<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Which Chapter is more powerful?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256277.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256311.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256311.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256427.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256427.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Second after them, with their sheer numbers of Marines, are the Black Templars.

The only edge the Dark Angels would have would be if you gave them access to their close knit group of successors. If not, the Black Templars win that fight.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256456.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Out of all the options, see Vet Sarge's answer. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256488.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256488.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256495.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Also the BT have good relationships with other Imperial Organisations such as the Eccelisarchy and Inquisition compared to the Dark Angels. The Guard and the Mechanicus seem to work well with them.

No contest really IMO ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256506.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Due to the size and strength of Ultramar's navy and PDF, as well as their influence across an entire segmentum, the Ultramarines are the most powerful chapter.

Second after them, with their sheer numbers of Marines, are the Black Templars.

The only edge the Dark Angels would have would be if you gave them access to their close knit group of successors. If not, the Black Templars win that fight.


And on that, I'd give them the win, because it's strongly suggested throughout DA reference, that the successors are basically the chapter, playing nice and following the whole 'break up the legions' following the HH but ready to combine to form devastator at a moment's notice if the fallen are mentioned accidentally at a diner party or if anything threatens them.

So, Black Templars, the red headed stepchild chapter, shows up shrieking about the DA being filthy, shady and smelling of chaos and that they are going to meet them after school and give them a right good kicking... and DA shows up after school, with all it's chumrade chapters, forms into it's Legion of old, and beats the BTs into the ground...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
The Guard and the Mechanicus seem to work well with them.


How do you get that? The church I'll give you for sure, but the 'heretical' Mechanicus and the 'morally questionable' Guard? I don't see either working for the Templars, Especially not as call-ins.

And I was fairly certain the IFs regarded them as a bit loopy, hence the separation in the first place? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256509.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? DA) to the DA.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256537.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
I tend to look at BL novels such as Helsreach for Black Templars and in that they fight well alongside both and honour previous engagments / units that fought alongside them.

Like many Astartes Chapters, they form pacts with such units and organistations. If the BT have the Church on their side (and quite possibily the Inquisition) then why wouldn;t the Guard aid them aginst a "renegade" Chapter which is what those organisations would likely call the Dark Angels.

The Mechanicus are fairly pragmatic and may well honour pacts and I would think that they be keen to take any arcane tech from the Dark Angels if they can during the war.

The IF might regard them as "different" long ago but they now a very successful Successor Chapter - something to be proud of I think. I can't see them standing by if theya re attacked?

I am not sure actually who in the Imperium would join the Dark Angels against the Black Templars except successor Chapters?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256549.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? Granted they aren't as tight knit group like the Dark Angels, but there are potentially alot more even if only of a fraction respond.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256571.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? all of them, obviously, but when 65% or so of all Chapters are Ultramarines, how many do they need?

People often get bent out of shape over Mat Ward's fluff, but when you really think about the 40K universe, the fact that the Ultramarines account for nearly 2/3rds of all Space Marines, genetically, that means there is only about 35% to spread between the other 7 loyal sources of gene seed. (since there are no Space Wolf successors). You have to figure the Blood Angels get less play because of the Rage, and the Salamanders seem to just get no play either (obviously because they're black. ). So that means no other chapter likely accounts for more than 6 or 7 % of all Space Marines. There are literally ten times more Ultramarines successors than the next largest First Founding chapter.

The Imperium doesn't screw around, lol. It's one of the things that makes fan-fiction ideas like female Marines, or traitor geneseed chapters so silly. The Imperium has a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" policy. Think about the Cursed Founding. It took 5,000 years for the Imperium to work up the guts to try to fix/improve the Space Marines, and it failed so hard, they never tried it again.

When in doubt, make more Ultramarines, lol.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256687.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256703.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Technically, it's fluctuated from 60% to 2/3rds across the years and sources, but C:SM6E says "over two thirds".


Remember, the "500 Worlds" is an invention of Dan Abnett and the Black Library, and has no bearing on the 40K fluff which precedes much of it by like 20 years. The 2/3rds goes back at least to Codex: Ultramarines, which is the oldest detailed reference to the modern idea of the Foundings that I'm aware of.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256786.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful?
Of course, the Minotaurs have the backing of the High Lords of Terra. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256797.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The fluff seems to suggest the Ultramarines hold a lot of sway over their successors. Not all of them, obviously, but when 65% or so of all Chapters are Ultramarines, how many do they need?

People often get bent out of shape over Mat Ward's fluff, but when you really think about the 40K universe, the fact that the Ultramarines account for nearly 2/3rds of all Space Marines, genetically, that means there is only about 35% to spread between the other 7 loyal sources of gene seed. (since there are no Space Wolf successors). You have to figure the Blood Angels get less play because of the Rage, and the Salamanders seem to just get no play either (obviously because they're black. ). So that means no other chapter likely accounts for more than 6 or 7 % of all Space Marines. There are literally ten times more Ultramarines successors than the next largest First Founding chapter.

The Imperium doesn't screw around, lol. It's one of the things that makes fan-fiction ideas like female Marines, or traitor geneseed chapters so silly. The Imperium has a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" policy. Think about the Cursed Founding. It took 5,000 years for the Imperium to work up the guts to try to fix/improve the Space Marines, and it failed so hard, they never tried it again.

When in doubt, make more Ultramarines, lol.


What the hell? This is a debate between BTs and DAs, don't shove Smurfs into this.

Personally, I think that engaging (or rather attempting to engage) Deathwing Terminators into close combat is a silly idea. I'd root for the Dark Angels.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256887.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
SarisKhan wrote:
What the hell? This is a debate between BTs and DAs, don't shove Smurfs into this.
The question was asked. Refrain from giving me instructions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256922.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? Now.

Anyway, what does the current fluff indicate of the Black Templars' numbers?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256953.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256963.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6256963.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? BT have no excuse for being overstrength - the only reason they get away with it is the success of the crusade fleets and the fact they are spread out. The DA and successors on the other hand are at least technically separate Chapters. Collecting all they have will see the templars condemned by the High Lords and every right-thinking Son of Dorn. The DA doing the same will wake suspicion but with the right explanation and a promise of breaking up when the job is done they're in the clear.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257107.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Ahhh yes, the rules. How could I have forgotten?


What would your SPIRITUAL LIEGE say about that, eh? Oh, wait, he's locked in stasis at the instant of death... Whoops ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257116.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257125.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:
Except the Inquisiton have been noted as looking at the Black Templars and are not worried as they have an flawess record - Unlike the Dark Angels who have been to turn on and/or abandon Imperial forces.




Yeah... Now the support of the church and especially the inquisition is definitely on the BT side...

And then all the other chapters get wind of the Inquisition backing the boys in black...

And then you have every other chapter moving in in support of the Dark Angels. Hell the Ultramarines and the imperial navy fired on Dorn's bunch for not adhering to the Codex. The inquisition has pissed off a lot of Astartes over the years.

I think even the Space Wolves would support the Dark Angels over the Inquisition, church and BTs.

So, let's put the Ultramarines and their successors, most other founding chapters and their successors in there... And perhaps even the Wolves, for shiz n giggles, riding in at the last minute with 'yeah, I still don't like you, but we are brothers after all' and other epic cheese...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257141.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?

The Black Templars have forged alliances where the Dark
Angels have broken promises.................

Most Astartes would try to avoid a war between their brothers see the Badab conflict but there are others who will see it is an Opportunity to settle old Scores.

Depends who is seen be on the side of the Imperium............]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257168.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? inq. tends to take a look the other way ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257190.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Except the Inquisiton have been noted as looking at the Black Templars and are not worried as they have an flawess record - Unlike the Dark Angels who have been to turn on and/or abandon Imperial forces.




Yeah... Now the support of the church and especially the inquisition is definitely on the BT side...

And then all the other chapters get wind of the Inquisition backing the boys in black...

And then you have every other chapter moving in in support of the Dark Angels. Hell the Ultramarines and the imperial navy fired on Dorn's bunch for not adhering to the Codex. The inquisition has pissed off a lot of Astartes over the years.

I think even the Space Wolves would support the Dark Angels over the Inquisition, church and BTs.

So, let's put the Ultramarines and their successors, most other founding chapters and their successors in there... And perhaps even the Wolves, for shiz n giggles, riding in at the last minute with 'yeah, I still don't like you, but we are brothers after all' and other epic cheese...



Most Chapters wouldn't support either, but far fewer would support the DA than the BT, especially considering the former's suspicious and untrustworthy behaviour, compared to the latter's stellar track record for expanding and reclaiming Imperial holdings, assisting anyone fighting the enemies of the Emperor and being on an eternal crusade for 10000 years. The only people I can see coming to the DA's aid is the SW, but they're really not going to change much considering what's pitted against them. I don't see why the Ultras would help either, but if they were to help anyone it would probably be the Black Templars, as Idoubt they'd risk their power supporting an underdog. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257193.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 raiden wrote:
The dark angels work against the forces of chaos are regarded highly and near perfect in the eyes of the inquisition. Its one of the big reasons they get left alone. sure they may leave a battle area, but when they say "we stopped chaos doing blank" the inq. tends to take a look the other way


Is that in the new Codex - as previously they have always been a bit suspect? Difficult to prove anything............... was a cool plot device in a 40k rpg I ran]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257197.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257253.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Thanks to the Inner Circle, all successor chapters are so close to the First Founding chapter that it can be considered a Legion.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257615.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257863.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257863.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Omegus wrote:
Out of the two options, Angels. More resources, more manpower (if allowed to mobilize), more ancient toys and gadgets.

Out of all the options, see Vet Sarge's answer.


Technically actually, the Grey Knights are a space marine chapter and the most powerful, at least in combat. In naval battles, they bring the Inquisition with them. After them would probably be the survivors of the Fire Hawks, the Legion of the Damned, simply for their nigh invincible nature and possible possession of a ghost Fortress Monastery.

However, as for the 'vanilla' Space Marine Chapters that aren't supernatural in nature, then the Ultramarines would come in for their possession of a massive fleet and access to more Chapters ever-willing to rally to their aid. Out of the poll though, likely the Black Templars unless the Dark Angels pull a ridiculous trick out of their hat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257884.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? DA codex really change them into a galaxy spanning Super Chapter ? I have not got this one but this seems to be the imnplication?

Massive change to the fluff I feel if thats the case.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257958.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6257958.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:
Did the new DA codex really change them into a galaxy spanning Super Chapter ? I have not got this one but this seems to be the imnplication?

Massive change to the fluff I feel if thats the case.



they still have a "main" sector where the DA themselves usually operate. BUT, the DA chapter and all there successor chapters masters/head honchos get together every so often to report goings ons and receive orders from Azreal and others of the inner circle. as far as it goes, they are a legion, but split up into chapters. If you count all of their successors, then yes, they pretty much operate through the IoM known galaxy (and sometimes outside of, if the chase of a fallen leads to that.) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258008.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Do they have any extra ways to communicate as the Imperium is a big place and even Astrotelepathy has its limits in terms of speed and realiability?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258014.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:
Thanks but how many Successor Chapters do they have - to get to Legion size they need dozens - which I guess is not impossible for a First Founding Chapter....

Do they have any extra ways to communicate as the Imperium is a big place and even Astrotelepathy has its limits in terms of speed and realiability?


They have at least 7-10 I think, and I am sure there are others that are not named. As for communication, outside of the head peoples meeting together there is only a bit as far as I can tell. just updates. Most of the orders are given (due to privacy and secrecy insurance) at these meetings. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258026.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258026.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258041.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258041.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258102.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Every Codex Chapter (especially the Imperial Fists) would have to take measures against them or piss on the Codex along with the templars. Diverting geneseed that should have rightfully been sent to Mars - for ten thousand years no less - is also many orders of magnitude above what Huron Lufgt kept from them. The High Lords cannot let that slide, and the punishment would have to be extreme so every marine sees that there are limits to their autonomy. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258438.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:
Thanks but how many Successor Chapters do they have - to get to Legion size they need dozens - which I guess is not impossible for a First Founding Chapter....

Do they have any extra ways to communicate as the Imperium is a big place and even Astrotelepathy has its limits in terms of speed and realiability?

They are at about 8 named, however keep in mind a few things, the Imperial Fists were basically on Terra's frontlines during the Heresy 24/7, The Dark Angels on the other hand, apart from the Thramas Crusade and Caliban (no more than 2 companies IIRC), saw no significant amount of casualties (similar to the SW and UM) which means when they split into chapters, they would have been able split into many, many, unnamed successors (even having only 10 000 marines left would be 10 whole chapters and there is no-way they were mauled that badly, so things start looking pretty bad for the Templars.

Now it is true, that the Templars would likely have support from the Ecchlesiarchy, however, what you need to remember is that the DA were the only chapter to ever petition the High Lords specifically to create a new chapter and have said request granted, which shows great political favourtism from the Imperium's ruling body, which most likely means significant Guard and Naval Support, meaning that they would likely crush the BT through sheer weight of numbers as well as having an anti-marine specialist company per chapter (DW and their equivalents) as well as the ability to supply them ALL with terminator armour, the fact they can do that and supply a new chapter upon its creation, implies a signifiacant manfucatoring capability, although whether this comes from Mars or their own forges is unknown.

And don't forget that we have an actual account of Dark Angels and BT fighting (The Ophidium Gulf IIRC), however it was a naval engagement with a significant numbers advantage for the DA so we shouldn't put too much stock in it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258503.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258545.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? HH era Legion with all their Successors taking orders from Azreal and operating together regularly and efficiently. The Black Templars may be big but they are not a full legion as the DA realistically are]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258737.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? DA successor chapter is in on the secret. To my knowledge only 4 of the 9 named successors are Inner Circle bros.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258842.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Banzaimash wrote:
One must remember that not every DA successor chapter is in on the secret. To my knowledge only 4 of the 9 named successors are Inner Circle bros.

8 of the 9 are the unforgiven, all DA second founding are the Unforgiven.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258861.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Johnson101 wrote:
Dark Angles, they are basically a HH era Legion with all their Successors taking orders from Azreal and operating together regularly and efficiently. The Black Templars may be big but they are not a full legion as the DA realistically are


Why do people keep calling them a Legion - a Legion had around 100,000 Marines - the Dark Angels (+ successors) and the Black Templars have a 10th of that - they are just much larger than normal. It sounds like the DA have more potential coherency - although again L/R comms issues means this is limited.

re the DA and the BT fighting- well plenty of Chapters have done that - Including the Space Wolves and DA.

And to repeat myself, the templars can't call in all their crusades no matter how sterling their record. Not only would it be revealed that they grossly overstepped the Codex limits - they must also have sent in too little in geneseed tithe for ten thousand years. Tax evasion is a capital crime. Every Codex Chapter (especially the Imperial Fists) would have to take measures against them or piss on the Codex along with the templars. Diverting geneseed that should have rightfully been sent to Mars - for ten thousand years no less - is also many orders of magnitude above what Huron Lufgt kept from them. The High Lords cannot let that slide, and the punishment would have to be extreme so every marine sees that there are limits to their autonomy


Its 40k adherence to the Codex varies - the Space Wolves flout it, other Chapters such as the Iron Hands and Salamnders bend it cosndierably be being over strength in terms of numbers.

I don't know anywhere wherre it is said that the BT don't pay their tithe - it is however said that the Inquisiiton knows about their strength but considers them too loyal to be a problem - unlike the Dark Angels. The Imperial Fists and their successor Chatpers are in regular contact with the BT and will have a good idea of their strength...............and there are "dozens of Space Marine Chapters formed from the Fists - according to the SM codex more than any other Chapter except the Ultramarines.

They form (again in the SM Codex) a "tightly knit brotherhood" of Chapters.

For whatever reason (does it say in the Codex) the High Lords may have accedded to the DA request for a new Chapter - but the Fists and others don't need to bribe and beg them for this honour- they have it done anyway as they are considerable loyal and trustworthy in a way the DA may not be........

Anyway its all a bit moot as there needs to be a very good reason why the two would go to war..........and the reason will dictate how the other Imperial Forces may react as well as the politics of the situation - same as the Badab war.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258912.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258912.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? BT vs. DA clash I am aware of, Dark Angels came out top

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258927.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Be good fun if there was a conflict and the Legion of the Damned turned up as the instriuments of the Emperors Will and showed the Dark Angels who was boss ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6258943.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

How do you get that? The church I'll give you for sure, but the 'heretical' Mechanicus and the 'morally questionable' Guard? I don't see either working for the Templars, Especially not as call-ins.


I believe the AdMech and IG reference is from all three of them working together in the 'Of Mars' books.

Haven't read Lords of Mars yet, but Priests of Mars I enjoyed very much. I don't know if their dynamic is vastly expanded on in the second book, but in the first they seemed indifferent toward one another and really only had one friendly duel, some healthy rivalry and friendly tell-offs here and there. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259004.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful?
And I know it has been said before but on the whole, Templar's are a helluva lot more trustworthy than the DA what with the whole upping and leaving Imperial forces for no apparent reason. That and making the Ophidium Gulf "disappear"

And moreover, exactly how many of these successor chapters would actually come back because of relations with the DA? Isn't it only 8-10 that are explicitly stated that would return?

But then again, I don't think many chapters at all would help the Templars. IF & CF maybe but not many others. Everyone would most likely leave it alone.

And then how is this struggle playing out? Is it a "Everyone meets in System X and fights to the death on planet Y whilst the fleets have a punch up in orbit around Planet Z" deal or is it in the actual universe? Because the latter would probably take a few centuries before anyone realised what was actually happening.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259020.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259020.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
(*) The Chaplain does threaten the deputy head of the Ttian Legion in her own Imperator Titan at one point ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259022.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:
 da001 wrote:
Dark Angels for me.

Thanks to the Inner Circle, all successor chapters are so close to the First Founding chapter that it can be considered a Legion.
So do they have 50-100 "minion" Successor Chapters as Legions tended to have 50-100,000 Marines?

Yes.

There are roughly 1000 Chapters. That´s 1.000.000 marines.

The Codex: Space Marines says that over half the current chapters descend from Ultramarines. For the sake of having a debate let´s assume that "more than the half " means 58-79%. That gives us 210-420 chapters without Guilliman´s seed. Wolves have none. Divide by 7 and you would get an educated estimation of the number of Chapters born from the Lion´s seed: 30 to 60 chapters. That´s 30000 - 60000 marines.

So yes, they can be considered a Legion. A small one, but 30-60 times bigger than the average Chapter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Johnson101 wrote:
Dark Angles, they are basically a HH era Legion with all their Successors taking orders from Azreal and operating together regularly and efficiently. The Black Templars may be big but they are not a full legion as the DA realistically are


Why do people keep calling them a Legion - a Legion had around 100,000 Marines - the Dark Angels (+ successors) and the Black Templars have a 10th of that -

100000 / 10 = 10000 marines.
10000 / 100 = 10 chapters.

10 chapters? Really? You think the First Legion got 10 Chapters out of one thousand? They got the 1%!!?? Wow! That´s absolutely amazing. Do you have any source of this? Any explanation?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259129.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful?
 The Crusader wrote:

And moreover, exactly how many of these successor chapters would actually come back because of relations with the DA? Isn't it only 8-10 that are explicitly stated that would return?

The unforgiven as a whole are who would return and are hinted at being organised like the "legions of old". The unforgiven are the DA proper and all their second founding chapters. Which number 9, here's the catch, that's just the named ones and since the DA took minimal casualties during the Heresy its quite possible that there is 20+ such chapters that aren't named and then there are likely chapters from later foundings that would join in out of loyalty for their founders. So the odds are quite stacked against the Templars.

Not to mention The Rock can level fleets single handedly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259140.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 da001 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 da001 wrote:
Dark Angels for me.

Thanks to the Inner Circle, all successor chapters are so close to the First Founding chapter that it can be considered a Legion.
So do they have 50-100 "minion" Successor Chapters as Legions tended to have 50-100,000 Marines?

Yes.

There are roughly 1000 Chapters. That´s 1.000.000 marines.

The Codex: Space Marines says that over half the current chapters descend from Ultramarines. For the sake of having a debate let´s assume that "more than the half " means 58-79%. That gives us 210-420 chapters without Guilliman´s seed. Wolves have none. Divide by 7 and you would get an educated estimation of the number of Chapters born from the Lion´s seed: 30 to 60 chapters. That´s 30000 - 60000 marines.

So yes, they can be considered a Legion. A small one, but 30-60 times bigger than the average Chapter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Johnson101 wrote:
Dark Angles, they are basically a HH era Legion with all their Successors taking orders from Azreal and operating together regularly and efficiently. The Black Templars may be big but they are not a full legion as the DA realistically are


Why do people keep calling them a Legion - a Legion had around 100,000 Marines - the Dark Angels (+ successors) and the Black Templars have a 10th of that -

100000 / 10 = 10000 marines.
10000 / 100 = 10 chapters.

10 chapters? Really? You think the First Legion got 10 Chapters out of one thousand? They got the 1%!!?? Wow! That´s absolutely amazing. Do you have any source of this? Any explanation?


As I said I dont have the current DA Codex - however going by the various posts above there are 8-10 Unforgven Chapters of each about 1000 Marines - thats the source / explanation. (simple maths)The posts above say that the Unforgiven operate on Azreals instructions but thats it - so about 10,000 Marines - or is there more info in the Codex that has not been shared?

If we are talking sources / explanation where is the source for your actual numbers of 30-60 successor Chapters - is this written down anywhere in the fluff?

Again as said the later foundings are not even - The Ultramarines are the bulk of them, then the Imperial Fists (as noted in the current SM codex p47) then the others.......]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259146.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? BT ship without trace. Not to mention deathwing size is unknown, and the ravenwing can prevent teleports out.

It would definately be a close run engagement, but when your base is a mobile planetoid, and you have no qualms about warping it in within a gravity well....

Plus, by association, BT lack librarians which DA excel at. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259148.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
The other points are very valid However the BT progenitor Chapter has its own warp capable Fortress Monestry ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259153.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? TO THE OPHIDIUM GULF AND DEMANDS THOSE RESPONSIBLE TO BE HANDED OVER TO THE BT. THE DA OBVIOUSLY REFUSE AND THE CONFLICT ENSUES. WE CAN ASSUME BT CALL IN ALL THEIR FLEETS AND TROOPS AVAILABLE (c.10000 MARINES). THE CONFLICT THEN ENSUES IN SOME FAR FLUNG PART OF THE GALAXY WHERE NO ONE ELSE IS, SO NO ALLIES, NO INQUISITION, JUST CHAPTER VERSUS CHAPTER. EFFECTIVELY, WHOEVER WINS WILL WRITE THE HISTORY BOOKS.

With respect to the incident of the Ophidium Gulf, the BT had only ONE ship versus a whole FLEET of the DA. on top of this they were no doubt taken by surprise, as they'd already handed over the Fallen and proceeded on their way, and probably didn't expect such treachery from their battle brothers in the DA.

The Rock is indeed a formidable chapter base, but then it's going toe to toe with the entire BT fleet, which must be one of the largest considering they're the biggest chapter and entirely spacefaring. Multiple Exterminatus's on the Rock would probably end it, regardless of its shields and other defences.

Helbrecht must also be taken into consideration. Probably the most capable naval commander the Imperium has to offer, he's highly skilled at using a fleet the size of his to great effect. Notably above Armageddon, he engaged with the Ork asteroid ships (Roks. Albeit they're not as well defended as the Rock, Helbrecht had less ships. Scale this up to the whole fleet vs the Rock and its probably quite close) and Space Hulks, and so I'm pretty sure he's got the experience needed to take on the Rock.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259176.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:

If we are talking sources / explanation where is the source for your actual numbers of 30-60 successor Chapters - is this written down anywhere in the fluff?
Are you asking me which is the source for the "roughly 1000 chapters"? The rest is simple maths.

There are 9 known descendants from the Dark Angels. That doesn´t mean that there are 9 chapters and no more. We know the Ultramarines are the largest group, but you are assuming that the Dark Angels´ descendants are the 1% of the chapters. Sorry, but it is too much. You are making a groundbreaking assumption without any kind of reasoning behind.

There are about 30 known descendants from the Ultramarines. Do you really believe that means that there are 30 chapters and no more?


Again as said the later foundings are not even - The Ultramarines are the bulk of them, then the Imperial Fists (as noted in the current SM codex p47) then the others.......

Didn´t know that. That changes things... but not to the point of accepting that only the 1% of the chapters descend from the Lion. How many for the rest then?

I just counted up the number of known descendants from Lexicanum. I am adding +1 because the original is also a descendant:
Ultramarines: 30
Fists: 22 (23, in Lexicanum, but Soul Drinkers are listed as such)
Dark Angels: 9
Blood Angels: 20
White Scars: 10
Salamanders: 0. They have no known successors.
Space Wolves: 0. They have no known successors.
Raven Guard: 14.
Iron Hands: 6.
TOTAL: 111.

Dark Angels proportion: 8,1%
Estimated number of Dark Angels marines (including descendants): 81000.
They are, to all purposes, a Legion.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259180.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
That is apparently the ones that form the mini-Legion?

What does it say in the Codex about this as its all new fluff to me? Is it any and all Chapters descended from the DA or just the 2nd Founding?

Re Number of Successors - the fluff is a bit maliable p the new Codex says that some may be descended from the Salamanders = Black Dragons, Storm Giants for example

if its just BT versus DA I think the DA win as they are sneakier - but I don't think the BT would be so isolated ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259188.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:
If we are talking sources / explanation where is the source for your actual numbers of 30-60 successor Chapters - is this written down anywhere in the fluff?

The only sources you need are the size of the DA legion at the start of the Heresy and the fact that the codex mandated chapters of 1000 the , knowing that they got relatively unscathed by the Heresy, taking part only in the Thramas crusade in terms of major conflicts. Factoring in Luther's betrayal a casualty rate of 35% seems appropriate. Not knowing their size pre-heresy, I'll be conservative at 65 000 marines.
Minus the 35% leaves 42250 marines which is over 42 successor chapters just for the second founding.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259189.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Banzaimash wrote:
NOTE: THE ASSUMPTION FOR THIS CONFLICT IS THAT HELBRECHT DISCOVERS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OPHIDIUM GULF AND DEMANDS THOSE RESPONSIBLE TO BE HANDED OVER TO THE BT. THE DA OBVIOUSLY REFUSE AND THE CONFLICT ENSUES. WE CAN ASSUME BT CALL IN ALL THEIR FLEETS AND TROOPS AVAILABLE (c.10000 MARINES). THE CONFLICT THEN ENSUES IN SOME FAR FLUNG PART OF THE GALAXY WHERE NO ONE ELSE IS, SO NO ALLIES, NO INQUISITION, JUST CHAPTER VERSUS CHAPTER. EFFECTIVELY, WHOEVER WINS WILL WRITE THE HISTORY BOOKS.


But that is the problem. The Ophidium Gulf incident shows the relative strength of the Dark Angels vs. the Black Templars. The Templars are scattered about in various-sized crusades like the Ophidium Gulf, whereas the Dark Angels are far more tightly organized.

The "assumption" that all Templars come together in a coherent fashion is more or less the same as the "assumption" that Dark Angels have 10-times the numbers they do now.

The assumption changes the very parameters that a more "realistic" comparison of the two should be based on in the first place. Not to mention that it is one of the key strengths of the Dark Angels that people DON'T find out gak about what they've been up to, even if entire crusades, planets and possibly minor Space Marine chapters "disappear" in the process. Assuming that "Helbrecht Discovers What Happens" again negates a key strength of the Dark Angels. You're arbitrarily subtracting the key strengths of the Dark Angels so that the hypothetical conflict favours the Templars from the get go. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259195.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Banzaimash wrote:
NOTE: THE ASSUMPTION FOR THIS CONFLICT IS THAT HELBRECHT DISCOVERS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OPHIDIUM GULF AND DEMANDS THOSE RESPONSIBLE TO BE HANDED OVER TO THE BT. THE DA OBVIOUSLY REFUSE AND THE CONFLICT ENSUES. WE CAN ASSUME BT CALL IN ALL THEIR FLEETS AND TROOPS AVAILABLE (c.10000 MARINES). THE CONFLICT THEN ENSUES IN SOME FAR FLUNG PART OF THE GALAXY WHERE NO ONE ELSE IS, SO NO ALLIES, NO INQUISITION, JUST CHAPTER VERSUS CHAPTER. EFFECTIVELY, WHOEVER WINS WILL WRITE THE HISTORY BOOKS.




Well, if you want to remove the BT's tenuous advantage with Inquisition and Church allies...

Then the Dark Angels.

With their planetoid command ship, tightly organized forces, the death wing and over-abundance of excellent equipment... Oh and their psykers, their tons and tons of really good psykers.

And again, as stated by Gav Thorpe, the Dark Angels and their successor chapters are one army, still united as a legion.


Oh and a very minor footnote. There's a Primarch sleeping within the rock and every chance that if it were threatened, he'd wake up...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259230.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
 Mr Morden wrote:
The important bit is the Unforgiven aspect ?

That is apparently the ones that form the mini-Legion?

What does it say in the Codex about this as its all new fluff to me? Is it any and all Chapters descended from the DA or just the 2nd Founding?

Yep, that´s the point. Chapters descendant from the Dark Angel are "independent" from the original chapter only in name. Their leaders are part of the Inner Circle, an organization that includes all leaders of the descendants. They coordinate their operations and obey orders from Azrael. This is something some people in the Imperium suspect, which is the reason why they have fewer descendants than the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists.

For me, the most interesting part of the Dark Angels is this "we have our own agenda" thing. When Guilliman had the Legions disbanded, they kept a secret organization tiding them all together. That´s nice.

About all of them or only the 2nd founding, it is not clear. There are only three known descendants from the 2nd Foundation. We have the names of other successors that are in the secret too. But we actually do not know how many Chapters are and how many of them obey orders from Azrael as the leader of the Inner Circle.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259257.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259257.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful?
 The Crusader wrote:
I don't recall Templars not giving any gene-seed tithes either.


Ofc they give tithes - but if they have several times the number of marines they should be sending in a lot more than you'd expect of a "normal" Chapter. They're hoarding geneseed (or using it more likely as constant crusading has got to be heavy on the casualty lists) that they're not supposed to have. And tax evasion is one of the worst crimes there is in the IoM - it's not just a worldy crime but also heresy since the tithe is "for the Emperor". ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259297.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? El'Johnson might have had more than half the fleet if not all under his command) and a warp storm from the chaos gods. The Rock is not to be meddled with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6259402.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Spetulhu wrote:
And to repeat myself, the templars can't call in all their crusades no matter how sterling their record. Not only would it be revealed that they grossly overstepped the Codex limits - they must also have sent in too little in geneseed tithe for ten thousand years. Tax evasion is a capital crime.

Every Codex Chapter (especially the Imperial Fists) would have to take measures against them or piss on the Codex along with the templars. Diverting geneseed that should have rightfully been sent to Mars - for ten thousand years no less - is also many orders of magnitude above what Huron Lufgt kept from them. The High Lords cannot let that slide, and the punishment would have to be extreme so every marine sees that there are limits to their autonomy.


The BTs wouldn't need to show off their huge numbers though. They have massive fleet resources so each crusade could send in ships with token marine detachments. Any assembled BT chapter would have an acceptable number of marines but would have a massive fleet consisting of ships just as old and impressive than anything fielded by the Angels.

What would happen too if the two chapters were lined up ready to duke it out and a message came through that fallen had been found. How many of the DAs best troops would suddenly have to go "do something". ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6274633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6274633.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6274995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6274995.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
The Black Templars, what, have a lot of dudes? Probably less than 8,000 which is a good estimate for how many the Dark Angels can put up. So they are outnumbered, outgunned, and more poorly equipped.

And I doubt the Lion would sleep through the annihilation of his chapter. So probably 8,000 Space Marines, 800 terminators, 800 Ravenwing, The Rock, and all the very best equipment in the entire Astartes, led by a Primarch, against 3-5000 dudes, only half of whom could round up power armor. lol

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6275305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6275305.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
I'd have to imagine the Minotaurs are going to be one of the strongest - they have the support of the high lords of terra, meaning they are outfitted to rival the most prestigous of the legions, and they are practised, experienced Space Marine killers, with multiple renegade chapters wiped out. Although the legions do have the experience of the Heresy to call upon, it was a long time ago, and only the most venerable of dreadnaughts are going to remember it. They also have a very powerful fleet (although it is unclear exactly how badly it was damaged in the fall of orpheus) and specialise in close quarters/ship-to-ship warfare, would would give them an advantage in a naval engagement. The only chapter I can see besting them from a combat standpoint is the Grey Knights, but they recruit much slower than the Minotaurs so in a battle of attrition the latter may be able to grind them down. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6275753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6275753.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful?
Lysit wrote:
You also have to consider that the "Rock" survived a planet being destroyed by the firepower of half a legion... The Rock is not to be meddled with.


The Rock didn't survive, it's the fragment that remained. Caliban was destroyed.

I think the DA greatest weakness is their pride. Hiding all secrets from everyone because only they are worthy to deal with their own mess. DA are still on the verge of treachery in my opinion, and destroying an Astartes Strike cruiser is just more evidence of that.

In a campaign of sneaky tactics and dirty tricks I think the DA have more tricks to play. But in a battle of resources, man power and a fair fight I think that BT would swing it. They are a huge chapter, also fleet based, but all of the Templars energy is spent on a constant crusade. They are on a higher war-footing and I think the Templars would win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6275818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6275818.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
2. They excel at fighting and defeating much larger forces with there insanely ballzy Sammy and RW w/, DW strikes. The main force would hold the templars at an area. While the 2 heavy hitting companies would come and say hello to Mr helbrecht where sammeal would strike him down due to some crazy unfor seeable stunt.

Call it sneaky to "cut off the head" but damn if it isn't effective.

The ",rock" is there huge huge freaking huge! Fortress that survived the destruction of a planet it was on.... those shields are still in tact. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6276214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6276214.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Those saying Ultramarines are dopes, they don't compete in this contest as PDF doesn't count in a 'Chapter fight' as the poster says.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6276874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6276874.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? The Black Templars have huge numbers, but they are spread out too much to counter the Dark Angels. Also, the Black Templar tactics are far from subtle or refined.

And don't forget that the Dark Angels are a first founding chapter, and not just an ordinary one, but they used to be the first legion. They were the very first Space Marines.
As a result of that, I would guess that the Dark Angels are more respected and would get the support from the wider Imperium. Especially since the Inquisition doesn't like either chapter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6283947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6283947.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? STC's, with at least 1 possibly two. (everytime the master of the ravenwing's jetbike is destroyed a new one suddenly "appears"). So let's think for a second, we have an ultra secretive chapter with STC's, and a number of marines that is hinted to be close to 100,000 versus 8,000 or so black templars?

It's not too hard to figure out who wins this one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284232.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful? SM lists the Ultramarines as having a whopping 3 battle-barges. Further, as has been pointed out, Helbrecht was chosen from all those present at Armageddon to be Supreme Commander of the Fleet. The claim that Black Templars tactics are somehow lesser than other Chapters is entirely a misconception due to the old Righteous Zeal rule.

And, for the record, anyone using the argument that the Templars are spread out so the 9+ Unforgiven Chapters would win, why are the Unforgiven not spread out? Why do you assume that the Dark Angels are the ones gathering to attack the Templars and not the other way around?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284246.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284246.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? DA would know the BT were coming before all the BT knew they were . On a side note fluff has azreal as a much better strategist than helbretch (on the whole) though hel prob is the better warrior.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284371.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284371.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful?
 raiden wrote:
Because the DA would know the BT were coming before all the BT knew they were . On a side note fluff has azreal as a much better strategist than helbretch (on the whole) though hel prob is the better warrior.


What has Azrael ever done to prove himself as a strategist? Helbrecht has Armageddon going for him, when did Azrael ever match that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284424.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? IMO plans things out better. Hel is more a man of action and quick desicsions. But Sammy can do that haha. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6284822.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? BT would win on numbers just saying the DA have a whole Legion under their command. All they did was split their legion into 9 'successors' so they wouldn't arouse suspicion but for all intense purposes these Chapters are just extended arms fully intact with the DA. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6285786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6285786.page GMT Re:Which Chapter is more powerful?
Niexist wrote:
It says very cleary in the chapter organization for 6E codex that no one is sure exactly how many marines, terminator armors, or space marine bikes the dark angels have. They also are the only chapter with access to STC's, with at least 1 possibly two. (everytime the master of the ravenwing's jetbike is destroyed a new one suddenly "appears"). So let's think for a second, we have an ultra secretive chapter with STC's, and a number of marines that is hinted to be close to 100,000 versus 8,000 or so black templars?

It's not too hard to figure out who wins this one.


every peice of space marine equipment is from an STC. do the dark angels have unique STCs? yes.is this an advantage? possiably in that they have equipment others might not be familer with, but it can also be a disadvantage. the Mechanium obviously doesn't like people who without STC information from them. so I suppose the question is, is that STC information worth it if the concequences where for a titan legion to withhold their support? I know it's fun to talk chapters with no outside considerations. but space marine chapters don't exist in a vaccuum. and if the dark angels behavior has aliennated powerful factions within the IoM that's something worth at least noting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6285962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6285962.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? DA, not DA plus the inner circle. And while i get that the DA and their succesors are closer than most others i still think it should striclty be DA vs BT and while the DA are a more well rounded force, the BT would just roll through said force with land raiders and start lopping off heads, plus the BT have Grimaldus, and that bastard just wont die. So if its just DA vs BT, no contest, if its plus inner circle then its prob DA but itd be epic]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6286954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6286954.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Vincente Sixx wrote:
The post said DA, not DA plus the inner circle. And while i get that the DA and their succesors are closer than most others i still think it should striclty be DA vs BT and while the DA are a more well rounded force, the BT would just roll through said force with land raiders and start lopping off heads, plus the BT have Grimaldus, and that bastard just wont die. So if its just DA vs BT, no contest, if its plus inner circle then its prob DA but itd be epic


hmmm I think sammeal could take that chaplin lol. It depends, if the BT attack the Rock full force, they will still lose. The Rock is as impenetrable (if not more so) than the IF capt. ship. If the DA attack the BT they would start with a precision strike vs Mr. Hel. how effective this would be is unknown. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6286964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6286964.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful? DA and thier buddies started fighting the Ultramarines and their buddies, the BA and their crazy buddies would join the Ultramarines, fact. as for the space wolves? I think they would just stay out of it tbh. the iMPERIAL FISTS would almost certainly side with the Ultramarines, they are both codex chapters afterall.

as for the white scars and raven guard? I think the RG would aid the Imperial fists and the white scars would come to the aid of the IF and the BA (lets not forgewt they held the line at TERRA in the Horus Heresy.. overall it would be the most horrific war ever, even worse than the heresy because EVERY pdf regiament and Guard unit with allegiance would join and the grey knights would jump in and oh lets not forget those sneaky Black Templars, i mean honestly, the DA havnt got a hope, (no offense but they are too secretive and weird to call on the rest of the imperium for support, the Ultramarines can call on anybody and nearly everyone will help.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6287260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6287260.page GMT Which Chapter is more powerful?
Both are Space Marines after all. Despite all the fanatic stuff, BT are not idiots, and are fully capable of tactics. It would be a tight fight if on even numbers.

And here comes the problem. Without knowing the precise number of DA sucesor chapters and the exact number of BT I cannot give an answer.

In last instance I think it would come to who has the greater number of troops. Otherwise we are gonna end in a "Who is the best space marine" argument.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6287384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/563508/6287384.page GMT