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Glendale, AZ

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_good_word/2014/01/comma_usage_rules_are_unclear_could_the_punctuation_mark_die_out_completely.html

Spoiler tag for brevity.

Spoiler:
There’s no denying that commas are helpful little flecks of punctuation. They allow us to separate written clauses and do good work when especially numerous or complicated groups of things exist in a single sentence. But do we really need them?

That’s a trickier question.

In some ways commas are like ketchup and mustard. We’re glad those things exist. They surely make our french fries and hamburgers taste better. But we’d all survive without them. Some assert that the same is true of commas. Linguist and Columbia University professor John McWhorter suggests we “could take [the commas out of] a great deal of modern American texts and you would probably suffer so little loss of clarity that there could even be a case made for not using commas at all.”

That may sound crazy to folks who bristle at Oxford comma problems or enjoy pointing out that life without commas could result in lots of sentences like “let’s eat grandma.” But support for McWhorter’s contention isn’t tough to unearth. We needn’t look any further than our beloved cellphones and computer screens. We’re dropping commas more than ever because so much of our daily writing now consists of quick text messages and hastily typed emails. We’re also engaging in frequent IM discussions and drafting lots of sub-140-character tweets. Commas don’t thrive in those environs.

There is no similar confusion about when to place a question mark or a period.
Illustration by Lisa Larson-Walker
Here’s one recent example from social media: Last week Gmail crapped out for about 50 minutes. So people took to Twitter for the purpose of gabbing about it. And many folks in my feed did so without using commas. One New Yorker writer went with: “ok gmail is down we can just use twitter what could go wrong / back to work.” An editor at BuzzFeed tweeted “whoa whoa guys I can’t respond to all zero gmails at once.” Writer and biographer Rachel Syme joked about causing the problem: “I rubbed my genie lamp and wished for one of those Freedom programs that keeps you from email but I wished TOO BIG sorry guys sorry.” And writer Jen Doll capped off the Gfail afternoon with this: “I guess all those losers outside skiing or like at the movies or whatever missed out on this exciting adventure we just had.”

Similar comma-less dispatches crop up often in the text-messaging context. University of Michigan English professor and language historian Anne Curzan says that the decreasing use of commas in texts and tweets may be tied to efforts at making communications more stylistically fun and more similar to spoken conversation. She’s talked with her students about how they are repurposing punctuation in their day-to-day communications with friends. They tell her the period is being reimagined to signify seriousness or anger. And the ellipsis can be used to convey skepticism or sometimes unhappiness about something. But she says the comma doesn’t seem to be getting repurposed in texts. It’s being purged.

Curzan suspects that’s because commas have come to be associated with a more proper and polished approach to writing that doesn’t intuitively jibe with forums that aspire to be highly conversational. She says if you use commas in your text messages “in some ways what it signals is that you’re being more formal.”

It also could signal that you’re an old fogey. And it may get you made fun of by your kids. Consider these recent tweets that concern comma usage:




Swearing off commas altogether might be welcomed by the millions who don’t feel confident in their usage of the frequently perplexing mark. Commas are tough to master and easy to mess up. There is no universally accepted set of rules for their use. Even the most seemingly straightforward comma guidelines are burdened by exceptions and inconsistencies and caveats. So we often find ourselves devising our own subjective justifications for where to place them.

McWhorter offers the Oxford comma as an example: “Nobody has any reason for [using a comma after the penultimate item in a series] that is scientifically sensible and logical in the sense that we know how hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water.* So these things are just fashions and conventions. They change over time.” Curzan adds that whether someone is using commas properly in specific instances is “going to depend on what style guide you use.”

Many take their comma cues from William Strunk Jr.’s The Elements of Style. That nearly 100-year-old publication instructs sentence drafters to “enclose parenthetic expressions between commas” and to “place a comma before and or but introducing an independent clause.” It says writers should use a semicolon or a period instead of a comma in that case if there’s no and or but. McWhorter waves off any suggestion that such things are “the rules.” He points out that William Strunk “also probably wore spats. He probably also wore a detachable collar. We wouldn’t do any of those things now.”

McWhorter and Curzan both suggest that the lack of definitive comma guidelines results in a punctuation mark that is especially malleable and prone to use modifications. (There is no similar confusion about when to place a question mark or a period.) And it’s not surprising that we’re seeing commas being dropped more frequently in the social media and online context during an era when so much of our day-to-day writing attempts to mimic speech or exude a conversational tone. But what might this mean for more formal written pieces? Is it inevitable that 10 or 20 years from now we’ll be reading New York Times articles that don’t include any commas? Will college professors soon be grading compositions devoid of commas because students can’t effectively distinguish between the 400 texts they send each day and the essays they need to submit for class?

Signs point to no.

(Continued from Page 1)
Younger students may experience greater difficulty in separating informal writing from the more formal. But as we get older we become better equipped to develop and maintain those boundaries. Neither Curzan nor McWhorter have noticed their current students dropping commas from formal writing assignments more often than those in the past. And a recently published study examining texting’s impact on college-level writing concluded that “university students recognise the different requirements of different recipients and modalities when considering textism use and that students are able to avoid textism use in exams despite media reports to the contrary.” (Textism is their word for the language of texting.)

That finding makes perfect sense to McWhorter. He says that Americans have become accustomed to an English language that doesn’t vary widely by region or over time. So we may expect that people will struggle to use two different forms of the same language. “There’s this sense that if there’s something colloquial and spontaneous and non-standard the proper question to ask is what’s going to happen to the standard [form].” He adds that we shouldn’t be surprised when someone who sends hundreds of texts each day is able to “write a paper about Walt Whitman that weekend and knows where to put their commas.” And that dual approach to comma usage may be “exactly the way it’s going to stay.” In other words: One realm doesn’t have to engulf the other just because they are different.

But some of the most talented and engaging young writers are pushing those boundaries on purpose. Here are a few sentences that appear near the end of a brutally honest and introspective Brooklyn Magazine essay that Edith Zimmerman recently wrote about lifestyle changes: “Although I really want to tell you about this white noise machine I just got!!!!!!!!!!! No but it seriously has changed my life!!! hahahah I don’t even know if I’m joking or not!!! I mean I am but also it really has changed my life.” Writer Mary H.K. Choi recently published a piece in the Awl on SoulCycle that was drafted to be highly conversational. It is evocative of the sort of thing one might read on Facebook. Choi uses commas in places. But it’s immediately clear when reading the essay that there’s something atypical about its form and style. She writes at one point: “It’s gross but I don’t care because I need it and I love it (ha ha so gross).” Then later in the piece: “The main things to remember is hand placement on the handlebars and each class includes a series of push ups on the bars but they’re the wussiest of all wuss-ass push-ups since it’s a tiny movement.”

Those sentences do not represent Choi forgetting she’s not on social media. The piece is different and conversational and fun. It may not be to everyone’s taste. And it’s unlikely that you’d find something like it in Slate. But I wouldn’t say it’s confusing. And you don’t really miss the commas.

Three of 13 commenters on the piece nonetheless went off on Choi. One asked if the writer was 12. Another wrote: “Did a very long facebook post somehow get published as an article. PROTIP when you write like this you sound ridiculous. Ha ha. Sorreee. Happy New Year!”

Top Comment

"Swearing off commas altogether might be welcomed by the millions who don’t feel confident in their usage of the frequently perplexing mark." And those millions need not bother applying for a job from me, ever. More...

-FarmerTom2
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The criticisms seem more tied to style preferences than concerns about a lack of clarity. But they lead to an interesting question: What if that style became the norm in all writing environments and we got rid of commas altogether? Curzan notes that the result would not be without its associated challenges: “We know there would be problems. Lists need commas. Lots of clauses in a row benefit from commas.” That is undeniably true. But she adds that we’re pretty creative and capable when it comes to dealing with such language issues. It’s possible that we’d simply come up with some other way to avoid confusion in those cases. Problem solved. Sort of.

Getting rid of commas wouldn’t sit well with those who prefer traditional methods of doing things and aesthetic consistency over time. It wouldn’t be your cup of tea if you hate socks that don’t match or noticed before right now that this piece has yet to include a single comma.

“Let’s say everybody wore their socks mismatched,” posits McWhorter. “Well, you know, it wouldn’t look great, to the extent that we look at anybody’s feet anyway. But it would be very hard to say that it was creating any kind of problem. Now, of course, a certain smarty-pants kind of person could come up with some situation where somebody’s mismatched socks really did create some sort of social misunderstanding. And it would be just that one thing. Really, the world would keep spinning. And I think it’s the same thing with commas.”

Correction, Jan. 29, 2014: Due to an editing error, this article originally misstated that the Oxford comma comes after the last item in a series. It comes after the penultimate item.

Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
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So, the thrust of this guy's case against commas, if I am following is:

1. It's HAARRRDD
2. You look like a dork

Slow clap, sir. I actually am a writer/editor and this is so unbelievably full of crap that I don't whether to laugh or cry.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
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If we want to talk about the death of a punctuation mark we're better off talking about of our old friend; the semi-colon.

   
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on the forum. Obviously

 LordofHats wrote:
If we want to talk about the death of a punctuation mark we're better off talking about of our old friend; the semi-colon.


I, for one, use the semi-colon quite often. Except now; there is no reason to do so.
Whether or not I use it properly is a different matter

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I; love; using; semi-colons;

They; make; me; metaphorically; wet;

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

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I say we make the semi-colon the new hashtag; it can't possibly be any worse than that.

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http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon

 Ouze wrote:

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Shred City.

Usage of punctuation and proper syntax is often the deciding factor in whether or not I spend time talking to anyone in written form, be it texts or e-mails.

Notice I didn't say 'correct usage', because not everyone has that sort of ability with the written word and I'm certainly not a grammar psycho. I believe even the most basically literate folks have the ability to write a coherent sentence, and if they can't pump one out, they ought to be ignored until they pass grade 2 English or put effort in to constructing one.
   
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 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
Usage of punctuation and proper syntax is often the deciding factor in whether or not I spend time talking to anyone in written form, be it texts or e-mails.

Notice I didn't say 'correct usage', because not everyone has that sort of ability with the written word and I'm certainly not a grammar psycho. I believe even the most basically literate folks have the ability to write a coherent sentence, and if they can't pump one out, they ought to be ignored until they pass grade 2 English or put effort in to constructing one.


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Sorry, wargaming forum. Couldn't resist

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Despite how little I give a gak about grammar commas are useful in the sense that there placement can change what word/phrase is being emphasized in the sentence, therefore changing the tone and tension of the sentence.
   
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I couldn't live without commas, not only because they are fun, but also because they can make a sentence go on for ever, and that can only be a good thing, especially in this age of grammatical suicide on the likes of Facebook, Twitter, and all those other sites, where one's message can lose clarity as it ends up being brutally truncated, decapitated and obliterated by arbitrary, often self-enforced, and frankly nonsensical character limits, which only serve to constrain and otherwise place limitations on one's creative freedom, the ability to express one's self in a clear, extended and logical way, and achieve feats of sentence-lengthening that would be otherwise impossible.

 
   
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I think that article shows exactly why you need commas. It reads so horribly, lots and lots of painfully short sentences and convoluted writing to make the point. I don't know if it is my dyslexia, but the lack of flow makes it painful to read.

I wonder how many times that had to be rewritten to get it make sense without commas.

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 curran12 wrote:
So, the thrust of this guy's case against commas, if I am following is:

1. It's HAARRRDD
2. You look like a dork

Slow clap, sir. I actually am a writer/editor and this is so unbelievably full of crap that I don't whether to laugh or cry.


Its bad when the advocate's argument itself hurts my eyes to try to read, such (SEE MY COMMA YOU ER!) that I lost interest less than a third of the way through the article.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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I'm a huge fan of the comma, the semicolon, and specifically on dakka; the strikethrough tag (in small doses).

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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I like commas.

Except when, people use them in, the wrong place.

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 curran12 wrote:
So, the thrust of this guy's case against commas, if I am following is:

1. It's HAARRRDD
2. You look like a dork

Slow clap, sir. I actually am a writer/editor and this is so unbelievably full of crap that I don't whether to laugh or cry.


Well hello, fellow professional. I'm an ad copywriter. So are you for or against the serial comma? I'm not trying to start something with you -- I'm just curious.

For those of you not in the field, just know that some debates over serial comma usage have resulted in bloodshed.

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 gorgon wrote:
For those of you not in the field, just know that some debates over serial comma usage have resulted in bloodshed.


Damnit I will, cut you.

(Now you don't know whether I used the comma incorrectly or whether I'm just Captain, Kirk, of the, star, ship, Enter, prise).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 20:53:56


Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

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WA, USA

 gorgon wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
So, the thrust of this guy's case against commas, if I am following is:

1. It's HAARRRDD
2. You look like a dork

Slow clap, sir. I actually am a writer/editor and this is so unbelievably full of crap that I don't whether to laugh or cry.


Well hello, fellow professional. I'm an ad copywriter. So are you for or against the serial comma? I'm not trying to start something with you -- I'm just curious.

For those of you not in the field, just know that some debates over serial comma usage have resulted in bloodshed.


I actually have grown up not using it (though I had to for elementary school), but this is largely attributed to my upbringing. My mom was a copy editor for a newspaper, so I had 'save space' and 'be concise' hammered into my from a young age and because of that, the serial comma quickly went away for me.

But it is a thorny issue. A few years ago, I went to a class for technical editing and we spent about 25 minutes debating it.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 curran12 wrote:
But it is a thorny issue. A few years ago, I went to a class for technical editing and we spent about 25 minutes debating it.


Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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WA, USA

 Ouze wrote:


Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.


Annnnnnnd sigged.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
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UK

 Ouze wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
But it is a thorny issue. A few years ago, I went to a class for technical editing and we spent about 25 minutes debating it.


Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.


He just snapped one of the middle two prongs off a fork so the murder-weapon would sound cooler.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
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WA, USA

 Avatar 720 wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
But it is a thorny issue. A few years ago, I went to a class for technical editing and we spent about 25 minutes debating it.


Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.


He just snapped one of the middle two prongs off a fork so the murder-weapon would sound cooler.


Plus I could scream "BOW BEFORE POSEIDON, LORD OF THE SEA!"

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

And then people would debate your usage of the comma in that command.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Commas are important.

I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse.

I helped my uncle Jack off a horse.

Commas are the difference between a helping hand and, well, a helping hand...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 21:06:10


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WA, USA

 Avatar 720 wrote:
And then people would debate your usage of the comma in that command.


But I also still had the trident, so the debate wrapped up quickly.

But I'm also exalting the hell out of that post.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
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Comma rules are only difficult for the badly educated.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Saratoga Springs, NY

 LordofHats wrote:
If we want to talk about the death of a punctuation mark we're better off talking about of our old friend; the semi-colon.


Indeed. I have actually found myself using the "use a semicolon to make seperations of phrases that contain commas" rule multiple times. I'm not sure if that says good or bad things about my writing...I'm not sure I want to know.

For instance, "the commander scanned the checklist: 10 suits of standard infantry armor, not that it would do them much good; one armored fighting vehicle, which would break down within 24 hours; and, of course, 20 days worth of inedible field rations."

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Southeastern PA, USA

 curran12 wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
So, the thrust of this guy's case against commas, if I am following is:

1. It's HAARRRDD
2. You look like a dork

Slow clap, sir. I actually am a writer/editor and this is so unbelievably full of crap that I don't whether to laugh or cry.


Well hello, fellow professional. I'm an ad copywriter. So are you for or against the serial comma? I'm not trying to start something with you -- I'm just curious.

For those of you not in the field, just know that some debates over serial comma usage have resulted in bloodshed.


I actually have grown up not using it (though I had to for elementary school), but this is largely attributed to my upbringing. My mom was a copy editor for a newspaper, so I had 'save space' and 'be concise' hammered into my from a young age and because of that, the serial comma quickly went away for me.

But it is a thorny issue. A few years ago, I went to a class for technical editing and we spent about 25 minutes debating it.


I actually don't have a strong opinion. Advocates say the serial comma can reduce ambiguity, but you can easily come up with examples where it adds ambiguity. I don't really think there's AN answer. It's mostly personal preference, which is why those debates can ESCALATE QUICKLY. (Where I got the hand grenade, I dunno.)

Mostly I write however the job demands. In my personal life I just roll with whatever I feel like at that moment. It helps that I'm a bit of a style chameleon, having used AP, WSJ, APA, AMA and a couple proprietary styles during my schooling and career. (There, see! I'm in a "no serial comma" mood!)

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

, , , , , chameleon.

They come and go. They come and go-o-o-o.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 21:33:10


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

Have an exalt for that one.

My AT Gallery
My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
 
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