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Which is more powerful?

How do you define power? Numbers?, tech? Tactics? Head to head battle?

If one were to wage war on another, then who would win in the resulting conflict?

Due to the size and strength of Ultramar's navy and PDF, as well as their influence across an entire segmentum, the Ultramarines are the most powerful chapter.

Second after them, with their sheer numbers of Marines, are the Black Templars.

The only edge the Dark Angels would have would be if you gave them access to their close knit group of successors. If not, the Black Templars win that fight.

Out of the two options, Angels. More resources, more manpower (if allowed to mobilize), more ancient toys and gadgets.

Out of all the options, see Vet Sarge's answer.

Black Templars are more spread out, despite having greater numbers. However Dark Angels could also potentially call for help from successors.

Black Templars - they alone are a huge Chapter, then you can add in the Imperial Fists themselves and their Successor Chapters whom have a strong bond with each other and the Templars.

Also the BT have good relationships with other Imperial Organisations such as the Eccelisarchy and Inquisition compared to the Dark Angels. The Guard and the Mechanicus seem to work well with them.

No contest really IMO

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Due to the size and strength of Ultramar's navy and PDF, as well as their influence across an entire segmentum, the Ultramarines are the most powerful chapter.

Second after them, with their sheer numbers of Marines, are the Black Templars.

The only edge the Dark Angels would have would be if you gave them access to their close knit group of successors. If not, the Black Templars win that fight.

And on that, I'd give them the win, because it's strongly suggested throughout DA reference, that the successors are basically the chapter, playing nice and following the whole 'break up the legions' following the HH but ready to combine to form devastator at a moment's notice if the fallen are mentioned accidentally at a diner party or if anything threatens them.

So, Black Templars, the red headed stepchild chapter, shows up shrieking about the DA being filthy, shady and smelling of chaos and that they are going to meet them after school and give them a right good kicking... and DA shows up after school, with all it's chumrade chapters, forms into it's Legion of old, and beats the BTs into the ground...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
The Guard and the Mechanicus seem to work well with them.

How do you get that? The church I'll give you for sure, but the 'heretical' Mechanicus and the 'morally questionable' Guard? I don't see either working for the Templars, Especially not as call-ins.

And I was fairly certain the IFs regarded them as a bit loopy, hence the separation in the first place?

With their successors their numbers are roughly the equal, as there are 8 successor chapters (some of which aren't so close to the DA) to the DA.

Unlike the Dark Angels the Black Templars are a known quantity and relaible - they say they will do something - they do it or die trying.

I tend to look at BL novels such as Helsreach for Black Templars and in that they fight well alongside both and honour previous engagments / units that fought alongside them.

Like many Astartes Chapters, they form pacts with such units and organistations. If the BT have the Church on their side (and quite possibily the Inquisition) then why wouldn;t the Guard aid them aginst a "renegade" Chapter which is what those organisations would likely call the Dark Angels.

The Mechanicus are fairly pragmatic and may well honour pacts and I would think that they be keen to take any arcane tech from the Dark Angels if they can during the war.

The IF might regard them as "different" long ago but they now a very successful Successor Chapter - something to be proud of I think. I can't see them standing by if theya re attacked?

I am not sure actually who in the Imperium would join the Dark Angels against the Black Templars except successor Chapters?

How successful would the ultramarines be if they called out to all there successors?
Granted they aren't as tight knit group like the Dark Angels, but there are potentially alot more even if only of a fraction respond.

The fluff seems to suggest the Ultramarines hold a lot of sway over their successors. Not all of them, obviously, but when 65% or so of all Chapters are Ultramarines, how many do they need?

People often get bent out of shape over Mat Ward's fluff, but when you really think about the 40K universe, the fact that the Ultramarines account for nearly 2/3rds of all Space Marines, genetically, that means there is only about 35% to spread between the other 7 loyal sources of gene seed. (since there are no Space Wolf successors). You have to figure the Blood Angels get less play because of the Rage, and the Salamanders seem to just get no play either (obviously because they're black. ). So that means no other chapter likely accounts for more than 6 or 7 % of all Space Marines. There are literally ten times more Ultramarines successors than the next largest First Founding chapter.

The Imperium doesn't screw around, lol. It's one of the things that makes fan-fiction ideas like female Marines, or traitor geneseed chapters so silly. The Imperium has a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" policy. Think about the Cursed Founding. It took 5,000 years for the Imperium to work up the guts to try to fix/improve the Space Marines, and it failed so hard, they never tried it again.

When in doubt, make more Ultramarines, lol.

I thought it was half, not 2/3rds. 500 successors (I guess to mirror the old 500 worlds of Ultramar?), for half a million marines, out of a pitiful one million total Space Marines (1000 chapters of 1000) in the entire Imperium.

Nope. 2/3rds.

Technically, it's fluctuated from 60% to 2/3rds across the years and sources, but C:SM6E says "over two thirds".


Remember, the "500 Worlds" is an invention of Dan Abnett and the Black Library, and has no bearing on the 40K fluff which precedes much of it by like 20 years. The 2/3rds goes back at least to Codex: Ultramarines, which is the oldest detailed reference to the modern idea of the Foundings that I'm aware of.

Between the two options, it's hard to say. Dark Angels still have a lot of old tech available to them, and can reunite all their successor if needed. Black Templars have the numbers, though.

Of course, the Minotaurs have the backing of the High Lords of Terra.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The fluff seems to suggest the Ultramarines hold a lot of sway over their successors. Not all of them, obviously, but when 65% or so of all Chapters are Ultramarines, how many do they need?

People often get bent out of shape over Mat Ward's fluff, but when you really think about the 40K universe, the fact that the Ultramarines account for nearly 2/3rds of all Space Marines, genetically, that means there is only about 35% to spread between the other 7 loyal sources of gene seed. (since there are no Space Wolf successors). You have to figure the Blood Angels get less play because of the Rage, and the Salamanders seem to just get no play either (obviously because they're black. ). So that means no other chapter likely accounts for more than 6 or 7 % of all Space Marines. There are literally ten times more Ultramarines successors than the next largest First Founding chapter.

The Imperium doesn't screw around, lol. It's one of the things that makes fan-fiction ideas like female Marines, or traitor geneseed chapters so silly. The Imperium has a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" policy. Think about the Cursed Founding. It took 5,000 years for the Imperium to work up the guts to try to fix/improve the Space Marines, and it failed so hard, they never tried it again.

When in doubt, make more Ultramarines, lol.

What the hell? This is a debate between BTs and DAs, don't shove Smurfs into this.

Personally, I think that engaging (or rather attempting to engage) Deathwing Terminators into close combat is a silly idea. I'd root for the Dark Angels.

SarisKhan wrote:
What the hell? This is a debate between BTs and DAs, don't shove Smurfs into this.

The question was asked. Refrain from giving me instructions.

No, follow the rules Veteran Sergeant. Now.

Anyway, what does the current fluff indicate of the Black Templars' numbers?

Ahhh yes, the rules. How could I have forgotten?

One thing to remember is that the BT have no excuse for being overstrength - the only reason they get away with it is the success of the crusade fleets and the fact they are spread out. The DA and successors on the other hand are at least technically separate Chapters. Collecting all they have will see the templars condemned by the High Lords and every right-thinking Son of Dorn. The DA doing the same will wake suspicion but with the right explanation and a promise of breaking up when the job is done they're in the clear.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Ahhh yes, the rules. How could I have forgotten?

What would your SPIRITUAL LIEGE say about that, eh? Oh, wait, he's locked in stasis at the instant of death... Whoops

Except the Inquisiton have been noted as looking at the Black Templars and are not worried as they have an flawess record - Unlike the Dark Angels who have been to turn on and/or abandon Imperial forces.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Except the Inquisiton have been noted as looking at the Black Templars and are not worried as they have an flawess record - Unlike the Dark Angels who have been to turn on and/or abandon Imperial forces.

Yeah... Now the support of the church and especially the inquisition is definitely on the BT side...

And then all the other chapters get wind of the Inquisition backing the boys in black...

And then you have every other chapter moving in in support of the Dark Angels. Hell the Ultramarines and the imperial navy fired on Dorn's bunch for not adhering to the Codex. The inquisition has pissed off a lot of Astartes over the years.

I think even the Space Wolves would support the Dark Angels over the Inquisition, church and BTs.

So, let's put the Ultramarines and their successors, most other founding chapters and their successors in there... And perhaps even the Wolves, for shiz n giggles, riding in at the last minute with 'yeah, I still don't like you, but we are brothers after all' and other epic cheese...

Maybe - but the Dark Angels have also annoyed other Chapters - sometime covertly like taking out Black Templar Strike Cruisers - other times not bothering - just leaving their brothers whilst their chased after the Unforgiven. Their plot defence is similar to the Wolves

The Black Templars have forged alliances where the Dark
Angels have broken promises.................

Most Astartes would try to avoid a war between their brothers see the Badab conflict but there are others who will see it is an Opportunity to settle old Scores.

Depends who is seen be on the side of the Imperium............

The dark angels work against the forces of chaos are regarded highly and near perfect in the eyes of the inquisition. Its one of the big reasons they get left alone. sure they may leave a battle area, but when they say "we stopped chaos doing blank" the inq. tends to take a look the other way

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Except the Inquisiton have been noted as looking at the Black Templars and are not worried as they have an flawess record - Unlike the Dark Angels who have been to turn on and/or abandon Imperial forces.

Yeah... Now the support of the church and especially the inquisition is definitely on the BT side...

And then all the other chapters get wind of the Inquisition backing the boys in black...

And then you have every other chapter moving in in support of the Dark Angels. Hell the Ultramarines and the imperial navy fired on Dorn's bunch for not adhering to the Codex. The inquisition has pissed off a lot of Astartes over the years.

I think even the Space Wolves would support the Dark Angels over the Inquisition, church and BTs.

So, let's put the Ultramarines and their successors, most other founding chapters and their successors in there... And perhaps even the Wolves, for shiz n giggles, riding in at the last minute with 'yeah, I still don't like you, but we are brothers after all' and other epic cheese...

Most Chapters wouldn't support either, but far fewer would support the DA than the BT, especially considering the former's suspicious and untrustworthy behaviour, compared to the latter's stellar track record for expanding and reclaiming Imperial holdings, assisting anyone fighting the enemies of the Emperor and being on an eternal crusade for 10000 years. The only people I can see coming to the DA's aid is the SW, but they're really not going to change much considering what's pitted against them. I don't see why the Ultras would help either, but if they were to help anyone it would probably be the Black Templars, as Idoubt they'd risk their power supporting an underdog.

 raiden wrote:
The dark angels work against the forces of chaos are regarded highly and near perfect in the eyes of the inquisition. Its one of the big reasons they get left alone. sure they may leave a battle area, but when they say "we stopped chaos doing blank" the inq. tends to take a look the other way

Is that in the new Codex - as previously they have always been a bit suspect? Difficult to prove anything............... was a cool plot device in a 40k rpg I ran

I think that black templars are more powerful as they could atleast try to summon the strenght of the planets in which they have keeps. Of course this might have changed in the 6th codex but it is a nice note.

Dark Angels for me.

Thanks to the Inner Circle, all successor chapters are so close to the First Founding chapter that it can be considered a Legion.

So do they have 50-100 "minion" Successor Chapters as Legions tended to have 50-100,000 Marines?