<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing 40k group also plays Deathwatch and likes the fluffy bits of 40k. The new owner of the Deathwing was playing a Dark Angels devastator in Deathwatch and after reading the fluff immediately knew he wanted to take the Deathwing Terminator advance. As the group read a little more into Deathwing from Deathwatch and other fluff we came to realize that these guys are woefully represented in 6th edition table top.

Our understanding is that they are the kings of alpha strike, show up out of nowhere guns ablazing. The only chance you have against them is to weather the storm and return fire. As such he thinks a few tweaks would make them playable for friendly competitive play in basements across the world. I would appreciate any feedback on its relative "balance", keep in mind this is pure Deathwing with no green or black. Only models in Terminator Armor with the Inner Circle special rule are allowed in this particular army, no allies, fortifications, inquisition, supplements or any other new idea GW has for ways to add things to your codex without making you a new codex. Very fluffy, and just so happens to help with potential balance issues!

Add to ability "Deathwing Assault":
Units choosing to make a Deathwing Assault do not count against the number of units held in reserve at the beginning of the game. If all the controlling players units start in reserve, the player is not subject to losing the game during the entire first turn due to having no models on the field. If a unit making a Deathwing Assault suffers a Mishap, they may always choose to suffer a Delayed result instead of roll on the Mishap Table.

Add to ability "Vengeful Strike":
On the turn a model with this special rule and armed with a Storm Bolter arrives from Deep Strike, change its profile to Heavy 3. A unit composed entirely of models with the Vengeful Strike special rule may choose one of the following special rules to benefit from until the end of this shooting phase: Twin Linked, Tank Hunters, Ignores Cover or Rending.

Add to options for Deathwing Terminators to take one per five models to replace their storm bolter:
Heavy Bolter 5 pts
Multi-Melta 10 pts
Autocannon 10 pts
Lascannon 20 pts
Grav Cannon 35 pts

We think this will give a very Deathwing-y feel to the army in these specific ways:
1.) Starting all in reserve and Deathwing Assaulting turn 1 guarantees alpha strike
2.) Although the solution to balance isn't normally "thrown more special rules at it" we feel that Deathwing are an exception to this and deserve some nice things to offset their low model count
3.) More heavy weapon options lets them deal with anything through ranged firepower turn 1. Not having access to anti-heavy armor ranged weapons was an issue as was not having anything natively AP2 (rending doesn't count when you may only be shooting your gun once).
EDIT: It was pointed out that they have access to Plasma Cannons on terminators. There were none modeled as such in the army sitting in front of me on the table top, my mistake.
4.) Through a combination of better ranged weapon selection and some new special rules you can cause SEVERE damage turn 1. This feels very Deathwing to us and helps balance out the low model count of Deathwing when there is less return fire. In the end it basically accelerates the game by one turn as far as casualties on both sides are concerned.

Example List (34 models) he has played against me with a couple times (we proxied the knights and alternate special weapons):

Belial (TH/SS)

2X Terminators (5 man squad)
2 chainfist, assault cannon

2X Terminstors (5 man squad)
2 chainfist, grav cannon

Terminators (6 man squad +Belial)
6 TH/SS, multi-melta

Deathwing Knights (7 man squad)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6318450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6318450.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
Think about what you writted, and put yourself in the shoes of the guy you will have to face Termies with MM, grav guns or Lascans...

Does not Deathwing termies allready have acces to Plasma cannons?

When i look at it its just like you and your friend, saw the Obliterators rules and though " WHy can't i do that with my termies!"

For starters you have better rules and survivibility with your termies, take an Apotichary and give shields to everyone, and they are night unstoppable, Oblits arn't like that.

SM Termies really don't need a buff, when they allready are the best termies in the galaxy...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6321804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6321804.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Slayer le boucher wrote:
NO.

For starters you have better rules and survivibility with your termies, take an Apotichary and give shields to everyone, and they are night unstoppable, Oblits arn't like that.

SM Termies really don't need a buff, when they allready are the best termies in the galaxy...


1.) Apothicaries are only available in the Command Squad, not a scoring unit, max 2/army after you buy a Deathwing HQ, and you still need troops.
2.) Oblits are swiss army knifes, I don't want to strap the whole armory to my termies but I do want them to get more choice in the single gun they get (in a 200+ point squad) that lets them tailor the squad to specific targets.
3.) Deathwing with all TH/SS is as far from fluffy as blue marines shaking hands with Tau (which is also totally legal in table top terms)

Deathwing are supposed to show up out of nowhere and be shooting as if their guns had started shooting while they were teleporting, not letting you shoot into them with their SS held up and then charge when half the squad is dead. Personally as a guard player, I think you underestimate how well weight of fire kills TH/SS Termies. I have found various versions of this "Guns Blazing" phrase in every deathwing fluff I have read. Basically Deathwing are supposed to "show up and shoot you to death", that is not TH/SS spam. Also, they pay extra points for the Vengful Strike ability that is of no use to a TH/SS model. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325368.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
Terminators with multi-meltas would be too scary. 30" melta, really?

EDIT: To clarify, I didn't mean to give them combi-bolters like Chaos Terminators; more like an underslung combi-weapon attached to their Storm Bolter. It would be unique and it wouldn't be massively powerful, so it could be flavourful.

EDIT2: Or they could have Special Issue Ammunition.

EDIT3: Or just have combi-bolters, actually, because they are better than Storm Bolters. I would suggest BS5, but that might be too good. Maybe only the Sergeant?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325468.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325468.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Just give them access to Heavy Bolters; they don't need to be Devastator Terminators in order to be "Shooty Alpha Strike Deathwing". Alternatively, give them more firepower with their Storm Bolters; twin-linked for the turn they deepstrike, or the ability to take combi-weapons like Chaos Terminators.

I am not trying to make Devastator Terminators, just give them some more dakka choices for the 1 or 2 guys that can carry a heavy weapon just like a Tactical Marines. Tactical Marines get Multi-Meltas and Heavy Bolters for their heavy guy, why not Tactical Terminators?
 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Terminators with multi-meltas would be too scary. 30" melta, really?

It's one shot at BS 4. I am not sure what you mean by 30" melta because you can't move the turn you DS and you can only get the bonus d6 at half range, can you explain more why this is a bad idea? It isn't too much different from DS landspeeder with MM (and far more expensive if I may say so).
 Frozen Ocean wrote:

EDIT: To clarify, I didn't mean to give them combi-bolters like Chaos Terminators; more like an underslung combi-weapon attached to their Storm Bolter. It would be unique and it wouldn't be massively powerful, so it could be flavourful.

EDIT2: Or they could have Special Issue Ammunition.

EDIT3: Or just have combi-bolters, actually, because they are better than Storm Bolters. I would suggest BS5, but that might be too good. Maybe only the Sergeant?

I like the idea of getting a 1 shot underslung special weapon to the whole squad, but I think that might be a little powerful in combination with the current rule of TL when you DS. Getting hit with 4 TL BS4 meltagun shots, 8 TL BS4 plasmagun shots? That is making lots of things vanish in pink mist... even by my IG "special weapons for everyone" tastes :p

I like the Special Issue Ammunition idea, however I will have to think about it more as currently there are not any storm bolter units that can take it enmass. It shouldn't be too much different than Sternguard but I will definently look into it.

Combi-Bolter vs Storm Bolter is a close argument for terminators. I can go to Combi Bolters simply for the fluffy "we have really old suits of terminator armor" reason, but it also makes the Special Ammo an easier sell because you no longer get double tap at 24" on hellfire ammo This would however mean that Vengeful Strike is obsolete in it's current form (TL when you DS) as your gun would already be TL.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325653.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
30" multi-melta is because the Terminators will continue to have the multi-melta in turns after they Deep Strike. The difference is that Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike with multi-meltas, and firing the multi-melta prevents the whole squad from moving, which isn't the case with Terminators. This is why Terminators don't get lascannons. Furthermore, beyond half range, a melta is still Str8 AP1 - formidable in of itself. You'd be getting a twin-linked 24" melta shot (Vengeful Strike), and 30" of melta each subsequent turn. It's crazy. A multi-melta Land Speeder is not Terminators, it is a Land Speeder. Just like how it is an entirely different thing in the hands of Tactical Marines compared to 'Tactical' Terminators, it is so for Land Speeders and everything else that isn't a Terminator. Would it be good if Chaos Cultists could take Thunderhammers? No, it'd be an awful idea. That doesn't mean that TH/SS Terminators are an awful idea.

Special Issue Ammunition can be anything, it doesn't have to be the same as Sternguard. For a silly example; "Darkraven Darkbolts of Darkness - S5 AP1, Instant Death, Blind". Furthermore, Sternguard are 50pts more than Tactical Marines. Special Issue Ammunition should raise the cost of your Deathwing Terminators appropriately.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325736.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing TL from standard Vengence Strike) is that his 34 models in the list I showed put out 68 S4 AP5 TL shots the turn they arrive if they all had Storm Bolters (which they don't). That would give him 60 hits, shooting at T3 guard gives him 40 wounds, with 5+ cover gives me 26 unsaved wounds. I have two blob squads that size in my list at his point level and that is if he pours ALL of his fire into one unit. The math gets worse when you are shooting at Marines... 10 wounds if I did my math-hammer right. His point, which I agree with in premise, is that Deathwing do not have any way to get through hordes due to their very low model count. Marines come lower than half price and get similar "mass firepower".

I understand the concept that the cost of a given weapon also depends on the platform to which is attached and that is what I am trying to look at with the weapons he wants to add. I would point out that another local player plays Salamanders and loves his Drop Pod Tacticals which sometimes include MM (most of the time it is HF heavy, Melta special and MC Combi-Melta sarge) because of the movement issue you mentioned, but it is theoretically possible This type of setup would be similar to what a Terminator Squad can pull off, however the normal marines have the advantage of more accurate DS with drop pod and the 6" disembark in addition to having 2 shots first turn. The Terminators are more survivable and that is included in their base price IMO.

I misunderstood, but my mind was immediatly awash with how much our Nidzilla player would cry foul at a full termy army armed with hellfire shells I was also slightly afraid of board wide Dragonfire Bolts as a foot guard player, not to mention standard marine rage at getting board wide Vengeance rounds on a 2+ platform. I agree there is a lot of fun to be had here, potentially a system similar to combi weapons where you get it for 1 round per game selected when you roll warlord traits? You are teleporting from orbit, you generally know what you are getting yourself into and can throw in the right clip for the job...

After our discussion I would like to make the altered Vengeful Strike as follows:
On the turn a model with this special rule and armed with a Storm Bolter arrives from Deep Strike, change its profile to Heavy 3. A unit composed entirely of models with the Vengeful Strike special rule may treat their ranged weapons as Twin Linked.

They already get TL the turn they DS, this just gives them some more low/mid strength dakka which they have a distinct lack of. I am still in favor of giving more heavy weapon choices, I may ask him to alter the point value of some of the weapons but I like the list he has there in general. Having not played an army with a lot of 3+ or 2+ saves I can't say that I have too much experience with facing down Gravcannons, but at close to the cost of another whole figure I think it might be alright...


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6325922.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
Dont take it as insult, but i think you dont know how to properly use your toys, So you are trying yo get more toys in play, hoping they can do the job. Your army is high defensive, have powefull fast attack, high surviving scoring and one of the best death starts in the game. If you turn your scoring into deathstars, you are unbalancig the game.

Scoring units are not to "wreack havoc", those are the elite and heavy support units. Hell, you can get 2 termie squads for scoring, one honour guard with shields and apothecary, 2 squads of scout bikes with locators, land speeders of attack bikes for melta/flamers, and complete the points with more termies. You will have dozens of deepstriking twin-linked terminators with storm bolter and assault cannons, at the first turn, at the face of your enemy and without scattering (due to bikers). And obviously, a big undying death star atracting fire like hell. Well, that looks fun at least. ^^]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326030.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326030.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Dont take it as insult, but i think you dont know how to properly use your toys, So you are trying yo get more toys in play, hoping they can do the job. Your army is high defensive, have powefull fast attack, high surviving scoring and one of the best death starts in the game. If you turn your scoring into deathstars, you are unbalancig the game.

The Dark Angels book DOES include all of the things you are presenting above. The aim of this is to EXCLUDE all units not wearing Terminator Armor for fluff reasons. I realize that the entire codex is balanced around having many different elements to make it well rounded, but we are only taking terminators for fluffy deathwing reasons. We are trying to make up for all of the balanced things those other units bring to the table by slightly (hopefully) altering the big guys in white. Fluff does have Ravenwing and Deathwing in close concert but in the current rules, you may never get to turn 2 because your couple squads of Ravenwing got blasted apart by the other player's alpha strike and you get tabled. The more points you put into Ravenwing, the fewer points you have for the Terminators that should make up the bulk of a Deathwing assault by fluff. Yes I speak herasy by trying to reconcile the rules with the fluff

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Scoring units are not to "wreack havoc", those are the elite and heavy support units. Hell, you can get 2 termie squads for scoring, one honour guard with shields and apothecary, 2 squads of scout bikes with locators, land speeders of attack bikes for melta/flamers, and complete the points with more termies. You will have dozens of deepstriking twin-linked terminators with storm bolter and assault cannons, at the first turn, at the face of your enemy and without scattering (due to bikers). And obviously, a big undying death star atracting fire like hell. Well, that looks fun at least. ^^

Of all of these things, the rules I am proposing only would allow you to field the 2 termi squads and the honor guard (if they are in Terminator Armor). If you were restricted to only using Terminators in a Dark Angels list, how would you feel about the proposed rules?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326119.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
- Deathwing Terminators are Troops, and therefore scoring.
- Deathwing Terminators have the "Vengeful Strike" Special Rule, making all of their weapons Twin-Linked the turn they arrive by Deep Strike.
- They may take two special/heavy weapons per 5 models in the squad. This has potential for two twin-linked assault cannons (with possibility for Cyclone Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamers, and/or Plasma Cannons) + 8 twin-linked Storm Bolters, possibly coming down exactly where you want if there's a Teleport Homer around.

Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.

The only line I can find relating to this is on the Deathwing page of the Warhammer wiki (not Lexicanum, that other one), as follows:

The bulk of the 1st Company is composed of Terminator Squads, indefatigable warriors who blast apart their enemies with Storm Bolters whilst advancing into melee assault range. Deathwing Terminators feature a mix of weaponry, for both long-ranged and close combat oriented roles


It's not that I don't believe you or anything, just understand that this is all I have to go on for a grasp of how the fluff of Deathwing Terminators works. It seems that CC is something they do as well, so a few TH/SS Termies in there couldn't hurt.

So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326307.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing 40k Wiki:
Terminators typically begin engagements aboard an orbiting starship, teleporting to the battlefield at a prearranged time, often homing in on a signal from ranging Ravenwing units. By the time foes see the flash signifying the arrival of the Deathwing's Terminators, it is already too late. The Deathwing appear in a blazing hail of gunfire, as if they had begun firing while en route. They live up to their name, arriving like a sword stroke to deliver the deathblow. "


 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Dark Angels Codex, so correct me if I am wrong, but;

- Deathwing Terminators are Troops, and therefore scoring.
- Deathwing Terminators have the "Vengeful Strike" Special Rule, making all of their weapons Twin-Linked the turn they arrive by Deep Strike.
- They may take two special/heavy weapons per 5 models in the squad. This has potential for two twin-linked assault cannons (with possibility for Cyclone Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamers, and/or Plasma Cannons) + 8 twin-linked Storm Bolters, possibly coming down exactly where you want if there's a Teleport Homer around.


1.) Only if you take Belial do Terminator Squads become Scoring. He is a 190 point Terminator captain which 3 configs: SB/MC Fleshbane PS, pair of LC, or TH/SS chosen at army creation. He can precise shot on a 5+ which isn't really a big deal when you have a SB, but once again a reference to the shooty-ness of deathwing. His FOC re-arrange only applies to Tactical Terminators, not Deathwing Knights (melee specialist Deathwing) or Command Squads (potentialy very resilient deathstar mentioned above).
2.) Correct!
3.) They may only take one (HF/Plas cannon/Assault cannon/CML) per 5 models in a squad.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.


With the corrections from above I do believe that they do not have quite the alpha that is implied with "The Deathwing appear in a blazing hail of gunfire, as if they had begun firing while en route. They live up to their name, arriving like a sword stroke to deliver the deathblow." We have played a couple games with the rules outlined in my original post (3 against my foot guard, 2 against Tau, 1 against nidzilla and 1 against eldar bikers) And they appeared to work fairly well, which is why we thought we should get a wider idea of what others might think I realize that my personal opinion is jaded by my playing IG against it which may be just a bad match for them, however the other matches were fairly close and neither side blamed the new rules for the results.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326376.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
Done]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326380.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
I like the Banner idea, uses an existing item of wargear already available to them and simply opens up the restriction to something that is in the same family (it is just two bolters ductaped together).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326403.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Dark Angels Codex, so correct me if I am wrong, but;

- Deathwing Terminators CAN BE Troops, and therefore scoring.
- Deathwing Terminators have the "Vengeful Strike" Special Rule, making all of their weapons Twin-Linked the turn they arrive by Deep Strike. TRUE
- They may take two special/heavy weapons per 5 models in the squad. This has potential for two twin-linked assault cannons (with possibility for Cyclone Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamers, and/or Plasma Cannons) + 8 twin-linked Storm Bolters, possibly coming down exactly where you want if there's a Teleport Homer around. False its 1/per 5 same as standard termies

Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.

The only line I can find relating to this is on the Deathwing page of the Warhammer wiki (not Lexicanum, that other one), as follows:

The bulk of the 1st Company is composed of Terminator Squads, indefatigable warriors who blast apart their enemies with Storm Bolters whilst advancing into melee assault range. Deathwing Terminators feature a mix of weaponry, for both long-ranged and close combat oriented roles
Deathwing in the fluff ALWAYS fight in terminator armor. That is why we don't have sternguard or vanguard

It's not that I don't believe you or anything, just understand that this is all I have to go on for a grasp of how the fluff of Deathwing Terminators works. It seems that CC is something they do as well, so a few TH/SS Termies in there couldn't hurt. The real meaningful fluff for deathwing is the mixed squads. We mix and match heavy and cc weapons for flexibility

So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing.


While I would love my deathwing to be better. It's not a problem with the lack of weapons that is the problem its the survivability of termies in general has dropped and that even with the bonus rules we get they are overcosted. Also low model count in an all termie army cannot be avoided so you are lacking the numbers to have staying power. While I agree that the we should be able to remove the reserve restriction as that is also a big fluff deal.

@ OP: I don't think that adding new weapons and special rules is the proper way to balance our termie friends. They do not have the numbers to put out the needed firepower and adding new heavy weapons does not change that as its still 1/per 5 and even with split fire 1 MM or grav-cannon is not going to change the out come of the battle. At 44 points per model you will not have the numbers to combat anything but a similarly "elite" army


P.S. Deathwing for Life]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326433.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
-10 points across the board.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326443.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
I don't think that adding new weapons and special rules is the proper way to balance our termie friends. They do not have the numbers to put out the needed firepower and adding new heavy weapons does not change that as its still 1/per 5 and even with split fire 1 MM or grav-cannon is not going to change the out come of the battle. At 44 points per model you will not have the numbers to combat anything but a similarly "elite" army.

Our thought was that if we can do enough damage in our alpha strike, there is less fire comming back. Therefore increasing survivability by taking less return fire. So by buffing the Alpha with new special weapons and better rules for that turn, we wanted to have a true "Deathblow". Then the survivors duke it out with our 30 overcosted models

P.S. Deathwing for Life

I knew there was a following out there somewhere!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ninjacommando wrote:
Deathwing assault Auto lose only plays into effect if you CHoose to have them come in on the 2nd turn, At which point You lose at the end of Game Turn 1, However if you just Deathwing assault on the First turn you don't auto loose as your entire army appears on the board.


But you can't put yoru whole army in reserve without the other part of that rule...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326490.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing DWA everything onto the board there is no problem.

If you say that all your stuff is going to arrive 2nd turn then you auto lose.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326497.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Ninjacommando wrote:
You can put your whole army into reserve with the Deathwing assault rule, You only auto lose if you have no models on the board by the end of the game turn. if your opponent goes first, and then you do and DWA everything onto the board there is no problem.


I believe that the 6th edition rules state that you can only have 50% of your amy in reserve unless it MUST start in reserve (fliers, drop pods, etc). So you cannot put your whole army in reserve without the change in rules I had for Deathwing Assault. Correct me if I am wrong, but looking at my codex on "Deathwing Assault" doesn't say anything about being able to start all in reserve.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326530.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing DWA,

however you could place 50% of your terminators into standard reserves and then use the other 50% to Deathwing assault first turn. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326554.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
As the BRB says that you can have half (rounded up) of your units (disregarding those required to start in Reserve) start the game in Reserves and the others are deployed normally. You should be able to argue the case that since all of your army "MUST" start in reserves... then you can declare all your units for turn 1 and do exactly what I was proposing. My language is a little more specific, which I suppose is the point ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326573.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
holymauler wrote:

1.) Only if you take Belial do Terminator Squads become Scoring. He is a 190 point Terminator captain which 3 configs: SB/MC Fleshbane PS, pair of LC, or TH/SS chosen at army creation. He can precise shot on a 5+ which isn't really a big deal when you have a SB, but once again a reference to the shooty-ness of deathwing. His FOC re-arrange only applies to Tactical Terminators, not Deathwing Knights (melee specialist Deathwing) or Command Squads (potentialy very resilient deathstar mentioned above).


Don't you have to take him, in order to make the army Terminator-only (your options being to take PA or Belial, otherwise you have no scoring units)?

holymauler wrote:

3.) They may only take one (HF/Plas cannon/Assault cannon/CML) per 5 models in a squad.


Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say "2 special/heavy weapons (1 per 5 models in a squad)".

holymauler wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.


With the corrections from above I do believe that they do not have quite the alpha that is implied with "The Deathwing appear in a blazing hail of gunfire, as if they had begun firing while en route. They live up to their name, arriving like a sword stroke to deliver the deathblow." We have played a couple games with the rules outlined in my original post (3 against my foot guard, 2 against Tau, 1 against nidzilla and 1 against eldar bikers) And they appeared to work fairly well, which is why we thought we should get a wider idea of what others might think I realize that my personal opinion is jaded by my playing IG against it which may be just a bad match for them, however the other matches were fairly close and neither side blamed the new rules for the results.


Some mathhammer for Vengeful Strike:

You mentioned their inability to take on hordes, so:

10 Deathwing Terminators
8 Storm Bolters
2 Assault Cannons
= 15.407 Wounds vs Hormagaunts. That's roughly equal to 34 bolter shots. However, this unit isn't equipped for hordes, and assault cannons are great for many things.

10 Deathwing Terminators
8 Storm Bolters
2 Heavy Flamers (assume 13 hits each, just did a little test on my desk with a standard Hormagaunt formation and a flamer template)
= 34.761 Wounds vs Hormagaunts.

Meanwhile, here's Carnifex fluff:

Codex: Tyranids 5E wrote:The Carnifex is one of the deadliest of all the Hive Fleet's creatures. It is nothing less than a towering battering ram of impenetrable chitin, knotted musculature and unyielding bone. The Carnifex is a living engine of destruction, evolved for use in shock assaults, spaceship boarding actions and massed battles, where its immense bulk can crush any opponent and smash through almost any obstacle.


"Impenetrable chitin" and "unyielding bone" = 3+ armour save, same as a Space Marine. "Crush any opponent and smash through almost any obstacle" = pretty much every CC character in the game begs to differ.

It goes on to say;

Codex: Tyranids 5E wrote:The best way to survive a charging Carnifex is to be elsewhere when it arrives.


... or shoot it with any kind of high-strength weaponry, poison, or Instant Death. Or use a powerfist. In other words, Vengeful Strike is plenty representative of the fluff you are describing, but of course they aren't going to be putting out completely crazy amounts of firepower; they're still just firing bolters, after all.

EDIT:

 FirePainter wrote:

Deathwing in the fluff ALWAYS fight in terminator armor. That is why we don't have sternguard or vanguard


I wasn't disputing that, just quoting the article. I know that Deathwing are Terminators (it's kind of what they're famous for), but I'd never heard of the "alpha striking deep strike" aspect before. That's what I was talking about.

 FirePainter wrote:

The real meaningful fluff for deathwing is the mixed squads. We mix and match heavy and cc weapons for flexibility


Again, nothing to do with the topic at hand (even though I commented on exactly that).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326610.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing so you could have 2 assault cannons in your 5 man squad if you wanted to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326634.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing I can see you are really trying to help out here, Thanks!

I didn't include the ACs only because I was talking about upping the rate of fire of the SBs, I can see your point when you are adding in special weapons. Our thought was that since everything has Split fire, you would almost always split off the Heavy Weapon (MM/AC/Gravcannon/etc) to shoot at what it is "supposed to" and then SB into the hordes to try and knick them down. With the AT available turn 1 from current Terminators you are using that AC for anti-vehicle duty by our experience, hence why we wanted MM to be available to Terminators

Fluff is always "We are the best!" and I understand that. In the fluff that I get from the codex and other "sanctioned" sources, Deathwing are shooty first and punchy second. The way the rules are written currently that is reversed, and this edition heavily favors shooty (leaving alone that even a raw recruit in IG can get his hands on AP2). The "unique" unit for Deathwing are tougher termies with powermauls that they can turbocharge once, nothing shooty! I am not trying to use the "we are best" part of the fluff, just the way that the fluff says they are supposed to do their job (smiting heritics, xenos and occasionally Blue Marines ). Maybe that means dropping the points on them by 10 and taking away their PF. Maybe that means opening up the armory door a little wider (more heavy weapons). I am not trying to make an unstoppable deathstar of doom, just trying to make the way that you build a "decent" list reflect how the army is described in the fluff. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326695.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
Maybe its just me but I just don't see how adding a MM or grav-cannon to 1 or 2 termie squads would really help with firepower.

I would much rather be able to take combi- weapons like chaos or SW termies. Or change SoD to affect storm bolters

I like the knights they are a great anvil unit but they must have a landraider imo so that hurts because a landraider is the same points as a termie squad with a heavy further limiting model count. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326757.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
I really don't know. They're really strong. Not being able to reliably Split-Fire and utterly destroy both targets isn't really an issue. Plus, those eight guys with Storm Bolters are still doing nearly 10 wounds on average against T3, equal to about 21 regular bolter shots. If one took a Heavy Flamer and one took an Assault/Plasma Cannon, you could reliably Split Fire and perform multiple tasks in that single strike, practically wiping out a max-sized Brood and, with the one Assault Cannon, getting a 10% chance to outright destroy AV12 in the same turn or cause a wound to a T6 MC.

Honestly, I think they're fine. The fluff simply states that they deep strike and tear into their enemies with bolter-fire before finishing them off in close combat. With the quality of twin-linked, it really does do that justice. Heck, Imperial Fists only get to re-roll 1s; good, yes, but if you went by the fluff you'd think they'd all be firing twin-linked Rapid Fire 10 Bolters from the hip at BS6, or that every Salamander can get a flamer or meltagun and wears their own personally-crafted set of Artificer Armour.

I've read a bunch of reviews of the unit, and I've seen nothing but complete praise for Vengeful Strike.

EDIT: I read something about Knights having a "Shield Wall" ability the turn they deep strike. I imagine it's a 2++, or something? If so, that sounds awfully useful. Furthermore, if you want to remove their* power fists, I'd say reduce their points by about 7-10.

EDIT2: * Deathwing Terminators.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6326952.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing HF idea is that we scatter 33% of the time (unless in Belial's squad) and that most likely means you don't get your large number of hits as described. If I have 1850 points to play with, I only get about 30-35 models on the field. That is 3 units of 10 man strong terminators to put it in perspective, you can take about 100 marines for that same 1850 points for a LOT more dakka. I know that not many people would take 100 foot slogging marines, but it is simply a firepower comparison to points. It is a hell of a lot harder to kill those 100 marines than it is to kill 30 terminators simply in model weight, which is at the crux of what I am trying to solve, model weight. Not enough little plastic guns with guns...

Quality of twin linked is great, it's quantity that we are having problems with. Imperial fists may only reroll 1s, but they roll more dice to begin with. The more I run dice simulations and the few games we played with the rules, Heavy 3 SB when you DS is a nice solution...

Shield wall makes them T5 as long as they are base to base with 2 other "shield wall" people.

So my current proposal:
SB is Heavy 3 when you DS.
Terminator Squads loose natural PF and 10 points, may buy back PF for 10 points.
No penalty for keeping all Deathwing in reserve (implied in rules, just making it black and bone white)
Maybe gain your second heavy weapon at 7 bodies?
I still want the Multimelta as an option for lets say 15 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All of the suggestions given so far would be great ideas for slight alterations to DW. I also just found perusing the codex that HQs in Terminator armor get access to "Terminator Wargear" which only has one entry. Replace Storm Bolter with combi-flamer, plas, melta for 6 points. What if we opened this up to all terminator models, maybe just sergeants? Thoughts?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6328108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6328108.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing SS/TH, feel no pain honour guard to soak damage on the first turn? Fire magnet and bikers with scout for no scatter, sounds tottaly deathwing for me...

The CC unit teleport in near the enemies, the shoot gets far away (24"), shootsy and soak up, if the enemy dont kill the deathstart they will assault next turn and wreack havoc, if the enemy attack the deathstar, a new set of termies comes second turn and tear the enemy appart with twin-linked SB+heavy plasma...

Well, i would ever go for raven wing if DA, but this seens like a solid strategy... (and bring a Land Raider with you).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6329994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6329994.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
34 ppms the way they are would be fine,

just giving them 2 heavy weapons options from the get go would be perfectly fine. (it was fine in 3rd/4th it would be fine now)

Storm bolter be included with Banner of devestation
or maybe even better with banner of devestation
maybe heavy 6-8? (1 bolter is slavo 2/4 so 4 shots at 24 and the stormbolter is basically two bolters, so we skip the twin-linked for a massive DAKKA boost).

weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

heavy weapons retain their standar cost


All of these to keep their points low, I know they are terminators but terminators are over costed in a world of AP 2 spam.


Now lets see what we could get with the above
lets say 5 Deathwing terminators
the 4 that can drop their powerfists for stormshields
and they take 2 CML

total cost 220 pts

now lets say they are within 6 inches of Deathwing commandsquad that has the same loadout as them (except that one is an apoth) an additional 315 points woops forgot Belial so 505 pts
now for 725 pts you would get

8, str 8 ap 3 missile shots

or 66-88 Str 4 ap 5 shots (depending if Banner made stormbolter heavy 6-8)

Keep in mind that all of these units would be 2+ 3++ (except for belial(4++), apoth, sgt)

is 725pts for 11 models to dish out that much dakka to much?

not really when compaired to what standard marines/anyone else can bring in that point range
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6330111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6330111.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Why not using a big SS/TH, feel no pain honour guard to soak damage on the first turn?
That is about 500-525 points
 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Fire magnet and bikers with scout for no scatter, sounds tottaly deathwing for me...
A Ravenwing squad of bikers that will work like that is about another 200, lets take 2 for redundency because 1 will get shot of the table by tau with firepower to spare and we want a beacon around if we go second. We also need two troop choices to make it "legal" so lets just take two farily basic Terminator Squads, total so far is about 1400 (23 models)
 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

The CC unit teleport in near the enemies, the shoot gets far away (24"), shootsy and soak up
So Belial joins the Deathstar and show up point blank, the two troop terminators DS with no scatter (beacons) about 24" from enemy and light them up with their 32 Storm Bolter and 8 Assault Cannon shots (28.5 SB hits and 7 AC hits). The bikers shoot their bolters for 21.3 hits (assuming no special weapons)
 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
if the enemy dont kill the deathstart they will assault next turn and wreack havoc, if the enemy attack the deathstar, a new set of termies comes second turn and tear the enemy appart with twin-linked SB+heavy plasma...
So we now add another Terminator Squad with a Plasma Cannon to the mix to bring our grand total up to 1650 about, and why are we bringing him in turn 2? Wouldn't it be nice to shoot that plasma cannon turn 1? That new squad opens up with the other terminators (assuming no casualties) for a grand total of 28.3 SB, 5 AC hits and one small blast of plasma. So turn two we have laid down 57.1 SB hits, 12 AC hits 42.6 TL bolter hits from bikers, one small blast plasma and charged with our deathstar. All of this assuming no casualties.

Note that the bikers dakka just as well model/model as the terminators for HALF THE COST and a 3+armor/5+cover/scout/hit and run/T5 model. Hell Drakes and Tau not withstanding, there are not many units that can ignore both of those saves and the bikers have the advantage of mobility and T5 over the terminators let alone scout. There is a reason that Ravenwing is a thing right now and not Deathwing my friend.
 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Well, i would ever go for raven wing if DA, but this seens like a solid strategy... (and bring a Land Raider with you).
So adding in a LRC to the mix will put us at about 2000 points with 16 terminators, 12 bikers and a land raider, 28 models and an AV 14 transport tank that isn't transporting anything. If we put deathwing knights into that LRC like we should if we take an LRC then we are over 2250 and playing in apocolypse with 33 models, a single land raider and only 10 scoring MODELS in 2 units.

Scoring bodies matter in 6th edition, you must find a way to make your scoring units viable in your army now. Taking 2 minimum scout squads is no longer an option to win in 6th edition, they will die early and then you have nothing to claim objectives. Deathwing have very durable scoring units, but if you only have 2 units of 10 terminators I can use maybe 1000 points of my army to kill them pretty well and win the game by surviving the remainder of your forces. In order to have scoring left at the end you have to have weight of models to survive what your opponent will throw at them. Right now Terminators are overpriced for what you get, we can cheapen them up or tack on more rules but 10 scoring models isn't gonna cut it in 6th edition. A 20% reduction in price is a good start IMO, it sounds severe but consider what you can buy in your list with an extra 40 points a squad. You could straight up make every terminator squad you had 6 men instead of 5 and have points left over for maybe making him TH/SS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ninjacommando wrote:
I know they are terminators but terminators are over costed in a world of AP 2 spam.
In the current meta I would make terminators cheaper and the 3++ more expensive. Say 34 points a terminator and charge them a full 20 for TH/SS. It's the 3++ that is FAR more valuable than the 2+ in this plasma crazy world. I thought plasma was a "rare" technology that only Ryza really knows how to make right? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6330524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6330524.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing ppm for TH/SS terminators? ehh noo if you want terminators to be a viable army list their overall cost needs to be kept low.

34 ppm free weapon upgrades and still charging them for heavy weapons is fine]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6331314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6331314.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Ninjacommando wrote:
so 54 ppm for TH/SS terminators? ehh noo if you want terminators to be a viable army list their overall cost needs to be kept low.

34 ppm free weapon upgrades and still charging them for heavy weapons is fine


I appologize, I meant 10 points for TH/SS to bring them back up to what a current Terminator costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realized during a test run of the latest iteration of the rules we have been discussing, that I did not include one other piece of addition that we were using for Deathwing. The piece of "Army Wargear" called an Orbital Beacon. Basically the fluff is that if there are not Ravenwing around to home in on, the cruiser in orbit will shoot a special round that contains a type of broad spectrum homing beacon for the cruisers teleportarium to lock onto for more accurate delivery of Deathwing.

Orbital Beacon (50 points)
Only one Orbital Beacon may be taken per primary detachment. Units in Terminator Armor arriving via Deathwing Assault within 12" of an Orbital Beacon only scatter 1d6. After forces have been deployed including infiltrators but before scout moved, place a suitable counter on the tabletop and roll for scatter. If a "Hit" is rolled, the Orbital Beacon still scatters the full 2d6 in the direction noted on the "Hit" symbol on the scatter die. Any unit that suffers a Deep Strike Mishap while attempting to land within the area of effect from the Orbital Beacon may choose to suffer a "Delayed" result instead of rolling on the Deep Strike Mishap table.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6332882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6332882.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing op. But being strictly deathwing with no black or green like you first started, i feel they need this boost. I do not think it makes sense for them to be able to take a heavy bolter, multi melta, or an auto cannon though. Las cannon and grav Cannons are iffy to but i think would look cool :p.

I would totally allow them to have 2 special weapons per 5. Assault cannons, plasma cannons, heavy flamers, and deathwing missile launchers! Deathwing need to have plasma cannons dark angels are the epitome of them.

Also people missed that vengeful strike only applies to storm bolters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6334739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6334739.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing TH+SS)
Deathwing Knights: *WARNING, DO NOT HAVE TO BE TAKEN IN A LAND RAIDER, ARE TOUGHNESS 5 WITH A 2+ AND A 3++* An amazing unit, with amazing power mauls which do not strike last. Nothing wrong with these guys.
Command Squad: Acts as a fantastic Deathstar, same as the regular termys, give them power weapons at -10pts and +1S on their SBs at 10pts. 2 special weapons per squad. (Must be upgraded with power fists to take TH+SS)
Belial: Also nothing wrong with this guy, give him a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield, put him in a squad of TH+SS Termys and you're golden.
Other ideas being bandied around: -10pts on all units. No, 27pts is too low for a terminator. You're paying 14pts up from a tac marine for deep strike, a 2+ save, a power fist, a storm bolter, relentless, inner circle, split fire and the ability to take stuff like CMLs... Pure logic.
2 special weapons per 5: Squads of 10 Terminators with 4 plasma cannons/heavy flamers/assault cannons/CMLs. Picture this in your mind. A unit that can split fire at vehicles, put out 4-8 blasts per turn etc..
TH/SS Termys taking special weapons: Just.. Just no. Combined with 2 special weapons per 5 that's 4 heavy flamers charging with 10 TH/SS or worse, 10 pairs of lightning claws with a 2+ save.
Banner: Would be a good idea, and you could probably lower the points if it only applies to terminators due to the low model count.
Combi-bolters: I don't understand how this would work.. Chaos Terminators are the only terminators that take combi-bolters, all you're doing is saying 'I want what Chaos Terminators have which makes them special'. It's the same as Space Marine players wanting Obliterators; GW gave them Centurions. Be careful what you wish for.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335044.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
just give them power weapons for christ sake
great idea, so treat un-PF-ed termies as wielding power mauls. Only issue here is besides the turbocharging, that is the Knights job...
Then, give them another 10 pt upgrade which ups the strength on their Storm Bolter by 1
so you want me to pay 10 pts for a slower firing, and worse AP Heavy Bolter... A normal squad of 3+ tacticals can take an HB for 10 points, yes we get the TL first turn and it could be on every guy. However the major point of this whole thing is getting more models on the field or making them better for the points, I would rather buy 1/4 of a new termy than take a 10 pt S+1 to my SB personally.
must be upgraded with power to take TH/SS
can't we just add the cost of the PF into the TH/SS instead, otherwise they take an upgrade just to replace it with another upgrade which seems silly to me.

Deathwing Knights: Agreed
Command Squad: Agreed, and you are saying that 2 specials per 5 in a squad for everyone right? not just command squads?
Belial: I always thought that he should be able to take a special weapon, you know with his 5+ precise shot and all... seems like a great place to put an assault cannon replacing his SB! But that is entirely for a different discussion about how GW thinks the best way for people to hurt other people 40,000 years in the future is to walk up and hit them with a really cool sword sometimes the shooty guys just shoots them and move on...
-10 pts on all units, No, 27 pts is too low for a terminator. You're paying 14pts up from a tac marine for deep strike, a 2+ save, a power fist, a storm bolter, relentless, inner circle, split fire and the ability to take stuff like CMLs... Pure logic
When i was stating 10 pts per model it was in reference to taking away their PF, sorry if anyone got confused there.
2 special weapons per 5: Squads of 10 Terminators with 4 plasma cannons/heavy flamers/assault cannons/CMLs. Picture this in your mind. A unit that can split fire at vehicles, put out 4-8 blasts per turn etc..
I can't tell if you are in favor of this idea or against it. Personally I would rather keep the 1/5 rule, lower points through the PF deduction, get more bodies and allow more special weapons to fill the cracks. But the ability to pack a few DOZEN assault cannons into a list is an entertaining thought
TH/SS Termys taking special weapons: Just.. Just no. Combined with 2 special weapons per 5 that's 4 heavy flamers charging with 10 TH/SS or worse, 10 pairs of lightning claws with a 2+ save.
I totally agree, mixing and matching opens the door to everyone having 3++ with or without a TH. Although possible through modeling/converting, it is not "Codex Compliant"
Banner: Would be a good idea, and you could probably lower the points if it only applies to terminators due to the low model count.
I would like Terminators to have something of their own, after all they are the 1st company. Borrowing what is often considered the "real" Ravenwing banner isn't special to me...
Combi-bolters: I don't understand how this would work.. Chaos Terminators are the only terminators that take combi-bolters, all you're doing is saying 'I want what Chaos Terminators have which makes them special'. It's the same as Space Marine players wanting Obliterators; GW gave them Centurions. Be careful what you wish for.
There have been a few different ways that "combi" has been talked about. One was to get "combi-plas/melta/flamer" storm bolters, and the other was the legal term of combi bolter (S4,AP5,24", Rapid fire, Twin Linked). It would be neat to have one shot special weapons, but I am leaning towards no on that. Look to 2/5 heavy weapons to fill the gap instead.

I still really want the MM to be a Terminator heavy weapon. Without it there is no real tank hunter in the ranged weapons. I am not sure how to remedy this without just handing them melta... Maybe let the Sarges take the fancy combi-melta stormbolter thingy? Would you stick the melta barrel underneath? On top? Wrist mounted Bobba Fett style? My meta has a decent amount of tanks still so I may be jaded in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also people missed that vengeful strike only applies to storm bolters.
ohh, yeah, rules reading skills failed there, my bad!

Thanks for the support! I am kinda surprised at how many people have been against opening up the armory door a little more for heavy weapons. Do you have any specific reasons you can share? Modeling it wouldn't be too hard as logn as you got a hold of a devestator kit ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335429.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Frozen Ocean wrote:


So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing.


You're twin linking Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons, and CMLs, all of which are garbage heavy weapons. In addition, at 1,500 points you can cram a maximum of 5 into an army. How many heavy weapons are other armies bringing to the table at a similar points level?

DWTs need something to be balanced. A 6 pt discount per model, and a 50 pt discount on Belial, would be a nice start. Before anyone has a heart attack over this, consider that Belial was 60 points cheaper in the last codex. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335464.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335464.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Frozen Ocean wrote:


So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing.


You're twin linking Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons, and CMLs, all of which are garbage heavy weapons. In addition, at 1,500 points you can cram a maximum of 5 into an army. How many heavy weapons are other armies bringing to the table at a similar points level?

DWTs need something to be balanced. A 6 pt discount per model, and a 50 pt discount on Belial, would be a nice start. Before anyone has a heart attack over this, consider that Belial was 60 points cheaper in the last codex.



6 pts would bring them down to 38 points each. that is still really over costed.

34 ppm would be fine with a Storm bolter/powerfist and Free weapon upgrades (the ones i listed last page)
keeping the cost of heavy weapons and making it just 2 from the get go (not 2 per 5)

the storm bolter (via an improved banner) is where most of their killing power should come from
the heavy weapons should be there to take on MC and vehicles

A Cheaper Belial would be better, Along with "If your warlord is wearing Terminator armour, Deathwing terminators may be taken as Troops instead of elite"

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6335665.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
You're twin linking Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons, and CMLs, all of which are garbage heavy weapons. In addition, at 1,500 points you can cram a maximum of 5 into an army. How many heavy weapons are other armies bringing to the table at a similar points level?
This, all of this. The only ranged weapons available to Deathwing Terminators are Storm Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Plasma Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers. Once again, this is why I want to add a few to this list that will plug gaps in the ranged weapons available. Taking 2 per 5 is one solution, being able to take 2 straight away is another way. I think I like the 2 weapons straight out of the gate best.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
DWTs need something to be balanced. A 6 pt discount per model
Dropping the PF to a "maul" as the base CCW and 10 points off a model helps with costs while keeping the GW "standard" points in mind. Any model that had a PF may buy it back for 10 points, putting the cost back where it started in the codex. In the end I see this cheapening up shooty squads by 30 points as they will have 40 points off (not sarge) and then probibly buy back one power fist for 10 points. These 30 points are about what another termie body will cost with the above changes (34 points).

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
50 pt discount on Belial, would be a nice start. Before anyone has a heart attack over this, consider that Belial was 60 points cheaper in the last codex.
ninjacommando wrote:A Cheaper Belial would be better, Along with "If your warlord is wearing Terminator armor, Deathwing terminators may be taken as Troops instead of elite
Both of these are driving at the same point, we have a high "cost of entry" for a full terminator list and besides the ever popular TH/SS Belial, his other options are underwhelming for his points. However TH/SS Terminator DA Captain "from scratch" (175) compared to Belial is only another 15 points for Belial's additional special rules (5+ precise shots, no scatter on DS). Most of this difference is that you pay "double" for the TH because a PF is included in the Terminator upgrade cost and then you pay full price for your TH. Building the same model in the SM codex is much cheaper (150) because of the layout of their terminator wargear list, let alone they can take burning blade/shield eternal if you want to pay 225 for your captain. These prices don't include the "premium" we pay for the Deathwing special rules (4 pts/model on normal guys and apparently 10 pts/model on an IC) but I am dissappointed that they didn't get their terminator wargear layout correct until the SM codex... If we allow any HQ in Terminator Armor to be your only HQ, it doesn't feel Deathwing. Belial = Deathwing IMO. So instead of comming up with an alternative or cheapening him up (he isn't THAT much more expensive for his special rules) lets give him better options so TH/SS isn't the only way we ever see him. For starters, this guy has dedicated the rest of his genetically altered life to hunting down The Fallen, why don't all of his weapons have Bane of the Traitor (When a weapon with this special rules is used to attack a unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the weapon's AP improves by 1 to a maximum of 1)? Lets help a guy out fluff and rules wise by helping him kill the traitors! In his "standard" Sword of Silence/SB, lets replace the SB with Foe Smiter(S4, AP4, 24" range, Assault 3, Master-crafted). For the Lightning Claws, make them S+1 Lightning Claws. Most people will probibly still take TH/SS but at least there are now reasons to take his other forms.

Please let me know what you think about these additional changes. I will put up a summary of what we are currently considering for an all Terminator (no ravenwing or standard troops) Deathwing list for Dark Angels before the end of the day.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6336578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6336578.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
holymauler wrote:
Let me look at this one by one.
just give them power weapons for christ sake
great idea, so treat un-PF-ed termies as wielding power mauls. Only issue here is besides the turbocharging, that is the Knights job...
Then, give them another 10 pt upgrade which ups the strength on their Storm Bolter by 1
so you want me to pay 10 pts for a slower firing, and worse AP Heavy Bolter... A normal squad of 3+ tacticals can take an HB for 10 points, yes we get the TL first turn and it could be on every guy. However the major point of this whole thing is getting more models on the field or making them better for the points, I would rather buy 1/4 of a new termy than take a 10 pt S+1 to my SB personally.
must be upgraded with power to take TH/SS
can't we just add the cost of the PF into the TH/SS instead, otherwise they take an upgrade just to replace it with another upgrade which seems silly to me.

Deathwing Knights: Agreed
Command Squad: Agreed, and you are saying that 2 specials per 5 in a squad for everyone right? not just command squads?
Belial: I always thought that he should be able to take a special weapon, you know with his 5+ precise shot and all... seems like a great place to put an assault cannon replacing his SB! But that is entirely for a different discussion about how GW thinks the best way for people to hurt other people 40,000 years in the future is to walk up and hit them with a really cool sword sometimes the shooty guys just shoots them and move on...
-10 pts on all units, No, 27 pts is too low for a terminator. You're paying 14pts up from a tac marine for deep strike, a 2+ save, a power fist, a storm bolter, relentless, inner circle, split fire and the ability to take stuff like CMLs... Pure logic
When i was stating 10 pts per model it was in reference to taking away their PF, sorry if anyone got confused there.
2 special weapons per 5: Squads of 10 Terminators with 4 plasma cannons/heavy flamers/assault cannons/CMLs. Picture this in your mind. A unit that can split fire at vehicles, put out 4-8 blasts per turn etc..
I can't tell if you are in favor of this idea or against it. Personally I would rather keep the 1/5 rule, lower points through the PF deduction, get more bodies and allow more special weapons to fill the cracks. But the ability to pack a few DOZEN assault cannons into a list is an entertaining thought
TH/SS Termys taking special weapons: Just.. Just no. Combined with 2 special weapons per 5 that's 4 heavy flamers charging with 10 TH/SS or worse, 10 pairs of lightning claws with a 2+ save.
I totally agree, mixing and matching opens the door to everyone having 3++ with or without a TH. Although possible through modeling/converting, it is not "Codex Compliant"
Banner: Would be a good idea, and you could probably lower the points if it only applies to terminators due to the low model count.
I would like Terminators to have something of their own, after all they are the 1st company. Borrowing what is often considered the "real" Ravenwing banner isn't special to me...
Combi-bolters: I don't understand how this would work.. Chaos Terminators are the only terminators that take combi-bolters, all you're doing is saying 'I want what Chaos Terminators have which makes them special'. It's the same as Space Marine players wanting Obliterators; GW gave them Centurions. Be careful what you wish for.
There have been a few different ways that "combi" has been talked about. One was to get "combi-plas/melta/flamer" storm bolters, and the other was the legal term of combi bolter (S4,AP5,24", Rapid fire, Twin Linked). It would be neat to have one shot special weapons, but I am leaning towards no on that. Look to 2/5 heavy weapons to fill the gap instead.

I still really want the MM to be a Terminator heavy weapon. Without it there is no real tank hunter in the ranged weapons. I am not sure how to remedy this without just handing them melta... Maybe let the Sarges take the fancy combi-melta stormbolter thingy? Would you stick the melta barrel underneath? On top? Wrist mounted Bobba Fett style? My meta has a decent amount of tanks still so I may be jaded in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also people missed that vengeful strike only applies to storm bolters.
ohh, yeah, rules reading skills failed there, my bad!

Thanks for the support! I am kinda surprised at how many people have been against opening up the armory door a little more for heavy weapons. Do you have any specific reasons you can share? Modeling it wouldn't be too hard as logn as you got a hold of a devestator kit

Point 1 in response: Deathwing Knights also get Storm Shields, Wall of Shields etc.. That is what makes them special, not power mauls.
2: Fine then make it 5pts, +1 strength is absolutely worth it, especially considering MEQ is one of the most popular non-meta armies.
3: Yeah, that was just me trying to math at.. Too early xD Agreed with you on that point.
4: Yes 1 special per 5 is what I want in terminators, I'm completely against it. Imagine this: 4 Heavy Flamers in a 10-man squad, full of blokes with power swords charging into a squad of.. Anything infantry. You'll do more damage than lightning claws, and make them completely useless.
5: You can put a dozen assault cannons into a terminator list, you just need 60 terminators, them's the rules. That's like giving Tac marines the ability to take 2 ML/LC/HB..
6: Okay then, make a special character that does this like the Ethereal, a Captain/adaptation of Belial which gives his unit and any Terminator units within 12" Twin-Linked or something.
7: Let the sergeant take Krak grenades, or give him a power fist for free. You don't need melta to crack tanks. Give the Sarge Krak Grenades or something, or alternatively I would go for something along the lines of: In stead of taking a special weapon (CML/PC/HF/AC) the squad may instead take combi-weapons (at a price of course).

Sound good?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6337822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6337822.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
Add to ability "Deathwing Assault":
Units choosing to make a Deathwing Assault do not count against the number of units held in reserve at the beginning of the game. If all the controlling players units start in reserve, the player is not subject to losing the game during the entire first turn due to having no models on the field. If a unit making a Deathwing Assault suffers a Mishap, they may always choose to suffer a Delayed result instead of roll on the Mishap Table.

Add to ability "Vengeful Strike":
On the turn a model with this special rule and armed with a Storm Bolter arrives from Deep Strike, change its profile to Heavy 3.

Add to Wargear:
(Special Issue Wargear) Orbital Beacon (50 points)
Only one Orbital Beacon may be taken per primary detachment. Units in Terminator Armor arriving via Deathwing Assault within 12" of an Orbital Beacon only scatter 1d6. After forces have been deployed including infiltrators but before scout moves, place a suitable 1” diameter counter on the tabletop and roll for scatter. If a "Hit" is rolled, the Orbital Beacon still scatters the full 2d6 in the direction noted on the "Hit" symbol on the scatter die.

(Terminator Wargear) Terminator Gauntlet (base cost)
A Terminator Gauntlet is visually nearly identical to a Power Fist but contains miniaturized version of the Power Field Generators found in its more destructive sibling. This makes the weapon much less unwieldy to use while still enhancing the strength of the wielder. While a Power Fist rends infantry armor as easily as tank armor, a Terminator Gauntlet is meant specifically for killing infantry. Statistics as a Power Maul.

Replace the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry with the following:
Statlines remain the same.
Points:180
Wargear:
Terminator Armor
Storm Bolter
Terminator Gauntlet (Deathwing Terminator only)
Power Sword (Deathwing Sergeant only)
Special Rules remain the same.

Options:
May include up to five additional Deathwing Terminators (34 pts/model)
Any model (including Sergeant) can replace both their SB and melee weapon (Gauntlet or Sword) with:
Pair of Lightning Claws (10 pts)
SB/PF (10 pts)
SB/Chainfist (15 pts)
TH/SS (15 pts)
For every 5 Deathwing Terminators in the squad may take one of the below options:
Replace SB with HB (5 pts)
Replace SB with HF (10 pts)
Replace SB with Plas Cannon (15 pts)
Replace SB with MM (15 pts)
Replace SB with Assault Cannon (20 pts)
Take a CML (25 pts)
Replace SB with Gravcannon (35 pts)
Deathwing Terminator Squads may select a Land Raider of any type as a Dedicated Transport. This vehicle must be given the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade.

A sample army list similar to the one I showed in my original post (1500):

Belial (TH/SS)
Orbital Beacon

Deathwing Command Squad
Deathwing Champion
Deathwing Apothecary
Deathwing Terminator (HF/PF)
Deathwing Terminator (TH/SS & Deathwing Banner)
Deathwing Terminator (TH/SS)

2X Deathwing Terminator Squad (5 man)
Power Fist, Assault Cannon

Deathwing Terminator Squad (5 man)
Power Fist, Grav Cannon

Deathwing Terminator Squad (7 man)
4 TH/SS, 1 Multi-Melta (4 TH/SS, 1 MM/Gauntlet, 1 SB/Gauntlet)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6338393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6338393.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing 40k

Your trying to Fix Terminators But keeping them at the same point values that they are now.

The First Step for Fixing them is a Flat price reduction for what they bring now

34 points Power Fist, Storm bolter - Done

Paying for weapon upgrades... No the point is keeping them Low in cost, Making them pay 15 points for a TH/SS would bring them up to there Current price.... Making it a free upgrade or cost 5 points at most would be okay but would still be pricy


They do not need heavy bolters or Multi Meltas on them. They Don't bring enough of them to matter

Having 2 Heavy weapons and only 2 heavy weapons from the get Go is Fine.

"Up to two terminators may select one of the following"
-Hflamer, Assault cannon, Plasma Cannon, CML
Done

They are not Chaos space marines and do not need to start with a power weapon and storm bolter, they are loyalist and start with a Powerfist and Storm bolter.

Your New Vengeful strike adds little to the firepower that current deathwing bring.

with a squad of 5 your getting 4 extra shots (having a heavy weapon). vs MEQ thats.4 more dead.. the next turn those deathwing terminators are going to get shot to hell by everything the enemy army has, and will probably be removed from the field.

Deathwing stormbolters assault 3

vengful strike doubles their rate of fire of Deathwing Stormbolters and makes all other weapons Twinlinked for the turn they arrive from deep strike

5 guys (no heavy weapon or CML), thats 5 storm bolters (with the above assault 3) would be 30 bolter shots once they enter, returning to normal the following turn getting 15 shots. (of you have a heavy weapon or a mixed unit with melee weapons its lower)

compaired to a Tac squad with bolters in a drop pod
(they're going to be within 12 inches)
20 shots the turn they arrive, and 20 shots every turn after.(your probably going to have a special weapon/heavy weapon in said squad, so 16 shots every turn)

Banner of dev needs to affect storm bolters and make them out preform regular bolters, your paying a Premium so you need to get something extra.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6338460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6338460.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Ninjacommando wrote:
I don't know why you want to make Stormbolter Powerfist Terminators 44 points each.. terminators loyalist/Traitors alike are all OVER costed. They do not live as long as they did in previous editions of 40k

Your trying to Fix Terminators But keeping them at the same point values that they are now.

The First Step for Fixing them is a Flat price reduction for what they bring now

34 points Power Fist, Storm bolter - Done

Paying for weapon upgrades... No the point is keeping them Low in cost, Making them pay 15 points for a TH/SS would bring them up to there Current price.... Making it a free upgrade or cost 5 points at most would be okay but would still be pricy


They do not need heavy bolters or Multi Meltas on them. They Don't bring enough of them to matter

Having 2 Heavy weapons and only 2 heavy weapons from the get Go is Fine.

"Up to two terminators may select one of the following"
-Hflamer, Assault cannon, Plasma Cannon, CML
Done

They are not Chaos space marines and do not need to start with a power weapon and storm bolter, they are loyalist and start with a Powerfist and Storm bolter.

Your New Vengeful strike adds little to the firepower that current deathwing bring.

with a squad of 5 your getting 4 extra shots (having a heavy weapon). vs MEQ thats.4 more dead.. the next turn those deathwing terminators are going to get shot to hell by everything the enemy army has, and will probably be removed from the field.

Deathwing stormbolters assault 3

vengful strike doubles their rate of fire of Deathwing Stormbolters and makes all other weapons Twinlinked for the turn they arrive from deep strike

5 guys (no heavy weapon or CML), thats 5 storm bolters (with the above assault 3) would be 30 bolter shots once they enter, returning to normal the following turn getting 15 shots. (of you have a heavy weapon or a mixed unit with melee weapons its lower)

compaired to a Tac squad with bolters in a drop pod
(they're going to be within 12 inches)
20 shots the turn they arrive, and 20 shots every turn after.(your probably going to have a special weapon/heavy weapon in said squad, so 16 shots every turn)

Banner of dev needs to affect storm bolters and make them out preform regular bolters, your paying a Premium so you need to get something extra.


You have a premium of 21pts for a 2+ armour save, an assault 3 boltgun when they come in, deep strike, inner circle, a power weapon, an extra attack, relentless, the ability to take TH/SS, lightning claws, CMLs, heavy flamers and autocannons... And chainfists.
...
...
...
No, just no, that's overpowered.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340532.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
they fire power terminators bring is gak.

White scar bikes pay
21 ppm for T5, 3+, 4+ jink for moving (3+ if turbo boosting), twinlinked bolters, 2 Grav guns, and those 2 grav guns out perform anything terminators can bring), Scout (because your bringing Kos'Sarro), 1+ strength hammer of wrath, Frag and Krak grenades, Auto pass dangerous terrian tests, Hit and Run, All of that on a relentless platform that can move 12" a turn (24 with turbo boost)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340582.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
Elites

Dw close support squad "nemesis" strike force
Stats as per normal dw unit
Wargear: power weapon (sword or maul only), special issue ammunition, terminator armour
Specail rules: dw assault, (no vengeful strike)
40pts per model 5-10

Heavy support
Vengaence support unit
Stats as per dw terminators, sarge has signum
Wargear: pw as above, heavy bolter
Options: May upgrade heavy bolter to any 1 of the following
Mm 20pts
Lascannon 20pts
Assault cannon 15pts
Plasma cannon 15pts
Any model may have a cyclone missile launcher for 20pts per model.
Specail rules: dw assault, furious barrage
Furios barrage: any unit with at least 3 cyclone may forgoe it's shooting to make the following attack
Range 48
Str 8
Ap2
Ordance 1 large blast
Any unit that uses this attack may not charge this turn or fire ow]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340693.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Formosa wrote:
I tried this a while back and here is what I came up with, these have been play tested quite thoroughly and the points are accurate for what they bring

Elites

Dw close support squad "nemesis" strike force
Stats as per normal dw unit
Wargear: power weapon (sword or maul only), special issue ammunition, terminator armour
Specail rules: dw assault, (no vengeful strike)
40pts per model 5-10

Heavy support
Vengaence support unit
Stats as per dw terminators, sarge has signum
Wargear: pw as above, heavy bolter
Options: May upgrade heavy bolter to any 1 of the following
Mm 20pts
Lascannon 20pts
Assault cannon 15pts
Plasma cannon 15pts
Any model may have a cyclone missile launcher for 20pts per model.
Specail rules: dw assault, furious barrage
Furios barrage: any unit with at least 3 cyclone may forgoe it's shooting to make the following attack
Range 48
Str 8
Ap2
Ordance 1 large blast
Any unit that uses this attack may not charge this turn or fire ow

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340788.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 BrotherOfBone wrote:

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.


you're right keeping them at the same point value with the same abilties while every other Troop choice from every 6th ed codex can outperform them at half their cost.

Yup you're fixing Deathwing alright.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340816.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340816.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Ninjacommando wrote:
 BrotherOfBone wrote:

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.


you're right keeping them at the same point value with the same abilties while every other Troop choice from every 6th ed codex can outperform them at half their cost.

Yup you're fixing Deathwing alright.



30pts base for the termy, dw assault 5pts, special issue ammo 5pts, how would you have priced them?

30pts for dev termy, 5pts for heavy bolter, 5pts for dw assault, how much would you have priced them?

These costs are with a year of playtesting, these are no arbitrary and off the top of my head, for75pts per model we get
2+ save, plasma cannon and a cyclone that fires on the move, for 80 we get a lascannon. And cyclone and a inv save, hmm and gw must be with me in this as the cents are similarly costed but boosted in other ways


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340851.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Ninjacommando wrote:
 BrotherOfBone wrote:

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.


you're right keeping them at the same point value with the same abilties while every other Troop choice from every 6th ed codex can outperform them at half their cost.

Yup you're fixing Deathwing alright.

Please feel free to read any of my other posts, because you clearly haven't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340883.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Formosa wrote:



30pts base for the termy, dw assault 5pts, special issue ammo 5pts, how would you have priced them?

30pts for dev termy, 5pts for heavy bolter, 5pts for dw assault, how much would you have priced them?

These costs are with a year of playtesting, these are no arbitrary and off the top of my head, for75pts per model we get
2+ save, plasma cannon and a cyclone that fires on the move, for 80 we get a lascannon. And cyclone and a inv save, hmm and gw must be with me in this as the cents are similarly costed but boosted in other ways




Your list is fine,

Deathwing terminator
Base 34 points
Power Fist, Storm bolter,
Weapon upgrades (chain fist, TH/SS free)
weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

Up to Two terminators may take the following
-Plasma cannon, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, CML (these keep their Codex cost)

Storm bolter changed to assault 3

Vengful strike changed to Double the rate of Fire of storm bolters the turn you arrive from deep strike

Banner of Devestation effect storm bolters, heavy 6 (it only has a 6" bubble from the banner itself so get more shots because your going to be AP 2 pieplate bait the next turn)

Currently you pay 44 points for a 2+ model that shots 2 times with a Str 4 ap 5 weapon at 24 inches

for 42 points I can have a Crisis suit that shoots 8 times at 18 inches with a str 5 ap 5 weapons, has 2 wounds and better mobility.

current Squad of Deathwing terminators cost 220 points Base before upgrades
3 crisis suits all with 2 plasma each and 5 gun drones 216

crisis suits alone will remove ~3.333 terminators a turn
Drones will remove .83 terminators a turn

4.16 terminators will die a turn

Terminators will remove 1.111 Wounds a turn agianst the crisis suits

current Squad of Deathwing terminators cost 220 points Base before upgrades
3 crisis suits with 2 Burst cannons and 6 gun drones, 1 drone controller, 206 points
Crisis suits will remove 1.3333 Terminators a turn
drones will remove 1.185185 terminators a turn

roughly 2.5 terminators will die a turn

Terminators will remove 1.111 wounds a turn agianst crisis suits

Lets look at white scar Bikes

current Squad of Deathwing terminators cost 220 points Base before upgrades
6 Bikes, 1 attack bike, 2 grav guns, 1 combi -grav 221
8 tl Bolter shots, .59 terminators removed
1 HB, .22 terminators removed
9 grav gun shots, 3.3333 terminators removed

Bike squad will remove 4.14 terminators a turn

10 stormbolter shots, .74 Bikes will be removed a turn

Eldar bikes
Deathwing 220 points
200 points for 10 jetbikes and 3 surikun cannons
14 TL shuriken (4.14 reg wounds, 2.07 ap 2 wounds) .691 + 1.379 = 2.07 terminators removed a turn
9 Shuriken cannon shots (4 reg wounds , 1 ap 2 wound) .6666+ .6666 = 1.333 terminators removed

3.403 terminators removed a turn

10 stormbolter shots 1.111 Eldar Bikes removed a turn.

At roughly Equal points each of these squads have a killing power 3x -4x times greater than that of Deathwing terminators.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340962.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing I like your idea but I was just trying to adjust instead of invent. If I start inventing it would become hard to get people to play against it without whiping out my spreadsheets of math hammer and a 30 minute discussion about "it isn't broken I swear". Other people I have talked to at the FLGS were very leary when they heard we were tweaking Deathwing. Their consternation was mainly along the lines of "but you already get 2+/5++(3++) scoring troop choices, OMG broken". We are trying to strike a balance between "what would be cool" and "what people will be willing to play against with only slight discussion".

Near army wide special ammo for 5 points a model? Going from tactical to sternguard is 10 points so it doesn't sound as bad as I originally thought. However, army wide that gap adds up quick. On the fluffy side I don't mind giving them special ammo, my Deathwatch Chaplain uses special ammo on his SB and it is a lot of fun. My concern again is giving new toys that are not "conservative". Letting them take MM/HB/LC are all things that codex tactical (3+) marines can do and most everyone agrees that terminators need a lower price for what you get. The only "invention" we were putting in was the Orbital Beacon to counteract not having Ravenwing.

OMG heavy weapon AND a CML on the same model... to me that is putting a couple dozen eggs in one dakka filled basket! The "Furious Barrage" special rule is interesting, but again I am trying not to invent new things. A unit of 5 of those guys would be close to 400 points if I am not mistaken, which doesn't help with the low model count issue...

I would be interested to see how you break down a cent cost wise. For one because I have never thought of how the cost is broken down, but also so that I could potentially cost the grav cannon with more "authority" if it could be shown as a logical breakdown of cost.

@ BrotherofBone
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ninjacommando wrote:
Deathwing terminator
Base 34 points
Power Fist, Storm bolter,
Weapon upgrades (chain fist, TH/SS free)
weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

Up to Two terminators may take the following
-Plasma cannon, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, CML (these keep their Codex cost)


Couple things with this list. You basically let every terminator mix and match weapons so you can have a Plas cannon/SS model. The way it is written currently no one would ever have a PF if a chainfist or TH is free. The 2/5 heavy weapons is an interesting thought for dakka oriented squads. On a modeling note, these changes would require an entire "remodel" of most of the army any given deathwing player had to take advantage of these options. There are many degrees of difference between marking one of your termies with a pipecleaner ring around his head and saying "this guy actually has an MM" and trying to keep track of which models have an Storm Shield/Power Fist/Chainfist/Lightning Claw/Thunderhammer in their non-dakka hand. My alterations only require maybe 5 new models with fairly easy conversions(MM/Gravcannon) to be WYSIWYG on a tabletop, the alterations you speak of would mean remodeling half the army to take advantage of these changes in rules.

I am becoming a big fan of just shaving 10 points off of all terminator models, adding a few heavy weapon choices, making SB Heavy 3 all day long and calling it a day. It keeps the army very close to original codex, provides about 20% more models on the table and brings back weapon versitility we lost in being all Deathwing. Maybe just give the beacon away for free to keep from having potentially 20-30% of our army mishap, hell just make Deathwing Assault only scatter 1d6.

Thoughts?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6340989.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
holymauler wrote:
@ Formosa
I like your idea but I was just trying to adjust instead of invent. If I start inventing it would become hard to get people to play against it without whiping out my spreadsheets of math hammer and a 30 minute discussion about "it isn't broken I swear". Other people I have talked to at the FLGS were very leary when they heard we were tweaking Deathwing. Their consternation was mainly along the lines of "but you already get 2+/5++(3++) scoring troop choices, OMG broken". We are trying to strike a balance between "what would be cool" and "what people will be willing to play against with only slight discussion".

Near army wide special ammo for 5 points a model? Going from tactical to sternguard is 10 points so it doesn't sound as bad as I originally thought. However, army wide that gap adds up quick. On the fluffy side I don't mind giving them special ammo, my Deathwatch Chaplain uses special ammo on his SB and it is a lot of fun. My concern again is giving new toys that are not "conservative". Letting them take MM/HB/LC are all things that codex tactical (3+) marines can do and most everyone agrees that terminators need a lower price for what you get. The only "invention" we were putting in was the Orbital Beacon to counteract not having Ravenwing.

OMG heavy weapon AND a CML on the same model... to me that is putting a couple dozen eggs in one dakka filled basket! The "Furious Barrage" special rule is interesting, but again I am trying not to invent new things. A unit of 5 of those guys would be close to 400 points if I am not mistaken, which doesn't help with the low model count issue...

I would be interested to see how you break down a cent cost wise. For one because I have never thought of how the cost is broken down, but also so that I could potentially cost the grav cannon with more "authority" if it could be shown as a logical breakdown of cost.

@ BrotherofBone
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ninjacommando wrote:
Deathwing terminator
Base 34 points
Power Fist, Storm bolter,
Weapon upgrades (chain fist, TH/SS free)
weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

Up to Two terminators may take the following
-Plasma cannon, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, CML (these keep their Codex cost)


Couple things with this list. You basically let every terminator mix and match weapons so you can have a Plas cannon/SS model. The way it is written currently no one would ever have a PF if a chainfist or TH is free. The 2/5 heavy weapons is an interesting thought for dakka oriented squads. On a modeling note, these changes would require an entire "remodel" of most of the army any given deathwing player had to take advantage of these options. There are many degrees of difference between marking one of your termies with a pipecleaner ring around his head and saying "this guy actually has an MM" and trying to keep track of which models have an Storm Shield/Power Fist/Chainfist/Lightning Claw/Thunderhammer in their non-dakka hand. My alterations only require maybe 5 new models with fairly easy conversions(MM/Gravcannon) to be WYSIWYG on a tabletop, the alterations you speak of would mean remodeling half the army to take advantage of these changes in rules.

I am becoming a big fan of just shaving 10 points off of all terminator models, adding a few heavy weapon choices, making SB Heavy 3 all day long and calling it a day. It keeps the army very close to original codex, provides about 20% more models on the table and brings back weapon versitility we lost in being all Deathwing. Maybe just give the beacon away for free to keep from having potentially 20-30% of our army mishap, hell just make Deathwing Assault only scatter 1d6.

Thoughts?

I'm not being sarcastic at all. People make do with Deathwing in normal games, so why do they need such a massive power up?? They just need a points decrease, and something to make them more tactical.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6341050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6341050.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
holymauler wrote:


Couple things with this list. You basically let every terminator mix and match weapons so you can have a Plas cannon/SS model. The way it is written currently no one would ever have a PF if a chainfist or TH is free. The 2/5 heavy weapons is an interesting thought for dakka oriented squads. On a modeling note, these changes would require an entire "remodel" of most of the army any given deathwing player had to take advantage of these options. There are many degrees of difference between marking one of your termies with a pipecleaner ring around his head and saying "this guy actually has an MM" and trying to keep track of which models have an Storm Shield/Power Fist/Chainfist/Lightning Claw/Thunderhammer in their non-dakka hand. My alterations only require maybe 5 new models with fairly easy conversions(MM/Gravcannon) to be WYSIWYG on a tabletop, the alterations you speak of would mean remodeling half the army to take advantage of these changes in rules.

I am becoming a big fan of just shaving 10 points off of all terminator models, adding a few heavy weapon choices, making SB Heavy 3 all day long and calling it a day. It keeps the army very close to original codex, provides about 20% more models on the table and brings back weapon versitility we lost in being all Deathwing. Maybe just give the beacon away for free to keep from having potentially 20-30% of our army mishap, hell just make Deathwing Assault only scatter 1d6.

Thoughts?


The point of the allowing every Terminator mix and match weapons is because they are Elites of the elites, if you look at pretty much all of the Elite choices from all of the 6th ed codexs, Every units can pretty much mix and match weapons for a purpose, Sternguard can take Combi weapons and still have access to special ammo, Vanguard (no one really uses them) Can be kitted out with any melee weapon they want. if both of those units make up the Bulk of the First Company why the hell don't Terminators mix and match their weapons?

yes you could get a Terminator with a PLasma cannon and a Storm shield. he costs 49 points for that. The storm shield increases his survivability agianst AP 1-2 weapons significantly. while his survivability agianst small arms has remained the same, and at the same time he loses his atr 8 ap 2 attack.

yes everyone could run thunder hammer storm bolter, but whats the point? Thunder hammer + Storm bolter still does the same melee damage and range damage as PF + Storm bolter, are you really going to bother to swap out all of your power fists on your guys for thunder hammers? you don't gain concussion but you no longer have that 3++ save to keep you alive till next round. If you want to model it go ahead.

maybe a person would like to run LC/SS or CF/SS to deal with horde with hidden axes or Vehicle spam armies?

Conversions are easily done with 1 box , the Deathing Command Sqaud, you get a mix of pretty much all weapons (except lighting claws you only get 1 pair, but you can add blades to powerfist knuckles), stormboltersx5/powerfistsx5/Stormshieldsx5/powermaulsx5(easily turned into Thunder hammers)

You can always use Magnets like most people do with Sternguard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6341196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6341196.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing gw has shown us that when it comes to terminators they are inept at making them work, I have been playing dw since it's inception and it has always been an under dog, the only way to resolve this is by going back to the drawing board and starting again, so here is what I propose.

Ignore the da codex entry for dw terminators, ignore all the rules and begin with what you think they are, what role they are supposed to fill in a da army.

Let's all answer these questions first and after we agree, that's when we start thinking of rules.

I will start by saying that in my mind dw terminators are the apex if "cutting the head off the snake", I believe they should excel at mc and ic hunting and that should be there roll on the tt, they should also be the masters of the teleportation strike with bonus's for this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6341390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6341390.page GMT Re:Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
BrotherOfBone wrote:I'm not being sarcastic at all. People make do with Deathwing in normal games, so why do they need such a massive power up?? They just need a points decrease, and something to make them more tactical.

Formusa wrote:I have been playing dw since it's inception and it has always been an under dog, the only way to resolve this is by going back to the drawing board and starting again, so here is what I propose.

It seems that we have competing viewpoints here. BrotherOfBone proposes a quick $10 haircut on price and maybe a few more options while Formusa wants to give DW the three finger salute (ctrl+alt+del=reboot). As I have stated above, I would lean towards the quick and simple for the simple reason of needing to convince others to play against my "homebrewed army". Also, it's quick and simple!
Ninjacommando wrote:Conversions are easily done with 1 box , the Deathing Command Sqaud, you get a mix of pretty much all weapons (except lighting claws you only get 1 pair, but you can add blades to powerfist knuckles), stormboltersx5/powerfistsx5/Stormshieldsx5/powermaulsx5(easily turned into Thunder hammers)

The concern I had on the modeling end is that my friend would not be starting "from the begining" and already has an assembled, well painted and based force. To make the changes you propose would mean he (or anyone else who already has DW) had to buy half a whole new army in order to utilize them.

New and Improved "short list":
Only models in Terminator armor may be included, All Terminator models -10 points, 1d6 scatter when using Deathwing Assault, no autolose for all in "reserve" turn 1 and MM option for 15 points.

Thoughts on the quick and easy version? I would be VERY INTERESTED in comming up with a whole new dex and that will be a fun project for the 14 hour drive to family christmas, but not right now. I would like some sense of "would play against this" or "OMG so OP!" from those of you that have been contributing. It is much appreciated and gives me some confidence that what is being discussed isn't so far out of the rhelm of possibility.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6347534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6347534.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6351644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6351644.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
 Deuce11 wrote:
Somebody said just allow for 2 heavies per 5... That is brilliant and really SHOULD have remained during the codex update. I have 5 extra termy bodies and by god they are gett heavy weapons!


This would not solve what we see as one of the fundimental issues with Deathwing, only having 35 odd models at a normal point level. In fact adding mor eheavy weapons would reduce model count... There is math in some of the higher up posts that shows their firepower compared to 3+ marines and it is rather eye opening.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6353844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6353844.page GMT Friendly rules alteration to Deathwing
holymauler wrote:
 Deuce11 wrote:
Somebody said just allow for 2 heavies per 5... That is brilliant and really SHOULD have remained during the codex update. I have 5 extra termy bodies and by god they are gett heavy weapons!


This would not solve what we see as one of the fundimental issues with Deathwing, only having 35 odd models at a normal point level. In fact adding mor eheavy weapons would reduce model count... There is math in some of the higher up posts that shows their firepower compared to 3+ marines and it is rather eye opening.


Make the second of the same type free like a Grey Hunter special weapon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cataphracti armor from horus heresy provides a 4++ instead of the normal 5++... since the 1st legion is so good at keeping their old toys in working order (plasma and speeders) maybe we could buff their normal deathwing invul to 4++ as well....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6354533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/566936/6354533.page GMT