. A balanced Vendetta would lose transport capacity and brought down to AV11/11/10 for 130pts. Then it would be perfectly in line with all the other flyers.

Dropping them isn't hard. You can't eliminate player skill in your equation of balance, as anyone with enough brain cells to rub together would fairly easily be capable of dropping all those bombs. Further, they only scatter 1D6 at most; this definitively better than 2D6 minus BS. Accurate, as reliable and largely cover ignoring demolisher cannons.

The demolisher is a fairly balanced, if even slightly underwhelming unit because of its short range, slower movement, and vulnerability to assault. It gets AV14 as a trade off, but loses mobility and is susceptible to all forms of shooting.

A 175pts AV12/12/12 (not even rear 10, which is should be) with four demolisher shots is very powerful. A unit like that is worth at least 200pts. But that won't balance this.

It needs to become an AV11 flyer, with values of AV11/11/10. Then you need to give it reasonable weapons.

Go look at every other flyer in existence and all their weapons and bombs. Go get the rules for the Thunderbolt, Lightning and Avenger. Use weapons from those. Give it a special rule or something to distinguish it.

Aim to have it costed between 140 and 175pts.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:


Maybe 140 would be better for the Vendetta.

I can increase the points for the bombs, which I reduced from the rockets since they can only be dropped. It's really not that far off from a Leman Russ Demolisher, since that tank can fire every turn, yet the flyer can only drop the same attack four times. I do see that the flyer would have the mobility advantage over a Leman Russ, so it can make the attack against more places on the board. Plus the movement of 36" gives it a longer range than 24". I'll increase the points because of that. Plus the flyer could also drop the bombs in a row, giving it more attacks per turn than the tank. That should require a big point increase. One important thing to keep in mind though is how often it would be able to make a particular attack, not just that it can.

No, 140pts would not make the Vendetta balanced. A balanced Vendetta would lose transport capacity and brought down to AV11/11/10 for 130pts. Then it would be perfectly in line with all the other flyers.

Dropping them isn't hard. You can't eliminate player skill in your equation of balance, as anyone with enough brain cells to rub together would fairly easily be capable of dropping all those bombs. Further, they only scatter 1D6 at most; this definitively better than 2D6 minus BS. Accurate, as reliable and largely cover ignoring demolisher cannons.

The demolisher is a fairly balanced, if even slightly underwhelming unit because of its short range, slower movement, and vulnerability to assault. It gets AV14 as a trade off, but loses mobility and is susceptible to all forms of shooting.

A 175pts AV12/12/12 (not even rear 10, which is should be) with four demolisher shots is very powerful. A unit like that is worth at least 200pts. But that won't balance this.

It needs to become an AV11 flyer, with values of AV11/11/10. Then you need to give it reasonable weapons.

Go look at every other flyer in existence and all their weapons and bombs. Go get the rules for the Thunderbolt, Lightning and Avenger. Use weapons from those. Give it a special rule or something to distinguish it.

Aim to have it costed between 140 and 175pts.

I set it to 150. It's important to make sure that with the vanilla variant that it's still going to be worth taking. With six autocannons at BS 3, it's going to get 12 shots, half of them will hit, 5 will wound, and against MEQ, 1 or 2 will die. On it's own the vanilla version won't be a super powerful anti infantry unit against many armies. It needs to make sure it doesn't suffer from the flaws that killed the Leman Russ Punisher, which is a paper tank.

At 150 points, the bombs will put it at 205, which is above and close to your suggestion of 200.

Sorry, it has 6 autocannons!?

I mean, wow. That's positively absurd. The marauder, as super heavy flyer has three twin-linked autocannon. Your attack fighter has 6.

You still don't understand that the Vendetta is woefully undercosted and should not, in any way shape or form be used a point of reference. Look at all the current flyers in this edition so far. All (barring the Hellturkey) are AV11 or worse, and the single AV12 flyer that isn't the hellturkey is balanced and probably even underpowered.

Your flyer should start its life like this:

IS-2
AV 11 11 10
Flyer
Strafing run

Wargear: 3 autocannons

Options (choose one):
6 Tactical Bombs: +40pts
2 Hellstrike missiles: +20pts
2 Hellfury missiles: +20pts

Tactical Bombs as S6 AP4 small blast, Hellstrikes are S8 AP3 Ordnance (no blast) and Hellfuries are S4 AP5 Large blast no cover.

Base cost of 150pts for an HP3 AV11 flyer with three autocannons. Pay 40pts to make it more effective against a variety of targets through the bombs, or pay 20pts for a boost to other targets.

When designing something, you need to ensure it can't do everything well. Your current iteration has no drawbacks. Its tough, shooty, and cheap. Pick two.

 Blacksails wrote:
Sorry, it has 6 autocannons!?

I mean, wow. That's positively absurd. The marauder, as super heavy flyer has three twin-linked autocannon. Your attack fighter has 6.

You still don't understand that the Vendetta is woefully undercosted and should not, in any way shape or form be used a point of reference. Look at all the current flyers in this edition so far. All (barring the Hellturkey) are AV11 or worse, and the single AV12 flyer that isn't the hellturkey is balanced and probably even underpowered.

Your flyer should start its life like this:

IS-2
AV 11 11 10
Flyer
Strafing run

Wargear: 3 autocannons

Options (choose one):
6 Tactical Bombs: +40pts
2 Hellstrike missiles: +20pts
2 Hellfury missiles: +20pts

Tactical Bombs as S6 AP4 small blast, Hellstrikes are S8 AP3 Ordnance (no blast) and Hellfuries are S4 AP5 Large blast no cover.

Base cost of 150pts for an HP3 AV11 flyer with three autocannons. Pay 40pts to make it more effective against a variety of targets through the bombs, or pay 20pts for a boost to other targets.

When designing something, you need to ensure it can't do everything well. Your current iteration has no drawbacks. Its tough, shooty, and cheap. Pick two.

This isn't directed at you, it's directed at the idiots at GW who came up with this

3 twin link autocannons = 6 autocannon barrels

I also hate the rules for twin link, and I refuse to use them. It is absolutely mind boggling that anyone would think that doubling the number of weapons "makes it more likely to hit." If anything, you should be allowed to reroll a D6 for each shot at any point if you have not already rerolled for that shot. It's stupid and beyond words how anyone can think that twin link rules make any sense at all.

One of the problems that comes up with using existing weapons in specialty books is that the rules for them can't be posted on the page with the flyer rules, as that would violate GW policy. I also don't find it fair to require someone to buy an Apocalypse or Imperial Armor book just to get the rules for the weapons.

Even with 6 autocannons, it can only kill 1-2 MEQ or 6 horde army grunts per turn. And it's at the cost of three IG squads, which could easily do more than that. I'll play test it, and if it seems that it's too powerful, I'll increase the points for it. Right now I think the points need to go toward the upgrades. 60 point bombs, 40 point rockets, 30 point targeting computer.

Seriously, use what I posted as a starting point.

Do not use the Vendetta as any point of reference for making flyers in 6th. Not even a little. Forget it exists. Look at every other flyer that's been released in 6th, and the ones in IA: Aeronautica. Those are all very reasonable.

Also, stop comparing the autocannons to killing GEQ and MEQ. Those are literally the worst targets for autocannons and shouldn't be used to justify how poor of a unit you think it is. Its a wrong comparison. Look at how many HP it can strip off of flyers, MCs, and vehicles. If you want a dedicated horde killer, don't give it autocannons. Give it heavy bolters.

Because, right now, you are really confusing the roles of everything here. Is this for anti-horde work, or anti- tank work? Is it meant for both?

Honestly though, it should be AV11, or like the Avenger and be AV12 only in the front and AV10 everywhere else.

 Blacksails wrote:
Seriously, use what I posted as a starting point.

Do not use the Vendetta as any point of reference for making flyers in 6th. Not even a little. Forget it exists. Look at every other flyer that's been released in 6th, and the ones in IA: Aeronautica. Those are all very reasonable.

Also, stop comparing the autocannons to killing GEQ and MEQ. Those are literally the worst targets for autocannons and shouldn't be used to justify how poor of a unit you think it is. Its a wrong comparison. Look at how many HP it can strip off of flyers, MCs, and vehicles. If you want a dedicated horde killer, don't give it autocannons. Give it heavy bolters.

Because, right now, you are really confusing the roles of everything here. Is this for anti-horde work, or anti- tank work? Is it meant for both?

Honestly though, it should be AV11, or like the Avenger and be AV12 only in the front and AV10 everywhere else.

Thanks.

I see why that's a bad comparison and why it shouldn't be used to demonstrate the effectiveness. I could change the armament to two autocannons and four heavy bolters. Two of the cannons on the Ork Bommer are much bigger anyway, so it would make sense for them to have a higher strength. Four autocannon shots would still be good against light vehicles, and it would have 12 heavy bolter shots, which would be better against infantry and ok against light vehicles.

For heavy vehicles it's designed to need the rockets.

It's also designed to need to be upgraded with some sort of armament, to be effective.

The armament change might justify a price increase.

I can also consider lowering the armor. Stormravens are 12 12 12. They're definitely not overpowered, as I've shot them down constantly.

Stormravens are also prohibitively expensive for the firepower they bring, and any units on board run the risk of dying in a horrible flaming wreck.

Again, I want to emphasize what I normally do in custom threads;

Less is more

Why do you want two autocannon and four heavy bolters? Not to mention the extra bombs and such. Look at every other flyer similar in size to your projected model. Its an asburdly absurd amount of guns you want to put on there.

A far more reasonable load out would be a single twin-linked autocannon and two heavy bolters. Then add in the options to buy stuff on the wings, like more heavy bolters or bombs and such.

Don't try and cram as many weapons on it as you want; it won't make it balanced, fair, fun for your opponent, and the model will just silly with so many guns and what not. Look at the vulture. Look at the thunderbolt. Look at the Avenger. These are the models that most closely resemble what you're trying to accomplish. They don't have half the amount of guns as you're proposing.

The Avenger, for example, comes with the nose mounted avenger cannon and a pair of lascannons on the wings (not TL). Then you have the option to buy one option from long list, including a pair of autocannons, 6 bombs, or a selection of two missiles. This is a purpose built/designed attack craft, much like your description. That's pretty much the most amount of weaponry I can see on an aircraft.

Alternatively, the thunderbolt has a pair of TL autocannons and a TL lascannon, all nestled in the nose of the aicraft. The only options it has are for wing wounted weaponry, like 6 bombs, or two selections of two missiles.

You're trying to fit in a lot of extra guns that really have no business being there.

You may not have the rules, but go look at the models on ForgeWorld for an idea of how a reasonably loaded out flyer would look.

Remember that a flier is only allowed to fire four weapons which includes dropping one bomb or firing two missiles, the ability to fire six weapons and fire missiles is way more then any vehicle, not including super heavies, should be allowed to do. Everything except the bombs are in the normal IG codex so there is no need to buy an IA book. S6 AP4 small blast is about the best you can get on a normally sized flier. Even super heavies that are heavy bombers don't go beyond S6 AP4 apocalyptic barrage. Go with the fliers Blacksail proposed it seems like a pretty good attack aircraft